A Quiet Conversation

Jim Sterling:

I’ve got my umbrella primed for a torrent of boiled piss, as I’m about to suggest Hideo Kojima is less than perfect. How could you argue otherwise, though, when you see Quiet and unveil the “secret reason” for her total ballbag visual design?

So join me as we explain why the whole Quiet thing in Metal Gear Solid V is total bollock-chunder! Afterwards, I plan to drink. Drink to forget.

[Timesplitter14]

Prior to MGS5's release, Kojima said something like "You may think her design is exploitative but you will feel ashamed of yourself when you discover the reason she is dressed like that."

That WAS a pretty dumb thing to say. He should've just admitted it's fanservice and nothing more. Even if her ability does justify her outfit, they only came up with that ability to justify the outfit in the first place, not the other way around. I don't think it's a coincidence that the character that has this ability just happens to be a girl

[3-4-5]

Blind praise of people is disgusting.

Too many people in the U.S. here are obsessed with the celebrity of people, and act like they can do no wrong.

* It's makes people sound like Cult Members, like they are defending Scientology or something.

Kojima isn't perfect....no human is.

[aquaticDonut]

Thing is, though, the excuse doesn't justify the outfit. As Jim points out in the video, they directly compare her ability to that of The End's from MGS 3. The one who wore a full ghillie suit.

[joeorc]

But yet take a remembering of this famously... Um ehm..out fitted Assassin

https://www.google.com/sear...

Would than people call this exploitive?

Thats kinda the point, don't people think its a lil doubled standard to call this exploited and than just ignore something like crying freeman? And not also point that out..?

[SteamPowered]

Plus, if she needs to breathe through her skin, how the hell does she have a shower? Hold her breath and run under the faucet?

[morganfell]

@joeorc,

It is a double standard. Here is something I posted a few weeks back:

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[Bimkoblerutso]

This isn't a discussion about double standards, dammit. Why does this ALWAYS have to devolve into this "well he/she started it!" BS every time it's brought up?

I don't mind the material. I JUST mind the context (or lack thereof) in which it is being presented.

I still like porn. I still like tits. The SJW's can still go take a long walk through traffic.

You just have a character here that Kojima has created a wonderful story for...but then all he can do is ogle her tits and ass with the camera for half her scenes?

I mean Jesus Christ, I think at least MOST of us can agree that we don't play Metal Gear Solid games for the fapping, so why is there an entire character dedicated to that end instead of one that compliments what we ACTUALLY all like about Metal Gear Solid games (as in the characters and narrative)?

[generic-user-name]

Only her photosynthesis ability is comparable to The Ends, not her breathing ability, and it's her breathing which is the reason for her appearance.

[morganfell]

That "character" is only dedicated to your fapping if that is the way you see her. The issue is in your head, not with the game. Then again, this is the new modern world where no one blames their own self for anything. It must be Kojima's fault.

[Bimkoblerutso]

I don't think you understand.

That's the whole damned point. I'm NOT playing the game to fap, but Kojima makes it a friggin POINT to bury the camera in her cleavage every chance he gets the chance...or makes it a point to put her in the shower with you while a bunch of dudes are standing around whispering stuff like "mmmm, look at that!"

It just makes no damn sense. You take a game like Catherine that has a story specifically dedicated to exploring sexuality, and it works perfectly fine. That stuff belongs in the story and setting. It helps develop the narrative and characters.

In a game like MGSV, it just feels like it's thrown in there as potential fap material. It is distracting even if you're not necessarily looking at it sexually. It'd be like zooming in on Snake's bulge every time he speaks.

Edit: and just for the record, in regards to me simply misinterpreting Mr. Kojima's intent here. On why he wanted to make more "erotic" characters:

"The initial target is to make [you] want to do cosplay or its figurine to sell well."

[morganfell]

No it is yo that is lacking comprehension. First of all it is a Kojima game. Is this your first Metal gear Game? If so I feel sorry for you for a variety of reasons. It reminds me of my neighbors kid telling me he saw his first Star Wars film last week called Revenge of the jedi. Not that I dislike that film but rather he now will the Luke I am your father progression/reveal ruined.

And again it is a Kojima game. Appreciation of the female form is not lacking in his games.

But the fact remains you are still making a choice.

Did it ever occur to you why the camera angles happen in this way? Can you separate your own boyhood fantasies and motivations for a second and ask what Kojima is really trying to say here? Almost everyone has missed this point. It's pretty simple at the end of the day and not one of these Social Justice Pied Pipers has figured it out. I can't believe how obvious it is, more apparent than Quiets rump, and everyone misses the point.

