How Fast is Project Natal?

Xbox Evolved Writes: Natal's lag has been debated heavily since it debuted. Some say it's bad, others claim it isn't so bad. We decided to put it to the test... and after seeing the results we're not surprised that they didn't want to allow cameras into the latest public showing of Project Natal.

[DailyAddict]

This has been pretty noticeable since E3 and at every showing so far. It's no wonder why Microsoft says the first wave of games for it will be family oriented. Hmm....that sounds familiar. Could it be Wii 360? Yip. Much like the Wii, it lacks major precision so at best I wouldn't expect to see any core games support it at all because the lag would get on your nerves in more serious games.

[JokesOnYou]

@ callahan09, Well frankly your comment is a premature assumption at this point, micro just had a great X10 where they showed and talked about some of there upcoming releases, but why do people expect to see final games of Natal so early? E3 is right around the corner, I expect we'll be seeing more games and interesting stuff from Natal, but as I've predicted even months ago, the early stuff still will mostly be casual stuff, Natal is a huge undertaking with the control scheme and I don't expect the very first games to be Natal-controlled Halo Reach quality games, so the point is most of us on this site are not interested in Richochet type games, thats really for a different audience micro is trying to bring in from the wii's success but what most of us who ARE INTERESTED IN NATAL are waiting to see if it will offer any enhancements to the type of games(hardcore) we care about.

@ mastiffchild, "I've heard both systems praised and derided by people on here who nearly all(to a man , virtually)hated motion controls when Wii was the only console really banging that particular drum. People who rubbished the Wii now cling on to things like Natal's proposed menu navigation using gestures as a great thing when, to me, pressing buttons seems both quicker, easier, more natural and something that works way too well to even consider trying to fix!"
-This the exact same stubborn mentatlity and a constant mis-information I see from so many sonyfanboys, Listen I don't know if you've ever read to much of my posts but you're clearly NOT in tune with what MOST of the people looking forward to Natal think. #1 Thi wii is NOT well liked by many who want Natal to impress because even to this day the nintendo themselves hasn't even attempted the type of hardcore experiences WE CARE ABOUT, aside from Metroid I can't think of any really great implementation into a really good game thats on the wii. #2 wii isn't trying to bring in the hardcore demographic with its decidedly lower specs, #3 nintendo themselves have admittedly many times they are NOT trying to compete with sony and micro with hardcore gaming experiences= This is EXACTLY WHY PEOPLE LIKE ME DON'T CARE MUCH FOR THE wii, and ITS ALSO EXACTLY WHY PEOPLE LIKE ME **WANT** TO SEE NATAL DO SOMETHING GREAT FOR HARDCORE GAMES.

Also, you seem to be set in the mindframe that motion control can't enhance games at all. It's funny I remember when ps3 fans were high on the idea of having motion controls in the sixaxis was a big benefit over 360 controller even for multplats. Why is it now that Natal has recieved so much hype that ps followers are so turned off by the idea of making even limited motion control enhancements to games we care about? While you downplay "menu enhancements" as being nothing to be excited about I ask why not? IMO that would be very cool and its telling that you percieve mashing buttons on a controller as "easier and more natural" than something like maybe pointing to a on screen icon or whatever I guess in your opinion would be un-natural.....hopefully you were being sincere in your questions, but YOUR WHOLE POST STINKS OF PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS OF WHAT NATAL WILL BE LIKE, AS IF ITS BEEN OUT FOR A YEAR OR SO AND ALL ITS EVER PRODUCED WAS CASUAL WORKOUT GAMES LIKE THE **wii. Which is funny because we heard so many times to "wait" and be patient for games and stuff like HOME, but when it comes to Natal many fanboys have already decided its a failure....nothing new on n4g. Will they succeed?...At the very least it will bring some casual fun to a limited audience, if so, as I've said a thousand times then I won't care for it and will simply keep enjoying the games I like, if they go beyond that like I'm sure micro/devs will at least try with a few big titles eventually then we'll see how that goes, until then I'll just watch the haters (not referring to you) keep sinning their wheels.

JOY

[headwing45]

I'm sure they will fix this problem, I mean, they were able to fix vista right...right?

[WildArmed]

well MS better have something to prove that they improved the laggy natal project at E3.
Otherwise, I'll have to regretfully skip Natal.

[ASSASSYN 36o]

Lets all be surprised by the natal lag issue...again. This is old news there is lag in natal. A product that is many months away.

[fr0sty]

What ISN'T old news is the fact that there is STILL the SAME amount of lag almost a FULL YEAR later, after all this time they've had to patch it up. Now they're down to mere months before release, and you expect it to magically disappear? They're still showing the same dodgeball demo from E3 2009! It still lags, and still glitches. They've improved the glitching some from when i saw it at e3 though, but the lag is still there just as bad as it was day 1.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Wasn't it the same tech from the last E3?

Either the thing is broken still or maybe MS is playing it cool, keeping Natal in the limelight and working on improving all these complaints and then at E3 show a product that is better.

If it is mostly software like you say then there should be plenty of time to tune it between now and E3 and I imagine they've been doing that ever since the last E3.

I agree let's wait till the product is out.

[morkendo]

seems to me to be the perfect assessory for 4-7 graders to play with.
i cant possibly see anyone over 12 using natal entertaining themselfs slapping and kicking in the air to long.

[Dance]

They still have plenty of time to fix Natal lag issues

[Anon1974]

You're kidding yourself. This issue won't be fixed. We're talking Microsoft here.
The thing about that is, the casuals who this is targeted at won't care. The Wii-mote is terrible and people are lining up to buy those. When you play the Wii you spend 25% of your time losing your pointer on the edge screen and trying to find it again. Ever play a shooter on the Wii, try to shoot something in the upper side of the screen, lose the pointer off the edge and get shot to hell trying to find the pointer again?
Natal isn't meant for gamers or serious games anymore than the Wii is and that's why it might still have a chance, even with these issues.

[CobraKai]

MS has their work cut out for them.

[Obama]

BAM there is lag!

[Cueil]

This has two problems... one the cam is not a 60fps cam and second (if you've read Eurogamers artical about lag you would know) you can't accurately count frames because of the 0 frame mark... you still need a 60fps camera anyway and it needs to be setup at optimal settings to give you even a chance... for example .15 secons is the delay in pushing a button and getting action doing a camera test like this only more accurate... the game? Killzone 2... pretty actiony right? So if Natal has a .12 at it's worse and .08 at it's best and it's still got several months till release I think it's going to be pretty solid for any game at 30fps. Also from what I understand they were using E3 hardware at the London event

[Dev8 ing]

The only reason you'd need a 60 fpsec camera is if the action was too fast for a 30 fps camera to resolve. Clearly that isn't the case because the delay between input and response is 5 frames. The 5 frames at 30 frames per second = 5f/30fpsec = 1/6 sec = 0.167 sec.

How did you come up with the 0.150 sec? If input lag was that bad people would hate gaming. That is almost as bad as what natal was showing.

