Microsoft Considering Hardware Accelerated Ray Tracing But Not With DirectX 12

Hardware accelerated ray tracing is a fascinating technology able to deliver amazing visuals, as mentioned by the newly appointed Xbox head honcho Phil Spencer a while ago and during a livestreamed talk at build Development Director Ales Holecek was asked if the company has plans for it, and he responded that the company is looking into the tech, but it won’t be part of DirectX 12.

[AngelicIceDiamond]

ART, DX12, Cloud.

It all sounds good but I dunno if I can eat it all.

[christocolus]

I remember Phil talking about ray tracing a month ago. He said they were experimenting with it and that the tech had great potential.

http://www.gamespot.com/art...

It seems some unannounced titles are using the tech already..I just want to see whatever they've been working on cos i know the tech produces great results and is used mostly in animated movies for now but it requires a lot of cpu power.

I guess we will know more at E3.

@morepower

I went back to read that tweet..I don't think Phils response about raytracing had anything to do with the cloud. He answerd the guys question alright but his mention of raytracing wasn't about the cloud imo. I think its a tech the console can handle without the cloud.

[Eonjay]

Exactly. PC's twice as powerful as the X1 would struggle. I think, this only leaves cloud processing. If you stream a games, you can get whatever results you want. Nvidia showed this at CES 2014 using a gpu farm.

Here is the video:
http://youtu.be/4BeqGY2RwcI...

To get these kinds of requires monstrous amounts of graphical power. This demo required 1 PtFlop of power of 1000TFlops. Thats not possible on anyone's computer, console or whatever.

Edit: So maybe if the cloud was connected to something like an Iray VCA...

[Sethry101]

Note in the vid Eonjay linked, when he mentions the network requitments needed for this. Now how many of you here can say you meet the network requirements?

This tech is amazing, and works, but its only feasible on an industrial scale. As said in the advert, for advertisement or design. There is now way it can currently be used for home consol gaming, just not with current networks.

Secondly each Iray has 8 GPUs. How many will you need to say 500k to a million gamers. Sadly just not feasible right now.

[fr0sty]

The enormous amount of servers that would be required to render raytraced games for millions of users at once is enough to stop this from happening. As said above, bandwidth just isn't there either.

Raytracing in real time at HD resolutions and 60fps is just too tall of an order.

[TheGreatAndPowerful]

more BS from MS.

[Eonjay]

@RATEDAFORADULT

Of course not. I just trying to figure out hypothetical options to make this actually happen. If however, you weren't shooting for Nvidia's unrealistically high standard, you could do something on a much smaller scale with far less power. Giakia demonstrated this back in 2012 using Nvidia technology during a Hawken demo. Of course, we all know what happened to Giakai 3 months after their E3 demo...

Microsoft response was not specific about Xbox and they even said it wouldn't be a part of Direct X 12... this indicates that whatever they are looking into is very far off. Beyond 2015 far off.

[Army_of_Darkness]

Soon Phil will announce that the xbone can cook you breakfast ;-)

[GameNameFame]

MS already said 0.3 tflop for each console

So. Lets cut the bs guys. There is no practical to use Cloud to help your local console.

But even if there was, not much you can do with 0.3 tflops.

MS themselves said this btw.

[kreate]

All this could of been avoided if they just used better hardware on the x1 from the beginning.

[frankdrebin72]

microsoft continually striving to give gamers new tech on a console.

All this info from the cloud demo..yip a demo same as morpheous..but the infastructure is there and starting to be utilised.
dx12...devs that have had access to it are excited,..devs that havent sceptical.
update after update to the xbox one..kerps rolling out.
2014 WAS the year it was to be released ,..now its not only playing catch up,..its now becoming a reality.
ray tracing...if the cloud is capable and the boffins that do know their stuff are on board also..wow.....

[Utalkin2me]

Bookmarking this and we will come back to it at a later date...

[frankdrebin72]

please do so.

