Will DVD Size Limitations Affect the Graphics of Future Xbox 360 Games?

From the beginning of time, Xbox 360 and PS3 gamers have been dueling about who's console is the more graphically powerful. In these skirmishes, terms like CPU, GPU, and RAM have been thrown around, but now those folks on the PS3 side of the fray have another weapon in their arsenal: disc format.

[Jamie Foxx]

its already started as RAGE have highlighted,but all machines show there age after time look at certain ps2 games its evolution, sony just thought ahead if microsoft had done the same and included hd-dvd as standard in all honestly i believe with the headstart the 360 had bluray would have failed and ps3 would have struggled alot worse, but as it is now ps3 has the most potential which slowly but surely is becoming evident

[Silellak]

At the time, it made a lot of sense to NOT include an HD-DVD drive in the 360.

It's easy NOW to point and say LOOK, LOOK, THEY TOTALLY SHOULD HAVE, but think about it:

When the PS3 came out at the end of '06, it cost $500-$600, and a large part of that price was the super-expensive Blu-ray drive.

The 360 came out at the end of '05. How much MORE do you think an HD-DVD drive would've cost back then? The 360 would've been at LEAST $600. And at that price, no one would've bought it.

But, if MS had held off on releasing the 360 until the cost of HD-DVD drives went down, they would've lost their head-start jump on the PS3, which would've cost them the console war early on. A head-to-head release with the PS3 would've only led to defeat for the 360: Sony's brand name is just too powerful. The only thing that has kept the 360 as a viable competitor in the console war so long is their year head start over the competition.

So there are a few very, very good reasons the 360 stuck with DVDs.

[avacadosnorkel]

Everybody that bought one at launch would have still got it, they just might have had to skip the Wi-Fi add-on, a Gold membership, and a second controller...unless it was wired.

[Isaac]

Not only would the 360 have been $600, the failure rate would have been even worse, and the console would have been delayed a year just because of HD-DVD, a venture that Microsoft didn't even care for in the first place. Laucnhing alongside PS3 with the same price, a higher failure rate, less technology and a less recognized brand would have forced Microsoft out of the console industry. So it wasn't such a stupid move; however, it does pain me to see how multiplatform games have to be relegated to DVD9 as that is crippling the entire generation.

What Microsoft should have done is sell all 360s with an 250 GB HDD. That would have completely erased the Blu-ray and HDD advantage on PS3. However, Microsoft chose to be cheap and rush the console and that's where we are today.

[rroded]

But fact is b/r is a big factor in all the best ps3 games now. RC/TOD, Uncharted, MSG4 just to name a few just couldnt be done with anything less.

[The Wood]

HD DVD still wasnt enough of a step up in my opinion at that time. MS's hands were tied just like sony's with the rumble. Doesnt mean that they should be let off the hook because sony weren't. The word future proof in itself doesn't make sence BUT the PS3 is the closest a console can get to being Future Proof and the often criticised decision to include blu ray has factored into that.

[ukilnme]

@ Silellak

I agree that MS did what they had to do at that time. With that said though disk space and the lack of an HDD is becoming an issue with some games. I'm still enjoying the hell out my Elite though.

If they can afford it, maybe all developers should make the games to take advantage of the consoles features. What I mean is if the PS3 version of a game gets more content because of bluray then so be it.

Now I know that might not make good business sense because the other console owners may not buy their version if the game would not be equal to the other. It just makes me wonder sometimes how good could GTAIV or Ghostbusters (if it gets released) to name a few could have been for the PS3 if they were not held back by the 360's limitations with disk space or lack of a HDD. Help me understand if I don't know what I'm talking about here.

[morganfell]

To answer the article's question, yes. However, it is not only graphics that will be limited, or should I say have been limited. I say this because Bizarre Creations had to limit PGR4 because of this fact. They were frank about it. Later there was some back peddling but the word was already out.

Issues like this in the gaming world are like icebergs. With icebergs you only see a small part of the ice and by the time you do it is too late. Issues in the gaming world are the same way. By the time you hear about them they have already grown to prominence below the radar.

GTS4 was cut. Not all of it is storage related. Many engineers can run circles around John Carmack on the PS3:

http://www.videogaming247.c...

MR : Personally, I want to show off our PS3 technology. We’re one of the few developers who love the PS3 and have a great time with it. We have great technology for the PS3 and we want to show it off.

VG247: Isn’t it the same for the 360?

MR: We’re running the same game for both platforms but if we made a PS3-only game, for example, you could double the amount of objects on screen that you’re seeing. The PlayStation 3 has seven processors and the 360 only has three, so seven versus three means you can do a lot more on the PS3. We’re keeping the game the same over both platforms so we don’t want to take out any features.

VG247: So is the game scaled down because of the limitations of the 360?

MR : For example, we’ve reserved one whole processor on the PS3 for Dolby Digital 5.1 sound whereas on the 360 you have part of one processor to do that. So we can have a lot better sound mixing and a lot more effects going on at the same time. That kinds of makes us do a little bit less in the game [360] but makes for better audio. If we’re doing a PS3 only game however, we could be doing a lot more. We could be pushing a lot more on the screen.

[The Wood]

yep

[Genesis5]

In a nut shell yes. They have left themselves no room to grow. I guess well see in a couple of years. The author of this article seems to think 9 gigs is enough. I disagree.

[harv052]

Some developers say they can put a lot more on screen, some say it just can't be done...hard to tell who to believe. But, I tend to believe those who says it can, due to the fact it has been proven possible. Those who says it's impossible, just don't like the PS3's "hard to write code for" console...

[The Lazy One]

A developer said that? Was it a programmer, a producer, or a game designer? Cuz that is a bull**** way to look at it. It's not 7 vs. 3. It's 1+SPEs vs. 3. The problem is that it's both hard to get the power out of the SPEs, as well as to accurately know how much you can squeeze out of those SPEs.

That said, the DVD issue is only an issue as long as M$ makes it one. If/When they remove the royalties on the DVDs (they really need to understand that a lot of people could care less about switching a dvd once in a while. For games with MP and SP, you can just put them on separate discs and you barely ever have to switch) the problem will go away.

You have to remember that the 360 isn't supposed to last till 2010. DVD is more than enough to last the next 2 years, maybe 3. Then we all move on.

[Armyless]

You said, "DVD is more than enough to last the next 2 years, maybe 3. Then we all move on."

Not all of us. Some of us were never limited to DVD in our consoles.

[Diugu]

Some already moved on.

[kinggeoff]

TRUTH.

thank you!!! I don't get why people automatically assume that ps3's cell makes it more powerful FOR GAAAAMMMIIINNGNGGG than the 360.

All things considered, the systems perform VERY closely in actual game situations.

The devs in sony's pocket love to spout about how they NEEDED blu ray to fit everything in.

What ever happened to running some R&D to find some GOOD NEW compression algorithms. There are new video and audio codecs coming out constantly...with each fitting more data into less space with less artifacting.

Blu Ray's size is ABSOLUTELY an advantage that the ps3 has. And I love watching BD movies. But honestly, they're not so much better than the HDDVD movies I still own. The audio is where blu ray truely shines IMO. But in the end, the size limitations are only a problem if the devs ALLOW it to be a problem. Whining about space doesnt help anything and copping out just because of space limitations is a true sign of dev laziness

[morganfell]

Lazy, you need to catch up. It isn't MS that makes DVDs an issue. MS can only respond with DVDs. The issue is the expanding nature of games as developers seek to push new limits and offer an expanded gaming experience.

And for the above, simply tossing in a extra DVD isn't enough. That's why Sony didn't try to buy an exclusive with FF13. You think Id is having issues with DVD9? Consider FF13. That game has been in development specifically for the PS3 for over 3 years. Wait until they try to shoehorn that onto the 360. Look, it's Atari 5000. Anyone that is a serious fan of FF13 is going to get the game on a PS3.

Yes a developer (something you are not) said that. They can dump all the physics onto one core. All the AI onto another. Let a 3rd core handle vertex lighting, etc etc. And as we have already seen, graphically the PS3 has beaten the 360 soundly.

Also we have moved on but how are you moving on in 2 years? Getting a PS3? I ask because, and I won't go into the lengthy issues why digital download only won't work for several generations, I ask because I want to see you figure out the conundrum MS can't. Whether it is the lack of infrastructure in 2-3 years or people being unwilling to spend money on something they can't own and trade. They may do it with small expenses but not $59 a pop. And don't kid yourself by saying that without hard media prices will drop. Now that same money has to be spent on infrastructure, service, and support and we all know how MS likes to charge online fees.

With MS having no next gen storage ability, what would you move to?

At the above, it is precisely compression that is the issue. And did you just accuse a dev of being lazy? How does that shoe feel on the other foot?

[Time_Is_On_My_Side]

The PlayStation 3 has one Power Processing Element (PPE) and up to eight Synergistic Processing Elements (SPE).Each SPE has its own fast memory for true parallel processing; that's what makes it different from most. Developers can only use six of the eight from my understanding.