[megacheak]

I do not think Killzone 2 a bad game, but it has a delay of input 5 - 6 frames. (As told Cueil)

You say - "If input lag was that bad people would hate gaming". But for some reason everyone is impressed by Killzone 2.

And honestly did not want to mention other games and compare competitors' platforms. But where no'll come - everywhere PS3 fans curse all that is connected with the xbox ...

[Sarick]

I assume that a lot of them are 5ms to 10ms in range. The really goods ones are far below 4 ms latency.

With the response lag combined to this screen lag the difference can be amplified significantly. I would assume the average gamer would want to reduce as much latency as possible in their configurations just to have acceptable performance. I assume that if I combine the sum of all latency in a standard home setup it won't be acceptable with this level of lag.

[hesido]

Killzone2's delay is on top of the delay caused by the sixaxis controller, which I'm guessing is only a few miliseconds (2-3??), so that latency is caused by the game software and not the peripheral input latency.

In this video, we cannot exactly know how much lag is caused by the game itself, and how much is caused by the peripheral input latency, but my guess is that, unlike Killzone 2, due to the simple nature of the application, the game delay should be not more than 1-2 frames., so Natal lag would be 3-4 frames. If we played Killzone 2 using natal, we'd certainly have even higher latencies, because it would react after the initial peripheral latency.

BTW, check out the gif I posted in my second comment in the thread, Sony's Wand has latency too..

[OnlyOnN4G]

There is no lag in the arc controller, just watch the below video and you can clearly see his movements are being picked up with 1:1 tracking, no input delay, in fact you can even pause the video whenever he moves the controller and you'll see it's exactly where its suppposed to be on the TV screen, no lag whatsoever, and the TV screen and his arm are in clear view of the camera unlike that gif you posted, where you can't see the tv screen clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[hesido]

Thanks for the heads-up.. That's clearly better than the developer videolog (although the videolog was after E3), it may be a problem with the TV set. Some TV's have ultra high latencies when post-processing are on (e.g. my friend's phillips has more than 10th of a second input latency when you turn on its advanced post-processing effects). I'll analyze that video also. Mind you that we should not be looking at the overlay video, the overlay video is in sync with any latency introduced beforehand.

[Bumpmapping]

ProjectLagtal FLOP!

[Udidntlistenpunk]

Hahaha

Thats like what 3 seconds lag? Thats fking pathetic.

[Bill Gates]

FLOP!!..AHAHAHAHHAHAHHA

[avengers1978]

This is not surprising MS having crap hardware. That has been going on for along time now. Maybe they will only be 50 bucks if they suck this bad.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

LOL droids worked up over the first Natal prototype. You guys do know they will be showing the release build soon don't you?

[we won]

PS3 fanboys are scared in a foaming out the mouth panic.

BTW PSeye films and desplays video at 60fps. I fail to see how that's game related? If sony does pull off 60Fps in game for "true" ark games in game mode, it's because PSeye is doing far less than Natal. And yes Natal uses hardware just like Wii and PS3 yet some how the 360 should get bashed for it? Then you lie about Natal running better with the chip admittedly proving you think Natal is more advanced while bashing it.

MSFT is going to destroy PS3 fanboys this E3 and when they show the retail build of Natal with all of it's games and peripherals, PS3 fanboys will be jumping of bridges after spending weeks looking for Natal articles to troll in.

[fr0sty]

no, not 3 seconds. 0.166 seconds. but, toss in another 50ms lag for online, and whatever lag is already in the game (killzone and gta4 had bad input lag, for instance), and things can start getting laggy.

[Xylophone]

I reckon this is reverse psychology on Microsoft's part, show bad lag at first and than when they debut with say 50% better tracking but it's still laggy, people won't be nearly as disappointed.

[badkolo]

if this lag is present when its released i will skip it all together.

[ironmonkey]

hmmm not even a high graphics game i mean its not even a game, prob not even a big test program and still lagz.. boooo

[The_Zeitgeist]

I knew Natal was going to be garbage. It's like a Wii but with even more gimicky and way more flawed.

[Anonagrog]

I've been led to believe that the Natal kit used in the above clip isn't actually an updated one, but the same unit-type used at e3. This is just assuming that the above clip is from an event similar to the special preview event shown on the gadget show the other week.

[fr0sty]

why the heck would they still show a year old kit when they have a new one? the whole point of showcasing a product in development that you've shown in the past again is to show the progress you've made with it. that isn't happening here, so they either haven't made any at all, or this is it. I'm leaning towards the latter, as the tracking is indeed better than it was before.

Also, those old natal kits had a processor on the camera that handled the data, the new ones (what we're likely seeing here) rely on 360 to crunch all the data for it (eating up 10-15% of it's resources at the same time). So, if they are still showing those old kits, they are blowing smoke up everyone's butts because that isn't what they are going to sell you in a few months!!!

[Anonagrog]

Its more than a few months off, but that's besides the point. Don't protest to me, I'm just informing people that there was a special preview event not so long ago, and that event used the e3 kit. Why would they use the e3 kit at a preview event and then go and show the latest revision somewhere else... doesn't make sense to me unless the clip from the gadget show is months old! Who knows?!

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[GiantEnemyCrab]

fr0sty: If you were there in person what color was Natal? Was the case white or black?

@below: I believe the old Natal is black but the new systems are white.

I thought you were at the event this video was taken at. My bad. I don't see the Natal in this video at all. Unless it is under the tv then it's black or on the ground out of view.

[fr0sty]

There's 2 things wrong with that.

A) If they did show the E3 hardware, they just lied to everyone. This means they decided to pull natal's CPU, and they're still running around showing natal running with the CPU. This means they haven't gotten it up and running on 360's CPU, and therefore you're seeing a product that will be nothing like that which is going to be released in the final product. different hardware, different software... they're blowing smoke up your ass.

B) they obviously haven't made much progress (the show is pretty recent, I know when that even took place) if they still have to show what they were working on a year ago to people. so, again, they're lying to people by saying "here's what it is now (even though it isn't), and it's going to be even better when we strip it down of it's specialized processor and dump the load on the xbox! just wait!"

the accuracy will improve in the fact that it won't glitch up as much, but that says nothing for the amount of time it takes the CPU to put all that data together, or the time it takes that data to get to the CPU in the first place.

And natal was in a black case when I saw it (at e3).

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

I mean, did you see how well Natal was able to track the body. The dude was break dancing and Natal picked it all up!!!

The issue of lag is extremely simple. You can further optimize the software and now that Natal is going to use the 360 for processing, it can throw even more processing power up. Even then:

a) the darn thing isn't released yet

b) whatever they are showing, it isn't the final product yet

c) we are at least half a year away

The issue of better picking up gestures is a much more difficult issue that is already a non-issue!

You guys kill me, because this technology is amazing and with the small amount of lag, I'm amazed. I was concerned it was a lot worse.

[fr0sty]

also folks, just noticed the typos in the vid... please pardon those. It's past midnight and i'm not exactly running on all cylinders right now, so it slipped past me.

[Doletskaya]

Natal redefines the definition of an idiot.