[denawayne]

@Frankdrebin - love your name. "Hey! It's Enrico Pallazzo!"

[stuna1]

Microsoft continually swelling its fanbases heads up with new tech that at this point in time are virtually unachievable in the near future! The Cloud demo was shown on a rig sporting a high end card, but not the Xbox1. The demo of DX12 also shown on a rig sporting a high end card, but not on the Xbox1, with a date set for full implementation in late 2015. Now this!

Microsoft is using "Shock & Awe" tactics to try and garner support after a terrible unveiling.

[Gozer]

@stuna1
I disagree. I think its a great thing that MS is keeping in touch with their fanbase. They are making sure not to commit another DRM fiasco.

Mostly the reason there are so many stories about MS is because they had a lot new tech to show at BUILD and GDC. DX12 is exciting news for both PC and X1. Its something to look forward to even if the tech doesn't get here til 2015. They have stated that DX12 will improve the X1. How much is still up in the air, but I look at it any advancement is better than no advancement.
http://www.gamesindustry.bi...

Its still up in the air about the cloud(no pun intended). So far they have used the cloud on 2 games for a.i., some people want to brush that off, but its proof the technology works. MS has the second largest server farm on the planet. I am sure they are looking closely at the benefits of having that advantage.

[FanboyKilla]

It may be just talk now. But its better than the other guys saying and doing nothing but telliing you its not true it wont work. Lmfao thats what everyone says just before something awesome happens. For example electricity, airplanes, and rocket ships. The haters dont stop the show they hate.

[medman]

This just in...Microsoft keeps putting more and more bullshot on that xbone plate and mindless gamers keep eating it up, despite the horrific stench and putrefaction...film at 11.

[Azzanation]

Its easy, don't eat it all, just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Xavy]

Sounds very good. But w'll see if any of this helps the X1.

[MorePowerOfGreen]

I don't think anybody said DX12 would bring this tech. Last time Phil talked about it was in response to a tweeter asking about Azure cloud compute enabled Ray tracing resulting in the first comment Phil made about them working on it. Azure servers are way more powerful regardless of the DX12 XB1 boost in performance. MSFT will allocate the equivalent of 3 times the XB1's local hardware power to devs using Azure.

I'm just amazed that people can not except this tech as being real(both Azure and DX12) Just a few days ago most claimed it was impossible for Xbox One to use DX12 due to needing hardware and assuming MSFT did not design the XB1 for DX12 first vs DX11, which both assumptions were really really wrong. XB1 is clearly 2015 tech forced out a bit early

[GarrusVakarian]

"MSFT will allocate the equivalent of 3 times the XB1's local hardware power to devs using Azure. "

You read wrong, this was the article you are referring to- http://www.develop-online.n...

"We're provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we're provisioning the *CPU and storage* equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud,"

I also think that this next quote is very important for people like you to read-

"“Average broadband speeds in the developed world struggle to reach over 8mbps as of Q3 last year - that's only one megabyte per second. This means that whatever cloud computing power is available, consoles will have available to them an average of 1MB/s a second of processed data. If we compare that to the sort of bandwidth consoles are used to, the DDR3 of Xbox One is rated at around 68,000MB/s, and even that wasn't enough for the console and had to be augmented with the ESRAM.”"

The same guy that said the first quote also said that these architectures were "a generation ahead of the highest-end PC on the market today". He has since been called out and dismissed on his claims.

So yeah, huge grain of salt should be taken. I remember reading that article and thinking to myself "who would believe that connecting your X1 to the internet would make it 4 times as powerful".....doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it's you that believes it.

[xer0]

MS keeps making it rain secret sauce! I'm drowning in the deluge of secret sauce on the way ;-)

Incidentally PS3 was using a limited amount of ray-tracing in GT5. But we all know that the CELL was a beast, hobbled by its weak nVidia GPU.

