DF: Face-Off: Ninja Gaiden 2 vs. Sigma 2

Digital Foundry contributor MazingerDUDE compare Ninja Gaiden 2 vs Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2:

"How do you turn a game design and engine specifically designed for the architectural strengths of one console, and make it work on a competing platform with an entirely different range of technological plus and minus points? Maybe Tecmo has the answer with Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2."

[andron]

It shows the strong and weak points for both versions of this great game.

Teqmo did a great job of porting it thankfully...

[Ravage27]

Very informative and well-explained,particularly the part about the advantages of the PS3 RSX specialized pixel shaders(more operations per clock) versus the flexibility of the 360 unified shader set up.

Essentially while have unified shaders is generally a good thing, there is a trade off. The trade off is that each pipeline isn't as good as a dedicated pipeline. So what you gain in flexibility you lose in outright ability on specific tasks.

That's definitely how GG managed to achieve those spectacular lighting in Killzone 2 :)

[Max Power]

they didn't port the game, the remade it, that is how they got around the exclusivity deal that was in place with Microsoft. Plus they already had the sigma engine from the first one.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

Yeah, the Sigma engine was completely new and re-worked to match the next generation. The Xbox 360 version is built on top of the aging original Ninja Gaiden engine.

I thinnk any NG fan as stated in this great article points out, get both versions! Playing through it I noticed that there were content outright cut out of the PS3 version. There are also changes to the game mechanic and bosses causing the game to be played slightly different. The blood in the 360 version also gives you a somewhat more satisfying feeling to lop those limbs off!!!

If you are a fan, get both!!!

[MNicholas]

Perfect reflection of the theoretical strengths of each GPU in isolation.

The writer was astute enough to explain the advantages and disadvantages of unified shaders and to outline the benefit of having discrete pixel shader processors.

I hope seeing this information in an article helps fanboys on both sides of the spectrum see things more clearly.

[Redempteur]

Finally someone who know what he is talking about ...

backed by screen and videos to prove his statement ..
N4G need more articles like this one ..instead off "xxx thinks that xxx is going to fail in the next xxx months "

[Bumpmapping]

Great read.

[callahan09]

"The original 360 code doesn't hold back in the amount of cut-off limbs that pile up, while on PS3 those same appendages disappear almost instantly. Left-behind blood stains on the scenery are also noticeably pared down."

I played both games simultaneously, meaning I played through a room and then switched the input on my TV over to the other console and played through the same room, then after all the enemies were dead I would switch back and forth and compare the two versions and both versions had an equal amount of blood, gore, and severed limbs on the floor. I didn't notice the limbs disappearing on the PS3 version as they claim they do.

[callahan09]

Disagree, eh? Show me evidence if you think I'm wrong. If you've got both versions, do what I did and play them and compare. The PS3 version is gory as hell and it's quite frankly the better version of the game. It plays better, it looks better, and it offers more content.

[jimbone]

I didn't disagree and I really don't care, but really you didn't put up any "Proof" either.

[callahan09]

Proof may be the wrong word. At least an argument. If someone doesn't agree, at least come out and say so and why, make your claim.

[jimbone]

I agree with that, and like I said I wasn't at all trying to bash, but I do feel you. I just got 5 (phantom) disagree's for a completely honest and truthful commit, that my friend is astounding.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

I do NOT know what you saw as you didn't put out any actual proof I can see, but frankly speaking I played through both and can tell you that there are far more limbs and especially blood on the ground after each fight.

[darkequitus]

I find these coding tricks these engineers use fascinating. Go technical-ish read.

Edit. With the unified shaders of the 360, what TN could have done is reduce the number of characters on screen (to that of the PS3)and spend more on visual detail if the ywere thinking the other way around.

Either way both consoles get a good game, with a bit of swing and round about.

[raztad]

What is lacking in that description is the role of The Cell. W/o a proper use of PS3's cpu highly parallel arch the real power of the PS3 remains untapped.

[jimbone]

In technical terms can you tell me in a percentage of how much of the cell's power they did/didn't use on this game, because I read they had to build it from the ground up for PS3 just because of how different the architecture are. Unless of course you are just on "SDF" duty on an article that said the PS3 version has the edge anyway. Also I was wondering how much you make coding for Sony games since you know more than all these developers do?

[raztad]

How should I know what percentage was used? Did you read the article? did you read my comment? I said that the information about The Cell usage is MISSING.

Curiously enough, just in the right pane there is an article explaining how The Cell was stressed under UC2. It's a good read. It explains very well the importance of The Cell in the rendering process and helping out the RSX.

I know for certain, that GoW3 is using a similar tech. Sony Sata Monica devels were in GDC 09 explaining how to maximize SPUs usage.

[jimbone]

No I still don't see in the article were it says they didn't use the cell at all, I guess its not in my version.