With the DVD comment the disc limits developers to what they want the gaming expereince to be. Like for example Infamous it exclusive to the PlayStation 3 due to disc space. Grand Theft Auto IV took up the whole disc space on the XBOX 360 and I'm pretty sure their (Rock Star) games aren't going to get any smaller.

[juuken]

Microsoft shot themselves in the damn foot. Sure, they have good games for the 360 and XBL is good but this is going to be a huge problem they'll need a solution for.

And morgan, well said. That's why I'm not upset about FFXIII going multi-platform anymore. Square is going to have even more problems trying to get FFXIII on the 360 and I'm sure they don't want to cut corners especially when this game is HIGHLY anticipated.

[dan-boy]

after reading all the comments on here, i didn't realise that over 90% of n4g's members were developers with an intimate knowledge of both consoles. i feel slightly humbled to be in the presence of such learned scholars....and there was me thinking that that the biggest determining factor was the hardware iself, not the storage medium. it just shows you that if ever you need to learn something, just check out the n4g coments section to know what the people "in the know" have to say......

or is this just more blog tripe wrote to get hits knowing that the n4g bottom feeders lap this sh1t up on a daily basis???

[Guwapo77]

I thought this article was going to state the obvious but it failed to do so. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Xbox 360. It has everything to do with MS charging per disk.

So what is the solution...stop charging companies per disk and problem is solved.

[The Lazy One]

You'd think I killed jesus.

The reason I questioned what part of development he was in is because EVERY DEVELOPER knows it's not 7-8 vs 3. You have to compare usability of either to the usability of the other. I could stick 20 intel 8088's in a computer, but that wouldn't be better than a 360 despite the number 20 being larger than the number 3. All he proved is a simple knowledge of integers.

I'm all for anyone who can tell me why the processor is faster (don't actually do it, I already know the pros and cons of both), what I dislike is the comparison of completely irrelevant data to come up with a questionable outcome.

Comparison. the 360 has 1 exterior power brick PS3 has 0. 1>0... it's the same logic the guy used. In all extensive purposes it doesn't matter if there's an exterior or interior power brick, what matters is that they do their job, and how well they do it.

That said, it isn't a hardware problem, and yes it is a microsoft issue. DVD is not limiting developers. Microsoft charging for each DVD is. As long as the game engine doesn't take up 90% of the disc, changing the DVD is a realistic alternative. I understand some of you moved on, as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care if you did. The fact of the matter is DVDs still work fine for games, do they work better than blu-ray? outside of cost, no. Do they work? yes. That is what is important.

[amigaman]

It looks to me that the developer is forcing Microsoft to lower the costs of publishing the game on the 3 discs. Probably internal negotiations failed, so it is taking the matter to the gaming public announcing that the game will look worst on the X360 do to disk limitations. Microsoft may concede, lower the cost, and everyone will be happy. I think that is why they are forcing the issue, its all about the money, there are many games released on more then 3 disks on PC then on any other platform and gamers live with it, on PC you can install the game on HD, so that's not an issue.

[crazypuppet]

I barely know anything about cell, or the ps3 hardware. What i do know is that saying 7 cores is always better then 3 cores is a complete lie. Also the cell processor is a new architecture so the 7 hes talking about arent cores they are SPEs. The cell in the ps3 has one core you wont see a duel core cell processor for 5 years let alone 7. The reason devs prefer the xbox has nothing to do with hardware, its all about software. The development tools that microsoft made are simply incredible but thats to be expected since they are a software company. In the same sense the hardware on ps3 is much more sturdy and well built but once again that is to be expected since sony is a hardware company. I am a developer professionally, and unprofessionally. One i cant talk about, one i can http://www.pinstripegames.b...

[jlemdon]

I think they should've made the collector's edition of games using HD-DVD rather than DVD9, remember the word "Collector" it's a choice to have not neccessarly to own.

M$ said there motto is about giving people choice, the people that wanted HD-DVD should've gotten a choice as well.

[darkness within]

I think that the xbox will be headed for mandatory installs.
Especially with the larger hard drive model and the new feature in the fall update.

[ukilnme]

I hope so but that will screw over a lot of 360 owners unless MS starts shipping out free HDDs to every 360 owner without one.

[morganfell]

Well darkness that sounds good but now MS would be forcing people to buy a larger HDD and that won't happen. People won't do it. What is the alternative? Having to install a different game every time you decide you want to p[lay something different or a friend PMs you and says "Let's jump into some other game? With very little space on a 360 HDD, and face it over 90% of the 360s are 20GB or no drive at all, you download one movie how much room do you have?

Also remember they denied Id the use of the HDD.

[zypher]

if Microsoft wants one if its gamers (me) buying all multiplatform games on the PS3, then they will start making installs mandatory. all i have is a 360 Pro, with about 12 out of 20gb left. i absolutely refuse to spend $180 on a 120gb stand alone hdd. $80 maybe, but not $180.

[Aleshy]

"Developers can only use six of the eight from my understanding."
Thats under linux, under the PS3's kernel mode(not in OtherOS) it has access to all the cores. Wtf is this "7 cores is always better then 3 cores is a complete lie" programed correctly it unleashes shocking power and speed. Not only can you run 8 calculations simultaneously each SPE is capable of doing 2 simultaneous calcs, you do the math.

Eg. You have two large pile of rocks which is the data that needs to be processed and then you have a large crate somewhere else which is the main memory. You have the 360 on oneside and the PS3 on the other.Each core is a man that needs to move the rocks to the crate. Now the 360 has 3 cores that arnt parallel so all 3 of them need to carry one rock at a time. The PS3 on the other hand has 8 simultaneous cores (men) and a leader(PPU), each man can carry 2 rocks at a time, so the 8 men are commanded by the leader(PPU) to carry all the rocks to the crate. 360 3 cores @ 3.2Ghz carring 1 rock, PS3 8 cores @ 3.2Ghz carring 16 rocks.

[Silogon]

I love how every ps3 "only" owner is now dropping their hopes in this "RAGE" bank. You all think just because 1 game us utilising a bit more disc tech to store textures on it's going to change the future of gaming as we know it.

Truth is if the CPU and GPU can't handle the textures to begin with unpacking them on a disc is going to do little to solve the problems of inferior hardware or complicated hardware.

john carmack simply said they have more freedom with Blu-ray, which is true I am sure, but he did not say the ps3 version was going to be superior for sure. He said they were looking into other alternatives for the xbox 360 and that RAGE was even made for the xbox 360 and pc 1st. It is the primary platform of it.

So all this talk about DVD9 isn't too small... Well, I challenge you all to find a multiplatform game that says otherwise. HA and HA!

[avacadosnorkel]

It's already a done deal that Microsoft waives the royalty fee for the 3rd disc on 360.

[AStupidXbot]

Silogon, that's because devs want both products to be the same as possible. Too bad the majority of devs arent using the advantage.

[The Wood]

Do you REALLY think that this RAGE stuff was the start of ps3 fans saying that bigger storage was needed?

Sorry but if we are meant to be playing HD gaming then its obvious that bigger storage would be needed just like EVERY other generation step up. If HD movies needed bigger space why wouldn't games?

What this whole BS boils down to is the fact that MS chose not to or couldn't use a bigger storage and Sony did. I bet you if they both had larger media then the argument would be something to do with read speeds or some next BS and multiplats will be the affected whilst the ps3 exclusives will use it to its full potential and I really think that MGS should of proved this. If you need more proof just take into account that Siren blood curse takes up more than 9 gig on my HDD.

Next gen sound, graphics, needs next gen media

[Vicophine]

I like how you said "multiplatform game" because PS3 exclusives destroy that argument.

[thewhoopimen]

Sure let's look at GTA4. One look at infamous and you can tell that disc space was a HUUUUUGE problem. It limited the available game types in the singleplayer, it limited the polish of the graphics, there's only one city compared to previous GTA iterations. The storage limitation, coupled with the graphical "update" of GTA4 basically made this game a lesser game than San Andreas or Vice city.

[Isaac]

"I love how every ps3 "only" owner is now dropping their hopes in this "RAGE" bank. You all think just because 1 game us utilising a bit more disc tech to store textures on it's going to change the future of gaming as we know it."

I love how you generalize with the word "every", no to mention that you assume it is only PS3 owners that criticize the 360s lack of a next-gen storage format. Also, I love how you are ignorant enough to assume that disc space is only important for high res textures. I wouldn't be surprised to know that you think it would have made sense to make GTAIV on 3 discs.

"Truth is if the CPU and GPU can't handle the textures to begin with unpacking them on a disc is going to do little to solve the problems of inferior hardware or complicated hardware."

The problem of complicated hardware can be solved with skill, and there is no problem with inferior hardware on the PS3. PS3 exclusives say hello, and they are also taking a dump on you.