[frankdrebin72]

dont know if possible but could there be a term known as " local cloud" were you can utilise your pc( as it seems all ps4 players have one for titanfall..)...or similar device to offload certain functions??..
i have heard this and seemingly it is possible..ie microsoft are rolling out universal apps for all there devices??
just a thought

[GarrusVakarian]

@frankdebrin

I'm not sure, but wouldn't that basically be the same but on a MUCH smaller scale? I imagine the same limitations in terms of internet speed/bandwidth that the above quote mentions would apply.....

[imt558]

3 times XB1's local hardware using the cloud???

I can't fuc**** believe it that some people believe that MisterX's bull****.

ROFLMAO

[ovnipc]

I think that more power of the green is mister x. The done its an amazing console, but that misterxmedia is crazy. One day he will say that the x1has alien tech. Everything he says gets debunked. Idk what's he is smoking.

[GarrusVakarian]

Indeed, it's crazy what some people believe. "We're provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we're provisioning the *CPU and storage* equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud," ...turned into.... "MSFT will allocate the equivalent of 3 times the XB1's local hardware power to devs using Azure. "

Funny thing is, morepowerofgreen believes something much more far-fetched/unrealistic than what the dude actually said and got called out/dismissed for. It's like some people don't even stop to doubt what they are hearing....THREE TIMES the local hardware power will be available to devs using Azure....i mean, if you believe that, you will believe anything MS tells you. 3X the power of the X1...through your wi-fi! /s

[QuickdrawMcgraw]

Maybe you are right MorePower...I do not claim to really understand all the tech talk going on lately about the Xbox1...The PS4 has always been seen as the more powerful of the two consoles(by most)...And now all this new tech talk for the Xbox1 seems...well kind of magical...But you seem to know about the tech in question...So if all this is true,does the Xbox1 become a more powerful console then the PS4...

[Xavy]

Please just STOP.

[Fireseed]

Very interested if anything gets produced with this tech, would be huge for me to see cause in my mind ray tracing has always been something I have to render for 3 hours to a few days in Maya. But to see it in any capacity in real time would be VERY exciting for me.

[GarrusVakarian]

I believe Killzone SF uses ray-trace lighting?

Pretty sure i read a 'Tech of Killzone SF' article a while back saying it.

@n4gamingm

Cool, i didn't know Ryse used it too. The lighting on both of those games is incredible.

[Fireseed]

Nah, I beleive (and I could very well be wrong) KZ: SF was only using a ray tracing REFLECTION system. Which would find what had to be reflected (like in a pool of water, glass, etc) and trace a line to the object to find what it had to reflect.

It used some kind of light probe array system, along with global illumination to light its environments.

[Anonagrog]

You're probably thinking of 'screen-space reflections'.

Much of what 'Fireseed' said is correct. Specular reflections for displaying static objects are typically added using image-space lighting methods which are often generated offline (although can be done in real-time for some cost). On the other hand we have dynamic/moving objects. To have any chance of displaying them in reflections, at relatively low cost, screen-space reflections can be used to great effect. There are a lot of caveats that come with it's use, as it only works for reflected things already rendered, but none-the-less it's a great graphics hack.

This will explain it better than I could:-

http://www.gamasutra.com/bl...

There's more on his blog and in his GDC presentation, as well as a decent amount of info to be found online.

It's a relatively modern technique that's finding it's way into most engines and modern triple-A games.

[scott182]

Didn't Gran Turismo on the PS3 and Warhawk use ray tracing?

[rainslacker]

What you're doing is a very different kind of ray tracing than we will see in video games in the near future. Even on the highest end PC's with the fastest multi-GPU setups they couldn't do that in real time. Most of the ray-tracing we see in games is done using tricks to simulate the technique, often to varying effects.

It's possible a server farm such as Azure could do it in real time, but the data required makes it unlikely to be able to be used on an off-site client.

