Supporting VR is "a tremendous burden" claims Treyarch

CALL OF DUTY Black Ops 3's multiplayer producer tells us about the struggles of working with VR, why PS4 Neo and Project Scorpio won't solve everything and coping with motion sickness.

[wonderfulmonkeyman]

Again, as I've said before, the current form of VR isn't the future of gaming.
It isn't even a proper innovation.

It's a gimmick, and a necessary stepping-stone towards the true future of this kind of tech in gaming: Full dive synaptic sync VR.
Think Sword Art Online, but without all the angst and "we're gonna die in here" drama.XD

[ApocalypseShadow]

Looks like someone was just born yesterday. Technology doesn't just jump ahead overnight. It's a road traveled. My first systems were pong and Atari. That road led to systems like the colecovision, NES, Genesis, turbographx,Saturn,PS1,Dreamca st, Xbox,PS3 all the way to where we are now.

Developers had to work at making it work. Treyarch wants it easy and think more power is the answer. It isn't. More power doesn't change the fact that you have to build a game from the ground up to support the platform. Any platform. Not try and make existing games VR games.

Secondly, he uses incomplete games like RE7 to support his theory. If the game was done and had problems, I'd understand. But to judge early work that has many more months of development time tells me he doesn't know anything at all. Or that gamers were using the right analog stick which Capcom should have disabled.

As for gimmick...

**VR is really exciting**...**the technology is fantastic**... **it is something the guys at Treyarch are very excited about**

Yeah... That really sounds like they think VR is a gimmick. They're just saying that they have to study it more and come up with solutions and make it fun. Making something fast doesn't make something fun like he says. Making something FUN makes a game FUN. And VR is a future gameplay option to have that has to start sometime.

If you wait for technology to be perfect to release, it will never be released because there is always something you can improve on it.

[wonderfulmonkeyman]

"It is something the guys at Treyarch are very excited about"

"Supporting VR is a tremendous burden claims Treyarch."

Gee, a tremendous burden.
Wonder what that sounds like?
Oh yeah; A GIMMICK, if we're following your reasoning.
They can say they're "excited" all they like, but being excited about a burden doesn't make it any less of a burden.
There were other third parties making similar claims about the game pad.
Their "excitement" only lasted as long as it took for their multiplat sales to drop off a cliff.
I doubt VR will be any different, aside from being an easy sell to graphics whores.

Anyone out there can make as large of a rich gamer's fanclub for VR as they like; a gimmick is a gimmick, and compared to the future, that's all this is.
It's also coming with a lot of issues that will be plain inconvenient to gamers that are so used to traditional methods that they can't even handle a small screen on a controller, let alone a helmet strapped to their head for hours at a time, giving them eye strain, motion sickness, headaches, and accumulating sweat, bad smells, dead skin, and who-knows-what-else over time.
And don't even get me started on the pricing.

I'm fairly certain that most people are going to prefer the console versions of games like RE7.

[ApocalypseShadow]

bur·den
ˈbərdn/Submit
noun
1.
a load, especially a heavy one.
synonyms: load, weight, cargo, freight
"they shouldered their burdens"

That means they need to get to work making it work. Developers complained last gen that multiple cores were hard to program on. Sure it is. But the ones who put their head down and got to work made awesome games. Now, cellphones, tablets, consoles, PCs, etc are multi core. They learned how and now that knowledge is a benefit. An asset.

And for your information, all products sold, all of them, are sold on a gimmick. You would be fooling yourself if you didn't think so. The word gimmick is poorly used by gamers on this site. Videogames are a gimmick. Multiple buttons over the single button Atari controller is a gimmick. Rumble is a gimmick. But you seem to accept all them no problem right?

Graphics has nothing to do with VR. Not in the way you think it does. a game could look as simple as having geometric shapes, and still be immersive. Like virtual racing from Sega or star fox from Nintendo.

Making games in 2D over simple Atari graphics came with issues. Making the first 3D games like on Saturn, N64 and PS1 came with issues. Developers solved those issues. You're just making excuses.