If you figure it out then let me know. If you are just going to scream sex and objectification, I really won't hear you.

[Bimkoblerutso]

Well, you don't "hear" a whole hell of a lot to begin with, anyway, because I'm not screaming "objectification". I don't give two licks about whether or not this is an objectification of women. I thought I made that pretty clear. I am only commenting on the fact that I think that her overt sexuality is out of place in the context the game has established. It's distracting and breaks my immersion.

And just for the record, I have been commenting since the SECOND INSTALLMENT about my distaste for Kojima's pretentious habit of including childish bits of context-less and 4th-wall breaking "gags". And yes, I could make a pretty solid case that it has been getting exponentially worse and more distracting since the first Metal Gear Solid game.

And please enlighten me, if you would, as to what the apparently clear-as-day meaning is behind all of it. Because the only explanation I have at this point is from the creator himself who openly admitted that she was made more erotic to cater to cosplay and figurine sales.

[morganfell]

You deserve to know why Kojima used those shots when you figure it out for yourself. I am in the middle of writing a PM to another person on this site and came back to my response to grab a quote when I saw your reply. The person to whom I am writing comprehends clearly. Its a technique used in movies and books as well. Why are some gamers so blind.

Where in Metal Gear 2 Solid Snake was Kojima doing this? I played that game just after launch when the first fan translations appeared. Don't bother answering, the crying is becoming intolerable.

As for V, It's his game. Don't like it, don't play it. Stop crying on a forum. Move on to Mad Max where it is only inoffensive killing. It's amazing the killing in the game is fine but people are doing somersaults over the human body. The fact you and so many people fail to see the very real and obvious reason for those angles is laughable. I don't understand how people miss it but as par for the course, in the rush to sign up for the Social Justice Corps they blow past the obvious.

[Bimkoblerutso]

The fact that you still think this has anything to do with ethical hangups speaks to your inability (or unwillingness, more likely) to comprehend dissenting opinion.

I like to think that I'm not so hard-headed that I can't see both sides of an argument even if I still disagree, but honestly, "figure it out yourself" really goes a long way in demonstrating just the kind of person I've been arguing with this whole time. What a big ball of pretentious, hard-headed fluff you are.

[FunkyGoron]

I would've been much more interested if "Quiet", the character and the abilities, were attributed to one of the child soldiers. Not saying I want to work with a kid but the flack Quiet is getting wouldn't exist and I think it'd add a nice layer to Big Boss and his relationships w/ people in the MGS series.

I literally do not enjoy using Quiet because I can't go into the chopper with her if my wife or some other woman in my life (mom/sister) is sitting next to me. It's a stigma enough to be a gamer at an older age, doesn't help if my "stealth" game has a half naked woman showering, bending over, or dancing on screen.

KONAMI: "Hey, guys like our game and guys like TITS!!!"
(sells millions of copies)

[morganfell]

Regardless of how she is dressed, sexualizing her is still your choice. No one is forcing you to look at her in that manner.

[CrowbaitBob]

Truer words have never been spoken. We are all responsible for how we choose to think about and treat others.

Personal responsibility isn't a big seller these days though.

[coolman229]

Yes I'm sure that it's our choice that Kojima made the camera focus on her boobs and butt every time she was on screen. It was entirely out choice to have Quiet dance in the rain and stretch out seductively even when she's sitting in a helicopter.

It seems like the only person you don't want to have to have responsibility is Kojima. Because it was HIM who made Quiet do all that. And I DON'T want to look at her sexually. I want to see her like I've seen pretty much all other Metal Gear women. Great characters who happen to be beautiful. But the game never allows her to be much more than that. It becomes distracting when something legitimately touching could happen but Quiet starts taking her clothes off and posing.

[morganfell]

Some people are sexually excited by hands. Is it also some developers fault every time a character shakes a fist and someone playing the game is aroused? It is your choice. Stop having a fit over something as amazing as the human body. I think women are incredible and every time I see one scantily dressed sex isn't the first thing in my mind. Oh love it, probably more than most, but I can also celebrate the human body with out having an uncontrollable urge. Don't like what was done? Sell the game and make your own game where the women are all wearing potato sacks.

[madjedi]

So your an older gamer that is still shamed by women for daring to play with a female that is not fully clothed in a video game.

Like women never go out to the beach in a bathing suit or bikini.

It sold because of the gameplay not quiet's tits, a 5-10 dollar porn magazine is a hell of a lot cheaper than a 65 dollar game.