"john carmack simply said they have more freedom with Blu-ray, which is true I am sure, but he did not say the ps3 version was going to be superior for sure. He said they were looking into other alternatives for the xbox 360 and that RAGE was even made for the xbox 360 and pc 1st. It is the primary platform of it."

And he also said that the game would look worse even though he thinks 360 is the better platform because it is easy to program for. Basically, he is trying to do some damage control for the platform that has fed him ever since he started making games (Microsoft) when he says 360 is better, but the results will probably be so evident that he won't be able to deny it.

"So all this talk about DVD9 isn't too small... Well, I challenge you all to find a multiplatform game that says otherwise. HA and HA!"

The challenge is pointless because developers make games with the lowest common denominator in mind (in this case, it is Xbox 360). However, Carmack just admitted RAGE will be the first game, and FFXIII will be another game. There will probably be several more in the future because these platforms are supposed to be here for a long run. Unless of course Microsoft is set to release Xbox 720 early screwing everyone of their consumers.

However, there have been developers complaining even before the 360 was launched, that includes Epic's Mark Rein, Bizarre (they had to do sacrifices for PGR), Rockstar (Houser said GTAV might be exclusive to PS3 because DVD9 is a limitation and PS3 will have a big install base by then, "One of the problems with the 360, and it affects games like Grand Theft Auto if you think about how much content we put in the actual machine, is the fact that they don't have a significantly larger storage medium than the previous systems. It's a slightly bigger DVD disc," Houser told 1up."), the makers of 2 days 2 vegas (they admitted it is a lot better to have Blu-ray on PS3 especially for an open world game like theirs, Loo comments on the Blu-Ray as a distribution media, "Blu-Ray solves a lot of our problems."), Konami (Kojima thought 50GB wasn't enough so you guess what he thinks about DVD9), among a few others. There's your stupid challenge.

http://www.kotaku.com.au/ga...

http://www.gamesindustry.bi...

http://ps3.qj.net/2-Days-to...

http://ps3.kombo.com/articl...

[TheExecutive]

@ Vicophine

You sir, are absolutely correct.

[gambare]

Soul Calibur 4

[juuken]

I'm sorry Siligon but everyone just destroyed you there. It probably would have been better if you stayed out of the discussion.

[Alexander Roy]

I don't know if the graphics will be toned down, but something ("content"/"qua lity"[i.e. bitrates, texture resolution, etc.]) will have to be cut someday.
Don't even start with compression. De-compressing stuff takes CPU cycles, which in return mean less power available for the game itself. So maybe they can fit 20GB worth of data on a DVD-9, but the algorithms to make that executable again will take up lots of power.

Want to test it yourself? Take any big amount of data (I'm talking about GBs here, the more the better) and put it in a .rar or .zip or whatever archive you want. Now, start a game that you know runs smoothly. As soon as the game starts, open the archive and decompress it to any place on your PC. Switch to the game again. Unless you play a less demanding game, you will see the impact yourself immediately.

We won't see the drawbacks of de-compression in the next few games, I'd say (don't own one, so can't talk about it). But as soon as games come out that really push the hardware (high CPU load), you will see them choke on it, since power needed for the DC can't be used for something else.

[thewhoopimen]

actually there's an easier way. turn your game into a zip or rar file and try running it from there.

[MaximusPrime]

nice image cos its true.

[Pain]

Yes.

want proof? how much dose that HD porn u kids download take up on your HDD eh?

[Sir_Ken_Kutaragi]

Future??? + xBox 360??? There isn't one!!! ;-D

[DevastationEve]

So, why so many ps3 fans commenting?

[Mr Fancy Pants]

Xbox 360 | Dev News | Tech

[syanara]

@1.3 well there soo many ps3 gamers here and I read news from everysection cause I mean just cause its 360 news doesn't nessicarily mean its not gonna affect ps3 gamers

@1.4
you sound a lot like ps3rd the turd a complete fanboy who cant consider the other console because you are so bent on beliveing the 360 is better that you will fight to defend it. in the 360's defense halo 3, gears of war 1, and fable 2 look great but then again so does the entire ps3 library of 08 and 09 games. don't judge a game or console without playing it first. I am guilty of that sometimes but then again it is right to be skeptikal.

[TheAveragePs3User]

i am 13 yearz old, have prefect splleing and knwod for sho tht Ps3 is teh winsz x100029 i cantss wait tisl 2014 wehn teh frist games comeout that s way my mommy can bye me onew!!!!11!!!!!

[rosko486]

It's not the fact that the DVD size limitations directly correlate to degraded graphics. It's the fact that id didn't want to pay for an extra disc. If anything, it's Microsoft's insatiable appetite for money and a companies unwillingness to pay those fees that is affecting the graphics of Rage and undoubtedly future 360 games.

[Carbide7]

i think the 360 would've had a better chance if it had used HD-DVD for games,hence also keeping HD-DVD a reason to stay

[zapass]

but that would've required some balls and vision and the bots would've run away scared sh!tless

[PoorDroids]

hahahAHAHm zaASS, that's funny. I hate you, but that was damn funny.

[silverchode]

yes it will since multiple disks and compression can only go so far.

[AStupidXbot]

I'm A Stupid Xbot, I bought a fixme dvd player, that still uses a last gen format drive. I'm also A Stupid Xbot, for not looking that all games on Bluray will automatically look superior.

[PoorDroids]

yes, but PS3 uses lastgen GPU :(

[CyberSentinel]

That is backing a last place company that is getting it's ass kicked this generation.

Blind Lemmings, Sony WILL BE Humbled.

@4.3: WOW! That list is getting shorter and shorter!

GT 5 full (release date? Lol.)
Siren
Ferrari Challange

I hope your joking about those games!

Siren is an old ps2 game. I know I bought it for dumb cheap in a GS bargin bin. LoL.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2...

http://www.metacritic.com/g...

[Egzekutor]

That so called last gen GPU will hold some good looking games like Killzone2. Last gen GPU ? Please tell me why ? Back up your argument..
Stop acting like a lil child and give some evidence..For now on I only see Killzone 2 and Heavy Rain as being the best looking games right now..

I dont give a fuk if XBOX 360 sold more units.. All i care about is the quality of games that I will be soon playing :)
You xbx fans can wine and cry about PS3 all you want, but i know my console, and you wont take away the joy while im playing on it.
You wont take away that feeling when ill be playing
Killzone 2
LBP
Resistance 2
MGS 4
SOCOM
GT 5 full
Heavy Rain
Siren
Ferrari Challange

Thats all i have to say :) Now you can go back and play your Viva Pinata hahahahahahah while im going to enjoy Siren :)

[TheAveragePs3User]

Killzone 2
LBP
Resistance 2
MGS 4
SOCOM
GT 5 full
Heavy Rain
Siren
Ferrari Challange

I thinsk all these gaesmw will win win whesnd theys do coming out in 2018, hwos neeads gmeas naow anyways? I wood rathr talk aboutn gmaes thedns paly thems....

Farari champagnes will be the bestestsiest gamwse becausees its lets you hasve one care inseatd of trieding to chouse a car.

theirs geamse ewill own teh 360 in 2018! u jst wate and c.

[silverchode]

wow i feel sorry for your parents, it must be hard to raise a kid with disabilities.

[Overr8ed]

Yes it will 3DVD disc cost < money then 1BD. This will make publishers to put limits on how much Data they would put on the 360 which means more compressed files which = Less appealing graphics in the 360.

@ Silver. True, the question is, With or without blue-ray since they want to do DL games which the world isnt really for until a couple of more years.

[silverchode]

this will result in microsoft releasing another console b4 anyone else.

[user858621]

cant believe idiots prefer old technology "dvd" to new "bluray" liek saying i love cassette tapes over the ipod :s.

bluray is the future heres why

1.) there going cheaper and cheaper
2.) audio and video quality is outstanding true 1080p HD
3.) its doesnt get scratched as easy as DVDs
4.) their going larger and larger by the day 500gb bloody hell!!
5.) idiots preferred VHS over DVD and ermmm does any1 use vhs anymore?

[silverchode]

i still do :)

[DreDawgg06]

Probably not, Did you guys forget about a certain platform that uses DVDs as primary storage? Oh that's right PCs...Pcs still have the best looking games out and noone is crying about that? The only difference is the harddrive accessibility and im sure Microsoft's arm will be twisted enough to provide memory in either Harddrive or Online space to cache that way. We will see....

[Alexander Roy]

Not every XBox360 owner has a built in HDD and I bet they won't give them out for free.
Not every XBox360 owner has a permanent connection to the internet. Besides, online cache is BS anyway. Connection dies, game can't load. Your wireless acts up, game can't load. Your on vacation and don't have a connection - can't even start the game.

[Max Power]

that you have to have the disc in to play the game. my only experience is installing them to you harddrive, then again my experience isn't that great, but i imagine that most games are installed once and thats it with the discs.

