N4G: A Rule Amendment on Relevance & A Reminder on Guideline Abuse and Lame Reports

Hello everyone.

I wanted to address some things that I think have been progressing unhealthily in the last few months.

Let me first get this out of the way: Preferring one company over another, liking one service over another, supporting one developer over another, or just having an opinion that is different from your fellows is common, natural, and not an issue. N4G is what it is, but at its core, it's an amalgamation of people with opinions that are not required to line up behind one opinion or where people are required to be ruled by the majority or loudest voice on a topic.

What isn't natural, though, is how we learn to defend these opinions. Rather than learn to agree to disagree, we hold our opinions in such high regard that we begin to support an opinion with tangential data not specific to said opinion ("most consoles sold this generation say what?"), utilize various logical fallacies ("Review scores say otherwise"), or hold onto facts that we don't understand and often misuse ("custom RDNA 2" in general).

Regardless of these faults in our arguments, though, the general use of them isn't necessarily purposeful or ill-intent. It's how we've evolved to defend our opinions. It's how we've evolved to respond to attacks.

As moderators, it's our task to not just restrict or ban people for having opinions or for just being wrong, but for purposefully antagonizing, eliciting negative responses, and playing a game aimed at a person or group of people and not their arguments. It's also our job to determine when someone deserves a restriction or ban, not when a part of the community believes they deserve it. A task itself seeped in perception bias from every party involved. A task the moderation team wishes they honestly didn't have to partake in, but we do and that is that.

So what is all this about?

We've seen a progression in the use of submissions and reports as fuel for these opinions.

This is troubling because the purpose of submissions is to allow the community to submit gaming news and not to antagonize specific N4G users. And, the purpose of reports is to ensure that the submissions follow our guidelines.

We understand there's a lot of opinion on the upcoming hardware. We understand, as briefly explained above, how people learn to defend these opinions. It's a heated time in the community. There is a lot of missing information, many rumors, many opinions from industry professionals, and just so many things changing as companies start to define who they are in the upcoming generation and what this means for gamers.

Regardless of this, we would like to reiterate a few things as well as add an amendment to a guideline regarding submission relevance.

SUBMISSIONS HAVE GUIDELINES FOR A REASON

Our guidelines exist to keep submissions honest and to make sure they all stand equally based on those guidelines. When people submit things that don't abide by those guidelines, and when people approve those same submissions without regard to our guidelines, they are not working under good faith.

You can disagree with our guidelines, that is your right. But, you still have to follow them. And failure to do so regularly, let alone to do so to push specific news, will likely result in restrictions or outright bans.

Ignorance is not an acceptable defense, especially after months of repeated issues.

LAME REPORTS ACT TO OPPOSE APPROVALS

There exists no system in place that allows a person to disapprove of a submission. This is why lame reports exist. Lame reports represent the opinion of the user that the content is not appropriate for or of good enough quality for N4G.

But, this opinion doesn't apply to actual news. News is news. It can't just be disregarded because you don't want it to be seen. The guidelines regarding the quality and sourcing of news already exist in our guidelines. For the validity of whether a submission is allowed, per our guidelines, users should use the other submission report options, including 'Other' for those items not covered by the other report options. You can also submit a ticket to the mod team from https://n4g.com/tickets/add... about submission issues.

If you start to use the lame report to try and stifle actual news, and nothing else, it will likely result in restrictions or outright bans.

UPDATED GUIDELINES ON SUBMISSIONS

As of today, we have updated the guidelines regarding industry professional (developers or publishers) opinions on topics related to hardware and not their game.

You can see the update to these guidelines at https://n4g.com/user/blogpo...

Specifically, we have updated our guidelines as follows:

"c) a generic tweet or single response interview item from an industry professional may not be relevant if it provides no new information, is an opinion and not news on hardware, or is a generic response without any specifications as to how something may or may not be handled;"

This update is to further clarify relevance as well as to plug what we find to be a loophole that people, especially journalists, have utilized to sell headlines rather than actual news that is relevant rather than just the opinion of one person among many.

[neutralgamer1992]

Bring back the bubble system and have an open zone for those wanting to be fanboys

Those open zones made sure we could have mature conventions and the bubble system made sure to stop fanboys. It wasn't a perfect system but it was better than this

[VenomUK]

I think this needed to be said. The format wars prior to a new generation launch can be a lot of fun if the arguing is good-natured! But some people take it too far trying to bury news they don’t like, abusing the lame reports or promoting any scrap of opinion that supports their console preference, just yesterday there was a story from an indie developer like this.

2020 is an auspicious year because two brand new consoles are launching, so WE all need to just chill and enjoy the ride.

[rainslacker]

@wesker

Most "news" nowadays is more editorial or relaying PR over actual news. This is true all over news media. The commentary allows them to fill space, and nowadays people seem to care more about relaying their opinions, as opposed to learning or understanding what is going on.

[GamerRN]

Unfortunately N4G itself is a pro Sony site and it only seems to step in when someone defends Xbox and I can't help but notice all the examples in the post reference things said negatively about Sony. So suddenly, we want to remind people that we won't tolerate this behavior..... When it's against Sony.

I've been banned 6 times for defending Xbox or simply saying just buy both systems... It's absurd... All Consoles Matter!

#AllConsolesMatter

[KyRo]

The bubble system didn't work as great as you seem to remember. You would still get that guy with one bubble spouting their hate for a game or console they had no interest in which would then open the comments to mountain of other childish replies from people who still had multiple bubbles. Just because the initial troll couldn't comment no more, a lot of other people would. You would also have them people begging for bubbles and writing replies they didn't necessarily agree with for upvotes.

It was a good idea but one which was flawed. I wouldn't mind it coming back with a few adjustments.

[UltraNova]

Name some adjustments, because as things stand the bubble system and open zone is exactly what N4G needs right now, including the latest guideline amendment. To be clear I'm not saying the bubble system as we knew it was perfect. What I'm saying is that we need to provide some ideas on how to improve it before re-introducing it.

Kudos to the mods for finally acknowledging and acting on this.

PS: Gamingbolt and Forbes be gone.

[rainslacker]

I think a rating system that moves comments up or down in relevance would be good. No bubbles, or even the 10 comment limit which I assume is a carryover from the old site design they couldn't just do away with.

N4G would have to get some control over its sporadic but problem that seems to randomly see huge numbers of up or downvotes despite it being atypical on that type of comment or articlw

[Golfcoachh]

Problem with the bubble system, is when you favor one of the consoles that is considered the inferior one on this message board, you get down bubbled even when it was a normal comment. Especially during ps3/360 days, man I remember just making a comment about how my experience with RROD was not bad, only had 1 and it was a couple years into my console and the down bubble votes flew. So I don't think that system works either.

[ChrisW]

Another problem with the bubble system was that people with multiple accounts could simply inflate their number of bubbles, and then of course, there were like minded people who would also help inflate the number of bubbles. In addition, those same people would then spam dislikes (which we still get) against those who said the slightest thing against their general opinion -- reducing the number of bubbles -- and thus keeping the argument extremely one-sided.

[DiRtY]

I disliked the bubble system, because you could not have a real discussion, when you ran out of bubbles.
To limit the amount of comments for everyone, because some can't behave would be a step in the wrong direction IMO.

[IRetrouk]

Everyone has a limit of 10 comments per article.

[OB1Biker]

Then you had the 'flag bearers' usual suspects with a gazillion bubbles each camp was giving a lot of 'well said' crap because they were speaking for one 'camp'

[rainslacker]

I found people who were never contentious, generally respectful, and. Ever rocked the status quo, but just talked about games or things they liked without making it personal, were prone to being stuck at the starting number or bubbles indefinitely. While there was a system in place for gaining or losing bubbles, gaining them was too hard, and losing them was too easy.

For those coming to the site for actual discussion, it was a turn off, because good discussions could go on for many comments.