Have fun limiting you game options, because of other people's insecurities.

So blood and violence is perfectly fine but scantily clad women is an immediate red flag. That is odd for adults.

[FunkyGoron]

You sound ignorant... "women"... as in, my mother, wife, sisters, and/or daughter? Yes I'd like to be the type of person that actually takes into consideration how another might feel about something, even if it's not intentionally meant to offend.

I wish for my daughter that she doesn't feel objectified by, well, anything. I can't control everything, obviously.

I feel bad for you that you can't understand why, someone who owns and loves the game, would be put off by how Quiet was used in MULTIPLE cut-scenes. If you believe that dancing in the rain, showering, bending over in a helicopter wasn't put in there ONLY for the sexual nature then there is nothing I can say.

Yes, wearing a bathing suit has so much to do with the point people are making. No one says "women can't wear a bathing suit", it's how her character's appearance is used, camera angles, scenes, etc. It doesn't affect my enjoyment, I prefer D-Dog anyways when in the field.

Not sure why you would be bothered by people saying Kojima could have used more tact and class with the character design.

Cortana, Ellie, Samus, Lara Croft... all characters that are never thought of by their sexual appearance, yet they're women with strong roles in good games. I think it's perfectly fine to expect more from a dev like Kojima.

[morganfell]

"Cortana, Ellie, Samus, Lara Croft... all characters that are never thought of by their sexual appearance, yet they're women with strong roles in good games."

I guess you do not go to many game forums because what you stated is flatly and completely untrue. They are all sexualized.. a great deal. There is this thing called google you may want to try.

[madjedi]

Long one.

And you sound like a proud mangina/male feminist.

"Yes I'd like to be the type of person that actually takes into consideration how another might feel about something, even if it's not intentionally meant to offend."

So I am some careless monster that is incapable of taking other peoples feelings into consideration.

Because I expect them to deal with reality, and not have to walk on eggshells as to not offend them. Get off the moral high horse, very few people are that uncaring in real life, and I am not one of them.

You are not watching a porno in front of them, if your daughter is below the age guidelines while watching the games, that is your fault as a parent.

"I wish for my daughter that she doesn't feel objectified by, well, anything. I can't control everything, obviously."

Just like if you had a son he would only be judged by how big his bank account is or how physically fit he is.

You can wish till the cows come home, reality will not change despite how hard you idealists wish it would.

Have you actually played many of the mgs series everyone is sexualized men and women, did you miss mgs 4's beast core photo shoot mode? Did that detract any from them being bosses in the game.

I find it absolutly hilarious, your having a tizzy about her appearance, despite her being as powerful a soldier and warrior as she is in the game.

Would you be similarly outraged if kojima had done the same to big boss or ocelot in an overly sexual nature for shit's and giggles, I don't think so.

"Not sure why you would be bothered by people saying Kojima could have used more tact and class with the character design."

Because I am tired of the morality police and/or social crusaders like you, wanting others to change character designs and other parts of various media because it offends you and the wanna be sophisticated crowd.

Yeah how much tact was in magic mike or other movies where the male lead has to be nude or topless strictly for their sexual nature.

So sexual nature or appealing to sexual nature is a bad thing now. Considering it's catering towards men that sounds about right with the narratives being pushes by the sjw/feminist crowd.

Show me another dev that has given women the spotlight as much as kojima and not made them helpless princesses that have to be rescued constantly.

But both as heroes and villians, deadly and brilliant, kojima has been one of the few that pushed strong female characters early on.

"I think it's perfectly fine to expect more from a dev like Kojima."

I think it is perfectly fine for him to design characters and scenes however he pleases and not be forced to change it to cater to your or anyone else's whims.

[SynestheticRoar]

Jim got it twisted. He would like if the quiet girl was never there. Because of his own inadequecity. Not anything of what he spoke of. Real truth.

[Activemessiah]

The reason The End is covered is because nobody wants to see him "breathe through his skin".... nobody.

[uth11]

If she were a pop-star, nobody would even flinch at that outfit, and you can go to a beach or pool and see more revealing outfits. Strange double-standards our society has.

[coolman229]

Miley Cyrus says hi

[iceman06]

I still think that Quiet was purposefully placed in the game as somewhat of a metaphor for overt sexuality and how it is treated. Looking at the way she has been stigmatized by the media, and by some in the community, and the way that she is treated in the game draws some parallels. Kojima is playing with this as he uses the camera to all but force you to look at the T&A. At the same time, people are warned repeatedly to stay away from her. She's locked away from sight due to the infection. NPC's are equal parts intrigued and repelled by her presence. (at least initially) In general, she's treated IN GAME the way the media would like to treat her if she were real.
Maybe this is some over-analysis on my part. However, experiencing Kojima's games leads me to believe that there was a definite intent with her character that goes beyond just wanting to display some T&A and contriving a way to do it with character design.

