The Inner Circle special - DX12 Tech Talk with Brad Wardell

DirectX 12 bringing %300-%400 performance increase.The games currently still being made like DirectX 9 level on Xbox One.

[Foehammer]

"Massive, massive boost"

"Remember the difference between Xbox 360 launch games and the games that came out years later? X1 will be even more extreme with DX12"

Awesome

Can't wait to see what comes to X1

Edit @ mikis007, here is the test he's talking about:

http://www.anandtech.com/sh...

Edit 2 @ kingduqc, as Timotim pointed out, your EXACT statement is addressed in the podcast. For the record he agrees with you BUT, and it's a BIG but, 2 things need to happen first:

1) The program needs to be very talented

2) the very talented programer needs a reason to spend countless hours doing the programming himself as oppose to using pre-existing tools to yield a completed product in much less time.

As the Founder, President and CEO of Stardom states:

"DX12 will do 90% of the work for you" meaning all the countless hours if the developers ignored the easy route of using pre existing tools.

[TheCommentator]

I believe in DX12 having an impact on gaming, even on console, but this news seems way different than everything we've heard before. Admittedly, I didn't listen to the interview; 45 minutes is a long time. Can someone explain why this guy feels this way?

[yarbie1000]

It's not any different than what we've heard. The idea that DX12 wouldn't have a impact on XBO has been a myth from the start that's already been busted. http://videogamesandnews.co...

[bleedsoe9mm]

i'm no expert but seems to me like he stressed the ease of use of dx12 for devs on xb1 without having to spend allot of extra time getting programs close to the metal , easier for devs if dx12 features are in engine , without the extra time and money for special programming to get it there .

[Double Toasted]

Boom!

[TheCommentator]

@yarbie1000 - thanks for the link. I had a feeling Win10 and dx12 would work well together but every time I'd even suggest that it would vastly improve gpu/cpu communication people here would disagree with me.

[mkis007]

There is no context to your quote...are you talking about a 100 foot ladder? A full unabridged quote would help.

[kingduqc]

Console already has low level API for years, DX 12 does this for the pc... you won't see massive improvement console wise.

[otherZinc]

XBOX ONE will demonstrate DirectX 12 with:

Fable Legends 1080p 60fps
Forza Motorsport 6 1080p 60fps
Halo 5 1080p 60fps
This year 2015!

The PS4 has not 1 AAA Exclusive running
1080p 60fps slated for 2015:
The Order 1886
Blood Born
Uncharted 4
Will not run 1080p 60fps in 2015.

The "Secret Sauce" has arrived.

[hello12]

Brad just confirmed what i said on here the 8 core CPU is what is impressive about both consoles and it will be important for directx12 and for gaming in the future. If you think about it the first 8 core CPU PC from Intel only came out in late 2014

If games can utilise the 6 cores or even 7 cores in the future amazing games are coming, Directx11 games function mainly on 1 core.

Directx12 will not change directx11 games at all, interesting.

He said directx11 to directx12 we will see a performance gain, but its not huge and he said if you want to see phenomenal gains devs will have to create new directx12 engines for their games. Phil Spencer was right it really is going to be down to how devs use the new tools available.

DirectX 12 bringing %300-%400 performance increase

People are jumping the gun here and not understanding what he meant. Going from 8fps to 14fps is a 100% increase.

On one 1 games or demo they saw a increase of 500 per cent. dX11 it could not get above 7fps with dx12 i think it hit 43 OR 46 fps

Commentator@ I think everyone should listen he even talked about x box 1 resolution problems and causes and its not what i expected it seems to be a dev issue of not optimising.

He also mentioned the PS4 api and what he heard about it. Worth a listen even if not a x box fan.

[TheCommentator]

Thanks for the breakdown. Has MS confirmed then that they can talk to the gpu simultaneously with all cores? I thought I remember hearing that Xbox One was designed with only one core being able to talk to the gpu, which would limit dx 12 performance on the console.