I don't want the bubble system back. I just think better, or maybe more consistent moderation overall would be a good thing.

[BlackIceJoe]

I understand what you're trying to say, but I have to disagree with you on the bubble system.

I remember people abusing it, so if you disliked what someone said, instead of giving them a down vote, you'd press the button to have them lose a bubble instead.

So it wasn't as perfect as you remember.

[ElementX]

I agree. Some of the most annoying people had the most bubbles just because people agreed with them and several people who were stating facts had fewer because people don't like facts when they don't support the console of choice

[Palitera]

^ And now politics as well. In today’s trumpist N4G, saying that you appreciate TLOU2 or that the Earth is round would mean -1 bubble immediately.

[Christopher]

100% out of the hands of the moderation team.

Edit: Personally, no to bubbles, they had their own problems with the majority voice stifling the minority voice. But, I would love to be able to send certain people to permanent open zone only commenting rather than having to outright ban them.

[neutralgamer1992]

Let's have some sort of open zone so people who just want to troll and act our their fanboynism

Also I feel like the fee who are known fanboys have multiple accounts maybe your team can look into that

[rainslacker]

I thought the mods made the call on actual adding or removing bubbles? Didnt know it was based purely on number of votes.

Not that I liked the system, and on that note I dont like the 10 comment limit now....which I realize is probably also out of your hands, and I assume a hold over from the old site design, and the databases require it too deeply in the code

I wouldnt mind the actual forums coming back...particularly if they can link them to the articles so people can discuss older topics

Unfortunately, n4g doesnt lend itself to random discussion without running the risk of being off topic

@Darth below

From what I understand, they did away with the open zone to promote more discussion in the regular zone.

I havent seen forums here for a long time, do they still have them?

[UltraNova]

Maybe the old bubble system won't work today. You should consider adding a drop down list to the agree/disagree button naming people who cliked either option.

And yeah sending antagonistic people to an open some for x period of time is a good idea.

[lociefer]

Ya, i think we're long overdue for a "gloves off" open zone. Just put a disclaimer that it's 18+ and let people fight to their hearts' content. This "default" comment section would be reserved for more civilized discussions.

[darthv72]

Isnt there still the forum for that sort of thing? I cant remember as I have not been in there in years, but i thought they kept the forums for just such a thing.

[darthv72]

The main problem with the bubbles was, again... the difference of opinion. You don't like what someone says... not only do you give a disagree but you take away a bubble. Over a difference of opinion???? Come on. The bubble popping was to be used as a last resort if someone was blatantly calling out aggression in their comment or using profanity towards others. Not because they liked sega more than nintendo or played mobile more than console.

The open zone was kind of a fun though. It was a side to let off steam but even that was abused. Right now the way they have it set up, everyone has the same ability to comment. I cant recall how many comments one person can make in a thread but i know its like 7 or 8 maybe. So long as people keep track of their own comments then you can tell when someone has reached their limit (like the bubbles only not as visually obvious).

[ShadowWolf712]

Yes and no. I liked the Bubble System to a degree, but it actually eventually evolved to the point where the fanboys had the biggest megaphone. Sure, it made it rougher on people whose accounts were banned and had to make a new one, but at the same time, some of the highest bubble counts I used to see were on blatant fanboys, and I'd watch people who weren't those actually LOSE bubbles and thus be restricted because fanboys would downvote them or report their comments.

[MadLad]

This would definitely be a positive move.

[FullmetalRoyale]

I used to comment all the time, but I've lost interest because of how immature too many people are. Too often I think "ugh it's not even worth it" when I go to start typing a comment that isn't whatever the thread seems to be echoing. I don't use any social media for that very reason. It's been a bummer seeing this place spiral downward.
We also have some submitters acting like this is their personal website, constantly talking down to people, and just being rude about disagreements.
I didn't *like the bubbles because it was very clearly abused, and used like some sort of a class system. I've lost my ability to speak my mind effectively because people didn't agree with my thoughts. To me that system is unacceptable. I don't know the answer, but I used to enjoy coming here and having little conversations with people about video games.

Sorry for the wall of text, I just needed to vent that.

[thorstein]

It's interesting that you say that because I found myself coming here less because the bubbles used to reward us for insightful comments and trolls would have 1 bubble.

I miss Cat.

Perhaps that's the solution? Bubbles. Everyone gets 10. Instead of the old way: Trolling = loss of bubbles?

[S2Killinit]

The bubble system was abused. Some of the biggest trolls on the site had the most bubbles while others did not.

[aaronaton]

As long as it doesn't end up like some American college campus, i'm all for it.

[anast]

What an inane thing to say. As American's are the only people that engage in "PC" culture or whatever else you are alluding to.

[MadLad]

And Canada. And the UK. The list goes on.

What an inane thing to say.

[FirstSonOfKrypton]

Liberal indoctrination is everywhere not just America

[MaximusPrime_]

Thanks Chris

[Kerppamaister]

Good

[IRetrouk]

Thanks for the update and clarification Chris, everyone enjoys a bit of back and forth, especially if it's done in good nature, there will always be things like this pop up when you have a massive mix of people and views, as long as the issues get pointed out and dealt with(like now) then it's all good. You lot get a lot of crap doing what you do, even thrown some myself at times in the past, you all do a good job though man. Fair play.

[Mr_cheese]

In regards to the new submission guide update, what if a site has based an entire article off the back of a devoper 1 tweet opinion? This happens a lot where one tweet is turned into a big article full of nothing.

[Christopher]

Typically that would be treated as if the tweet is the news when sites attempt to "fluff" them up.

[Mr_cheese]

Ok, one more question.

What about when a site releases 7 different articles from the same bit of information because this happens ALOT. for example, an interview that is a few paragraphs gets spilt into several articles speaking about one sentence each

[Christopher]

1. This would fall under the new rule specifically if they're only doing "one answer" interviews like this. That bit is not specific to Twitter, it's any content of that nature.
2. We already have guidelines that prevent multiple SWAS submissions from a single source.
3. We also have rules about dupe news and the like that would likely cover some of that.

[N4realGMRZ]

Finally!

[Father__Merrin]

Bring back bubbles.....

[Felix313]

Bring back the "IGNORE" feature so we can filter out the rabid fanboys that constantly spam the comments in defense of their preferred system.

[monkey602]

The single most needed feature to return

[Morbid Bulldozer]

Oh, yes, please.

[neutralgamer1992]

Yes

[MadLad]

Don't understand why it was ever removed.

[Chocoburger]

Absolutely! The only ignore feature is for Private Messages, but not public comments, so dumb! I'd happily ignore all the annoying cry babies on N4G and read only from the thoughtful / mature posters.

[deleted]

Thank you, this clarification was needed. I'm all for controversial statements from industry veterans, but some of these up and coming indie developers are truly trolling. This, below, is Dynamic Voltage Games, the developer who sparked Christopher's post here. I mean, it's not HIS fault... he can troll all he wants on Twitter. That is his space, outside of N4G. It was the contributors trying to weaponize it as flamebait over here on N4G, so it needed to be clarified what IS and ISN'T news, as far as developer twitters go. I mean, look at this one...

https://twitter.com/dynamic...

[RazzerRedux]

Exactly. That guy's fanboy tweets are not relevant news and has no place on n4g even though a few posters pretend otherwise. If I wanted to debate twitter bullshit like this then I'd be on twitter, not n4g.

[Sunny_D]

I knew this post had to do with that twitter troll. Like what kind of dev talks crap about a system he is trying to sell to? Funny enough, looks like he deleted his twitter.

[deleted]

@Sunny_D Yea, wow, you're right... he did! I have a screenshot of one of his trolling twitter posts....

https://i.imgur.com/NbtICke...

He seriously needs to get someone to work his PR for him. It's one thing if he were posting some of this under his own name, but his studio's name is wreckless. Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo could possibly sever ties with him.