[doG_beLIEfs]

Just like Sony had been doing lately with games like GOW3, keeping quiet and releasing almost nothing till the last few weeks, I believe that Sony is letting MS hype itself up to a point of no return. When Sony really shows off the Gem or whatever its called with games they have been working on....people are in for a pleasant surprise. I Michael Patcher* that they will show games from casual to hardcore in perfect 1to1 control in beautiful HD and pull the rug out from under MS and Natal just like they did with MS's supposed graphical showcases of Reach and Alan Wake when they unleashed Kratos on Gametrailers TV.

I said it the day I saw that Eyetoy....er Natal demo at E3 2009 that Natal is no better than the PSeye for PS3, or the Eyetoy for PS2. Looks like I might be right.

What are you going to do now MS? How will you compete with Kratos? How will you compete with TRUE 1to1 control?

How?

*Michael Patcher (predict)

[D4RkNIKON]

^^ Truth

[Cueil]

Because the people who matter (general public) are not going to spend 300 bucks to play the same way they play their Wii... If Microsoft can pull in the Wii owners or even just the people who want Wiis... they'll run away from the PS3 in terms of sales... They have the hardcore already and those that are left are probably waiting for the consoles to drop to a price they can budget into tight wallets. So the battle is for the Casual market... taking those people and moving them over to the more gamer style will probably be a secondary goal.

[Biggest]

In all fairness to the PSEye, it IS much better than the EyeToy. I own both (don't ask why) and have recently used both (again, don't ask why). The PSEye seems to be high def as far as usb cameras go. I hook it to my PC for video chat and I can get very good resolutions and frames. It also recognizes object is less light than the EyeToy, which can't recognize its own damn lens sometimes. That being said. . . For gaming they suck. Period.

[Dance]

Of course Sony are keeping quite because they have motion control games no games to show

[CPmonkey]

MS are aiming this at non-gamers mainly, sure they may notice the lag but it wont really bother them.

basically MS will market this product a lot, and it will sell to people who aren't hardcore gamers. Much in the same way as certain groups of people bought the Wii cos it was unique and interesting.

Im still interested in seeing what MS do with the Tech though.

[doG_beLIEfs]

How will it possibly be able to do anything other than chug along as fast as a 3-toed Sloth with FOUR players? Not just 4 players but what will happen when Natal picks up someone just walking by?

I cannot wait to see MS fall flat on its face with this garbage that Sony gave up on YEARS ago.

[D4RkNIKON]

Sony learned from their mistakes and are coming back with buttons this time. While MS pretends that they have something new on their hands and ignores the history behind the tech doomed to repeat history. The only difference is, Sony didn't over hype the eye toy so it was a silent fail, MS will fail publicly after all the media attention it already has.

[Dance]

With MS marketing Natal could be the next big thing

[ArcFatalix]

When it was rejected by nintendo.

[Saaking]

Becuase MS needed to show something. They've been failing hard ever since the end of 2007, cutting prices desperately and growing more and more delusional. This is just the next step in their long line of failures.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Desperate... you mean like the PS3 Slim in the hopes of getting out of last place?

[fr0sty]

seems to be working pretty well so far, considering slim has outsold 360 every month since september, and has sold over 7 million units since it launched. That's more than 360 sold in it's entire first year on the market, with NO competition at all!!!

[Tony-A]

Or stripping down the 360 of all it's features and dropping it down to $200 in order to stay ahead?

Or dropping the price of the Elite to $300 right after the PS3 Slim announcement?

[Neo604]

Milking fans is.

[xaviertooth]

they're not telling it will be a laggyfest but video demos shows it so they will release natalplus to combat laginess but they are still finding ways to do it maybe they will delay the launching coz until now the lag isn't resolved yet.

[xaviertooth]

microsoft is tight-lipped but in closed-door meeting, they are confused how sony was able to do 1:1 motion capture now they are blaming each other why they purchased the technology with no gaming potential.

[Dev8 ing]

I would just laugh so hard if Natal plus was the exact same thing as Arc.

[Solbadguy]

Fall 2011

[stonecold1]

on a game called eyeidentify and dont know if its still in development still or it may have fallen of the rader that game looked awsome i hope sony brings this game still out and theres another eyepet 2 game on the way

[Karum]

If they don't get the lag sorted out then Natal will be pure garbage.

HOWEVER!!

The recent Natal showing that Channel 5's The Gadget Show in the UK attended used an old version of the Natal hardware as stated by the bald glasses wearing guy from The Gadget Show, he said that SM told him there was an updated version but it wasn't yet ready to be shown for w/e reason so the lag problem may have already been solved.

Anyway the main interest in Natal for me is menu navigation and getting around the dashboard by waving my hands...that feature will be kinda kick ass

[Dev8 ing]

It might be if 1) there was no lag, because navigation would be slower than with a controller and this would make the device more tedious especially when you just want to get into a game. 2) you weren't using your controller. Consider: you finish your game and want to play another round but you have to put your controller down just to navigate the screens. Then pick the controller back up when you're done navigating to play as apposed to quickly executing the button sequence that will get you playing again on the controller that is already in your hands.

The navigation may be novel at first but it will grow tedious.

[lonix]

Natal will flop harder than me diving from 10 meters ouch!

[chrisulloa]

How cute, you guys are looking at a 2 year old demo. Now, I read an articles stating natal had 100ms input lag. So basically, it's impossible to notice the lag with the human eye.

[Tony-A]

"How cute, you guys are looking at a 2 year old demo"

So this video was out in 2008, huh? Before Natal was even announced?

It was announced 8 months ago, bud.

[Godmars290]

Does not one care that the guy isn't playing the game, just using it to see his moves play out on the screen?

[FernandoMartinez]

I still think Natal is going to be a success and will outsell Sonys motion controller at least at a ratio of 3 to 1. At least in the USA if not everywhere.

There are simple reasons, Microsoft will know how to sell it (it already does, with the huge self-hyping) and casual gamers are stupid in general and will buy anything that is labeled as revolutionary and cool and super mega dandy popular... Even if it is a total gimmick...

[Cueil]

these people can be moved over... converted if you will... to the dark side... before they know it they'll be playing Fable 3 then Halo: Whatever and eventually they'll be in line with the rest of us on day one of the next console release... what an insidious plan muwahahaha... I keed but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't try and ween them over... gamers do tend to spend more money... expect the record attach ratio to go down significantly if Natal is as successful as they hope

[XDF]

"casual gamers are stupid in general and will buy anything that is labeled as revolutionary and cool and super mega dandy popular... Even if it is a total gimmick... "

So, if your Parents, gradparents, and kids want to buy it and think it is cool and fun..are you going to call them stupid?

[Biggest]

Parents and grandparents? Of course. Kids? Just say no.

[FernandoMartinez]

"So, if your Parents, gradparents, and kids want to buy it and think it is cool and fun..are you going to call them stupid?"

My close relatives are smart enough to ask me about my oppinion, but (some) still stupid enough to dissregard it. It happened before with the Wii when my cousin asked me if it was any good, i told her its a gimmick and that she will play it for a few weeks and then she will put it in a closet. It came true, she bought it still and it is now a very efficient dust collector being used once every few months.