[dreadz74]

This what makes Dx12 a big deal on XB1 ..Right now only one core can talk to gpu with Dx12 all cores can talk to gpu on the same level.If games are no longer CPU bound imagine how much further they could push it!!He adresses the issue that so many say oh it's to the metal already.Yes it is closer to metal but still only one core is doing the work.Gains will not be as high as pc which is 300%-500% but with only 1 core previously doing the work and now all pushing the same do ppl really think there will be no increase on XB1?I would say 100%-200% increase not this nonsense ppl say that only 10% increase rubbish man...IMO from information and test done from Anandtech PC will see 300-500% increase on high end HW on middle HW 150%-300% and on low end HW 100%-150% this is insane http://www.anandtech.com/sh...

Sorry but XB1 will see a good gain Phil is just tempering expectation watch the article it's very good.. Current games will not look better or get a boost but games built from the ground up on DX12 will look way better..Games must be built on DX12 to see the gains old games will still be the same this is very clear now!!!

[VJGenova]

I don't know where you get your information from, but I had an 8-core, 16 thread CPU in 2012. As of year ended 2014, I now have a 14-core, 28 thread CPU. Both of these are Intel Xeon processors ...

[slate91]

hard to get excited when phil himself has said it wont increase xbox one in a significant way numerous times. At work so i cant listen to the interview. Is this legit? Or more wait and see?

[mkis007]

I really think the only difference between this and last gen is that we finally have a name for the improvements that span the gen.

[Gamer777]

Phil stated that it wouldn't change the system's hardware. The interview is mainly focused on how DX12 improves multi-threading and allows for more efficient usage of the console's 8 CPUs.

[VJGenova]

If it can really use 8 of my 14 cores efficiently then awesome! I'm sure my GPU will then be the bottleneck. Got to say it just keeps getting better!

[XanderZane]

Now imagine games that are already at 30fps getting that same 300%-400% performance increase. Greatness is coming.... True the devs will have to modify or create new graphic engines to utilize the DX12 tools, but I don't see that as a problem. Many devs are already jumping on board. We'll know the whole ramification of this after the GDC.

@slate91
Phil is under an NDA, just like most devs. You think he's going to spill the beans when he has a muzzle on his head? He can't say anything.

[slate91]

Yeah thats true. But why not just tell everyine to "wait and see" and build hype, instead of trying to kill the hype? You know what I mean?

[yarbie1000]

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu

[corroios]

300 to 400% performance in a mobile CPU, really? Does anyone believes in this?

This means that the Xbox One will be able to run games 4k/120 frames...

For the PC must be like 3000% performance...

[Lenrulesdaworld]

that's not what he was saying those gains are for pc but xbox one could see similar gains, if devs write for dx12 game specifically so gains are possible but not that high. maybe 100-200% which is only like 30 fps going to 60 fps. something xbox one could use to great effect.

[ThePresentIsAgift]

Given that alot of people on this site seem to believe the Xbox One has dire performance you would think that the extra 400% would be A. Feasible and B. Welcomed.

The PS2 and PS3 both had exotic, hard to develop for architecture and both smashed it out of the park when mastered, as also stated the original 360's later games were particularly impressive. The plus 400 percent no doubt only applies to specific criteria, surely though it is not hard to imagine that development process would improve over time?

Look at the Xb1 UI from launch to present, major improvements and enhancement.

[Gwiz]

You're comparing exotic hardware and hardware based on X86 having the same level of mastering it's potential?.Wait,didn't Sony go with X86 to make things easier?.lol i'm afraid your comparison is not accurate.

[Gwiz]

@dreadz74

Is that you Zaire?.LMAO.

300-400% increase my ass.