[Atom666]

I don't want to take all the credit here, and it might just be mere coincidence, but within a couple of hours of my Tweet to that guy (which got 4 whole likes btw), he deleted himself.

In seriousness, I did have to send him something. In some weird and backwards way, he seemed to want to use the console wars to his advantage to help market his game. At first it seemed like he was trying to get the Xbox crowd to get excited about the game performing better than the PS version. It seemed odd that he would alienate potential users by saying those things, and not to mention by not spending the time to get his pretty non-intensive game to reach some parity.

But then when he started to talk about Gamepass, I think it became clear that he was fishing for a check from Microsoft.

I told him that, while I understand his general goal and he might partially succeed in what he was trying to ultimately do (sell games), his actions were hurting him more than he realized. I couldn't see any publisher wanting to work with him if that is how he thinks he needs to conduct business.

.....and then he's gone! So maybe my message got across to him. I'm being a bit facetious with that, but I think my comment is also important for "supporters" of that guy to hear too. People earn a living by manipulating us everyday online. It is an industry onto itself.

[rainslacker]

Give it a week. How much you want to bet he tried to illicit attention and sympathy from the community by saying hes being harassed, and his family is afraid for their lives, and some in the media will.eat it up, because they love to antagonize and shame their readers for some reason

[Atom666]

Damnit, you're right.

Now we'll get "all gamers are toxic bigots" streamers and "influencers" quote tweeting him and telling us about the time they were harassed.

[Hakuoro]

Yes, this was my evaluation as well. He wanted to get his game on gamepass by talking negativly about PlayStation then when that didn't work he tried to talk badly about gamepass by saying his game was going to be on PlayStation.

Either way what he actually accomplished was getting on my list of companies to not do business with.

[Chocoburger]

Unfortunately the Tweet was deleted, but it was Sony flamebait crap? Lame.

[waverider]

its easy. Start to ban twiiter comments made into «news»...

[deleted]

Well, I do think there are some really relevant announcements and things made on Twitter from developers. There is no way to categorize a well respected industry veteran from a fresh out of game development school student who has started up their own LLC.

For me, I think Twitter posts submitted as News should require a site article attached to it, no straight linking to the actual Twitter posts. This could help slow down the weaponization of individual, nonsensical Twitter posts from some of these indie developers. It wouldn't stop it, but at least slow it down.

[waverider]

I agree, but people are using tweet like weapons. Taking them form context. Even yesterday was something about a indie game.... omg. That shouldnt be even approved. It didnt make any sense...

[Christopher]

There's a lot of relevant news from Twitter. Announcements for events, video teasers, answers to questions that aren't answered elsewhere, etc.

[Zodiac]

Question about the social issues and opinion pieces - does this mean that someone who write a piece applying social theory to a particular genre or specific game won’t be allowed? Ex: someone wants to talk about orientalism, empire and CoD. I’d love more in depth commentary on our beloved medium and I think that’s where the real meat is. Outside of general news updates, most of the content that gets approved isn’t even saying anything; it’s lifeless.

Gaming is such a vibrant medium and there’s a lot being talked about, yet all we get here is console war fuel. Wouldn’t it be nice to mix things up with some REAL discussion?

[Christopher]

Our guidelines stand on social issues topics and are not changing at this time. It's a broad brush, but it is as such for good reason, primarily so that we don't decide what is appropriate to talk about which puts us into the non-neutral category of the topics being had.

[Zodiac]

Another ex: There is a submission on the trans narrative in the Last of Us 2 that has been reported already. It will probably fail, but the submission where we learn that Mario is actually Japanese and not Italian will most probably be approved.

One of those is a real topic, with real things to be said about it, but we won’t get that chance. I’m not saying N4G should become a graduate seminar, but the bar on quality content and commentary can surely be raised a bit, no?

[RazzerRedux]

The Mario piece is an article based on an interview. It is not an opinion piece on a social issue simply because he clarifies the race of Mario. The TLOU 2 is an opinion piece on a social issue. So there is a difference between the two and a valid reason why one will be approved and the other will not.

Personally, I'm in favor of these rules as this site would be overrun with social politics submissions and no, I don't believe for one second that would raise "the bar on quality content and commentary". Those discussions turn into the most vile I've ever seen and make video game fanboy wars seem tame.

[Tacoboto]

You are right. It's anything at all that even touches on social issues.

Comments here in TLOU2 articles pre-launch would keep insulting Druckman and saying he should be fired, label Abby as trans, and worse. I remember an article about Apex Legends having a gay character because of a single reference in one sentence of one character's bio. One sentence, that someone pointed out on Twitter, that some website made a small article from, that got posted here. Hundreds of comments slamming on the LGBT and that we have mental illness and are SJWs ruining gaming by pushing a sick agenda

That article stayed up. The comments all fully visible and readable.

When moderation doesn't step in, why would those same people suddenly switch their tone on apolitical articles? I just got away with saying an entire population is sick in the head, why not tell Phil Spencer to keep his stupid drunk-looking mouth shut in this article about the PS5 game unveiling event?

[rainslacker]

The guidelines, and mods, tend to avoid that kind of stuff...although I think less confrontational stuff would probably make it through without issue.

Their view is that it's not up to them to curate the article or it's worth as an opinion piece, and doing so introduces bias to the site.

While I agree that's sound logic, and ultimately true, I also feel that sometimes, it's just obvious when such things are trying to open positive discourse, and when they're trying to provoke or incite. Usually it's pretty clear to be honest.

Unfortunately, there arent that many good writers that can approach such issues with care, and they inject way too much of their own belief into the articles, which tends to force a conclusion on the reader.

[Zodiac]

I think the issue with splitting positive discourse and incitement is that content or topics that are only now being talked about more are more likely to be considered provocative and incitement simply because they are newer and challenge “how things have been”. Basically then, people want to only have open discussion around topics they are comfortable with.

I get what you’re saying, though, and I’ve seen it a lot - Almost like hit pieces, but I’ve also seen countless chances at talking about games shut down because “don’t inject politics - real life - into my games” well, it’s already in the game, so might as well talk about it.

On the one hand, many people want to keep games “pure”, but then also want them respected as an art form and more than a simple hobby. If we can’t even recognize the politics injected into games and talk about them, it might as well just stay a hobby we picked up as children, but then people need to own that labeling.

I really see no difference between critical analysis of games and film or television, but for some reason analyzing film and television isn’t controversial.

[Marquinho]

I really appreciate your clarification on the subject.

If I'm allowed to provide my opinion, I have noticed from people I know and many users here that the perception of N4G is that while rules are there, many use them as weapons to silent news, opinions or users that support a certain company while promoting those that favor another company that they do prefer. As a result, the whole site is perceived as extremely biased towards one side (PS in this case). This isn't N4G administration fault, as PS is obviously more popular than other systems, but as the new generation heats up and other systems starts to gain popularity, the resistance to this change has been obvious. I've seen a couple of friends of mine being banned for no apparent reason (I think I can provide proof of at least one of them) and they literally told me "you need to be extremely careful there or you're going to be hunted and banned" as well of other users I didn't even know. As you can see in my history, I've been here for almost 15 years, but the new generation and home lock-down due to the global situation brought me back to posting.

As a result, I've been insulted and harassed countless times and I've decided to either ignore those insults or respond without offending. I honestly have a hard skin and not get easily offended, but that's just me. I think it isn't fair that every Xbox fan have to go through this once they start speaking up while I've seen many fans on the other side acting downright as trolls or being extremely mean to other users and getting away with it. I'm 100% sure I would've been banned ages ago if I followed that kind of behavior.

Not playing the victim here though as I foresee some people may think. Just want to send a message about equality in the site as I believe it's the healthiest way to long last in the cyberspace when winds start to change.

