Deus Ex Creator: Uncharted, TWD and Heavy Rain Fail to Make the Most of Video Game Medium

Chris Mawson writes: "Veteran developer Warren Spector has encouraged designers to create more games than encourage player agency and ‘collaborative storytelling’, while singling out the likes of Uncharted, Heavy Rain and Telltale’s The Walking Dead for failing to make the most of the medium."

[ZaWarudo]

Oh dear...

[Genuine-User]

I respectfully disagree with him.

[pivotplease]

I disrespectfully disagree. Uncharted is supposed to be a cinematic, linear experience just like a film. Heavy Rain is pretty open-ended in many ways and really pushed the medium imo. TWD is mostly just a watered down Heavy Rain that is really linear and gives you more of an illusion of choice.

[turdburgler1080]

I got to say he's fairly spot on. Folks around here just don't like having their artworks negatively critiqued. That's all this is really. He still goes on to say he likes the games but wishes everything wasn't on rails basically. I think a lot of popular series play it safe because they are sacred cash cow. On a side note I'm amazed no one has made a Phil spector joke. Dat hair;-)

[NukaCola]

No game can make full use of the medium. There needs to be limitations. That's the story and direction the developers take us. If a game did everything it would take 100 years to make.

[UserNameIsNotTaken]

I disagree with him as well... I don't think that he knows Uncharted well enough to put it there with Heavy Rain and TWD... it's a totally different game.. you don't have dialogue choices in Uncharted like those other games.. he's basically talking about the illusion of choice which is in Uncharted, non-existent.. because like I said above.. uncharted is a different genre.
So of course uncharted will give you the same ending because it's (again) a different game that doesn't have choices and stuff.

[frostypants]

I liked Deux Ex, but it was hardly above the criticisms he's making.

[christian hour]

While I love those games, some of my all time favourites, I would agree they don't make the most that the medium has to offer. Although throwing uncharted in with TWD and Heavy rain seems quite odd.

Very few games have truly taken advantage of the medium of interactive art/entertainment. I would argue Deus Ex 1 and 2 (I havent played any since) also do not take full advantage of the medium.

A game like Journey, now theres something taking full advantage of the medium. There are others of course.

Also this title is VERY misleading, he gives all the games mentioned in the title incredible praise, just mentions that video games can and have been so much more.

They took a candid discussion that was probably just a single topic in the conversation, and blew it in to a news worthy attention grabbing click bait piece.

[JackStraw]

The whiny video game culture has spilled over to developers now. GREAT!

[OB1Biker]

lol funny because true bubble

[GamingIVfun]

His Mickey Mouse games were the epitome of game play and had a good story too......not, both were pretty boring, and I'm a Disney fanatic. I know he helped to make some great games in the past but they were guilty of the same things he has problems with in Uncharted games, which in my opinion have great Story and game play and technically out way his past efforts. If games could be so much more, why isn't he helping to make them?

When he says something negative about games and gaming, he involves Sony games somehow, not the first time.

[medman]

I like Warren Spector, but I think he's lost the plot.....

[Christopher]

There's an assumption here that every future game as to make the most of the medium.

First, let me point out that 99% of games out there don't make the most of the video game medium as he outlines. Call of Duty, Destny, and pretty much any game where the story is set and the design is linear-designed. For the most part, it's only RPGs that do what he wants.

But, on top of that, if a person wants to create a genre-specific game, such as one focused on storytelling and aimed at people who previously played those type of games, then they're not going to suddenly change gears and evolve gameplay to fit his model of waht is making the most of the medium. Why? Because people want those games.

People didn't pick up TWD Season 2 because they expected to see something more completely different, but because they liked what they had in the first and wanted a new story in the same setting. And, those games would be entirely different if you change how they play. And would that be beneficial overall? Who knows. Would people who likes the first like the follow up? That's extremely hard to tell, but I can say that if they liked the first enough then they would likely pick up the second if it felt familiar but told a different story and offered new options in choice.

[The_BlackHeart__]

He thinks he can do better than Naughty Dog, Quantic Dream or Tell Tale when it comes to story telling? Prove it, and then you will earn the right to open your mouth.

[showtimefolks]

he has a right to his opinion but this is what makes gamers different. some of us may like open world games, others may like story driven liner game and some love the point and click adventures etc,,,

personally heavy rain to me was an amazing experience, when you had to cut your own finger or when she had to dance for that guy. those were situations where i generally felt bad and or awkward and that's hard to achieve in gaming

uncharted 2 is the perfect action adventure game and because of uncharted's success we got a reboot for tomb raider

[Big_Game_Hunters]

I think its time we stop using the word "video games" for everything just because its on a console.