[dreadz74]

Who the hell is Zaire?Anyways did you see the article on AnandTech these are the gains that they reported on top of the line HW so you are saying the test is wrong?Back up with evidence not words man ..Cpu scaling on R9 290X from Dx11 was 8.3 fps(4 cores) on extreme settings same test on Dx12 it was 42.9 fps thats almost if not 500% increase...here is chart http://images.anandtech.com...

Edit below for Gwiz.Do you even read man?I said above tha XB1 would not see the same gains that XB1 gains would be around 100%-200% increase..Seriously man read before you just spew nonsense ...I shall no longer feed the troll

[Gwiz]

That's on a PC,look at the GPU lol.
You have to be really dense to believe the X1 having the same impact.

[Gwiz]

Keep on dreaming.

[SlavisH2]

Cool stuff

[ThePresentIsAgift]

Perhaps I was trying to avoid obviously bringing the ps4 into this discussion and also highlighting that development had overcome significant hurdles in years pas. Likewise as the ps4 is also x86 based and easier already to develop for, then perhaps its sdk updates aren't quite as exciting. Of course it will continue to improve. Hell the new drivers for my midrange 2010 amd pc gpu allow it to play all but the most intensive direct x11 based games.

[Lenrulesdaworld]

Glad once again tic could provide a great discussion, bring news to the xbox community and show xbox one is not a trash console. thanks everyone for watching and if you guys want us to interview someone or get a dev on the red carpet, lets us know, thx

[DanzoSAMA]

Xbox ONE just getting better and better!

[nerdeu]

Oh, these people claiming that Anandtech tests and Wardells statements are false. Wardell is directly working with Directx12 and Anandtech is an experienced site that has been active since 1997 ... that is 9 years more than N4G and has great reputation. I just listened to the whole 50-min podcast and this is a summary of it:

What Wardell is saying is that all eight cores on the CPU (in the consoles) will be able to send calls to the CPU simultaneously which hasn't been done before. When DX9 was released it could only send calls trough one of the cores while the others were sleeping. Via DX10 and DX11 all cores could send calls to the GPU but still only one at the time while the others were waiting in line. With DX12 all eight cores will be able to send signals at the same time to the GPU.

Now to the part that is more about the practical issues than the theoretical. In order to use DX12 (or Mantle which has the basis on the same principle and actually was the first initiative to work more to the metal) firstly an engine, let's say Unity or UE4, has to be designed to handle calls from the eight cores simoutaneously. The second issue is that developers need to develop games that are both CPU- and GPU-based more than ever before. Lately developers have been focusing too much on the GPU-side because the API's haven't allowed the CPU to use it's all capabilities (because of the sleeping and lining cores).

In other terms the question is how optimized the new engines are with DX12 and Mantle (and other API's like Valves upcoming OpenGL which will be seen at GDC) and how much developers want to put effort into using all that theoretical power that is being offered to them. Wardell mentions that developers are often in rush to release games and don't really put effort in writing own code. That is what has been sinking the Xbox One since the beginning because it simply needs more time for developing to reach those 1080p. At the same time developers should use the new engines/API's to push both consoles to 1080p with 60fps all across.

Regarding games that have been released or will release during 2015 (on both consoles) the most of them won't use any significant advantage of DX12 nor Mantle since they haven't been optimized to the several CPU-calls in the first place and the games themselves don't have hundreds of things running on the screen at the same time. Hence they games are running on engines that don't use the principles of Mantle or DX12 which is a requirement.

I also want to add that I own a PS4 and I don't care about fanboy-wars. People are ignorant and don't understand tech. Anandtech and Wardell are far more authorized to talk about these issues than any other so called experts trolling around in threads.

[pumpactionpimp]

Wow! You guys are way to gullible. If you believe that software of any kind will give anything a 3-400% performance boost, you are sadly mistaken. It amazes me how quick people accept things as fact.

Wait until DX12 comes out. You will see improvements on pc for sure, and likely minor bumps in improvement on x1. But to believe your pc, or xbox will run a game 3-400% better is total rubbish.