I just read it a 3rd time to make sure I didn't miss anything, and the only thing close they said about it at all was "The Sigma team's solution to these problems is quite ingenious. It simply rebuilt the whole game completely from scratch with its own engine, "remixing" Ninja Gaiden 2 to play more to the strengths of the PS3 hardware."

and then

"Overall, it's intriguing to see just how Team Ninja went about the business of crafting what is essentially the same game, but producing different versions that favor the technological advantages of both platforms."
Nether of which said the Cell wasn't used at all.
How ever I will listen to both sides of a debate, so if you cut and paste the part of the article were they did state that the cell wasn't used at all then I will retract my statements and admit I was wrong.
EDIT: LOL, so then I read your commit again and realized I was saying the same thing you are. There is nothing of how the Cell is used. Sorry man, I had misunderstood you. My Bad.

[Jamescagney]

Tbh raztad I'm sure they were looking at the best ways to utilise the ps3, I doubt they finished porting it thinking 'Damn, what about the The Cell? We didn't use it!'

EDIT:These are professional programmers who know how to make a game, are you saying you know better?

[raztad]

Ok. I guess I missworded my first comment. I meant that in the ARTICLE there is not information about how The Cell was used. I wasnt saying that TN didnt use The Cell. However the lack of references to how they stressed the PS3 cpus make me think that TN didnt exploit the SPUS or the writer has no information about it, but it's all good, TN did an awesome work with Sigma 2, things only can get better from now on. At least they have a fully PS3 tailored engine in place plus the know-how.

[Eddie20101]

Are the two of you just bone heads? or is your reading comprehension very poor. raztad did not say they did not use the Cell processor, he said or what he meant is that Digital Foundry did not mention the use of the cell proccessor or how they used it in the article.

How the two of you got that he was saying he new how to program or even that he could program better than the developer is beyond me.

I own and have played the 360 version and also have played the PS3 version, the PS3 version is better than the Xbox 360 version. It has better textures, (some have been redesigned) much better lighting, no screen taring and better resolution along with much more content. The PS3 version is the more balanced of two versions.
It is also a better playing game on the PS3.

[MNicholas]

the engine is clearly tailored to the strengths of the GPU and shows no sign of the kinds of effects enabled by the Cell such as extreme polygon counts, advanced DOF, advanced motion blur, etc...

For some perspective, it took Naughty Dog 4 years to get where they are with using the Cell to accelerate the GPU. They've effectively doubled performance. Guerrila Games have probably reached that point by now as well in their development of Killzone 3. Maybe Polyphony Digital too ... we'll find out soon.

Anyone else?

[raztad]

Sony Santa Monica is another powerhouse, GoW3 will show the latest in Cell BA coding. If I undertand correctly, Sony's first/second party devels share their experiences/tech so I expect UC2/KZ2 visuals to be improved in upcoming games.

That said, it's good to see that Tecmo was able to reach such good visuals in Sigma 2 only using the RSX, thats a very fine coding there.

[jimbone]

@ Eddie20101
I agree, I didn't understand what he meant at first, but to be fair you must be just as boneheaded, and poor at comprehension as we were to not notice my edit and follow up response where I did read the commit again and say that we were both trying to say the same thing, then told him sorry about my mistake, 5 hours before your commit. Maybe you should do what I did and read all the commits again and then see if you are man enough to admit you were wrong like i did. (Just a suggestion)

@ MNicholas. Any one else for what? This discussion was about whether or not they used the Cell at all (in NGS2), and I do believe they did. I never said one word about ND or UC2, but I do understand that is a fanboy answer for everything here at N4G. Just to be clear we where talking about the NGS2 article not any of the sh!t you posted about. The conclusion that we all seemed to have come to is that in this article they didn't say one way or the other, but it being rebuilt (or coded) for the PS3 from the ground up I would assume that they did use it in some way, to think other wise IMO is sort of stupid.

[Ravage27]

clearly shows that PS3 has absolutely NO problems pushing polygons. Team Ninja clearly didn't utilize the Cell much though i still applaud them for their efforts.

Anyway, i'll take true HD resolution and stable/playable framerates over 1(or 2) more enemies any day. Given a chance to redo the 360 version, i'm pretty sure TN would have capped the enemy count to improve the framerates too, it's a no brainer

[Raider69]

fanboys realy suck,purple effect is not the same has gore!

[Sunny_D]

? If you actually read the article, it saids what each version was going after... 360: People and blood. PS3: Lihting and detail.

[Raider69]

@5.1 im just stating that the 360 has more gore an dismenberment than the PS3 version,contrary to some states that dont acknowledge this fact!I have played the two version and like some i dont need glasses to see the obvious on this subject.

[mastiffchild]

To me, though, NG has NEVER been about the gore(not til Itagaki's arrivel anyway with this gen)so toning it down did NOT in any way make Sigma inferior. If anything I found the OTT level of the spurting claret in NG2(allied to the useless camera which they now fixed for Sigma and should patch in for 360 gamers,tbh)something that sometimes made accurate gameplay harder when I couldn't quite see what was going on in scene. IMO it just became, much like the moveavle breasts this time around, a pointless gimmick and the real mistake they made with NGS2 is, imho, the silly purple mist they decided was "stylish" when it plainly makes no sense whatsoever.