I've seen a couple of important sites dying for banning left and right supporters of an specific system. This creates frustration among other users and perfectly balanced guys can succumb to this frustration and also get banned for saying this or that. It's a snowball.

Said this, I will do my best to continue to improve my small contribution to this site. I.e. I've seen recent posts from that Dynamic Voltage Game dev way before they were posted here, even when he seems to support Xbox, I've noticed he's a Super Troll... so I've decided not to bring those here.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. This is mainly aimed to mods and above but also to users in general. I wouldn't like to turn this into a ball of accusations in the replies as it wouldn't help the direction where I understand this post from the site admin is aimed at. Hope we can all help building a healthier, more balanced community.

Just my 5 cents. Hope you take this into consideration.

[Christopher]

I'm not sure this comment of yours is coming off the way you think it does. It's specifically antagonistic in presentation with veiled accusations.

Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but my initial response is "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, even if more PS fans live in glass houses than other fans."

[Marquinho]

Fair enough. I'm aware it might not have been presented in the best way, but I felt I needed to say it sometime, somewhere and still stand for it.

Said this, I'd ask then to exclude anything related to myself posted above as I might not be the best example for it, but please do take in consideration what's related to other users in general, that aren't PS supporters.

[Hakuoro]

So, your going after people who mark things lame, but not the people who mark reports fixed violating the existing rules? Much less the people who wait until their article is 48 hours old with one persons approval and marking things fixed and thus getting them instantly approved?

Also why do moderators let articles flagged sit in the queue? And continuing that line, articles which then get approved then fail them 23 hours after they have been on the site so often? Users can see that moderators have been active on the site but are ignoring these articles so one can only assume purposely.

And this lame thing really flies in the face of what users have overwhelmingly said which is that they don't want the site flooded with troll articles. Why go after people marking things lame instead of going after the people who do nothing but scour the internet for the most trolling articles they find to try to damage the brand they don't like?

This is backwards moderation, you let users troll as much as they want as long as they can find an article (or have a website to post an article) and moderation turns a blind eye but if users say the same types of things that are in those articles moderation hits them with flagged comments time outs and bans.

You need to take better account of who is posting these articles because most of these articles are coming from one or two people and being approved by the same people over and over.

[Marquinho]

@Hakuoro

You're wrong. People get a warning for marking "lame" reports as "fixed". The only warning I've received has been exactly for doing so. One would say I've learned the hard way.

Also, what some people may consider "Lame", a very ambiguous term, might not be for others. I understand there's where mods take action and what these guidelines are trying to regulate.

[RazzerRedux]

" I've seen recent posts from that Dynamic Voltage Game dev way before they were posted here, even when he seems to support Xbox, I've noticed he's a Super Troll... so I've decided not to bring those here."

But you did. You submitted this three days ago:

https://n4g.com/news/235984...

" I'd never expected a "dev" to start a troll campaign afterwards"

lol...he was trolling in the tweet you submitted but whatever.

[Marquinho]

Indeed I did. I'd never expected a "dev" to start a troll campaign afterwards:

https://twitter.com/dynamic...
https://twitter.com/dynamic...
https://twitter.com/dynamic...
https://twitter.com/dynamic...
https://twitter.com/dynamic...

And that "Atari looking" game he said would run @ 8K/120fps on PS5. I think it got deleted.

Edit: The post I'm referring to, linked to this now deleted tweet. It was submitted by another user, approved and then deleted (which I believe was the best thing to do)

https://i.ibb.co/y8ncdf5/be...

[Obscure_Observer]

Well said, Marquinho.

Just ignore and report those people that will readily attack you rather than discuss and counter your points in a civil and adult manner.

Never see you disrespect anyone. You´re a good user. Don´t let the haters bring you down. :)

[anast]

I got slapped with a week or two ban awhile ago, for posting "xbox sucks" to stir up stuff. I think they ban on intent, not system preference.

[rainslacker]

Yeah. You can say why you think something sucks, so long as you dont attack anyone, or go too far with the hate while relaying your opinion.

But just saying sucks, especially out of nowhere tends to be frowned on.

But on the flip side, if it's not reported, or the mods dont address it, it doesn't mean that they are not applying the rules equally. Just means they arent applying them consistently all the time, likely because they arwbt always here. Each side of the console war has those that think the mods are biased towards the opposing side.

I dont think the mods are perfect, and they do questionable and annoying things sometimes, but in general, I can say they will respond when i tell them how i feel about them, so long as i do so respectfully.

[RauLeCreuset]

I've noticed there is a campaign to "play the refs" so to speak and feel like this needs to be treated as a form of trolling. People complain that N4G is "extremely biased towards one side" while making insinuations about a particular fanbase through broad or vague accusations that lack enough specificity for others to challenge them on the incidents presumably fueling their perception of bias.

Marquinho's post is full of insinuation and vague references, but notably absent are such specifics as the identity of their banned friends, what they said to get banned, and examples of PS gamers being treated differently. People are bold enough to go in comment sections making insinuations about a particular fanbase being especially toxic and accusing the site of bias, but we're to believe they're afraid to cross the mods by citing specific examples? It's a trolling tactic used by some members of the minority fanbase to throw shots at the larger fanbase with the added benefit of maybe getting a few mods to give their trolling a pass if they complain enough to make the mods second guess their moderation.

[Marquinho]

I'm not replying on purpose to some posts as I don't think it would help to the purpose of the OP to start a direct accusation dynamic, but I'm ready to internally provide such proofs if I'm asked for it.

"It's a trolling tactic"

Please don't start calling names. This is exactly the kind of intolerance of which I'm talking about.

[RauLeCreuset]

Marquinho, your OP already made accusations. You can't get your shots in and try to act above it all after you've had your say and done what you claim you don't want others to do in response. I have less problem with you making an accusation than I do your failure to provide specifics that would allow people to draw their own conclusion on the validity of your accusations based on the evidence presented and other evidence that may be pertinent to the accusation.

"...I'm ready to internally provide such proofs if I'm asked for it."

Did you make your comment "internally"? No. You made your comment for all to see. Provide your evidence for all to see, so everyone who saw your comment can come to their own conclusions.

"Please don't start calling names. This is exactly the kind of intolerance of which I'm talking about."

It's also an example of what I'm talking about, whether you realized it or not. Complaining about me "calling names" and holding my comment up as an example of intolerance because I described the tactic you're using as a trolling tactic, in response to a post in which you accuse "many fans on the other side" of " acting downright as trolls," is exactly why you should be supporting your accusations with evidence that can be reviewed against a wider body of evidence. Your conclusions and the interpretations you arrive at are debatable, to say the least, and you seem to be missing the point of what Christopher said to you about glass houses.

[RazzerRedux]

"Please don't start calling names. This is exactly the kind of intolerance of which I'm talking about."

How is pointing out someone's "intolerance" any different in "calling names" (seriously?) as pointing out a "trolling tactic"? And where did that "hard skin" go? You seem to be contradicting yourself left and right.

[rainslacker]

The term your looking for is passive aggressive. Not outright accusing, but intent being clear, although its not always clear to the recipient.

It is extremely common on here. I think I any regular commenter has probably done it at one point or another.

Then of course the ubiquitous, "but I was told that this other thing was the case because that's what everyone said". Which would fall into trying to retroactively validate a prior argument, using extreme generalization.

Also, the accusations of hypocrisy when applied to general topics by citing consensus which may or may not exist based on narratives that may or may not have actually been a thing. These are usually generalized as well.

And finally, attempts to ignore any prior discussions about the same subject that have happened 100 times before, often coupled with feigned ignorance or confusion.

Really the list goes on. But I've noticed these things have been running more rampant lately.

[Marquinho]

@RazzerRedux

You've been flagged as inappropriate in this very post. ^^ And I didn't even report it. Do I need to say more?

You're actually proving my point. No need to get involved into every single thing I say.