[neela]

Using online-servers as a cash device! Now thats funny :)

[divideby0]

this is a dead issue....so many developers have been openly vocal about it....YES...without BR or a HD format...games will be gimped graphically AND developers (360) have already complained about MS charging extra for games on more than one disk
Rockstar clearly stated the next GTA WONT FIT ON ONE DISK.

[Vicophine]

The quality of uncompressed video/sound (BD) will always be superior to compressed video/sound (DVD-DL).

[thewhoopimen]

Its funny how sound comparisons are never ever brought up between consoles? Why I wonder.

I still laugh at my friend raving how great bad company sounds. It was clearly designed to make up for the shortcomings of the typical 360 owner's surround sound setup. Ie cheap or non-existant.

[boodybandit]

That is because the sound is a no win argument for one side of the fence. One is clearly superior. It's not even close. I have a real surround sound setup and not an HTIB (or worse) so I hear the differences daily on both consoles.

[iNickk]

I'm not sure this will affect either console significantly, because by the time it becomes a major issue, the next gen will be out.

Hey, i don't care if they keep pumping out games to the standard they are atm.

CUE FLAMING.

[mcm]

I care because I don't want to pay todays prices for last gen gameplay.

I would expect the games to get larger and more immersive, graphics are only half of the picture.

I really wonder what format MS will use on the next system?
Downloads won't be effective due to the lack of HD sizes. Bluray is their enemy.
Either they eat their own words or they will create a new format.

[SkolarVisari]

Dre Pc's store everything to the hard drive and the compression used for PC game DVDs is different from what is used for games since it does not need to be run off of the DVD while in use. (Correct me if I am wrong about the difference in the compression.)

[jerethdagryphon]

pc have better graphics because they can do a full install not just some files they use highly compressed data and extract it during the install a lot of games for pc have 9 gig plus installs + stuff on disc
with compression i can fit 14 gig on a dvd9

as for m$ 250 gig drives in 360s they were far to expensive in 2005 laptops had 40 gig drives max unless you piad atuipid and i think 120 was the upper limit then

also manadtory install arnt possible unless the want to mail every arcade owner a sutible hard drive

if i get a 360 its ofr 1 game and i dont need a hdd so ill buy the arcade

mandatory install wont work as there no standard for 360s you got 60s 0 and 120s all over the show

[kevnb]

the ps3 will have more technically impressive games, heck it's already starting to happen. At the same time, most people would rather have a ps2 than an xbox even though the xbox is much more powerful and uses a hdd. I think microsoft realized this, and although sony will still outsell them atleast microsoft will make a few dollars this gen. Im glad microsoft is around, sony used to be able to win based on almost nothing but third party support since nintendo sucks at making third party devs happy and sega hurt their relationships with third parties by releasing consoles/add-ons and quickly discontinuing support. Now, sony has to focus on first and third party games and as a ps3 owner I couldn't be happier.

[Sheddi]

The answer to ur question is...yes

[qwertyuiopasdfghjkl]

I give answer...

No.

[GUNS N SWORDS]

sh!t, we're going back in time to 2006, talking about this old subject,

right now blu ray isn't making a huge impression on graphics, that's because graphics isn't up to a disc, it's up to the hardware, right now blu ray is just extra space, and while the assistance of a blu ray isn't all that needed it could still be put to further use ,such as 1080p media and HD audio.

calculating polygons,physics,textures,HDR lighting,normal mapping,bump mapping, is still up to the hardware.

the only thing that would really consume space would be a really long game with lots of CGI or HD audio, like lost odyssey or FF13 ( i would also mention gb textures, that would also consume lots of space, but neither console has at least a gb of memory to work with)

[power of Green]

Oppose to the 360's competition's hardware already handi-capping games due to it's inferior hardware?.

[silverchode]

and you base this on what?

[juuken]

Inferior?

You wanna see inferior? Open up a 360 and a PS3 and we'll see which console is inferior. You sure do love using that word PoG. One has to wonder if you know what it actually means, since you like to throw it around a lot.

Wake up and smell the coffee. This news isn't going to go away anytime soon so get used to it.

[power of Green]

Get off me, go to the other zone if you don't like it. I just find it funny how John Carmack saying that Blu-ray will give *RAGE* a teeny tiny edge if MSFT doesn't let them use 3 discs.

I find it strange, article after article is coming out about the storage part of Carmacks comments yet the inferior PS3 hardware and the 360 being better for games part of Carmack's comments were some how over looked.

The storage part of Carmacks comments are being pumped out as an destraction from what he said about PS3's CPU and RAM issues etc. lol

[juuken]

No, you're just angry that the PS3 is gaining some recognition. You can't stand it because you hate the system so much.

I wasn't born yesterday PoG.

[power of Green]

PS3's video card, RAM, GPU and Architechure will handi-capp PS3 games, more than the few games MSFT refuses to pay for, when it comes to disc royalities. lol

Get off me...

LOL anti MSFT media and fanboys are cutting out pieces of the comments that has sparked the recent flood of space articles ignoring more damaging issues. lol

[devilhunterx]

XB2 still have yet to answer Uncharted.

Funny, an "inferior" beating a "superior"

[juuken]

PoG, your comments are so, so, so misguided.
I truly feel sorry for you.

Uncharted says hi.
MGS4 says hi.
Ninja Gaiden Sigma says hi.
Unreal Tournament (looking better on the PS3) says hi.
God of War III will say hi next year.
Little Big Planet says hi.
Resistance 2 says hi.
Killzone 2 will say hi next year.
Heavy Rain will say hi, and you'll probably pass out from the sheer awesomeness radiating off the graphics.
All of Sony's 1st party games say hi.

Don't get mad, get glad! :D

[power of Green]

LOL you keep coming back for more.

This is where these Space articles are coming from to draw the attention away from Sony/PS3.

JC
-"What you can say really quite clearly and not get into too much argument about it is that the 360 is much easier to develop for, it's easier to get the performance out of it that it can deliver, and the rasterizer, the GPU side is generally faster than what the PS3 has"-

-"You could design a game where the PS3 would be the superior platform, but you'd have to go out of your way to do it. If you're doing a game like people just want to do games now, the 360's the better platform."-

"You could design a game where the PS3 would be the superior platform"

^^^ What he means by that is, a dev could spend 7 years making a 50 gig game with the best known engine and talent.

The debate about the relative strengths of Microsoft and Sony's competing next-generation platforms has raged since well before either hit the market, but Carmack is arguably among the best-placed to judge the hardware given his extensive study of both architectures and his driving role in the design of the id Tech 5 engine.

-"If you were doing a whole lot of simulation, you can in theory get more performance out of the Cell processor than out of the two other dual-thread processors on the 360, but that's a big 'in theory'-

-"But," he added later, "the fact that Blu-ray won the format wars on there is a huge feather in Sony's cap, and then we wind up with cases like what we're seeing right now where having all the extra space on the Blu-ray may be a useful thing for us above the fact that the hardware's not quite as good in terms of what it can do with the processing."-

^^^ he's saying Blu-ray is more important for what they need despite PS3's inferior hardware for this game specifically.

[juuken]

And you keep trying to make the PS3 sound inferior when it's not.
You come back too! :]

[PirateThom]

Of course, there's only so much compression you can do before graphics take a hit.

PS3 was built for high res textures, it's why it has Blu-ray and the RAM is split the way it is, Sony was expecting devs to use Blu-ray so compression was kept to a minimum. Meanwhile, the 360's RAM allows it to decompress and run the game, but the more compression, the bigger hit the graphics will have to take to compensate for the 360's memory limitations.

The PS3 can deal with higher res, uncompressed textures, the 360 can deal with compression (to a degree). It's why there was so many PS3 games with framerate issues and crappy textures. Devs were using a lot of compression, like the 360 versions and it doesn't work.

So, when developers start to use bigger textures (RAGE) the 360 cannot deal with it, because the textures have to be compressed too much and the 360 can't decompress and keep the graphics level high.

Ultimately, the 360 with a Blu-ray drive would be perfect for devs, but as it stands, the DVD9 is a big black mark, because the PS3s programming and memory can be worked around, the 360's disc drive cannot.

[GUNS N SWORDS]

"The PS3 can deal with higher res, uncompressed textures"

"hmph" yeah right, 256 of gddr3 for graphics can deal with high rez uncompressed textures, vs 512 of gddr3 unified. (i believe Ubisoft,EA, and 2k said the same thing) http://kotaku.com/gaming/ps...

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/20...

"So, when developers start to use bigger textures (RAGE) the 360 cannot deal with it, because the textures have to be compressed too much and the 360 can't decompress and keep the graphics level high"

right now "RAGE" is a myth, and carmak already said 360's hardware is more favorable.

[thewhoopimen]

Ok... let's take a look at unified memory architecture on PCs. Which systems generally have a shared memory system? Answer: Budget systems.