And all that nonsense you speak about when it comes from people getting motion sickness, sweaty, eye strain, carpal tunnel, bad smells, dead skin, etc come from games already with FPS motion sickness, long play sessions, not showering... Blah blah blah. More excuses.

**Don't let me get started on the pricing.**

How much was PS4, Xbox one and WiiU again? How much are new games?... Just more excuses from you. You don't have to like VR. But don't make excuses and what ifs. Present facts. Not baseless opinions. It's fun. It's early. And developers will find a way just as they have always done since pong and Atari.

[wonderfulmonkeyman]

First off, "Burden" also has the meaning of "something oppressive or worrisome,"
Don't cherry-pick a meaning specifically tied to physical objects of a weight that makes them a burden, which makes no sense in the context of the article, then pretend you've hit upon what they meant.
They're calling it a burden because it's damned burdensome to develop for, not because the things are heavy.XD
It's difficult to develop for, and those same complaints are things echoed during the times devs were trying, and failing, to do games as well as Nintendo's done them on the Wii U, not to mention stuff back on the PS3 when the cell processor made it hard for devs, or when it make it literally impossible to provide proper backwards compatibility with the PS3 inside of the PS4.

Also, FYI, I'm fully aware that all of these are gimmicks.
But I, like most NORMAL gamers, rate each gimmick as good or bad depending on my own personal preferences of how useful it will be, what advantages and disadvantages it has, whether it has potential in its longevity, etc etc, just as anyone else with a mind worth using does.
I don't think VR is a very useful gimmick. That's all there is to it.
It plays to the graphics whores by being sold alongside a pair of mid-gen upgrades that boast of their higher graphical capabilities, but even if they improve the tech to the point where you're seamlessly playing Horizon Zero Dawn in first person in it, in the end all it is, is a glorified first person camera helmet.
One that actually DOES pose some physical risks to consumers in the short and long term, depending on the person.
Even more-so than TV's do.

Speaking of which...

"And all that nonsense you speak about when it comes from people getting motion sickness, sweaty, eye strain, carpal tunnel, bad smells, dead skin, etc come from games already with FPS motion sickness, long play sessions, not showering... Blah blah blah. More excuses."

Most of those things are legitimate concerns with something like this, although adding in showering is ridiculous and clearly portrays your desperation to downplay these concerns as nothing more than raving, when it's been shown that stuff like eye strain, headaches, motion sickness, and other things are indeed connected to the use of VR, sometimes in the short term but most often in the long.

The fact that you're playing anything I say to that point off as "more excuses" or "nonsense" [which is ironic given your "showering" comment], however, just shows that you aren't listening, and likely haven't been from the start.

And since I don't wish to continue trying to reason with a brick wall, I'd say we're done here.
Come back when you can legitimately refute my points. instead of passing off the ones you can't contest as mere "excuses" or "nonsense", while claiming I don't have any facts presented and acting as if your opinions are the "real facts".

Actually, you know what? Come back regardless of your preparedness, if you feel like it, or don't. Whatever floats your boat.
Even if you're not done, I am.
This has gotten out of hand, thanks to you, and I won't be a party to it any longer.
I've got games to play, and no more time to waste on you.

[amiga-man]

I find the VR naysayers amusing, they presume the VR of today is the VR of tomorrow, are there issues? of course, but just like any new technology, those issues will be better understood and solutions found.

Every tech major company (and I mean every) is now heavily invested in VR, they see it's massive potential and are eager to grab a piece of the VR pie, anylysts are predicting VR to become a $100 billion industry in just a few years, an industry which will encompass far more than gaming, those calling it a gimmick, really need to wake up and see whats happening in the real world.

[darx]

VR will go bust. It will be niche and never be main stream.

[andibandit]

"Secondly, he uses incomplete games like RE7 to support his theory. If the game was done and had problems, I'd understand. But to judge early work that has many more months of development time tells me he doesn't know anything at all. Or that gamers were using the right analog stick which Capcom should have disabled."

There's nothing theoretical about some people getting motion sickness. I'm no expert but im pretty sure one of the contributing components to motionsickness would be the amount and pace of movement. Having played both COD Series and RE series, I feel I can say that movement in RE is way slower than COD and I fully understand his point of view on that subject.