[aerisbueller]

look up the brigade engine on youtube. it's the only game engine solution I've ever seen. They're getting very close. It's already smooth and real time, but it has a graininess that will eventually be corrected by optimizations and faster gpus. It's pretty mind blowing if you haven't seen it yet

[2v1]

behold in the clouds we see the secret sauce coming down us.

[christocolus]

The article is about MS considering hardware accelerated raytracing without dx12..do you have any idea what it means? If not then ask cos i don't think this has anything to do with the cloud either but pls can you focus on the topic above and stop with the silly jokes. People should learn to be mature and make reasonable comments so others have something to reply to..but in your case you've gone off topic .if every comment was an offtopic comment then there would be no need for users to make comments here on N4g.

@fireseed

Your reply to asmith below is spot on

[asmith2306]

I wish Microsoft would stop yamering on about tech stuff and just show us what games they have that will blow our minds by utilising all this.

[Fireseed]

Just think about what you said there for a second... Just take a moment and reflect on how you advised Microsoft; you know the tech conglomerate that builds technologies for developers to use all the time. And you tell them to stop talking about their tech...

Would you like Apple to stop talking about their Hardware? Or maybe Verizon should stop talking about mobile phones...

[Calvin_ISA]

I think he means that he wants to see proof of all this smoke they're blowing. If there's smoke, there's fire! Usually Microsoft's smoke is accompanied by mirrors, though. No substance, ACTUAL substance to back up their "claims". The saddest thing is how much people will dismiss their lies in the future and continue to support. I am still amazed people supported the Xbox One after the original business model is to screw over consumers. ESPECIALLY blows my mind that Gamestop promotes them. Money, eh?! Funny things, it does.

[Fireseed]

@Calvin

You're logic is skewed, implying that Microsoft NEEDS some software to prove the technology. They aren't showing this for consumers... they're showing it to developers. And responding to questions.

Let's apply this same logic to OTHER tech companies.

Epic needs to stop talking about UE4 UNTIL they release a game on it! They're just all hyping it up!

Unity is just hyping there engine without actually putting a game out with it yet...

Thinking developers shouldn't get there hands or even worse just eyes on licensed technologies the same day as consumers is beyond dumb.

[Calvin_ISA]

Logic is not skewed. I'm not saying Microsoft needs the software to PROVE the technology. I'm saying they "need" it to SELL the HARDWARE. They're showing it to developers to get them to rile up the consumers and all it is is smoke. Smoking is bad for ya. ;)

Your Unity and UE4 examples are unrelated, as they're not using un-proven "almighty cloud" THEORY-tech...

[rainslacker]

When apple or Verizon talk about their hardware, they have actual hardware to show.

Typically with MS and their software, they also have a product to show, and it typically works the way they state to varying degrees of accuracy.

With the X1 they are doing something they don't normally do, and that's talk about things that are neither implemented or even have real-world practical applications.

They have many times in the past talked about technologies they are developing. They have done this in public forums, and for developers. It's an informational way to present a product even though it has no practical use at the time, or may be many years out. It's what MS does, they create technologies. However, in this case, it is being applied to a product that they are already selling. And they are using this stuff as a selling point for the console. In this case, because MS made it a selling point the people asking for proof is completely justified.

I said in a post in a blog that some people are getting excited for things that they won't see implemented for 3 years minimum. 4-5 years more likely. And even more likely not even in this generation of consoles. It's fine to be excited by the prospects of what's to come, but not when people are using it as their reasons why the X1 is better, and it's a disservice to the consumer if they are buying the system because of these technologies.

MS, and more aptly their fan sites/fans, are making it seem like this stuff is right around the corner. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[asmith2306]

Stop being so pretentious. I want them to show us how this is going to be utilised on the X1.

[ajspeed_14]

cloud is the way forward

[Nolando]

Uhm... if anything can help games look better then we all should be for it! right? Eh? Eh?

:(

[OwnageDC650]

MS, just STFU and bring on the GOOD games!