[OSIRUSSS]

To all of you that wrongly state that NATAL is a PSeye clone, You fail mightily . Cause my PSeye does NOT lag like this.

[wages of sin]

http://www.destructoid.com/...

[Biggest]

I think the video explains it better. BAM!

[Dev8 ing]

Not really. 1) Destructoid is a reputed xbox fan site and consistently score PS3 games lower than their average on metacritic an 2) they obviously have never met likes of Bungie et al.

[ironmonkey]

natal lagging? haha oh yeaaa true next gen alright the wii has already won the hearts of people already. plus natal looks like an old vcr. i had a vcr like ten yrs ago bc.

[rwallace]

I find it hilarious how folks can make these assumptions when first off, only the E3 hardware is available for public demonstration. The newer equipment is in developer hands, and it works great with minimal to no lag. Secondly, most of these folks are going off of opinions of others and coming up with their own conclusion. Laughable at best to be considered journalism. Having played with the latest build myself, Natal is amazing at this stage of its development and will amaze folks this fall. Folks need to stop being afraid of the technology.

[cyborg6971]

So your some big insider, who knows something we don't. The fact of the matter is we aren't afraid of tech, when the tech works and is good. This is neither. The only ones slopping this crap up are old folks and toddlers. Which group do you preside in?

[garos82]

youd think by now they could have showed the public a bit more than the original e3 demo? i for one am very interested to what natal will be capable of but having seen nothing but smoke and mirror demos am a little sceptical, especially now they have removed the cpu from the device.
so pardon me if i still havent seen something extremely impressive that you claim to have seen

[rwallace]

I had the chance to play with Natal last week at Microsoft in Redmond. It was fantastic. Thats all the detail I am allowed to discuss as the rest is under strict confidentiality. I am not an Insider as you put it, but a Microsoft Xbox MVP and the MVP Summit was held in Seattle last week. So we had a chance to see lots of upcoming things. All I am saying is do not put your faith in these stories of people saying there is lag or they have seen the latest build. They have not.

And yes, thet are directing this at the casual crowd. Natal is NOT replacing the standard gaming contoller. You will not be using Natal to play FPS's any time soon, and I highly doubt that will ever be the case. Today's modern gaming controllers are quite complicated and intimidating to the casual gamer. Natal erases that intimdation.

[Dev8 ing]

Did you not see the video? Every video they have ever shown of Natal shows lag. Why haven't microsoft come out and refuted the lag comments? I tell you they are banking on the fact that casuals don't frequent gaming blogs and so they wont find out Natal has lag until they are sitting at home playing it.

[jalen247]

Not good... :(

[Mizz_mai]

and who are you again....?? oh hi mr greenberg didn't see you there.....heres another one for you torence

[egyptian_diarrhea]

it's still 5 frames more faster than the dualshit. I know for a fact the lag will be less than 0ms , you're going to be still thinking in moving and the character is already responding, that's how mind-blowing it is.

[garos82]

you have too many bubbles for a person with a single account

[devilhunterx]

diarrhea cha cha cha. diarrhea cha cha cha

[mynd]

Isn't 5 full frames at 30fps 0.16 of a second?
I'm confused.

[ludabenza]

To be fair on Microsoft, I think its too early to be judging Natal. It's not out yet. I also think that the extra lag that maybe experienced online, might just be a lower issue if its games are for casual players.

Not too many casual players would really worry too much about playing certain types of games online. They would rather play these types of games offline whenever there's many family and friends around.

But it will be interesting to see how Microsoft deals with this problem.

[dameon77]

The Sony boys have a website to down any thing not Sony, you guys need to give the fanboyisum a break it is very annoying.

[Dance]

Nearly every article on this site is pro sony

[sikbeta]

Acting like Victims Again?

Lets say this is "Good", lag is "OK" and when this problems and casual wii-style games start to flood the x360, both of you will not be affected by that, just the x360 owners...Oh, wait!..

Gamers FTW?

[PirateThom]

Natal is the future.
Natal is a huge innovation.
Natal can't do 1:1 which the Vision Cam on 360 could already do.

[arny]

If i wanted to do this crap I would do it on the Wii

[The Simple Truth]

Jump out!

[ikral]

Well, i hope Natal turns out to be good, we (gamers) cannot lose either way. More games, more creative ideas, more competitiom, and lower prices. Go fight, stupid console makers, we win!!!

[The Milkman]

I'm guessing no one noticed where the Natal was even placed in this entire video... You guys do know if you have it positioned in a bad spot it does effect the tracking.. Jesus think out the box people its not that hard to stop and think before you open your mouth. I believe the Natal is supposed to be placed in front of the screen in the first place. Most of you just want it to fail anyway so you spam biased comments. Me personally I dont want to be jumping around in my room in the first place. I will probably only use it for very few games that dont require so much crazy movement.

[Biggest]

So you're saying that they placed Natal in the wrong spot to make it look exactly like it does every single time we've seen it? Well that's a plus. You can put your Natal anywhere you want and it'll suck just the same.

[SephireX]

Some things are cool about Natal though. My brother was at a presentation given by Peter Molyneux this week at Trinity College, Dublin. Natal was shown and it can detect drawings with perfection. People drew boats and other objects on pieces of paper and Natal picked them up perfectly. I do think it will be useful. As for lag issues, I think they will reduce any lag significantly by the time it is released. If they don't, then they may as well not release it at all. They are trying to compete with the wii so I expect Natal to do just that. If the 360 can't innovate in the way of control, the PS3 will certainly beat it this generation and beat it well because disc size and hardware differences are becoming more apparent and currently the PS3 is on top.

[Wizziokid]

Old tech, they haven't shown the next range of Natal to anyone yet, so this is still E3 model...

[plb]

It's amusing how people judge unfinished projects here. I really don't think MS would release a product in the state of that video

[ReBurn]

You're right. So often there's criticism around here from people judging games based on demos. How bent out of shape were people when GTA 5 was judged harshly based on the Academy demo? Or how bent out of shape do they get when GOW III is judged based on the E3 demo.

Sad. Just sad.

[divideby0]

when MS decided to remove the hardware from Natal, I really had my doubts about how responsive the system will be....all the software tricks in the work CANT equal hardware emulation..MS is great at what they do, software, but hardware you cant deny they are just not good with. Look at all the compression they have been doing with audio and video, now look at the lack of fidelity we have to live with.
I am not saying they cant work out the bugs, but they have tried with software compression vs a hardware solution and undeniable you see they are falling short now

[Sir_Ken_Kutaragi_]

...Does that play every time a ChavBot&ModBot buys a New xBox 360??? ;-D

[AuToFiRE]

nah, i think its everytime they ram a RRoD up their arse

[bjornbear]

we knew this...

didn't know it was that slow though =( well, its good for casual people (don't want to challenge them too much do we ;) give them some time to react!)

[itswar]

could also be the fact that it was shown on a big screen, resulting in input lag.the human eye has 300ms lag, most hd t.v have input lag, some being up to 200ms. and then u finally have online lag , combine all and yes of course your gonna have input lag.the driving game looked very accurate to me.