Heavy rain, walking dead, beyond two souls, until dawn, wolf among us. They are not video games. They are a form of interactive entertainment, Closer to reading a comic book or watching a movie than actually playing a game. No idea why he said uncharted though.

Also obligatory "David cage makes B movies" comment. Srsly though, i get that there is a market for interactive story games, but how does david cage still have a job. He doesn't make good stories, his work is hollywood teen flick tier.

[Paytaa]

...but I love Heavy Rain and Beyond.

OT: I like Deus Ex but this guy is wrong. Especially by throwing Uncharted in the mix.

[b163o1]

David Cage is probably one of the best developers in industry. He's games are like no other, and are experiences that everyone should enjoy. Indigo prophecies was a Cult classic, Heavy Rain is a Masterpiece, Beyond 2 Souls was OK(IMO). But he's track record is better them most, considering all his games a new IP's. Most developers keep making the same game over and over again. His a breath of fresh air in our industry, and I expect his new game to be great...

[Ragthorn]

Just a quick note, which Deus Ex game did you play? He doesn't have a hand in making Human Revolution and Mankind Divided if you played those because he made Deus Ex 1. I will be honest, I do not like David Cage's games. I don't feel they are designed well, but that is just my opinion. This guy makes very valid points, but that doesn't mean that I don't like Uncharted and The Walking Dead. He makes a point in how they are basically scripts that we follow because it is true in that they are directed experiences. Telltale's games have the "illusion of choice" because your choices only have changes during the middles of the games and such. The absolute final conclusion is always the same. That doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the game though.

[Antifan]

Know the definition of video games before making that statement, because Interactive Entertainment = Video games. So there you go, TWD, BTS, HR are video games.
It's nothing like a comic book or movie because the reader or watcher doesn't have control over the narrative or play a part in it.
Interactive entertainment represents all video games. They are one and the same.

[Big_Game_Hunters]

Video games are a form of interactive entertainment, not the other way around. Being interactive entertainment doesn't automatically make it a game.

[wellard]

Think of it this way, all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

[christian hour]

I've been campaigning for this for a while.

The term "video game" is too limiting to waht is actually possible with the medium. Interactive Digital Art/Entertainment is much more encompassing to the varying experiences you can deliver with the medium (the term digital is essential, as interactive entertainment could easily mean sports, or reading etc).

When people say games like TWD and Heavy Rain "aren't video games" it's because they have a very narrow view on the medium, and that is partly due to the term we use for the medium, "video games" or "computer games" or whatever you want to call it.

[christian hour]

If you're going to disagree with my opinion, you could at least have the decency to counteract with your own, maybe get some constructive debate going on in here?

All a silent disagree tells me at this point is that you are happy with the medium being restricted to a narrow limited field, rather than grow and expand to a multitude of incredible experience that go beyond moving a person or vehicle that shoots/fights/races things.

[DrJones]

I agree with you. N4G is filled with conservative geeks who can't see anything beyond their narrow field of view.

[B1uBurneR]

Uncharted ... is the odd ball.. in that sentence. Movie potential type game or movie style?

[Darkwatchman]

He seems a little...I can't describe it. Bitter, maybe? Slightly. I read his quotes and the way he comes off describing each game, he does make valid points, but at the same time, he's taking it too far. "It's a better story than I'll ever tell, but it's not a player story".

If it's a better story than you'll ever tell, then why are you so quick to single out these games???? It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Player agency certainly is important and is one of the reasons I am looking forward to Mankind Divided, but I don't think that level of player agency needs to be in every story driven game ever. Different kinds of experiences for different people and different moods and different effects. Variety, people. Relish it.

[Timesplitter14]

Even though TWD and Heavy Rain have been some of my favorite games in recent years, I understand what he's talking about, and i kiiiiinda agree. Player agency is what makes games really shine.

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about:
An on-rails car chase scene in an Uncharted game for example is infinitely less fun interesting than ending up having a real car chase with other actual real players that want you dead in a game like DayZ.