[Jdoki]

Wake me up when we can actually play some fun games on consoles using all this tech we keep hearing about

[HacSawJimThugin]

I'm just glad we are getting a steady stream of news even if it's a bunch of what ifs and possibilities. The other side doesn't even let its fan base know what they are doing.

[GarrusVakarian]

Wait a minute....aren't you the same guy i called out earlier today for only paying attention for things that suit your argument? Im pretty sure you are, and here you are doing it again.

"The other side doesn't even let its fan base know what they are doing."

http://n4g.com/news/1477720...

And yet again, just like in the other article i called you out on, you are ignoring Project Morpheus and all of the news we have had on that since it's reveal.

So we know exactly what Sony are doing. Getting to work on a new VR headset, a new firmware update, getting ready for E3 and preparing 3 new IP's for this year alone....plus unannounced PS exclusives (that falls into the "preparing for E3" category).

Man, you really have a knack for conveniently remembering certain info, don't you?

[HacSawJimThugin]

Lol. Why whatever do you mean?

[rainslacker]

Sony has Morpheus, PSVitaTV, a bunch of unannounced and announced 1st party games, PS4 firmware updates about once a month, a new slim Vita, Gaikai beta invites going out.

That's just what I could think of off the top of my head. I'm part of the Sony fan base, and I know what they're up to. They post this stuff quite regularly on their blog, maybe you should check it out since you aren't in the loop. All things ready for the consumer to consume with the exception of Morpheus.

You know what Sony doesn't have to do? That's make up all sorts of PR announcements of things that will make it more powerful. They made their product right the first time.

What exactly is MS coming out with this year on the hardware front? All I see is a bunch of technologies that aren't close to being ready for the consumer, and in some cases the developer.

[jhoward585]

MS are out of their minds.

You can't turn a volk wagon into a ferrari. Ray tracing takes an enormous amount of horse power to run. The x1 hardware might be capible to do some ray tracing, but not a lot like MS claim.

[0neShot]

Yes, you are the guru of this subject matter and you designed ray tracing. /s

[jhoward585]

Seems to me you haven't been paying any attention lately. You believe MS if you want to.

MS talk so much Sh_t Hefty Bag can't even hold it. All talk and no proof. I need more than a simple power point demo.

I would rather them show off dx12 on a game that we've already seen before to give a better picture. A before an after demo would be greatly accepted instead of some boring flash/power point demo.

Do your homework before commenting on what is fact and what is not.

http://www.ign.com/boards/t...

[aragon]

I think Phil is a good boss fit for the position but he should know by now to drop the performance argument until the gaming community can see it to believe it

[mochachino]

I think it's obvious now that MS' official PR policy now it to obfuscate PS4s power advantage.

I had my fill of MS carrots last gen with 360.

[rainslacker]

Uncanny isn't it?

It does seem that everything MS comes out with on this front is how it will eventually be more powerful, SOME DAY(Undisclosed of course).

So many technologies that will make it better, EVENTUALLY.

So many things they consider that they want to do, but don't say they actually will, or if it's even possible without doubt being thrown at them.

I think it would have been cheaper for them to just make it better in the first place. Sure they would have lost some money initially, but the long term support and costs of R&D required to implement all these amazing things has got to be many times the initial purchase price of the Xbox, let alone the actual profit margin that MS makes on the system.

[cellfluid]

No more cloud talk it's all dx12 and now this lol pathetic

[Silly gameAr]

Ugh. Anyone remember when games were important to gamers?

[DarXyde]

Why would any company consider doing something that would improve the console and not just, y'know, do it?

[Illusive_Man]

Ryse uses a bit of ray tracing and is arguably the best looking title of this gen.

[Hicken]

Dude, stop it. Ryse was surpassed day 1 by Killzone, and Killzone has been equaled or surpassed by inFamous.its not even arguable, with how flat everything but the MC is.

But with nothing else coming any time soon, I imagine folks like you will be claiming Ryse is the best looking game all generation.