[Primetimebt]

Well if it fails you guys can still have Milo as a friend.

[phalanx_mark]

the reason I think it lags is because they are trying to stuff too many video feeds down a single usb line. they have to compromise by reducing the refresh rate to 30hz wheareas PsEye is a single feed it doesnt have as much a problem and can manage 120hz at lowest quality.

[tiamat5]

I won't judge the Natal harshly yet but so far as opposed to the Arc it's accuracy is way off. The Arc can write cursive perfectly, pile up blocks, shoot arrows with precision and hit tennis balls.But all everyone keeps talking about fixing is the Natal's lag. What about how well it aims a gun? If you ride a skateboard can it detect your jump or the different heights you jump? Can it tell the different strengths of an action? If I hit a ball with a tennis racket, can it tell the difference between a hard serve or a softer serve? If,like in Heavy Rain, I need to move my hand slower to do something delicate can it tell the difference in speeds? And even if they fix the single player lag what about when you have 2 or more people or are playing online? If a game gets frantic can it really tell which movement is which? How does it know that it's player one's arm that's moving and not player four's.Cmon Microsoft if it's so great let's have some real proof.

[chidori666]

lokks retarded lag tal ( like this guy in this video)

[n4gno]

"we won" (lol) one of the best fanboy in town (probably a ms employee), act like if ps eye does'nt exist...or if the best motion controled, on ps3, does'nt exist.

who is worried if it's not you ? best hardware, best games since two years (and a lot more good exclusives)..already a "natalpseye" and soon a real 1:1 motion control, ps3 gamers don't care about the 360 (they just respond to worried xbox fans in denial, always trying to downplay the good things, and give a ton of hype too poor things)

[ReBurn]

Natal is still in development. What exactly does this prove?

[divideby0]

not much...

[artsaber]

Because even if you tell the straight truth, someone still gets offended. But I personally think, that the decision to remove Natal's processor was a huge mistake. People, the processor in any electronic device is the equivalent to its BRAIN. You'd have lag too if someone removed your brain, think about it. Natal is now using the 360's "Brain" to interpret data.

IMO, it isn't fair to the device, or consumers wanting it. Most of you forget that the original hype around Natal was built upon the processor based prototype. But it must've been cost prohibitive for Microsoft.

I cannot figure for the life of me why not just take a loss on the Natal hardware itself, and make some impressive software for it to recoup some of the money back. Microsoft probably couldn't calculate a viable way to make a LOT of profit that way, and decided to make the device cheaper. But, when they yanked the processor, they also yanked some of the tech and abilities that made the device great in the first place. But the same level of hype remains as if the processor is still inside of it, which IMO, is unfairly setting it up for failure. Not necessarily sales wise, but for individuals who may be expecting more.

I hope for 360 gamers' sake that Natal is the best device it can be, but I am not sure how data transfer via USB, etc. can be performed completely without lag when that data has to be translated at the destination rather than the point of input.

God Bless Gamers.

[Dorwrath]

This hasn't even been released and your judging it. Lets all see once it's released shall we.

Of course you Sony Fanboys will disagree with this, yet if this was Sonys baby you would be saying. "Give it time, Sony will get it right and lets make our judgments on the final release."

I guess this is the sort of stupidity that plagues N4F.

[Biggest]

There is a big difference in what you're trying to compare. Sony takes its time with things and produces a solid product. Microsoft is notorious for rushing unfinished things out the door in hopes of getting a larger market share. Even the things they're known most for (OS) come out far too early with far too many problems. Natal was announced less than a year ago. They should take even more time to get it right. Or rush it out the door to try and take back some of their lost momentum. Which they're going to do anyway.

[Dorwrath]

Thats got nothing to do with it at all. You are trying to justify your fanyboyism.

You have one rule for Sony, and then anyone else we will not hold to those same beliefs.

If you say for example you say for a Sony product "Lets wait and judge on the final release". Then you have to do that with all products.

You fanboys are already acting as this version of Natal is the final release, when it's obvious it isn't.

[nefertis]

LMAO bu bu bu but Natal is the future. Playb3yond

sarcasm

[hill71]

lagtal jump in

[nygamer28]

ok i remember reading in many articles somewhere that the natel demo is E3 tech and that there still working on natel,do you guys think the at every natel "preview demo" there sending them the tech working on now???No and i also believe thats the main reasons were only seeing the dodgeball demo,c'mon its last years tech!!!!!,when natel comes out i expect it to have less lag then this,which will probley be fixed wih an software update.

[Pekka]

Lag could be due to TV lag and Natal is still months away. And remember, even standard wireless controllers alone on both PS3 and 360 have over 60 ms lag excluding any other lag. Most people already experiences about 100 ms input lag and don't even notice it. Wii controller has around 100 ms input lag and with TV input lag has almost same lag as Natal has according to this video.

[artsaber]

It would be very hard to find a HDTV nowadays with more than 8ms worth of delay/lag. That would be pretty much unnoticable. If there is lag, you can definately count the TV out. It probably won't be because of the set... and this set doesn't look too old. There have been lag rumors floating for a while now, I wonder what is at the source of them.

What should bother you more is, that in this demo, there didn't seem to be a whole lot going on around the character in the game, and the character itself was a empty silhouette. This suggests to me that the 360 processor should be pretty relaxed with the game's detail, but lag seems to happen still with the reserved processing amount set aside for Natal.

But who knows, it could be an adjustment tweak needed to sync the time with the software to hardware, and maybe the game software could be adjusted to fix it, we won't know until the device is finished and get here. The software has something to do with the timing as well.

[PimpHandHappy]

the year MS lip synced and got away with it

we all know EVERYthing they showed was being done backstage and pre determined and was like a pop star concert!

Funny thing is
Xbots will never show their face again after the 1st 5 games score below a 5

@wallace
yes we will but can you do yourself a sold... change the word "to" and make it "if"
ok
makes you sound more reasonable and not brainwashed

[rwallace]

Wow, a statement as far from the truth as you can get. I guess we will see when it arrives in November to heavy praise.

[fr0sty]

it'll be praised, by the casual party game crowd who don't know any better. MS themselves have come out and said the first wave of natal games will be "family oriented" and aimed at casuals. So, real gamers won't be singing much praise at all come november from the way they make it sound. they won't have any games to play on it. then when they do... lag.

[Strikepackage Bravo]

on this site care? Natal is for casuals, its nothing we need to be concerned about. I cant care less if it fails or succeeds.

[CARRIERHASARRIVED]

I own a PSeye and in some games it does this too. This is a ridiculous story. A camera like Natal with absolutely no lag is a LOT to ask for considering that the thing actually maps out a skeleton based on your body.

[guerojose]

Even if you want to deny all the obvious evidence of lag, or the circumstantial evidence of them not wanting the public to actually see it yet in a non-controlled setting, and you want to make the argument that it's not finished yet, is bound to get better, etc., you've got a problem. You should still be able to logically explain how it COULD POSSIBLY work. Let's do a simple thought experiment, and write some pseudocode.