In the Uncharted example, you know this happened because it was already planned for you, and everyone will experience the exact same thing. However, in the DayZ example, you know this car chase is something that's ACTUALLY happening to you. It's not just scripted. It makes all the difference

[pivotplease]

Both types of experiences can be enjoyable. Nothing about the idea of dynamic events makes it wholly superior to scripted events. There is more room for polish and literary value with a script. You get a better narrative usually. Dynamic allows for more originality and freedom on the other hand. They are two different genres and calling one bad or inferior is just ignorant.

It's like when David Cage talks about moving the industry forward like his preferred way is an evolution. In reality there are many ways gaming is evolving. It runs in parallel lines; it doesn't all converge. ND pushes forward gaming in it's own way as does Quantic Dream. This guy's criticism is the same as saying he doesn't like reading novels because they don't give you enough agency.

[CrowbaitBob]

Hopefully every game fails to "make the most" of the medium. I'd hate to think there's no potential for improvement and innovation in future games.

[DrJones]

Then when will the games ever shine?

[SlightlyRetarted]

I love how there are people who say it's set in stone what games are. In a way i think gaming is in it's childs shoes and i like to think gaming is evolving into different branches. There are games games, cinematic games and new branch will be VR games. I love gameplay first games like Bayonetta, i love games like Uncharted and The Walking Dead that let you kick back and just go with the flow, and i'm more than ready to see what VR can bring to the table for horror games as an example.

[Timesplitter14]

Yeah, Regardless of what games are/should be, the only thing that ultimately matters is if you've gotten fun out of it in the end.

That's why I always think it's ridiculous when people call MGS and Heavy Rain "movie games" as if that automatically made them less great. Yes, they ARE movie games, and they are better than a lot of "game games" too.

However, part of me also feels that games that allow you to forge your own path have the highest "fun potential" of all, for the reasons I explained in my post above. There's no feeling like that feeling of accomplishment and excitement you get after you've overcome the odds in a situation where you knew the outcome wasn't already planned for you in advance.

I guess what I'm really trying to say with all this seemingly contradicting stuff is: fun things are fun

[Roccetarius]

Thankfully there are not a lot of them, and i think i agree with Warren on this. Games should not look up to being movies, because the whole point of them standing out, is that the player is in control of what happens.

Shorter cutscenes are fine inbetween, but you also pointed out examples that go to the extreme. David Cage is more of a movie producer than a game creator, and it shows he's not left his past behind.

[fluxmulder]

Right. This is the same guy who said that Lollipop Chainsaw shouldn't have been made.

[theLastPlayers]

People, Most of you lack of knowledge for videogames, what Warren Said is 100% True and i agree with him.
Most of People commenting Here are in denail and dont want To accept the True about videogames Not being videogames anymore.
Storydriving Games Kill the Sense of playing videogames, games suffer from being too much Storydriving, games are too limited you Just follow Point A to Point B Its just a straight line. Games like Twd and Heavy Rain are Just Pre made choises They Make you think that the possibility is infinite in fact all you do is follow a line followed by other Lines.

Games used to be different, Developers gives us a world and we Gamers build the story theres no need to follow a straight line.

I Hope you understand what i wrote, think wisely before commenting or downvote.

[Imalwaysright]

"Developers gives us a world and we Gamers build the story"

That's exactly how I felt when I played Far Cry 3. Sure the game still has its story but because the world you're playing in is so random and you never know what will happen when you're exploring it, the game allowed me to, in a sense, create my own stories. That's why I absolutely love that game.

[theLastPlayers]

Pal, Who downvote us probably thinks that brain is optional and doesnt want a proper discussion. They choises the cheap and easy Way "downvote" and They like to be in denial. These people live in a parallel universe where videogames are movies and movies Are videogames, breaking news you are in this world where Videogames Must be videogames and movies are movies, maybe i am in a parallel world without noticing It.

[P_Bomb]

I'd have to disagree. For me Far Cry 3 was a one-and-done. I platinumed it and saw no reason to spend any more time in that world whatsoever. It's random? that can also lead to excruciating boredom waiting for something to happen that never will. Especially after I've already picked the world clean and have no desire to count seashells without a narrative.

[The_BlackHeart__]

Or maybe, just maybe, you are the one in denial and you are being down-voted so that you can get a reality check. Maybe.

[DrJones]

Learn english.

[Artemus]

And he's 100% right.

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

How so? How can a player create the story? He is basically shitting on Uncharted for having a story the player can't create and I can't really think of a game that does allow this. Unless he thinks a game like Destiny is what should be considered perfect, a game with hardly any story(It's biggest negative).