[uth11]

yes, if we held early videogames to the same standards people are demanding from early VR, nobody would be gaming today

"Where are da 12+ hour AAA gamez? What da hell is a pac man? Looks like indie shit!"

[pompombrum]

An outspoken Nintendo fan calling something out as a gimmick... the irony. I haven't actually tried VR myself yet so shouldn't really be poking fun at you but still can't help but find it amusing.

[Errorist76]

As I already wrote in my own post below,

Of course development will always continue and after years of drought concerning technological innovations suddenly everyone has woken up in the face of all the new possibilities opening up. There are already headphones in development (Samsung Entrim 4D) which feature electrodes on a sponge which stimulate your brain in such a way your body truly feels motion too. Soon, the sickness problem will be a problem if the past.

Other developments like Sony Future Labs prototype Project N feature in-ear open ear earphones, which means you wear ear-bud-like headphones but still are able to hear your environment, which is going to be incredible for mixed- or social-VR-reality experiences.

There's an exciting future ahead boys and girls!

[Tallpine]

Treyarch sound lazy. They lack creative thought and innovation probably because their job is to create the same thing over and over with tweaks here and there in different settings.

[rainslacker]

I'm sure for Treyarch, making anything more than a standard COD game would be burdensome and time consuming, because they'd have to actually put more effort into it, and not just repeat the same formula.

That being said, in terms of the side effects, you know there are people that get that with regular games as well too right? Or even just regular TV watching....and it's becoming more of a thing with new 4K TV's which remove the motion blur which compensates for the lowered frame rate on standard TV/Movie media.

Anyhow, in terms of motion sickness, unless someone is really prone to such things, it goes away once you get used to it. The brain is a remarkable thing, and can adapt to more outside influences than most people will give it credit for.

Eye strain also happens through any number of stimuluses, and in particular any kind of game where people tend to focus too long on one thing. That's why moderation is important. Headaches are just a side effect of the eye strain, or people being too tense for too long. Any immersive environment can cause that due to the fact people get tense during tense situations and their muscles tighten up. Kind of why when we watch a horror flick, we're tense, then sigh with relief when things calm down.

That's not a fault of the technology, rather the game design, and it's subjective on if it's a fault or not since some things should be tense in the proper context. But ultimately, it's the player who has to moderate themselves.

As far as the other things...sounds more like a personal hygiene problem. Can't blame VR makers for people not bathing. There's no reason a VR solution would make one sweat unless they are active. VR units don't produce smells on their own, and most bad smells come from the bacteria that lives on one's skin, and dead skin doesn't make much sense unless someone is prone to such things, because skin does not die by being covered up for a short period of time. Maybe if it's an extended period and there is a lot of aggravation on the affected area. Skin is another remarkable part of the body. Did you know it's the largest organ on the human body?

We're a ways off from full synaptic stimulation. If you're holding out for that...well you'll probably be dead before it comes around to the mainstream. VR took almost 40 years to get here, and I for one don't think scientist have enough understanding of the human brain to trust them to stimulate my synapses. Holographic immersive technologies are likely to come long before brain stimulation.

[Movefasta1993]

I haven't tried it,but i do not like the idea of putting a helmet on while i am gaming.Maybe 1 day,that killer game will come out,that will make me buy one.But i am happy the way i game right now.

[rainslacker]

Personally, I wouldn't want to use it in every kind of game. Action games, like RE7 for instance, wouldn't really be that appealing to me, because the movement of one's avatar is isolated from the movement of their head, and I feel that could be disjointing to experience, and would only make sense while standing for full 360 degree movement...which isn't really my cup of tea.

OTOH, things like a racing game, or a space fighter game, could work well, because they're seated environments, and you are already limited in your movements due to one's sitting position in a car or cockpit. The ability to be able to see such an environment in a more realistic way, with a full field of depth to be able to determine where one is in relation to their environment, is something that is really appealing to me. One of my biggest gripes about racing games, which I do love, is that I never really had a sense of where I was on the track when it came to turns, because the periphery was never there, so it became more about learning the right place based on the 2D graphics to know when to start the turn.