The player just moved - the clock starts ticking NOW...:
- gather image data from the cameras
- calculate depth information
- do image processing to separate the player outline from background
- separate player from other people & objects entering the frame (as promised)
- calculate the player's outline, and compare against known body shapes
- apply the virtual skeleton, to determine location & orientation of major limbs, joints
- do the (promised) calculations to determine special conditions like arm-behind-back, etc.
- do all of this for more than one player? (this has been at least suggested)
- now, feed all of this information to the game engine, in some meaningful and usable data stream
- the game engine still has to do it's thing; rendering the user, interpreting what is intended as a steering manoeuvre versus a gas pedal push, etc.
- finally, the player can see on screen what he just did

Now, should you reasonably expect that all of this code can be executed in milliseconds, for every frame, with precision? Especially since they've removed dedicated processing hardware to keep the cost down, and unloaded a lot of this to the system cpu?

Just for comparison, what would the PS3 Arc pseudocode look like?:
- gather image data from the camera
- do the (comparatively simple) image processing to detect the controller's position
- feed the discrete spatial data from the controller's gyros directly into the game engine
- game engine, do your thing

There's a reason why MS is trying to lower expectations, by talking about using Natal for system menus, casual family games, etc. Of course, they still have to simultaneously bang the hype drum, to convince the gullible that this is a huge breakthrough.

Benefit of the doubt I say, but SHOW ME, already.

[jack_burt0n]

Practically its tough to estimate what the hardware has lost and gained since the revisions, is it still using heat to track etc in low light? I dont know. I would imagine the reality for hardcore gaming is headtracking and sixaxis style controller tracking the facial recognition and bodytracking is going to be useful outside of realtime in terms of customisation and games built completely around that aspect. The skeleton tracking is going to be yoga and fitness dominated imo with huge scope. My thoughts on whats in store for gdc.

[xaviertooth]

natal is non-sense.

[badkolo]

well while i said i wont buy this with this lag and that stands I also think that we should wait.

they might be just showing us the older version and keeping the final natal a secret which is very likely..

I do have faith in microsoft and i doubt they will release natal with such lag.

It has been said that ever natal video so far is using the e3 version and that the new version is much more accurate. so i will wait to see what they show at e3 and then decide.

[MonopolyRSV]

Microsoft just doesn't deliver quality hardware. Thought everyone knew that by now.

[rezzah]

maybe they can fix that for when they release it, but did anyone notice the precicion for the arc when it was presented during last year's E3?

[artsaber]

But my current overall view of Natal and Arc is this:

Microsoft is taking a bigger risk with Natal. It is the whole "Minority Report" meets "lets get rid of the controller" rumor thing. It is very risky, and I think Microsoft may have issues meeting the lofty expectations of USERS. Microsoft's concept of Natal may overshadow the hefty cost needed to create it how they originally intended. It seems like pressure from Sony's Arc MAY have had something to do with the removal of the processor. Microsoft has great expectations for Natal, but has to worry about COST and how it will be competative with the cost of ARC.

Microsoft could try to just market it as a different device altogether, offering a deeper experience than regular motion controllers... but in the end, the general public may not care... they may just see it as Microsoft's motion controller costs $120, and Sony's cost just $50, etc.(prices are theoretical speculation of course).

But I think this is where the main issue lies with Natal.

Could Microsoft make Natal like their original concept dreamed of? YES
Is it costly and perhaps too much of a risk? YES

This is my theory on removing the processor. MS is trying to keep Natal's price closer to the ARC as possible, and don't want to overdevelop the device, then have it cost too much, and the thanks they get is having the public view Natal as a overpriced motion controller.

Natal could be marked as a new intelligence in gaming tech, but that hope may have went with the original specs of old. Will Natal still be good, probably so, but the processor sharing may cause issues in the future when people want games that push the 360 to its limits, and have Natal at the same time. It is a classic case of, you can't have your cake and eat it too. you can't push the console to its bounds when Natal is parasiting off the processor from startup.

Sony seems to have played it safe with the ARC. It seems to be the WiimotePlus with improvements. The look and feel is already familiar with people, especially those who enjoy waggle games. The ARC "apparently" does not borrow from the PS3 where it will place a limiter on the processor. I think Sony is trying to bring high definition to the type games that the Wii has... which to me, is a very welcomed idea. I imagine Metroid Prime 3: Corruption with PS3 style graphics. how about a lightsaber based game... a No More Heroes HD for PS3. That would be nice.

I hope people can agree to disagree and remain respectful when talking about these issues. If the Arc is copying, then Natal is copying also. Everyone copies something, or borrows ideas that WORK for improvement sake. That argument can be held all the way down to researching patents for each company. You may be surprised to find out which ideas were whose first, but who decided to produce them to the market first in a different way was someone else. Like Sony or not, one thing they do have is an azzload of patents. Its like a damn library (bet they have a patent for wedgie-proof undies).

[jack_burt0n]

Dont be misled by Kingslayers crap, If you are positive about something talk about it, talk about the possibilities your hopes for it. Dont make stupid remarks about the competition.

He is a true HATER.

[2cents]

Just ask these sien-ticians! lol. Boy I sure do love detailed professional analysis...

But jokes aside. I want natal, but if the lag is that noticeable on launch I dont really see how MS can avoid the gaming community ripping them a new one.

Lets see what happens when the final product launches. Boy oh boy MS your gonna get your asses handed to you if this is the final product.

Do the thing justice!

[artsaber]

I know what you are trying to do. But there is no need to worry. No hulking amount of fanboys will change the development outcome of Natal and Arc. We will just have to wait and see what these companies will bring us.

Level headed people wil enjoy the devices the most. They are meant to be compliments to gaming, not miracles. I treat these devices with the same respect I had for Fable2. Much was promised and overpromised, but I kept a level minded approach. I expected it to be nothing more than an improvement to Fable1, and if it turned out to be more, then all the better. This is how I enjoyed the hell out of that game despite the dog not being the most advanced AI since alien technology. None of it mattered to me, I gleefully enjoyed Fable2.

I encourage people to not buy into all this hype crap, it is only meant to drive sells, and sometimes it misleads consumers as a byproduct. All we need to worry about is:

1) Do these devices do what they intended? and
2) Do they do them well?
3) Are the games/software made for them worth a damn?

If they meet these requirements, then fine by me. But people need to realize that Natal and Arc are not two like products. Sony has the Eye(and it is very cheap now), they don't need Arc to focus on anything but the controls, and I speculate because of that focus it will be very accurate, and the demos suggest that.

Natal should be fine, but the overpromise and people's lofty expectations have more a chance of diminishing Natal's reputation than the hardware itself IMO. I expected natal to be PS3 Eye with motionplus, and a controller's brain in 3D space, etc. if you can imagine such a thing. But the removal of the processor may have the negative effect that keeps coming out in rumor reports, etc. The transfer of data from Natal to the processor's dedicated area of the 360, may be just enough to cause the compounded milliseconds worth of delay to make it visible. It's unfair to Natal because it can't do the calculation processes itself, it is unfair to the 360 because it needs time to receive the data, do the calculations, and produce the image onscreen.