[DrJones]

LittleBigPlanet anyone?

[DrJones]

Disagrees are invalid. You can create your own stories and games in LittleBigPlanet3. People have no idea of the possibilities and only people who have a superficial understanding of the game would disagree. God what a underrated game that is..... I could almost weep.

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

So if a game does not allow me to make a game then it is a bad game?

LittleBigPlanet 3 is not underrated at all. I pre-ordered it because I was expecting a game better than the first which in my opinion was a good game. LBP3 was the complete opposite with bugs and glitches everywhere and broken online servers at launch and even months after launch it ran below 30fps. It has a 5 or less hour story mode and the create mode is so overly complicated only someone who can dedicate a large amount of time trying to learn it will be able to make anything good. I think the game deserves a 6/10 and the original deserves a 8/10. I sold my copy but kept the free plush toy it came with.

[Yui_Suzumiya]

Bitter because Epic Mickey bombed?

[Relientk77]

I think Naughty Dog would like a word with you

[The_BlackHeart__]

Naughty Dog will be like: Warren who?

[Ragthorn]

I just want to point out that this person is a very influential game designer. Deus Ex 1 (not Human Revolution) is one of the pioneers of and popularized open-ended mission design and led the evolution for open-ended gameplay (basically, multiple ways to solve quests and missions in games). I am biased to say that the first Deus Ex game is MY favourite video game of all time, and I agree with a lot of his points. He makes a good point when talking about Uncharted, Heavy Rain, and TWD being basically "scripts" that we follow when we play along, but he even says that they are good stories and such, just not stories the player made. That's where I divert though, as I find these games to be very enjoyable as well, and is what it really comes down these days. Was it compelling or fun? This is a man that I have a lot of respect for, and I agree with him on many terms. Let's not forget the fantastic games like Thief and System Shock, for which he had a hand in making, which all (including Deus Ex) had incredible game design.

[kenwonobi]

To be fair I agree in part on Heavy rain. It was improved upon by Until Dawn showing us a better way to make that type of game. However he is talking about really good games.

[aquaticDonut]

He's not wrong. Keep in mind that he isn't saying they're not good games, he actually praises them in the article. He's only saying that gaming as a whole could do things better by allowing for more player agency. To give you an example of what he's talking about allow me to recount a moment from Dishonored. In the second mission, I found myself wandering down an alley when I noticed a shadow move at the corner of the screen. Panicking, I blinked back quickly and looked up to see something moving on a balcony. So I snuck up on the rooftops and through an open window to see that 3 men were standing at various points seemingly waiting to ambush me. Recognizing them from the prologue, I used an item which allowed me to learn more about them, teaching me that they knew magic and the name of the assissin who framed me, Daud, after which I began to slowly and stealthily take them down, fouling the ambush. What Arkane could've done is just have me watch a cut scene of me being ambushed or doing what I'd just done and that would've been okay. On the other hand, giving me the freedom to stop it on my own with no hand holding, no quest marker telling me to go here, made it stand out as an awesome moment of time where I could become fully immersed in the character of Corvo, the master assassin. Moments like this can often be found in Bethesda's RPGs, or the Witcher 3 and they're incredible. That's what he's saying gaming should have more of. And he's totally right.

[sullynathan]

I understand what Warren is saying but at the same time, the games that actually try to tell a story like Walking Dead, tend to have much better writing that say a Bethesda game.

[Azzanation]

This guy is spot on. I know a lot of gamers on N4G will defend this tooth and nail.

Games are memories to me. A game that allows me to achieve crazy things and remember that I did it my way is why I love games. Games like Tomb Raider, even though they offer a great story, I don't have the freedom to do what I want to do too achieve great gaming moments. Everyone who has finished TR or UC have all finished it the same way as everybody else, its a fun roller coaster ride but there is no Varity to tell your friends "Oh this part I did it this way and it was awesome"

[plmkoh]

LOL this guys makes a few games of yesteryear and suddenly he's the emperor of games that really do "make the most of video game medium". Only he can define what a game should look like.

The last two truly 'modern' games he made was the Epic Mickey series, and they were genuinely crap, not even worthy of being in the same list as the games mentioned.

This guy is simply living on past glory, he's 100% wrong.

[FN4GM]

Hey Warren maybe you haven't looked at the sales charts in a while, when your game sells as much and is as awarded and acclaimed as Naughty Dogs are then you can talk, until then maybe keep your salty trap shut.