That said it doesn't actually obscure the game like the gore really did(for me-at times ,natch, not all the time)at busy times onscreen in NG2 and is just an unneeded and sully add on.

Thing is both versions are good enough NG experiences and the extra quality and content just about make up for the wait PS3 ownes had to endure and though Tecmo really should patch the 360 camera there's nothing actually wrong with the 360 game either.

[ULTIMATE_REVENGE]

I don't seem to get this article, in every screen shot where the writer the says the 360 version looks better it turns out the PS3 version looks better?

Is he on drugs or what?.

Anyway's this game looks like a first gen PS2 game on both consoles and I've never really had any interest in this game ever since it released on the XBOX 1, and Judging from the video in this article the gameplay is incredibly boring and lame.

[Sitdown]

could you please post some pictures of these 1st gen PS2 games for comparison.

[Model]

its eurolamer...they will be cursed if they dont say something positive about 360

[raztad]

It's not Eurolamer is Digital Foundry.

I agree with Ultimate about the article stating in every comparison how superior was the xbox but at the end the definitive version to get is Sigma 2, because it got much better lightning and more detail.

The author is in such a hurry to flatter the xbox version that he quickly forgets (after mentioning in a very casual way at the begining) that the xbox version runs at sub-HD resolutions while the PS3 is 720p.

[stb]

this were a flame-bite, this is why i love the most this site over d
others... having both console...doesnt cost say that d ps3 version is way better. just the lacking of the gore in sigma was the shame but, an´way loving it, though the xbox one was good, and still, but those extra just beat the crp out of the box vers.

[stb]

Again, you will notice that is was a fair comparition, detailing what could be say as the weak and strong characteristic that both game have, he didnt state that the xbox one was better, he just explained that it does move more polygons aside of sigma that is more smooth than gaiden 2, in few words, ps3 version goes more smoothly through the entirely gameplay cus it is more limited in regard to the polygons etc, though it does look far better, not afecting the game for the polygons drops., while the xbox one move more enemy, could be said more epic fight time, but screw it, the extra in the ps3 version just made this game a sure bet for the sigma two being far better.

[cliffbo]

it was not fair as he did not mention that the 360 cannot use all of its shaders at once as it has to split them between vertex and pixel shaders.
the ps3 has dedicated vertex and pixel shaders and the cell is used to calculate geometry and is also capable of other graphic tasks aswell.
also there are over 500 objects on screen at once in UC2 and it draws over 2 MILLION POLYGONS PER FRAME more than any 360 game ever.

now tell me the DF guy knows anything!

[gamingisnotacrime]

Great article

[infekt]

PS3's processors dominate. End of story.

[NecrumSlavery]

God of War 3 is my gorefest. So I don't care either way.

But still I'm glad they did a great job bringing from 360 to PS3.

[4Sh0w]

So Sigma was built from the ground up on ps3? Very interesting comparison.

[BoneMagnus]

Just make sure you play this game - regardless of which console you own!

[AriesFury]

it's basically the same game, just with some added stuff for the PS3

[CobraKai]

I would rather have a game running in HD with better lighting than sub-hd anyday.

[kewlkat007]

I'll have the GORY one please...

[kewlkat007]

Doh!

[Sackdude]

Image 1(360) Last gen

Image 2(PS3) Next gen

[XmnMetal]

They didn't even talk about the 3.2 GB install for the game. ( perhaps for load times/ steam textures etc)

[XmnMetal]

they don't even talk about the 3.2GB install. (perhaps for loadtimes / stream textures etc.)

[Gago]

Sigma 2 is totally different game

[Darrius Cole]

Since no one else has noticed this I will mention it.

The most important thing in this article is that the game was designed with the Xbox 360 in mind. Notice I said "DESIGNED", as opposed to "CODED". The sub-HD resolutions, the amount of enemies on screens, the dismemberments (and thus the obliterations), the lay-out of the cut-scenes, and the levels were all designed with the 360 in mind.

The artistic components of the game were designed for 360 and designed to maximize the 360 hardware's output. Even if they coded the game completely with a different engine, they are going to lose something because artistic elements were designed around capability that the new hardware does not have. Had they started with the new hardware, they would have looked at its advantages and designed artistic elements around those advantages and they would have ended up with a different game.

So Sigma 2 has fewer enemies, because it is a port. Team Ninja compensates by making those enemies tougher. But 10 enemies with 10 health points is not the same experience as 20 enemies with 5 health points, even though they both add up to 100. Thus the game is different.

[Gago]

have you even played the game?

the enemies are wayyyyy easier,

also the enemies in NGS2 actually have shadows, unlike NG2

[junk-3d]

Great read! A lot of work went it to this comparison. Very interesting how they played to the specific consoles strengths. Both versions have a $hit ton of tearing when the maximum number of characters are on the screen.