In our wildest dreams, I imagine if the 360 had a cell processor in it, Natal would be alien tech... imagine how fast that thing would compute Natal's calculations. I forsee someone trying to make that PS3 to Natal hack happen later on.

But enjoy whatever you choose to support, make your own educated decisions, and not on someone else's say so, but through an observed experience. No other human's opinion equals a sum greater than our own... buy what you want, try to enjoy it, and game like a madman/woman.

EDIT: @omegaheat - I didn't know there was an argument, there is a video presented as proof of the claim. I can visibly see what the person is claiming, despite the poor video quality. But that does not completely prove the case for me. There are several variables that can affect the performance of hardware. Was the processor tasked by heat for being on for 10 hours straight from idiots wanting to demo Natal back to back to back, etc. If this was the case, none of us would probably experience this issue because we wouldn't possess the stamina or discipline to run a Natal to 360 session that long without a break. These things are unknown, and this does not offer proof of "normal" Natal behavior, therefore I cannot vouch for this being "consistent" with Natal behavior. But be warned, this is not the first claim of Natal behaving this way. I will wait until reports of final builds have surfaced to draw my conclusion.

Also, Sony delayed Arc's release, even though the tech demos were great. This means they coulda found an issue that was not public...I say GOOD. Find the problems and fix them versus releasing early with issues. Lets hope both techs turn out fine, but if we tell the truth regarding these products it is not necessarily a diss or troll session. We would be wise to inform ourselves and make purchases based off informed decisions instead of hype.

[2cents]

I had nearly lost all faith in this forum. Hats off to the both of you for having such an interesting and honest debate.

For the first time I have enjoyed reading the comments more than the article.

[guerojose]

"Also, Sony delayed Arc's release, even though the tech demos were great. This means they coulda found an issue that was not public"

That's not the only possibility, of course. Here are a few others:

- They are still trying to get the form factor right for multiple types of games, price point, etc.
- They know that most public attention & sales come in the fall, as opposed to the spring.
- They decided to go for a bigger impact from more software available at launch.

[omegaheat]

I don't see the point in this guy's argument. Alot of people have had a preview of the Natal demo and have walked away very impressed with the technology. I really don't think that Microsoft could have possibly persuaded such a large audience to say positive things about the Natal. That's thinking too naively. When videogame developers program any game's movements, they are all pre-programmed to perform a certain action when pressing a command button. For example, whenever I get a payback kill off an opponent in Modern Warfare2, there have been times that I have said to myself " I wish I could have given that guy the 'middle finger' right after I've killed him so that I could view it in the replay Kill Cam. Though it would be cool, it's just not possible to do this in any game because you're only constrained to perform the commands that are pre-programmed. You people talk about lag as if it has never been an issue with the Wii. Just play Wii boxing for 3 minutes and you'll soon realize that it's a complete waste of time to through lightning fast jabs or hooks because the motion detector will only detect a minimal number of the punches. Literally, you could lose a match to a five year old, who knows nothing about pugilism. Which brings my point to this article being more about some flamewar starter who wants the Natal to fail for some illegitimate reason before most of the public actually gets a hands-on experience. What I saw in that video was a game that was about smacking balls back at a wall to see how many points could be racked up. Instead I saw a guy b-boy dancing and then having his movements translated to the screen. Mind you, I don't think the developers of the game, pre-programmed any of those moves. I think they wanted the player to smack and kick the ball in an expected fashion. I've seen the demo several times, and each time I never saw any lag when the player played the game the way it was meant to be played. In other words, the demo recognizes the smacks and kicks much faster than other movents such as hand stands or spins. That was really impressive tech. There's no point in denying it.

[ATi_Elite]

Natal sucks you know it I know it they know it. I'm really hoping Natal is a smoke screen for a new 360 system (xbox720)

whoa!! did you see the smoke come out the bulls nose right before Kratos shoved his chain sword up his throat!! Awesome. Sorry watching the GOW3 video again.

anyway they took the Cpu out of Natal and that my friend was a bad move. i can't believe 360 fanboys are so supportive of this crap. You Bots should be telling Micro$uck to form a First party game studio and make some real exclusives instead of "timed crap".

Whoa!! Look at the size of Cronos. Do you see how the lighting in real time is reflecting of of Kratos shoulder armour. Gow 3 is going to be EPIC.

where was I oh NAtal, yeh this doesn't look good at all. I will wait for the final product but it's basically a Wii

Whoa! that was sweat how Kratos ripped of Hades chest. Yeh Natal is just too laggy and there is nothing revolutionary about it. Microsoft messed up by announcing high expectations with that whole "Minority Report" statement but they won't be able to deliver.

In the end "There will only be Chaos" I think Kratos said it best.

[Solotov]

Well, unless Sony has a analog stick (Wii Nunchuk), the WAND will be a flop

[dustgavin]

Well, at least the arc is 1:1 compared to the hot mess that is natal.

[ImmortalLegend]

I don't really think Microsoft is stupid enough to use this for hardcore games. It will probably be only for casual games and is meant to appeal to the casual gamer, not hardcore.

[TheGameFoxJTV]

Disclaimer: 360 fanboys avert your eyes. And PS3 fanboys go screw yourselves.

Actual Comment: Natal looks like garbage.

[1800GETOWNED]

PS3 "wand" or "arc" ftw...natal is just crap.

[Crowsnevermore]

Project Natal isn't aimed at gamers who play FPS and other fast action games, its aimed at the family usage and for fun little games that everyone can play. they are bringing in a new market in the same way that the Wii did. a 5 frames per second lag might seem off if you are looking at it from an outsiders point of few, but theres a slight lag in the time it takes for us to see something and react in most cases. i think those extra 5 frames gives us a chance to notice the oncoming object and react in the desired time for that particular game. hell, its not even out yet, its still techincally in the works. they could still upgrade it at some point

[Kos-Mos]

It`s aimed at blind americans that buys everything that`s on the telly.
Amen

[WiiPS3beats360]

till killzone 3 comes out which I heard will support 3D and ARC so xbots will be crying and there xboxes will simultaneously RRoD

[UltimateSin]

Unfortunately nowhere does it say or tell you what build this is. It could be a build from this month or the one that we say at E3, so we can only assume.

[quarkist]

This is too lagy ... I'm disappointed ... why to build up too much hype??????????

[My_Outer_Heaven]

Honestly even for xbox fans are they really gunna buy into this crap?

I dought hard core games give a crap about this!

Have you played God of war 3 demo yet?

Holy s**t is all I gotta say about it. Absolutely awesome demo!

[Justin_bristoe]

fail

[My_Outer_Heaven]

Lagormighty, lagarithic, lagtastic, lagatious...

360 sucks PS3 dominates..

GOW3 DEMO play it in full hd.. woop!