Peace. ✌️

[RauLeCreuset]

@rainslacker

Marquinho's reply to my post just a few days ago could also be construed as passive aggressive trolling. I posted the Metacritic score for Astro Bot in response to an article that listed GoT as PS4's 17th best scored exclusive because it had not been mentioned among the exclusives with higher scores. It happened to be the first comment.

Marquinho replied to my comment, "This has been a hell of a generation in terms of exclusives for PS4. Now the generation reboots and it will be exciting to see high profile titles on both PS and Xbox." I didn't down vote it, but many did, likely because they saw it as Marquinho replying to the first comment just to get greater visibility for a post that only acknowledged PS4's exclusives output in order to pivot off topic by downplaying its relevance in the upcoming gen. Then Marquinho and someone else predictably commented on the disagrees as if they couldn't fathom what someone might find disagreeable about that comment coming from someone who will attack the PS fanbase with posts like the one above.

That's the type of stuff that gets spun into claims of being attacked just for saying something positive about Xbox. The attack often being someone had the nerve to disagree with a comment by either down voting or stating their disagreement in a comment section. The 'just for saying something positive about Xbox' often recounted in a way that neglects to mention any context that might undermine attempts to present the comment as purely innocent.

https://n4g.com/comments/re...

[RazzerRedux]

edit: At this point engaging this further would be unwise so removing my reply.

[Marquinho]

@RauLeCreuset

• "Marquinho replied to my comment, "This has been a hell of a generation in terms of exclusives for PS4. Now the generation reboots and it will be exciting to see high profile titles on both PS and Xbox.""

Regardless of when or where this was posted... considering it trolling is beyond me. As for me saying "They probably misclicked"... that's just a silly joke, to cool things down.

Have you considered looking at it the other way around? As in why you feel so offended or bothered about such silly and insignificant stuff.

• "Did you make your comment "internally"? No. You made your comment for all to see. Provide your evidence for all to see, so everyone who saw your comment can come to their own conclusions."

Absolutely not. That would be destructive, not constructive.

@rainslacker

What you're saying is extremely subjective. I respect your opinion, but don't share it.

@RazzerRedux

Looking at your uncontrollable need to post against me here (one of them flagged as inappropriate) there's no need to be a genius to see that you clearly have something personal against me. I honestly don't and I'm not interested on it. So, if you may cool down and be somehow "friendly" I'm all in for it.

@All

I will probably run out of comments here so this might be my last response.

[RauLeCreuset]

@Marquinho

"Have you considered looking at it the other way around? As in why you feel so offended or bothered about such silly and insignificant stuff."

You may be projecting, given how you've overreacted to some of my comments in this thread. I wasn't offended or bothered enough to even down vote the comment. I was more interested in the feigned or actual obliviousness as to why people might be disagreeing with the post.

"Absolutely not. That would be destructive, not constructive."

Your post was already destructive. Ain't no half steppin'. Go in.You already disparaged the PS community here and the site. What was lacking were any details that anyone reading your comments could scrutinize. I gave actual examples in my criticism of you. People can see for themselves what I'm basing my comments on, come to their own conclusions, agree or disagree. I provided it. It baffles me that you would write such a long post without provocation and skimp on the details. It comes off like you're worried you'll be disagreed with if give details of what you're basing your accusations on.

[RazzerRedux]

More contradictions. I was prepared to let this go but your "uncontrollable need" to continue addressing me even after I had bowed out. Fact of the matter is that you have posted a number of times here and I have addressed you directly twice, both times pointing out your many contradictions. And here I am again doing the same. So what point do you think you have made here at all? That you will always find a way to demonstrate your contradictions? You are doing really well there.

"one of them flagged as inappropriate"

And? You've been flagged inappropriate four times in the last eight days. Pot meet kettle.

"you clearly have something personal against me"

Not you. Your arguments. They are full of empty assertions and generalizations as has been pointed out by others. And when your faults are pointed out you pretend to be personally injured just like right now.

"So, if you may cool down and be somehow "friendly" I'm all in for it."

That depends entirely on you. I have friendly conversations with many people here, many of whom I don't agree with often times.

[rainslacker]

@Marq

How is it subjective?

I'll freely admit that all but the "but I was told this thing is true" kinds of comments can definately be misinterpreted as something they weren't meant to be, I don't that the majority of those instances happen to be subjective in interpretation, and intent is usually pretty clear.

I generalized the nature of such comments for brevity, but those things are most certainly happening a lot more on N4G compared to even just a few years ago. I also freely admit that I've probably done most, or all of them at some point myself, so not saying I'm any better or setting some example.

@Raul

I do think some people are really quick to assume ill intent. It also doesn't take much for one person to misread intent, even if it wasn't aimed at them, and react to it, which can set off a cascading effect of more and more vitriol.

And, like above, I freely admit, I've probably done that myself on occasion as well. I try not to make it a habit, but I tend to be pretty contentious sometimes.:)

[neutralgamer1992]

Marquinho

During the Xbox 360 era this site had more Xbox fans who were way more vocal and early on this site was filled with PS3 doom articles and Sony going under

Now there are more PlayStation fans on this site I feel like many Xbox fans use this to play victim card. It wasn't right during Xbox 360 and it's not right now but I feel like lately Xbox fans base has been more vocal again and every article is about 18 percent more power and 12TF(lately it's about Ms having a presentation in 60FPS compared to Sony 30)

The way I see it and I have been here long enough by now most know who prefer one brand over another and we can still have civil mature conversation but some just want to troll

End of the day of both ps5 and series x succeed and sell neck and neck we as gamers will win. When these companies have to work extra hard for our money and attention we will get better user experience, better games and features

[Marquinho]

I partially agree. The Xbox community has grown and become more vocal on the Internet. That's been naturally reflected over here in articles, and hence, comments.

That's been a big change on the site, which has been dominated by PS news for years (and rightfully so)... but I believe this also had a negative effect in terms of balance and tolerance in general.

I do share your wish for both to succeed as I'm sure it will make up for an awesome generation of consoles.

[VoiceMale]

And here we are pretending that the articles are the problem...we should be able to discuss anything regardless of the content in a strict guided manner...displacing discussions of certain topics or titles should be a beacon of how voices and opinion could unite in the efforts of freedom of speech, and shows maturity to credit or discredit readily available information

They never were, it's the fanboyism that is the problem...Christopher You know this, if you guys are serious about regulating this site you guys darn well know the best way to do so is that a better guideline for the users is way more effective than any guidlines for any submissions....after all it's the users that are submitting these articles in the first place...

it goes without saying that for the most part the first comment on an article are from a very strong biases, dear I say fanboy, and is highly likely a trolling and derailing post that never legitimize any constructive decision regardless if the article is accurate or positive

I commend any efforts to promote fairness and less bias, but c'mon this is a futile effort to mitigate any real change around here....ppl troll any and everything that doesnt aligned with thier preferences and choices... and meager efforts are put in place to stop it

you have to manage this problem form the source(fanboyism) and not the source of the article!!!!!

[Chris12]

Well said and 100% correct.

[SegaGamer]

"It's the fanboyism that is the problem...Christopher You know this"

I agree. I have seen it get progressively worse over the years and it is the main thing that drags this site down by a distance. Even now as I write this, the top news story on the site has fanboy's bitching again.

You can almost guarantee that the top stories on the site will be full of fanboys bickering over the same crap they have been bickering about for over a decade now.

I have given up on believing things will improve. In all honesty, I don't really blame the mods anymore. There is only so much they can do anyway. They can ban accounts, but those people will keep coming back with new accounts.

[Marquinho]

Not sure if we're on the same boat here but I'll go ahead and say I agree with you regardless.

[Christopher]

"we should be able to discuss anything regardless of the content in a strict guided manner"

Should and can are not the same. People should be able to drive on the road without endangering the lives of others by driving recklessly, speeding, or while under the influence of foreign substances. But that's just not how many humans work.