[mistertwoturbo]

"right now "RAGE" is a myth, and carmak already said 360's hardware is more favorable."

Oh wow, now RAGE is a myth!?!? How convenient! So does that make Alan Wake and Halo Wars a myth too?

Food for thought, Carmack (not carmak) also said the PS3 theoretically has more "Peek Power." Fancy that.

If you're going to quote him, quote everything he says.

[FantasyStar]

As long as Microsoft allows multi-disk usage without raping publishers out the ass for royalty fees, I hardly see this as a problem. I want to say "as long as games like GeoW are made; there's no problem" - however the first game was severely lacking in story and length; you bet that storage space was an issue. In this day and age, when a game can be finished in 4-5 hours without even trying; that's considered a rip-off for your $60. The only difference I see in the 360 and PS3's games is the amount of content that's on it. If 360 supplements its DVD9s with multi-disk usage, everyone should be happy. After all, at this point, I'd rather swap a DVD than wait 1-3 min for a mandatory install every time.

The real question on everyone's mind should be, will the slow 2x BR Drive in all PS3s affect how future games are developed? Because the current situation says that HDD Installs don't show much improvement in loading times over the competition. hehe...

[gameforall]

but this might be the reason Alan Wake has not yet arrived

[McValdemar]

DVD/BD size won't affect graphics as atexture must be in ram to be shown, and both consoles havethe same memory, so, at the same istant, PS3 can't have more texture datail/size/res than the 360.

360 also has much stronger pixel shader power so, with effects, can even give a better look to his textures.

The problem with rage COULD (as we have yet to see these differencies) just about the fact that he uses ONE giant texture and, sice they stream it, probably they can't compress as any games do.

But let's not forget that if he has to stream from BD, BD is half the speed of a DVD... :P
So, I think that this technology could be awesome on PC, but not on consoles.
For this technology on 360 there's the DVD size limit, on PS3 the BD speed limit (or will it force a mandatory install of more that 7GB of datas?).

So don't worry.
Techicnally is just all to devs and PS3, even if have been released one year later, is absolutely not stronger than 360.
It has just a stronger support for movies.
But aren't we talking about games?
:)

[DJ]

Blu-ray is six times faster than DVD. PS3 and 360 essentially have identical read speeds since PS3 uses 2x BD-ROM and 360 uses 12x DVD-ROM.

I'm not going to get into a GPU spec debate, but your theory regarding pixel shading on the two chips is WAY off.

----------------------------- ------------------------

Storage capacity is important because if you can only fit 5 GB of textures onto a disc, then (regardless of RAM size) the developer can only allocate that much space to however many textures they may need in order to make the game as close to their vision as possible. If there's 10,000 textures in the game, on average they can only allocate 1 MB to each texture. Not very high quality, but it's the best they can do.

But if they have 25 GB of space for textures, and the count is the same, the developer can suddenly allocate 5MB to each texture. That's 5x the detail when simply switching to a larger disc like Blu-ray. On top of that, they still have plenty of GB's for 3D mesh data, animation, sound, and everything else that brings a game to life. No need to keep reusing assets over and over.

I know you're trying hard to make it seem as if Carmack and his team are making bad development choices, but it's not going to work.

[thewhoopimen]

Unlike the 360, the PS3 Cell spus can literally handle streaming textures on the fly. Hence, RAM for texture storage isn't as big as you traditionally need it to be. This is also why multiplat developers have trouble.. they're aren't use to this concept. They're used to stockpiling it in memory b/c of latency.

[DJ]

But it didn't become obvious until later in 2007. One thing that's been mentioned more and more often is how short both multiplatform and Xbox 360 exclusive games tend to be, as well as the inferior graphics when compared to PS3 exclusives.

Disc to RAM ratio is very important, and needs to be as large as possible. The 360 has a 16:1 ratio, which means that individual game assets can't be very large, and there can't be too many of them. PS3 on the other hand has a 98:1 ratio.

When a game like Uncharted needs 20~40 MB of textures (just textures) for each character model, and over a Gigabyte of disc space for each level, it's obvious why DVD just isn't cutting it. If the PS3 was using DVD (for example) we would be swapping discs in Uncharted every 6 levels, of which there's 22.

[kevnb]

uncharted has dolby audio, dts audio, and lossless pcm audio in multiple languages. Mind you I appreciate all of that, but it does take alot of space. Not to mention awesome uncompressed cutscenes that mask any loading times.

[DJ]

In fact, I don't know of anything streamed off a game disc that isn't compressed. They do this to speed up load times. But yes, the extra disc space does allow for high quality audio, which is really awesome. It's perfect for both basic users and people with home theaters.

I know some people are confused that Sony would allow developers to put so many languages on one disc, but since PS3 titles are Region Free this can actually allow publishers/developers to save a lot of money. Instead of printing and QA'ing multiple versions, they only need to print and QA one.

[mistertwoturbo]

Yeah I cant imagine what kinds of games we'd already be seeing if the 360 had a standard HDD and HD-DVD drive for its games.

The console "wars" would have been over before the PS3 even launched.

[divideby0]

those who disagree only own one console, guess which one that is

[devilhunterx]

Wii?

[thenickel]

I know this is off topic but did any of you guys here that Bernie Mac just past away?

[DJ]

Pretty depressing. The last movie I saw him in was Transformers. =[

[ElementX]

Haha, looks like God got the last laugh.

[HAZ3]

To all those above. Did you read the article?

Clearly not, as the author clearly stated:

"I don’t think so. I still believe that games that require multiple DVDs will remain the exception this generation. Most games will still be able to fit on one dual layered DVD. Why? Read http://secondstorygamer.com... and you’ll find out."

You see, where I come from people go to a place called 'school'

I know what your thinking........ "what the hell is a school?"

A school is a place of learning. One of the many wonderful things you will learn in school, is the ability to read. Many of you should try it!

[gameforall]

we are giving ours.

[ElementX]

If a game is linear, and a lot of them are, I don't see DVD being a problem. In games like RPGs and MMOs, where you have huge worlds to explore and you can return to previous points, yes, DVD will be a issue. I wish MS had been thinking ahead as far as storage media. I don't think this will be a serious problem for a couple of years, but I think we'll start seeing more and more games on multiple discs. I personally don't see this as a bad thing, if you can fit 8+ hours of gameplay and cutscenes on a DVD. I personally don't mind swapping DVDs, as long as you only have to do it once per Act or Chapter. I think people are used to swapping discs after owning PS2s. They just like to hate and say "disc swapping is last gen".

[DJ]

On PS1, I had a boatload of games that required Disc swapping (mostly RPGs, but also Gran Turismo 2). But on PS2? Nope. I had like 20 games, and only one required disc swapping. Star Ocean 3. Everything else fit on one disc.

[devilhunterx]

PS1, PS2 and Rumble are last gen technology.

[Sven Benoit]

well all i know is this....computer games still have the best graphics to date.... and they still use DVD9....so i dont think it will be the disc space that is the problem...

[strotee]

How many gaming PCs do you know that don't have a hard drive? Exactly

There are many instances to where direct comparisons between consoles and PCs are valid; this isn't one of those times.

[Ali_The_Brit]

Yes, xbots can whine all they want that there graphics card is better, but that dont mean squat when your games are horribly compressed.

pitty.

[HAZ3]

I have another question.

Name one exclusive on the PS3 that can match games like Fable 2 or Mass Effect in terms of 'size'?

By that, i'm talking about the number of unique locations, recorded dialogue, quests, options etc etc.

[HAZ3]

44 minutes and not one single answer!

[BigMassacre]

Disgaea 3. <_<

[StupidTeenagersMust-]

So probably all these:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/g...

And some of these:
http://www.us.playstation.c...
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/g...

[mistertwoturbo]

Having 300,000 compressed dialogue audio clips isn't nothing to gloat about.

But I'm getting Fable 2 anyway, that game seriously looks like it's going to drain my life more than Oblivion did. lol

[Reibooi]

With the exception of games like Rage and MGS4 and the like not many games try to push graphics to the limit. Most just settle for something like the Unreal Engine which while serviceable isn't all that great unless it's in the hands of Epic themselves. I would say that for the most part 360 games shouldn't suffer in graphics except for a few of those games that push graphic's to the limit. By the end of the generation we may see alot of the Xbox not being able to keep up graphically but by that time we will be getting the next Xbox soon so it will be a null point. I'm sure MS will make their own format or start supporting Blu-ray next generation.

[uckitsayitchbay]

Proof FF13 will be a$$ on the 360

[Anon1974]

...Rage is going to look worse on the 360 vs the PS3 due to size constraints and compression related to using DVD, the whole reason we're currently having this conversation, but according to this article this isn't going to happen and won't have an impact on the 360 or it's games. Isn't the whole reason we're discussing this because it is happening, and is having an impact. Does this author really, truly believe this is the only time this will happen? Dude...