[counselorterry]

Seriously..who is natal for? I for one just don't get it. I don't want to jump around constantly to play a game. If we all did then the original NES's Track and Field would have been the best selling game ever. That or Dance dance Revolution. I see aspects of it that could be sweet like using it for the dashboard, but actual use in games? I'll keep my controller please!

[kickerz]

Hey guys, well well well, as a huge xbox 360 and natal fan, watching this video kinda sucked a bit :( and reading all of your comments kinda sucked a bit too.. All you Ps3 fanboys seem SO happy that Natal is glitchy at this stage.LIKE 200 NEGATIVE COMMENTS!!! mostly saying that Natal is POO. And yes im a fanboy but im still excited to see how ps3 wand goes...

SHOULDN'T WE AS GAMERS, (and yes Im an older gamer now, started off with my sega master system and 486 pc) WELCOME NEW TECHNOLOGY, NEW WAYS TO PLAY GAMES? Its not like mircosoft are gona ditch the controller. some games will use natal, others wont.and some will use both controller and natal..

I really hope they fix this...because Natal looks like alot of fun (especially what Johnny Chung Lee is doing with head-tracking)and im sure microsoft realises that if this thing lags too much not many people will buy it..
well thats my 2 bob. back to playing bayonetta for me ^_^

[maniacf40]

lol

[threesixty4li4e]

Don't worry guys. They will fix it! It will be revolutionary for gaming, and put take 360 to a whole other level above the other consoles.

The PS3 wand is gonna fail though. LMAO just thinking about that thing.

NATAL FTW!!!!

[bjornbear]

*hint: its not the turtle....*

[Raoh]

one of the reasons the game they run as a demo works so well (mind you this is guessing) is hot corners..

it can recognize when your body part is in a general area and react as it would assume you would..
ball coming in on the top left, stretch your arm to that area natal software will meet you half way. flail your arms wildly in every direction and it will seem accurate as you will hit the balls at least 75%, it being a game you will assume the 25% of failure is you..

this is not a negative against natal its just an observation and a thought on how microsoft is making it work..

look at facts to help my argument (ok maybe not facts but observations)

wii.. needed the motion plus for its inferioner led light tech

sony wand.. technically in the middle, a step above wii but a step below gesture technology.. better than the wii in accuracy but not as thrilling as a minority report environment

MS - Gesture Technology (i say gesture technology becuase ms has natal, the company sony and ms are leasing tech from also is releasing their own motion tech for everyone, apple has patented their own version for use with their apple stores and possible the ipad, and a few tv's have stated they will be adding mini cameras in the corners of their tv's for motion tech without a console)

wii - first out the gate, great head start but weak hardware and software

sony - they are going for reliable hardware.. hopefully they will see they need software too and not just assume a third party will make it great and deliver the tools themselves to the devs to perfect.. they are a hardware company and they want a working controller that will work more than anything, just like their other products, they are a hardware company. hell they released their already working camera a long time ago, it will be the same camera to be used with their controller, gran turismo 5 was announced and demonstrated head tracking with the playstation eye early on

ms - is a software company.. they went ahead with a faulty chip and said they would fix it with software, no need for large capacity discs we can give you high compression software, lets give the devs software to make 360 games.. we'll let the customers deal with the hardware headaches until we can iron those issues out and lastly, lets remove the chip from natal, why? it will make it cheaper and we can run software where hardware was once in place

but i urge people to not really believe this will be a controllerless lifestyle always.. even the wii works best with attachments.. i can control racing with the wiimote but attaching a wiimote to a wheel works better.. i can take a plate and control the steering with natal but i would rather sit and have a pedal than stand and lean forward, leaning forward and back is not natural driving.. i think it should be a combination of sorts..

for instance lets use forza and gran turismo, sure i can use my hands to steer and lean or use pedals or controller for acceleration, but how else cann you make this exciting using motion controls? ahh stretch your hands out to your top right of the screen, this brings down music options, rear view mirror options, track etc options..

incorporating all the tech is the way to go... motion controls were cool for the first few weeks with the wii but i quickly sat my azz down and then eventually went back to my ps3 and 360

[Raoh]

here is a toshiba tech demo
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

canesta
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

hitachi demo
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

i was looking for another video where someone did photoshop editing with motion gestures, they were using a glove with it, similar to the VR in heavy rain

[LedZeppelin]

"If I say to you tomorrow,
Take my hand child come with me,
It's to a castle I will take you,
Where what's to be they say will be.

Catch the wind see us spin,
Sail away leave the day,
Way up high in the sky.
But the wind won't blow,
You really shouldn't go,
It only goes to show.
That you will be mine,
By taking our time.

And if you say to me tomorrow,
Oh what fun it all would be,
Then what's to stop us pretty baby,
But what is and what should never be."

- Led Zeppelin

[John Marston]

Fail more Microsoft LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[cpt_kaos]

LOL Blooody Hell you think Micro$haft would have learnt something about releasing dodgy hardware after the 360 fiasco.

[commodore64]

When we hear reports (unconfirmed and on unfinished hardware) that
Natal uses NO controller and it exhibits 5 frame lag on input, the ps3 troll userbase assembles and bashes NATAL as a failure.

I honestly don't understand, because in the very next breath, they will hold up KZ2 as an unmatched exclusive, yet demonstrably, KZ2 has 6frames input lag - and that's with a controller!
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

So which is it gonna be guys?

IF you bash NATAL for lag, you had better start bashing KZ2 lag, too.
On the other hand, you could laud NATAL as having approximately the same input lag as the flagship ps3 shooter kz2.

Whatever you decide, please be consistent.

[Cyrax_87]

KZ2 doesn't have lag, GG wanted KZ2 to have a "weighty feel" to the controls, it's the same as Killzone 1. Not everyone wants a CoD clone.

[John Marston]

Boy you're an ignorant and narrow-minded xbot. Every one knows KZ2's "input lag" (which by the way was intentional to give the game a sense of realism SOMETHING THE 360 LACKS) was patched in the first update. You should really do some homework before attempting to prove a worthless point son

[commodore64]

@ cyrax

KZ2 does have lag.
It has 6 frames of input lag, regardless of whether you are moving to overcome inertia or whether you are firing an near-instantaneous bullet
It is explained in the article, which I linked to.

If KZ2 lag is intentional, then why is there the same lag when you are firing? That question was also raised in the article.
It makes very little sense for the developer to claim that the lag simulates 'momentum' and 'inertia', when the same lag should NOT apply to the firing of a bullet.

In one fell swoop, I have destroyed that argument, right there.

@ john marston

My friend, please don't call me ignorant nor narrow-minded, as surely those descriptions apply more to yourself, in this case.

My argument was constructed solely on the VERY recent findings of KZ2 LAG, as described in the article, which I linked to.

It really behooves both of you, and all the other ignorant sheep who don't believe what i am saying, to actually read the article and verify for yourselves, that the 'KZ2 6 second input lag' problem is not at all fixed, despite the patch.

I am quite certain, you guys didn't do your homework, yet you accused me of doing exactly that.

Disappointing.
Very disappointing.

Now, go and read the article.
Educate yourselves, then get back to me.

[hazelamy]

did they have to use that music?