"...displacing discussions of certain topics or titles should be a beacon of how voices and opinion could unite in the efforts of freedom of speech"

Freedom of Speech doesn't exist in private domains/properties. Freedom of Speech is about one's right to speak out against the actions of their government without fear of action made against them by the same government in question.

"it's the fanboyism that is the problem"

That's akin to saying cancer is the problem. There's no cure for it. It exists, it evolves, it persists, it continues on. The only option is to shut down access and control who can enter and who can't. This is not what the owners of the site want. So, cancer it is.

So, you're not entirely wrong, but saying it doesn't solve it let alone create a solution for a problem that exists so widely now that it pervades every major social media network and the gaming community.

---

I don't understand why people can't do what they say is best, but they can't. Saying it is easier than the action. I guarantee half the people who agree with your sentiment here fall into the same category of people of which you speak.

[King_Noctis]

I do agree with this.

[sourOG]

Good for you man. Although any opinion can “elicit a negative response” if it’s an unpopular opinion. We saw this with the last of us 2. A negative response from a fanatic should not be considered a “troll”. Our opinions should not hinge on the emotions of overly emotional people.

To be clear my favorite game this year is TLOU 2. The difference is I didn’t trash anyone who felt differently. It’s just an example where this was prevalent.

[GoodGuy09]

The banning on this site isnt good. A friend of mine's account did get banned for simply putting out an honest opinion that was not offensive nor went out of line at all and that comment was then reported by some guy or group of people that were simply furious at the opinion. And he has had that account for years and believed he was being a proper and appropriate user for all those years. Please do a better job at reviewing reports and don't ban them right away. Dont give people the power to ban just because they are angry and have a difference of opinion. Again there was absolutely nothing in his opinions that were ever offensive. I believe it is reporting a comment as SPAM that is what made the account getting banned right away, when obviously is comment was not a "SPAM". Ive seen many comments that have been getting reported as spams the past couple of months. Im guessing most of those were also just opinions that people were just against and furious over so they were reported as "SPAM".

[Emilio_Estevez]

This is highly unlikely.

Spam markings are generally reserved for duplicate accounts, actual spam, super offensive things and direct spoilers. If this happened recently then it was probably the last one as it was very prevalent. And if every comment is spam it was a dup account. Users do not have the power to ban accounts and/or mark them as spam without mod intervention. We take all of the reports we get on users with a huge grain of salt, not blindly accepting what other random users think, as that would be a terrible idea. This was directly mentioned in the article.

"As moderators, it's our task to not just restrict or ban people for having opinions or for just being wrong, but for purposefully antagonizing, eliciting negative responses, and playing a game aimed at a person or group of people and not their arguments. It's also our job to determine when someone deserves a restriction or ban, not when a part of the community believes they deserve it. A task itself seeped in perception bias from every party involved. A task the moderation team wishes they honestly didn't have to partake in, but we do and that is that."

People get reported all the time for having different opinions, if it's not rule breaking then we don't mod it, simple. I like a lot of games that users didn't care for, am I banning myself? Honestly the whole thing makes little sense.

Send me a pm or open a ticket and I'll look into it. Chances are what you were told is not the whole story.

[Marquinho]

@Emilio_Estevez

I'd like to report the case of a friend of mine that I believe was unfairly banned as well.

Sending you a PM about it. I'll hopefully find the post.

[Emilio_Estevez]

Feel free, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. I'm probably not going to be able to give much info as we generally don't tell users about each others restrictions, just an fyi. However, there may be stuff I can point you to that's available for you to see. Generally when it 'looks' unfair, the reason it looks that way is because you guys don't have all the info.

[Mithan]

Get rid of the rating system. All you do is invite a popularity contest on all threads. It pointless and irrelevant.

[iofhua2]

The mods play into it. My first N4G account was banned for over 3000 days because I posted about the Switch having better load times than the competition because it uses all solid state media. Cartridges are just flat-out better than discs. But then I got trolled by sony fanbois and the mods piled on too.

Then you know what happens? A year later the specs for the Ps5 come out, and the sony fanbois are talking up the SSD like it's sweet, sweet ambrosia.

3040 days left on the ban. Thanks you dicks.

Ban this one too if you want. There are an unlimited number of email and IP addresses for me to use on new accounts. I am unbannable.

[Emilio_Estevez]

Literally restricted for calling people sheep over and over and then mouthing off to staff multiple times which resulted in the actual ban. This is the stuff we deal with basically every day. Obvious trolling with no self awareness and then lies about it after and shows it probably wasn't the first ban anyways, perfect example.

[sinspirit]

There's a difference between objective evidence and surface level comparison

On the surface? Yeah, solid state media is better. But, on Nintendo's own site it says 60-95MB's for the storage speed. We don't know the exact specs, but modern HDD's get similar speeds to this tidbit on Nintendo's own site. These SD cards are not actually that much faster. They tend to get about 100 MB/s, and we don't know if this 95MB/s Nintendo listed is the max effective throughput in the I/O.

The big difference is the assets to load in aren't going to be as large, and therefore there is less data to be loaded in, meaning the scene is ready to go quicker. I'm not saying what is or isn't better. But, comparisons need to be detailed and constructive. Not simply pointing out the immediate observation to score points for one thing or the other.

So, did you have a scientific comparison or a surface level comparison? And, in your very comment you're sounding like you are used to getting banned in the digital world. Even when posting truth, you can't go off on a tangent, and make everything a battle and winner vs loser without repercussion from having a bad attitude.

[Asuka]

I've lurked on N4G longer than most anyone here and it's gotten to the point where I just sit back and watch it all burn. However it's refreshing to know that the site administration is aware of how things are and are trying their best to make improvements where they seem appropriate.

[Knushwood Butt]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Sorry, but that just seems appropriate.

[Asuka]

Okay cool what's the problem and how can I help?

[King_Noctis]

You are a part of the problem, Knushwood. Just look at all your comments.

[Knushwood Butt]

@ Asuka

You said you have lurked longer than almost anyone and sit back to watch it burn, so you suggest there is a problem, unless watching it burn is somehow a positive?

@ Noctis

You lurked in this thread and then post that? By all means, look at all my comments. However, Christopher's post is about submissions. Now let's review all your cherry picked, low-scoring LoU2 reviews that you spammed the site with. Is that considered good form?

[SamTheGamer]

Hey Christopher! Big fan. Thanks for the new Guideline, especially this one "or hold onto facts that we don't understand and often misuse ("custom RDNA 2" in general).
" 😂

[porkChop]

Can you guys honestly consider banning Gaming Bolt articles? They offer nothing of value to the community. They use misleading, sensationalist headlines. They intentionally take devs words out of context to make it seem like they're saying something controversial. And they purposely go back and forth to fan the console war flames and get that ad revenue. That isn't journalism.

[anubusgold]

The New NVIDIA graphics tech demo was deleted again and again because console fanboys didnt want it shown.

[rainslacker]

Seems like part c will remove 90% of gamingbolt articles. Now theyll just have to post the entire interview, instead of their editorial of said response.

But I'm curious if this applies to what we will classify as a verified dev, however that comes to be in the situation, if they state to verify or contradict other presumed or possibly even verified information.

So say, company A says they have this awesome feature which does something, but in true to fashion, people act all confused, the this dev b comes along and states that said feature exists but really isnt that big of a deal, or just says they're excited for it.

That isnt really news, and it seems this policy is broadly defined on that point, and open to a lot of discretion on the mods part, and is likely to still be abused by those trying to stifle good or bad comments, opinions, or articles like they do now.

Otherwise, from what I understand as the intent of this new policy, I think its long overdue.

[Sophisticated_Chap]

Thank you Christopher, very well written.

[Atom666]

I think this acknowledgement is a good move: "If you start to use the lame report to try and stifle actual news, and nothing else, it will likely result in restrictions or outright bans."