[GUNS N SWORDS]

as other writers have already asked.

"will ram limitations affect the graphics of future ps3 games ?"

and we will continue to say yes, as they will continue to say yes

and yes they will continue, and yes we will continue.

and the retaliation will still continue till we get bad legs and walk with canes, ( and when that day comes you better watch out cause i'm going use my cane like an iron base ball bat)

[StupidTeenagersMust-]

360 games have looked the same for the past year. And PS3 games keep improving exponentially. If there's a memory issue, no one's seen it yet.

[jerethdagryphon]

ok data tranfer rates

16x dvd =8,910 to 21,600 Kbyte/s
2x blueray=72Mbps

so kilobytes and mega bits time for math we will convert both into megabytes per second

dvd=21.09 megabytes per second
2x bluray=9 megabytes
dvd is faster but speed isnt everything
organization is more important then raw speed
also when bluray hits 4x it will beat current dvds , but thats irelevent

a dvd reads at differnt speeds across the sdisc a bluray is contant

concerning 512 unified ram
find me a laptop with 512 shared that beats a dedicated 256 card
both machines had 512 ram (360 hhas 10mb dram more for something)

one splits it for extremly fast xdr ram the other shares it between gpu and cpu meanin if both need lots of ram at once you got problems

[percephone]

You forgot to take into account that DVD read data faster or slower depending on which sector the data is on but BR has a CONSTANT bit.

To really see the difference between the two, you'll need to use the average bitrates of both and i can't be bothered to calculate/research it now.

[Diugu]

Next question, please.

[Zizo_ha]

Its affecting this gen games for sure the compression makes me sick i really hate it when u have limitation to develop a game imagine gears of war with bluray how it could be ??? . I feel that we won't have a problem with the multiplatform games when the xbox solve its issue with the size limitations and dats the biggest reason i love the exclusives becuz it dosen't have to limit itself in benefit of another console .

[IaMs12]

but if MS launched a year later with the PS3 they wouldnt have rushed it therefore RROD might have been eliminated and the PS3 and 360 would be a very equal contender it power they may have upgraded it in that time being... its MS 2nd console give them time 3rd time is always the charm as they always said lol but in SONY's case it was the PS2 lol

[Egzekutor]

You see developers are getting more friendly with their consoles.. They start to uncover how to code on both consoles.. As they get more friendly with it, they will use more space on those discs..
I dont know why they dropped HD DVD, because then they could make better games.. But it also depends on the developer if they choose to polish the games..

Games that look like Gears of War, Call of Duty 4, Killzone 2, Heavy Rain are a fuking masterpiece.. All games that come out now should look like them , at least like Call of Duty 4. Games that look like PS2 generation on PS3 are a fuking joke to me.. I didnt buy my PS3 to look at games like RSV2 or UT3..

They should start spending more time on those games, and making them look better. Its all because they rush those games, they get a deadline and it has to be done quickly in order to get those $$$.
If they spent at least 1 more year on each game, there wouldnt be issues like GTA 4 freezing the whole console. Those games wouldnt have to be patched..

Its a joke to me that a game comes out to the public unfinished and they need to patch it.. What if someone doesnt have enough space on their console to download the patch..?? And the thing that pi.ss.es me off the most is developers like Infinity Ward delayed those patches for soo fuking long that i lost my interest to play their great game. Eventually the patch did come out but it didnt fix the most issues that the crowd asked for.

Those games should be worked on a lot before they are put on sale.

[psgamer]

heres what i think:

the fact that sony wants a ten year life cycle for the ps3 meant that they had no choice but to add bluray. I think we can all agree that bluray will become standard well before 9 years from now.This also completes the all in 1 media center sony invisioned.

mgs4 is the best looking game released to date. the fact is that if they compressed it, the game would have looked worse. But they were close, bluray was just enough. it may be true that they wanted attention, but it may also be true that they wanted the game to look and sound better.

no compression and more space available is great, and the edge is there, but in the end it depends on the developer, and the game. whether or not we'll be seeing more games like this is still a question. But imo multi-platform games will not be the answer to whether or not blu-ray was the way to go, its all about exlusives this gen.

keep in mind though, ms could care less. they're going to be releasing a new console in 2-3 years (i hate that btw) b/c they know they can money off of it. it also shouldnt be a matter to discuss for people who only own the xbox 360 seeing as how only exlusives will be taking real advantage of hardware this gen-exluding rage and rpgs (blu-ray wise).

[Atomic]

actually , the RSX is better because it has double the bandwidth of the one on the 360 , and it can do directx 10 effects.

[PoorDroids]

LOL OK.

[Thoas]

This article is about disc space not about GPU's tard.

http://i289.photobucket.com...

http://i289.photobucket.com...

http://i289.photobucket.com...

[CrizzleC24]

Well did it limit the ps2's graphics?No, Shadow of the Collosus proved that point quite well.

The Xbox 1 vs Ps2 always held xbox as the victor graphically, but games wise Ps2 triumphed with the 1 1/2 year lead(sound familiar?).

What people dont look into is what the Ps2 did once microsoft abandoned the xbox 1 and Ps2's only competition was with the gamecube.

Playstation released some of the most marvelous graphical advances beyond what could ever be imagined possible(GOW 2,Shadow of Collosus).

Whats happening right now is simple, xbox and Ps3 have switched places, Xbox 360 is all about the games (and beating Ps3 in most compairisons to boot!).
But Xbox 1 was all about the graphics. Ps3 is all about the graphics, but Ps2 was all about the games.

So really to "hate" on the 360' is to hate on yourselves and completely disown your ideals which you held for the last 6 years, thusly making you hippocritical.

I will give bubbles to anybody who (intellegently) proves me wrong(if you can, or care to have bubbles anyway).

READ THIS WHOLE COMMENT OR DONT COMMENT ON IT AT ALL!(you will appear very stupid if you just glance at some key words then comment).

[psgamer]

what your saying makes sense to some extent. But you also have to consider that xbox 360 wont be in the market as long as the ps3. Will they "switch back" once the new 360 is released? Also, alot of the xbox 360 games can also be found on the ps3 in addition to the fact that sony owns an amazing amount of studios (over 30!) with most of them working on ps3 games (ALOT of the amazing ps2 exlusives came from here).

I found some truth to your statement though considering the xbox 360 also has a number of exlusives and the fact that there will always be games for the system considering the install base.

[CrizzleC24]

An educated answer to a question!!!!(it was a question?...no more of a request i guess....)

Very true and as promised I will give you a bubble and agree(if that means anything to you).

Also I mean nothing offensive by using the phrase sony fanboy, there just isn't another word for a "pro-solo-console" owner.
(Maybe Ps3 user?)

[yanikins111]

wasnt the game cube also graphically more powerful than the ps2?

Id put the original xbox's failure down to the fact that no one knew about it. Obviously Sony dont have that problem this gen. The xbox was also ridiculed for its controller design, for its size and was looked upon negatively because you couldnt watch dvd's on it unless you purchased an add on remote. The ps3 has none of these issues. Its the same well known controller design from 10 years ago, which might be getting boring for some but has been proven by over 150 million console sales (including DS psx-ps1), its sexy as sh*t, and instead of not being able to play current gen media out of the box, can play next gens media out of the box. Believe it or not, public perception matters.

The ps3 also doesnt have the problem of devs not supporting it. Sure there are alot of multiplats, but few devs actively refuse to make games for it. Now look at the dreamcast/xbox. There is your deciding factor.

[mistertwoturbo]

Like the above poster said, there is some truth to your statement. But this generation seriously cannot be compared to the last generation. There's too many other factors involving everything.

For one, the 360 has great graphics, a huge library, and an online service that most tout as the greatest online gaming service available. But the 360 is now hindered by it's hardware, in terms of no standard HDD in all SKUs, and of the DVD9.

So you say that the great games of the last generation like SotC, GoW1+2, etc. wasn't held back by the DVD. True, you know why? Because DVD was the biggest storage medium available last generation! So that argument is moot.

Up til now, developers for the 360 have given us great great games even restricted by the non-standard HDD and DVD. But as games become more and more complex, they will need more space. One thing people ALWAYS almost forgets, is that "HD gaming" isn't just pretty textures. But SOUND is taking up a lot of space as well.

We may not see 1080p @60fps being the standard for PS3 games for a long time, but we may start seeing uncompressed 7.1 surround sound much sooner. And that takes up a lot of space as well, and I'm going to bet that the 360 won't be able to do it just because of space restrictions.

And going back to what I was saying about this generation being different. The PS3 isn't just about graphics. You know all those games that you were touting as beautiful and awesome in the PS2 generation? They're making the same leap onto the PS3 eventually. One being God of War III, and the Team ICO game that people are so anxiously waiting for. The gameplay will be there PLUS the graphics.

The fact is that the PS3 is leading the charge of the new storage format Blu-Ray, just like what PS2 did with DVD.