[Emme]

Uh, yeah, have a look at the box office and compare Transformers 4 to Pulp Fiction, Interstellar or Blade Runner. Case dismissed.

[immabadguy]

How about you go and try to "push the medium" then? Last time I checked, devs like Naughty Dog have recieved amazing receptions to their games. Now go make another crappy mobile spinoff please.

[oIITSBIIo]

I agree, Uncharted and TLOU are more of movies than games, I don't like interactive movies, thing is they have worst story than good movies and worst gameplay than good games and he is right when he said they are limited when it comes to gameplay and affecting the game's world, Uncharted1/2 and TLOU are 6/10 as games/movies at the best.

We need games that give you fun gameplay and freedom with many ideas and world you can do something with it more than just a limited story driven games with lame gameplay and cinematic experience.

[Vanfernal]

Yeah. That's why they have 88, 96 and 95 meta scores respectively. You say you don't like interactive movies. Heavy Rain and TWD can be seen as interactive movies. But Uncharted and TLOU are clearly not. Sounds to me like you are bashing some games you haven't even played.

[stragomccloud]

I don't think most of the Sony fanboys read the article. It's only talking about player control and how it should be a larger factor. He also says that he wouldn't be able to make such amazing stories himself, honoring the titles he is also rightfully criticizing.

[Emme]

Warren comes from an era where every month a new groundbreaking achievement in games was born. No wonder he might be critical, because when he started the sky was the limit. Nowadays its all sequels, shooters, generic entertainment. For every Deus Ex there is a ton of generic action games, just count the few games that really advance the medium, compared to those that just try to grab Your cash. Halo 5, COD, Battlefield, Sniper 3, Devils Third, Doom 4... Who needs that ? I mean,ok, generic action is as good a passtime as Mission Impossible 5, and often You just wanna shoot things and not think about consequences, morals or choices. But I do know what they will use to promote xbox two and ps5: Uncharted, Halo, Call of Duty.

[generic-user-name]

"Games should all be the way I want them to be, we shouldn't have any variety"

That's what I read.

[jznrpg]

What an egotistical _____________.

[Djinn]

Dues ex was garbage and just sooo amateurish in every aspect so this guy needs to shut his mouth.

[OtakuDJK1NG-Rory]

GOOD

[pyroxxx]

Such strange reasoning ,.. Here is a sample of how I feel sometimes, but it is stupid and ridiculous to make such a statement ,..
''All games should be like Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne, everything else is a waste of space''

that would be ridiculous,..

[Hotabang]

this guy is always in a world of his own. why does anybody care about what he thinks. just let him do his games and stop interviewing him XD

[Back-to-Back]

Deus Ex really? Take that trash back to the 90s.

[erthos]

(1 of 2)
“I love The Walking Dead, but the choices you have to make; they’re compelling choices… but they’re designer driven, not player driven. . ."

Valid point, Warren, but one could argue the exact same against the games you made back when you weren't just a curmudgeonly, long unavailing old sage spewing nonsense from your untouchable ivory tower. ALL GAMES ARE DESIGNER DRIVEN.

Hell, what does "designer driven" or "player driven" actually mean, Warren? A game doesn't play itself. It also conversely does not design itself. A player and game designer are in an interdependent relationship. Together, they propel a game forward. Certain games lean more heavily on the player, others on the designer. At the end of the day, both parties are essential in defining a game as a game. Neither direction is intrinsically worse - a game is merited on other, far more important factors; one being if a game is indeed fun to play. I believe the point he is trying to make is that his games (or games of that ilk) offer more room for active player choice. Which is a complete non-opinion. It's an objective fact that Deus Ex or SS2 offers more room for choice from the player than a game like The Walking Dead.

“It’s not that games like this are bad, but they limit your ability to interact with the game world, so the story can unfold the way the storyteller wants it to unfold.”

THAT'S THE POINT, WARREN. He states that it limits your ability to "interact with the game world." THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S A GAME BUILT AROUND A NARRATIVE! Who in the entire and actual fuck praised the 'nuanced and varied player-driven gameplay systems' of The Walking Dead, Uncharted, Heavy Rain, or Life Is Strange? NO ONE DID, WARREN. NO ONE.

Notice how he says, "It's not that games like this are bad. . ." He says this exclusively to cover his ass in the event someone who differs with him with enough of an independently-functioning system of opinions not to quake at the words of an old gaming-fogey decides to challenge him on his stance.