This is a point I've tried to make a few times. It's important to note that it is not an attack on the moderation team. My complaints are with the community members who actively try to use the rules and their loopholes to push their own agendas and biases (or something else). Except for a handful of questionable exceptions, I know that I can recognize when I am posting a comment that could potentially be "inappropriate." So I have no doubts that the certain subset of users here who constantly use the rules to their "advantage" do so with full knowledge of their nonsense.

Like many others currently active on this site, and some other who have told me why they left, the toxicity and general disruption from some users really hurts this site. That's a shame too. I think the system here is better than other places. You've got moderators who are not just tools used by these "digital marketing" firms and SEOs, and you have quite a few users who bring a lot of good discussions to the table. I watch those quality posters disappear too often, though.

But I get it, you can't stop trolls in a hobbyist forum. I have no problem with overly positive fanboys. I really have no problem with some of the little hit and run trolls either. But that other group? The one's who make me think that their intentions are something much worse, and when called out on their nonsense either have a little meltdown or try to claim that they are only "consumer advocates?" They should be called out and removed.

I commented above about the Twitter posts that seem to be the cause for this clarification. That's just a good example of the inherent problems with the system. Even with limited "approval" power, a group can quite effectively shape what is deemed credible and what is not. If something they disapprove of still gets officially "approved," then they will try to shut down any actual discussion about the topic within the thread itself. Many of their tactics are quite literally taken directly from shilling and sock puppet advertising group's playbooks.

But it's all within the rules and hard to combat. I get that. So again, the message has to go to the community and specifically to those users that your BS isn't wanted or necessary.

[Charal]

Create a fanboy war zone to let those who let rip them self apart on console wars.
Video game is a very dispensable activity that should allow people to release some steam, and not be taken too seriously.

As dumb shooter games exists and are appreciated, same thing should be possible for the comments.

At least it will clear for everyone.

Or build a team to manage submissions with a clear editorial line complying with the rules.
It is difficult in one hand to rely completely on the users for the news submission and in the other and to criticize some choices.

Most are not professional journalists.

[excaliburps]

"LAME REPORTS ACT TO OPPOSE APPROVALS..."

Good! I've seen some people tag a story as "lame" even if it's real news just because they disagree with it, don't like it, etc. News is news. Bad news is still news. Worst case? Just don't read it, right?

[Pika-pie]

Confused.com

[TheCaptainKuchiki]

You could start by banning gamingbolt then if you truly believe what you just said. All of their submitted articles fall into what you are actually denouncing.

[coolbeans]

N4G is really stringent on actually giving site bans. The typical reason usually comes down to plagiarism, but those posing comp. security issues or other special reasons could receive one too.

This ruling effectively eliminates gamingbolt's current trajectory. Just outright banning them without prior warning is outright unfair.

[glopez]

Just out of curiosity, why was hip hop gamer banned?

[cl1983]

@glopez

Content theft.

[neomahi]

It's like talking politics and religion, everyone has an opinion. It doesn't always make sense or add up in our minds, but that's because we're not necessarily seeing it from there perspective. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, defending it, and arguing over it, that's what makes America great and in America that's our right, whether our facts are totally jacked up or not, it's being able to speak freely and being able to freely look like a total idiot in front of our peers as a result and there right to call us out on it. That's America. Let them be Fanboys, let them argue their point because we all have bias, we're all Fanboys of something. A sports team, a religious sect, car brand, whatever. Statistically Toyota is known to be the top brand of automobile when it comes to duribility and quality, but on occasion people get a lemon, ya can't always be perfect. And sometimes a Chevy or Ford you get a really good one that acts like a Toyota, but is rare. But diehard Americans are going to buy cars, that aren't even that American anymore because they're Fanboys, doesn't matter Toyota is more American because they're manufactured in Texas while Chevy outsourced to Canada and Ford to Mexico, last I heard, Dodge is the only one that still manufacture in Hazel Park Michigan. But while Toyota builds durible cars, I don't believe they're the most innovative. I believe that goes to the Germans, personally, every time I get into a VW I'm amazed at all the bells and whistles they cram into those, which probably makes them a horrible car to have to work on. Everyone has an opinion and that's alright, opinions turn into arguments, that's how it goes but in the end, when you pull those two people out of the heat of the moment, they shake hands and are buddies. Microsoft and Sony work that way, it's business. It's fierce when they're in the ring, but pull them out of that and they're dining out at a restaurant and shaking hands, having a drink together and laughing and talking about hinting fishing, they're not even talking about business or tech.

So, while all of this is okay and it's healthy, what ISNT okay is threats. We've established it's fine to disagree and argue over it, that's our right, but it's never okay to threaten someone or cause fear that because they don't see it your way that something could happen to them or they could be discriminated, plain and simple. You have the right to be that kind of a person, but that doesn't mean it's okay or tolerated and you will get banned or even charged for that because um.... That's illegal, sir.

Let people state their opinion, let them look like idiots in front of people, I've done it, Joe Biden does it, even Trump does it, and the American people call them out on it, even if their facts aren't fact. But don't let them threaten each other. At the end of the day when the argument is over and the dust settles, we have a common interest, we love games, we love technology, and we we're gamers. It's that simple, we're the same but it's our right to speak out and should be permitted as long as it doesn't go to far (threats) because it's also entertainment for us, as the community to watch others act like idiots, it's entertaining.

[Ulf]

I have actually been visiting N4G a lot less these days, due to the clearly biased "filtering" going on with incoming news/rumors/opinions. A lot of the best stuff to read ends up in the failed submissions bin, and fails several times over until it's too old.

I actually see rumors fail *because* they are rumors, and are properly tagged as such!

Lame. Book burning was something I thought we all realized was a bad idea. Apparently some folks think it's "okay, when it fits the agenda". It never is -- the whole idea gets up-ended the moment it fits someone *else's* agenda, I guarantee

Keeps your eyes, and minds, wide open, folks, or society will absolutely suffer the consequences.

[Emilio_Estevez]

We asked, people wanted to keep the existing rules so that's what we did. We don't allow from anon sources so yeah that fails a lot of them. But it also weeds out a lot of trash as well. I wanted more rumors too, but the users did not.

https://n4g.com/user/blogpo...

It wasn't even close

And to compare to book burning is downright ridiculous; we're talking about video games.

And this kind of circles back to a point in the article. It's not a matter if you like a rule or not, the rules are the rules.

[MaximusPrime_]

Spot on

[ghostrider32]

We need the ability to block people. Let's be honest, 92% of this website are better off not seeing each other.

[Abriael]

"a generic tweet or single response interview item from an industry professional may not be relevant if it provides no new information, is an opinion and not news on hardware, or is a generic response without any specifications as to how something may or may not be handled"

Thank god Christopher. Best rules update since 2015 at the very least.

[Germaximus]

lol I've seen some extremely stupid reports so glad to see this posted.

[timotim]

Ive been one of those people speaking out lately but let me be clear...I am far from the only one who feels that a lot of suspect situations have been appearing lately. I understand that while this site leans towards Sony and PlayStation by its sheer member counts, that it should be a place gamers regardless of preference can come to, to talk about gaming NEWS! It is called News 4 gamers after all isn't it? My problem with this site is what you allow that isn't exactly conducive to a healthy environment, nor even considered NEWS.

The first thing you do thats suspect as a site is allow "opinion pieces". In the past, this has ranged everything from why one console is better than another, to why one console is going to outsell another etc...lots of time resulting in gamers needing to defend positions. Thats what I'm talking about...you guys put these articles front and center and then act surprised when you breed a bunch of gamers that do nothing but debate positions. I'm not going to suggest that all opinion articles be removed from the site...but why are they on the main page and given such prominence??? They should be off to the side on its own page regardless of which platform it represents. It also shouldn't be a thing that the site looks to promote. As an Xbox fan, I say that with there being a Halo Infinite article on the front page under "hottest stories". Opinion pieces should NOT be valued as much as this site values them. Put them on their own page in one lump and keep them off the main page which should only contain actual news articles about whats actually happing in the world of gaming.