Carmack and id are just now the tip of the iceberg for proving that the DVD is starting to show it's limitations. Something that people knew all along. It's inevitable.

[CrizzleC24]

Uh-oh I said everything in the title........hmm.......how awkward................Oh well, here's something I just thought of, I cannot afford 7.1 and 1080p television on a "College budget" HD isnt all that big of a difference to me yet, instead of making the image sharper, make it look better (killzone 2 prime example of better visuals). You could make the biggest HD game of Pac-man, but if its still "pixely" then there is no effect.

[Egzekutor]

AHhahahahahhahaha

http://i289.photobucket.com...

[TheAveragePs3User]

i loves pokehmans too!!!!! my favoritwse is snorlaX he eats bannanzas!

[enjoi187]

lol Graphics are nothing...its the game play....true gamers know this for any system.....and dont disagree , if you do your a retard .and no it will effect nothing.

[yanikins111]

umm, wrong. Kinda.

For us real gamers, graphics are not everything. That being said, things do have to progress at some stage. GeOW as a top down 8 bit shooter would have sucked ;)

And really, most people who buy games look at the back of the box and go wow, that looks cool . Ill buy it.

I was much the same. I played saints row, and never touched san andreas because i simply couldnt go back to those lego looking cars and nil textures. And im not a graphics whore by any means.

[mistertwoturbo]

"let’s go back to watching those fanboys verbally abuse each other"

That's why I came here to the comments section.

[enjoi187]

why because the graphics arent as good.......im sure FF7 will still be better than 13 and ff7 graphics where off the wall? So if you own a ps3 and your dishing ff13 on 360 for its little tiny difference in graphics...your a idiot

[DevastationEve]

So, why many ps3 fans commenting?

[SmokingMonkey]

BluRay/ or some other type of high capacity disc and Hard drive is essential for next gen gaming.

I suggest get a console that has both.

[BLUR111]

yeah the 360 needs more space on there disk so u can see 8 hours of cinematics like mgs4
:/

[PoorDroids]

pwnage

[stonedog]

Size of media so what. I have both the 360 and PS3 and overall I am happy with both systems. B-ray does give greater storage capacity than DVD but the load times are horrendous. I find load times with MGS4 and Resistance irritating; I do not experience this level of irritation with the 360. I assume that this is due to the slower read time of the B-ray drive; then again the 360 drive is noisy and the B-ray drive is not. Ultimately this is a pissing contest and Sony is trying to create penis envy. Having both systems I can honestly say that b-ray is great for movies but not so great for games b/c loads times are irritating. I really do not see any gaming advantage to b-ray in terms of graphic both systems produce awesome graphics. Also with the movement towards games being put on the hdd this whole issue appears to be redundant

[stonedog]

How do I get two disagrees, are you telling me that I don't know what I am experiencing. I said I find load times on PS3 annoying and they are I also said that 360 is loud. This is not fan boy crap but the opinion of a consumer who owns and uses both products

[Joker2Dope]

My god I wish ppl would grow the hell up and shut up about all this sh!t. who cares games about having fun not squabbling about who's got the best graphics, graphics don't make games you idiots gameplay does why do you think the wii trounces all sales everywhere, and guess how many processors they got. O an if you can fit games like oblivion, Mass effect with the best facial graphics thus far. And oblivion with all its environments and its enviroments scaling up to the size of great britain or something in actual size, the problems is your poorly engineer game codes who can't wright code efficiently enough to put it on a disk. And games like crysis on a single disk explain that smart ass... huh crysis has best graphics ever with most effects and im playing it on one disk right now....hmmm 1 disk. that not any computer can even play on very high settings seamless including your chit for software, support non ease of use, 2.4 crap PS3 software. crap trophy coping, can't play music while playing a game, lame ass force feed new format, didn't ask for DVD player. F-U

[na2ru1]

think before u speak

[ChickeyCantor]

it only depends on how good compression techniques are going to become.
Good compression wont be different on the eye than a non-compressed image.

[Xbox is the BEST]

did you get a disagree?

[ChickeyCantor]

Welcome to N4G-
Where Fanboys can't think rational.
(XD that should be the slogan of this website)

[percephone]

As long as the compression is lossless, there is no degradation of quality at all but decompressing use CPU power. If you're in a single threaded environment and you want to use your CPU for other thing at the same time than you are decompressing your data coming from your DVD. There will be a performance hit.

There was an article on gamasutra on this. http://www.gamasutra.com/fe...

[SmokingMonkey]

is essential for next gen gaming....want proof?
imagine a huge sandbox/openworld game (gta) where the city is so huge, and the graphics and physics are even bigger, that it simply wont fit on a last gen dvd. So you swap discs right? wrong! you would have to switch disks after you drove over the bridge, or flew over the mountains, or entered the complex. Yes loading sucks, but not as bad as disc swapping.

[ReBurn]

But how do we know that's true? I doubt we'd ever see that scenario in this generation simply because of the production costs of a game that massive. Look at GTA IV. That game cost Rockstar $100 million and it all fit on one DVD on the 360.

[SmokingMonkey]

with bluray and/or a hard drive and a lot of time, it may be possible.

if gta4 was a PS3 exclusive than they could of added jets and tanks and taxi cab/ambulance missions.

[SkolarVisari]

Of course disc size limits the graphical quality of a game the reason this "wasn't an issue" on the PS2 was because the important consoles both used the same format. There wasn't this overwhelming imbalance between the two that could lead to significantly better textures on one console over another. To even say that it did not affect last gen games is just a way to demonstrate your own ignorance. Microsoft's problem with the Xbox 1 was that they not only forgot to build a brand identity (First party titles other than Halo) they quit on the machine too soon.

As for the 360 being all about games I find this hilarious since most of the 360's games are also on the PS3 or PC. Once again Microsoft does not understand the meaning of brand identity. All they are doing right now is highlighting their own weaknesses as it relates to their main competition. It's not positive news if the big story for Microsoft is that FF13 is multiplatform, it just shows how empty their portfolio is. You know what would have kicked more butt at E3 for Microsoft, a Halo 4 announcement or even a KOTOR game exclusive to the 360. Ask yourself where the heck is Jade Empire 2? Instead we get Too Human which is rumored to have one million preorders...............How do you have a rumor about preorders? You either have that many preorders or you don't; I've never heard any other game have rumors surrounding the number of preorders it had have you? Xbox 360 news should be dominated by exclusives like Too Human (Not rumors about preorders for the game mind you.) and Fable, and Alan Wake. Not "Ohh look we gots the same games the PS3 does! Try to forget about our inferior spec load out that needlessly cripples developers, and our ridiculous pricing mechanism for our store not to mention charging you for P2P networking."

If the 360 was about the games why are there two different units without hard drives? Why cripple the console like that if the 360 is about the games? Microsoft has apparently just figured out that allowing games to be installed on the hard drive is a good idea, but the problem is those useless core/arcade units. While installing games will make games load faster the quality in terms of graphics and audio won't change due to this choice. If they were really about the games they would have done this from the beginning and never even made the core/arcade.

Microsoft is about scamming their customers (Granted all companies do this but lately Microsoft has been really bad.) as is evident by the existence of the core/arcade unit and their insistence on using proprietary hard drive technology and over pricing it. When you look at Xbox Live you see that they have managed to convince a few million people that it is good to pay for the privilege to play games online even though the quality of the online experience is exactly the same as it's main competition. People constantly say XBL has better features than the PSN however the features that they mention really have nothing to do with the XBL network and are really just properties of the 360's core software. These features would still work just fine if Microsoft did not charge you a dime for playing online.

The XBL point system doesn't even make sense unless they are trying to hide the real cost of the items available in the Market place. I can find an Xbox copy of Jade Empire for 6.25USD on Amazon before shipping, it would be about nine dollars if I just went to a gamestop and picked it up, yet Microsoft wants to charge you and I about fifteen dollars for a game that can be obtained for maybe half that price! Microsoft doesn't want anyone to know that they are screwing them on the prices so they invented this point system to obscure this fact from people in order to get them to spend more money overall. Looking on the Xbox website I see that I can't even purchase 100 point increments which means that if I had 1000 points at all I would end up spending 6.25 to get 500 points when all I need is 2.50 worth of points to actually get the game, I would have over spent by something like 3.75USD which I could be using for gas money or even lunch.

If I had no points at all it just becomes ridiculous since I would end up spending 18.75USD for a game I can get for a little over a third of what I would need to spend on points. It gets even worse when you notice how 2000 points are 25USD and think about how that pricing plays mind games with the consumer. Someone who does not really think things through will jump at the 2000 point option for 25USD and over spend by almost four times!