Some other games could probably work well for me too. An interactive story type game with limited character movement, Maybe an on-rails shooter, etc. Other than that, I think I'd like to try it out for the "big-picture" mode, because too many games today use HUDS or text that is too small or not enough contrast for me to make out, even on a quality big screen TV. MGSV in particular was bad about this.

[xtheblackparade]

Ofcourse a CoD dev would complain about extra work xD

[sergons]

We should read between the lines, they ancient source game engine from 1999 can't handle VR.

[mixelon]

Burden or opportunity? Personally I dont like playing something this fast paced (and on foot) in VR.. Team Fortress 2 etc are pretty nauseating on the oculus.. To me. I'd welcome studios trying to make super fast twitchy games work nicely in it though.. I'm not sure how they'd pull it off. The amount you have to spin and stuff in CoD - it doesn't strike me as the ideal game for this tech. It'd be like playing inside a salad spinner.

A slower, more methodical shooter would work better (Killzone?) They need to bring back the Mechwarrior series for VR too, for sure.

[Errorist76]

Solutions for this problem are already in development. Google Samsung Entrim 4D.

[rainslacker]

It's probably more because in COD you spin faster than you would normally. The screen rotates at a rather fast rate. If you yourself spun that quickly, that often, without being in a game, you'd probably have the same motion sickness. People don't really just spin like that anyhow. They more twist themselves before replanting their feet. First the head, then the waist, then the feet. Even though there is movement beyond that in the game itself, it's not typically how people move normally.

But the isolation of the characters movement from the position of one's head position is always going to be a problem until they can make something that allows for full movement in a space, and that isn't likely to be practical for the average home user. There is that one stand thing which is supposed to do that kind of thing, but not sure how well it works, and I believe it's pretty expensive, and don't think it's utilized in the games we'd be playing anyways.

[Errorist76]

There are already headphones in development (Samsung Entrim 4D) which feature electrodes on a sponge which stimulate your brain in such a way your body truly feels motion too. The sickness problem soon will be a problem of the past.

Other developments like Sony Future Labs prototype Project N feature in-ear open ear earphones, which means you wear ear-bud-like headphones but still are able to hear your environment, which is going to be incredible for mixed- or social-reality experiences.

There's an exciting future ahead boys and girls!

[mixelon]

I don't think that particular tech would help with something like cod.. if you feel like you're spinning you'll still feel like you're spinning, haha.

Simulating real motion just means you'll have more realistic motion sickness in unrealistically twitchy games. XD

[Errorist76]

it's true. Games in VR will have to be more realistic in a way. New approaches are needed in all areas.

[PressPlayBro]

"We haven't had to put anyone work into our games since COD: World at War, we just kept making the same game over and over and idiots kept buying them. We were making so much money for minimal work, it was great. Now we actually have to do work and it sucks. We're lazy AF, just like EA and Ubisoft. I guess we can always just release games half-finished like they do, that way we don't have to do as much. I mean, who actually wants to do work to make money? I know we don't." - Treyarch

[Gamist2dot0]

Ahaha, I might have to agree with that. I think MW3 was mostly built on rehashed levels from MW, MW2, and WAW. Just some adjustments and placements of the AI here and there, re-skin some of the maps and you've got MW3.
For VR, they're probably waiting for one dev to prove that VR can be a success in FPS with sales; then Treyarch will be all over it.

[PressPlayBro]

Lol

[Vames]

People are still defending this VR fad? Even Sony made it clear that VR is best used for short experiences. That's a huge red flag right there.

[mixelon]

I've got more hours of gameplay out of my dk2 than I have from my WiiU or Vita, and it's still going strong. A lot of games work best in short bursts.. but there are games that work best in long sittings too, using VR.. You just have to be particular with game choice.

[Pongwater]

Don't support it then, unless it's your job and in that case shut up and do it.

[raymantalk1]

yes i`m sure it will be a burden when they make loads of money from it, /s