This brings me to my next point. The "heat ratings". Why does this exist??? What is the point of it??? And what determines how much heat an article gets??? Is it YOU that runs the site, or is it based off of WE and how many comments and activity happing in the threads? Are there sort of multiplers added based off topic, key words etc??? Rarely is the most discussed article of the moment ever atop the pile. This is another area where clear bias is shown. I'm going to keep it 100...often times its the PS articles that move right pass the Xbox centric articles to the front of the line so to speak...even when those PS centric articles has less traffic in them. Ive personally witnessed Xbox centric articles with over 100 comments in a couple hours and much activity stay on the second page of the top stories while a new PS centric article moved right past it to the the front of the line with much less comments and traffic. How does that happen??? Why does that happen??? No one knows. Sure some say its how many times we click the article that determines that heat, but come on man...you telling me clicks dont happen when comments and activity are happening in these articles. It doesnt add up, but adds to the fanboy nature of the threads.

[timotim]

I have to bring up the upvote/downvote system? This is nothing more but another way to stoke the fanboy console war flames...the very thing you say you dont want. Why does it exist? Whats its purpose? Often times, all you get is people who are known to agree with a certain company just upvotes anything said about said company as long as its considered positive...this is even if its clearly wrong. Since we as members cant see who is doing the up/downvoting, it means you just get a lot of shadow votes that bring nothing to the conversation. Furthermore...you limit the amount of times we can comment of a thread, but not how many times we can vote??? Does that make sense to you? If voting on comments is going to continue to be a thing, we must be able to see who is doing the voting and it must be limited to a set number per person, per thread. Get these fanboys into the light.

[Christopher]

***"The first thing you do thats suspect as a site is allow "opinion pieces". In the past, this has ranged everything from why one console is better than another, to why one console is going to outsell another etc...lots of time resulting in gamers needing to defend positions. Thats what I'm talking about...you guys put these articles front and center and then act surprised when you breed a bunch of gamers that do nothing but debate positions. I'm not going to suggest that all opinion articles be removed from the site...but why are they on the main page and given such prominence???"***

I 100% agree with this.

But, I don't make these decisions nor do the moderators. I have leeway to make guidelines, but I do not have the freedom to do away with certain content like opinion pieces as a general rule.

I am still crusading for the ability for users to create a "front page" or similar that is tailored to them.

---

***"This brings me to my next point. The "heat ratings". Why does this exist??? What is the point of it??? And what determines how much heat an article gets??? Is it YOU that runs the site, or is it based off of WE and how many comments and activity happing in the threads?"***

That's all you folks. And, comments aren't the biggest effect, it's clickthroughs that are. The purpose of the heat is not aimed at solely giving users the hottest topic to discuss but for non-users to see the most popular news items to click through to read. After a certain number of comments, the heat effect they have drops drastically. N4G is powered by non-users more than any other group. People who never create an account but use the site for news.

As far as why? it's to help big news get seen.

Reddit does it by upvotes, but on a site like this, it would just mean certain news getting hidden and giving power to the majority presence of what is or isn't seen. Going without any system, then the site would be constantly flooded by contributors who want to drown out other sites so their content can be seen on top (aka newest). So, N4G utilizes 'heat' as a means of measuring how active a submission is based on interaction.

This is also why we have submission guidelines on heat abuse by contributors who try to inflate the heat to get their content higher on the front page or into the header.

---

***"I have to bring up the upvote/downvote system? This is nothing more but another way to stoke the fanboy console war flames...the very thing you say you dont want. Why does it exist? Whats its purpose?"***

It's just a way to show agree/disagree without affecting anything else.

People really need to learn to ignore it in general.

Studies have found that when you remove disagree to foster a more "compassionate" and "supportive" community, you increase the opportunities for antagonistic responses as well as greatly increase how often people ask for the option to downvote/disagree with something.

So, it is what it is, but it has zero effect on anything. It's just dressing.

Edit: And, outing "fanboys" for votes won't solve or help anything. It will just be a new form of targeting people based on their opinion and nothing else.

[timotim]

"That's all you folks. And, comments aren't the biggest effect, it's clickthroughs that are. The purpose of the heat is not aimed at solely giving users the hottest topic to discuss but for non-users the most popular news items to see and click through to read. After a certain number of comments, the heat effect they have drops drastically."

But that cant be us folks because again...Ive seen threads with 100-150 comments after 2 hours and STILL getting heavy comments, and as a results clicks and traffic not as high on the list as another article with 12 comments after 17 hours and no traffic anymore. Ive seen articles about a fake console skin higher with less comments than actual real news with more comments in them. This is very strange to say the least. If you want more civil comments, you have to promote the actual news more put less emphasis on opinion pieces, and have what WE actually are giving attention as the ones to be seen more because I'm telling you nothing will change if you dont.

Chris these opinion articles must be devalued in order to get this place to a healthy state. The up/downvote system is pointless. These things need to change or its business as usual.

[Cmoney007]

The problems that I have seen lately on here are:

1. Crazy fanboys that never want to see reason when they defend their favorite console.

2. Clickbait articles on here that continue to add fuel to the fire.

3. Articles posted on here that tells the reader that if you don't agree with the opinion, then you must be a bad person.

[GOODKylePS]

"some things that I think have been progressing unhealthily"

welcome to the entirety of n4g since it's beginnings.

[Knushwood Butt]

Just my 2 cents, but failing articles after the event shows that the submission process doesn't work.

https://n4g.com/news/236036...

This is a benign article, where people are just discussing games. However, if I or most non-mod users would have tried to fail it for the same reason during the approval process, I'm certain it would have been overturned and ended up being approved anyway.

Then once approved a mod steps in and says no.

[coolbeans]

I don't see how that logic follows with such a particular example. Your hypothetical attempt to fail MAY have been disregarded if it was just a 'Lame' or 'Other' one, but it still has a chilling effect to make other users reconsider their approval. All the while, said submission is hanging around in pending for someone like Christopher to weigh whether the report stands or not.

It sounds like you're digging for a con in an otherwise solid middle-ground between user choice & moderation authority.

[Knushwood Butt]

Pretty certain that if anyone that isn't a mod would have posted the exact same report while it was in the approval queue, the poster would have just changed it to 'fixed' and it would work through to approved.

All I'm saying is I see quite a few cases like this, where the article gets through the approval process only to be failed by a mod after it has generated a lot of comments.

[Knushwood Butt]

To further prove my point there are a whole bunch of articles with many comments in each that have been failed efter approval during the last 12 hours.

If 'flogging a dead horse', is a valid reason for flagging an article during the submission process then great! I'm certain it will see lots of use.

[coolbeans]

But that's something this blog & a previous ones have touched on: a submitter doesn't just get to mark 'fixed' on Lame reports without due cause, or they'll likely face submission restrictions. Considering how this clarifies roles & responsibilities, it's reasonable to think some change may come from it.

[littletad]

There have been a slew of xbox articles that haven't been approved because of favoritism. It hasn't been addressed for a while now. Whether you like it or not, as you pointed out, news is news.

[deadfrag]

What we need is actually more and better moderators!!

[drunkenspy007]

There are a lot of flamebait articles on here that serve no other purpose than to get clicks by posting contrary and crazy opinions.

[TheColbertinator]

Bring back the Open Zone just in time for the new consoles.

[anubusgold]

Groups of people attacked that area as well to de bubble all the xbox fans off the site i deleted my original account and left the site for years after the mass abuse of it. It was worse than Neogaf ever was. Even gamespot system wars wasnt as nuts as N4g then.

[TheColbertinator]

Couldn't handle it? lol