Now before one anyone complains I can point to similar ripoffs on the part of Sony's video store Xam'd:Lost Memories will cost you something like 104USD if you download all 26 episodes in HD and keep in mind this is a RENTAL! For a comparison typically Anime that run 26 episodes might run four or five discs when you get a box set give or take a few dvds. I can order the first season of Heroes on blu-ray for about 70USD and that is five discs! An HD rental should not end up costing anywhere near the same as it might cost to actually own the Blu-ray outright.

At the very least Sony does charge you the real amount of money for a given item which it makes it relatively clear just how much they are ripping you off for; and the ripoffs seem to be contained to the video store rather than being a fairly common place all over the store.

Using funny money to obscure just how much you are paying for something isn't what I would call being about the games or the gamers. Just as I don't see having a void with respect to first party titles, and a console permanently crippled because of bad choices in the design as being all about the games, topped off with ripping off people for online play.

[quiquitos]

i agree with you 100% 360 isnt about the games and never will be, with "exclusives" being released on the pc what is the advantage of owning a 360 over a high end pc if the pc counter part of every game ever released on the 360 always looks better. Sure you might say its expensive but you dont have to buy the best of everything a medium spec pc will run the game just as well.

Now having non hdd 360s is just plain retarded because they went a step back from the original xbox trying to make a quick buck releasing a rushed unfinished product and a last gen dvd drive and not a hd-dvd drive or better, but before you say anything like "Micro$oft never intead hd-dvd to win the format war" why in the world would you realease a console with no hdd and say that the future is downloadable media and thus excluding arcade or core 360 owners.

just for any 1 saying dude you are such a sony fan no im not i had 360s, two cause the first died on me, because of the good games coming out every month or so but then i realised for me it was just plain stupidity having a console that had no real exclusives (the only ones i can think of are halo 3, ninja gaiden 2, forza 2 and too human), contemplating in the fact that it has all the games the ps3 has and not a pc or a ps3 which is all about the games.

If history repeats itself once again which it might micro$oft will kill the 360 before its life span is really over due to poor desing choices and release another unfinshed product in the market just to get ahead of sony's next gen console and as a result killing its brand indentity.

[ReBurn]

There's more to it than the size of the storage medium. There are several variables that contribute to the quality of on-screen images. The size of the frame buffer, the amount of video RAM, the type of compression used for textures...there are many pieces to that puzzle. Streaming uncompressed textures from storage and shunting them through memory can be costly from a resource perspective, so not all PS3 games are going to have uncompressed textures.

I won't be surprised if there comes a time when one console eclipses the other visually and we start seeing multiplat games look noticeably better, like with the Xbox and PS2 last gen.

[SkolarVisari]

Very true.

[Enigma_2099]

... and it will be downplayed as long as they can get away with it.

[DFresh]

It's more than DVD space and compression it's the processing power.
PS3 exclusives have already blown away anything that we are seeing in the gaming industry.
The problem w/ the 360 is MS didn't really build this console as a long term console.
360 was built to compete w/ the PS2 and without realizing it Sony already released their console the PS3 along w/ Nintendo releasing the Wii.
I know that more future games will require more DVDs in order to compete w/ the rising power and growth of the PS3.
Sony is in it to win and are here to deliver the best entertainment in the long run and w/ every single console they produce they always give it their all.
360 is the now PS3 is the future!
Nuff said.

[dkgshiz]

Your an idiot if you don't upgrade to Blu ray. Why stay with a dead tech. Face it stupid bots, DVDs are ass.

[psycho360]

Considering 100% of PC games are shipping on dvds and more movies being sold on dvds you really are an idiot. DVDs are here to stay for few more years. MS was smart not to use any HD format in the console as it would not be required for fun games till 360s replacement in another 3 years.

[zo6_lover27]

But ALL pc's have hard drives, and require the "dreaded" install, something that can't be done on the 360.

[psgamer]

anyone who only has an xbox 360 shouldnt care for this at all imo. its exclusives that will show us if blu-ray was the right way to go or not. i dont think coincidents like these will happen alot, they will only happen for big rpgs.

[psycho360]

More AAA, AA, A games on a DVD9 consoles than 50GB BD console. Case closed.

[TheAveragePs3User]

Killzone tu will bee the beast games ever!!!!1111!!!! I nevr6 plaids it but i now cauze my dad owneas sonny and he showed me!!!111!!!

[Marty8370]

Storage space is a huge 360 problem, be it DVD9(7Gb Useable) or lack of standard hard drives in all SKU's. Also 360 users don't have a easy upgrade path, too cheap large capacity standard 2.5in hard drives like PS3 users have. So 360 mandatory game installs is a bad idea as not all SKU's have standard hard drives. Also installing 7Gb for every game will soon eat up storage space of 20Gb/60Gb/120Gb. With no option to upgrade 360's above 120Gb hard drives this is a huge disadvantage.

As 'Rage' is proving Blu-ray gives PS3 a huge advantage as less compression is required, therefore better quality textures can be achieved.

[mjones1994]

Sony was right to put in blu-ray now he can understand the high price

[KiNg_TED_PRIZE]

compression and compression .. rage said it .. even sam houser from rockstar games said it!! http://www.gamespot.com/ps3... ... see in the long run developers won;t worship the 360 for its easy to develope machine but they will cry about disk space!! .. i don;t know i have not touched any xbox yet 1 or 2. maybe microsoft should have including hd dvd inside there machine but again that would mean win lose thing!! heres why

*hd dvd with xbox360 = price tag strong as ps3 or probably more!!! 600 to 500 !!!

*RROD = massive 360 hardware failures with hddvd included machine that would mean microsoft lose alot of money!! and i mean alot!!

*i really think if microsoft included hddvd with 360, it would have destroyed bluray!!! you know why ? cuz sony came a year after!! install base of the ps3 saved bluray!!

ps. 30 VS 30 this holiday only place to play is resistance is PLAYSTATION3.. PLAY BEYOND... FOR THE 360 OWNERS ...JUMP IN GEARS AND JUMP OUT FAST!!

[pow3r of t3h c3ll]

stupid M$ with their last gen tech!

they are gonna ditch their RROD 360 when they bring out the 720 and screw all you stupid xbox owners again!

[James64619]

If Microsoft release some bigger hard drives for the xbox 360 at a cheaper cost then the size limit wouldn't be that much of a problem cause the new update coming soon lets you put your games on the hard drive I saw a video and it didn't take long to put the game on the hard drive so if they release a game with multi discs then we put it on the 360 the problem is solved.

[Pinionist]

Yes, it will. Move on.

[Mark]

No, 99.9% of games still fit on a DVD. Just because 0.1% don't, doesn't make blu-ray a necessity.

[SkolarVisari]

Yea we should all look forward to them "fitting" like Mass Effect did what with it's mysterious inability to load itself without pathetically bad frame drops and the most horrendous pop in I have ever seen in any console game ever. It's not pretty when you see textures pop into existence the way Mass Effect tended to. It's a needless black mark on an otherwise good game. I will be interested to see how the hard drive install will affect that game. If hard drive caching or a Blu-ray drive can prevent Mass Effect from happening the way it did, it should pretty much prove that such things are indeed needed. Let's not forget how people without hard drives couldn't get the extras in that baseball game that came out a while back because the dev team could not fit them onto the DVD. People should not have to settle for a lesser experience when there are solutions readily available to address an issue just because a company feels like cutting corners.

[JEDI WOLVERINE]

You could have the best graphics in the world waiting on your blu-ray disc but if only so much fits in and is usable by the architecture itself then this point is kinda moot.

Amount of Ram > Disc size

Not saying that the disc size isnt important though but things like installs help the games run better imo..........

[SkolarVisari]

Both matter but the video ram disrepency isn't all that big so you wouldn't really see much of a difference because of that between the 360 and the PS3.

[TheMART]

So RAGE is the only game having problems at the moment.

Those other hundreds of games run and look best on the 360. Don't know PS3 fans I rather have those other games because Quake Wars also from John Carmack sucked donkey balls

Second: with the full HDD installs one can imagine 360 games could become fully downloadable this gen. WITHOUT any restrictions on size of any format.

[silverchode]

what exactly are those hundreds of games that look better. two worlds?

[divideby0]

ask the question another way...any real gamer, given a choice would prefer to have a BR or HDDVD drive which supports games....period
those who say they rather have the old standard dvd instead of a next gen drive are just kidding themselves AND those saying PCs dont have it, remember..they install games

[Xbox is the BEST]

real gamer won't care, it's about the games

[Citizen Cook]

wory about it next time m$

[humus]

the Xbox 360 doesnt even have a future so what are we talkin about?

[leeger]

I don't really know the answer.

[ROCCOZILLA]

360 has been a joke since the day it came out,its not a gaming console its a toy.PLAY B3YOND!!!!

[karlostomy]

hmmm... games? ... no.
........movies? ... yes.

Just as well I play games on my 360.

(Although, certainly a bluray-movie game like MGS4 will pose some challenges when it is inevitably ported to the 360)

[Wii60Fan]

Another article bashing the 360. Sigh.