[Spotie]

Have an interesting bubble. And best comment here, by the way.

Some people, apparently, can't help but to see sexuality in everything. The weird part is that they don't realize that them seeing it doesn't mean everyone does or should.

As for the parallel, I haven't played the game yet, but if she's treated how you say, that's definitely mirroring how she's being treated by the media(the gaming media, anyway).

[iceman06]

Thanks. I have been thinking about this since the game, and all of the reactions, was released. Kojima likes to stir things up. Quiet has definitely done that. I didn't want to spoil anything for those that haven't played the game. So, I didn't want to expound too much on the way that she's handled in the game. But, IMO, Kojima pretty much knew what the media would do to this character.

[coolman229]

Here's why that doesn't work. As Jim pointed out the camera ALWAYS goes to her cleavage and her butt, and she in multiple instances moves or dances provocatively for no reason. A deconstruction does not fall prey to the exact same issues it's trying to deconstruct, because then it fails to be a deconstruction.

If this was a real deconstruction on that type of exploitation then it would just be left at people in game talking about it. But you also have to remember that their issue with her is not her outfit, but the fact that she can turn invisible, has super strength, doesn't talk and has not given any strong indicator to anyone but Big Boss that her allegiance is to Outer Heaven. Honestly I'd be nervous with this random woman who I don't know if I can trust coming onto my secure base who could kill everyone with very little effort.

Really, what was the point of the rain scene where she strips out of her equipment and dances and the camera shows off her rear and her cleavage? The sad truth is that Kojima just wanted a hot chick in a bikini in the game. Also remember that Kojima himself said that he instructed that she be designed to be "erotic". The main point of her wasn't that she was a badass sniper. It was that she was hot. Which is sad because Quiet could have been a really great character had Kojima actually cared to write her as a strong character.

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

I'm just saying, this totally doesn't take away from the game, unless pixels are you go to love interest.

[Scatpants]

It's pretty obvious she was put in the game to be sex
that offsets all the violence. She's a woman with no clothes on that doesn't talk for god's sakes. He obviously has to give some sort of reason other than that even if it is BS.

[gamer7804]

So if we are to take these characters as people, Quiet dresses the way she wants to dress, does she have to have a reason? No.

[madjedi]

Yes but that would require treating her as a intelligent individual, capable of making her own choices.

But of course then a certain group could not sit there and express their outrage about how she is being objectified.

[CrowbaitBob]

The SJWs really like to project their sexism onto the world. I'd suggest that if you find something to be exploitative you step away from the soap box and examine your own feelings.

If you can't seperate someone's clothing, or lack thereof, from their sexuality then you are the problem. If you really care about equality and supporting women's rights then you should be able to see a character like Quiet as a representation of a human being, not as a sex object.

If all you see when looking at a scantily clad character is meat set out to entice prepubescent males you may want to consider that your world view is sorely limited. How are women to be treated equally if they are immediately discarded as pointless simply because they don't meet an arbitrary and overtly puritanical standard.

[joeorc]

100% exactly, freaking crying Freeman is 100% nude, has all of the tattoo's all over his body, and no one bat's an eye, but a similar type of character who just happens to be of the female gender gets this type of treatment.

Only because its a female character. If it was male, would we even have this kinda outrage of calling it "sexists" ?

Just for eye candy..not because her characters skillset would be a freaking nightmare to fight..lmao

Like crying Freeman who has a skillset that is pretty deadly him being clothed or not is not the problem, if he is coming to kill your character ..that is the problem you should be worried not what clothes your opponent or lack there of is or is not wearing.

[coolman229]

Okay but I've never heard of Crying Freeman. You can't pull some manga I (and I'm sure others) haven't heard of and compare it to a mainstream AAA game that's well known.

Guess what, Crying Freeman sounds pretty dumb. I'm not going to defend something ridiculous like that, and to assume that I would just because of some double standard I'm supposedly supporting is equally ridiculous. Quiet's design is stupid and it has nothing to do with her being a woman. Cause I also thought that the naked Raiden part was stupid as well. For many reasons.

Quiet's design IS meant to be eye candy. It's hard to really say otherwise when the camera is focused on her boobs so much. Quiet being deadly is honestly more of a side note in her portrayal that the game has to go out of it's way to show.