Could Ties To Xbox One Prevent Us Seeing Scorpio’s True Power?

Welcome to the podcast, and Episode 87 of our weekly show of gaming goodness. Among the rest of the comings and goings in the world of gaming on this week’s pod, there is of course the small matter of Microsoft’s hardware spec reveal of their long awaited and eagerly anticipated Project Scorpio system.

[Angainor7]

For sure, same case with Ps4 Pro and Ps4.

[Gazondaily]

Agreed. It's a shame seeing the beast be shackled by it's less capable brother but it's the honourable thing.

[Bigpappy]

Not really. There is a reason many gamers spend ungodly amounts of money even thought the games are made with the mid and lower range in mind. The developers already know how to scale games to produce better results on more powerful hardware. If you guys were paying careful attention to what Phil and his team keep saying, you would have hear them say many time that Developers already have they games coded with assets to scale the games to 4k with stunning results for people with high end gaming rigs. They will just unlock automatically when ported to scorpio when the software run the performance test. JUST LIKE A PC.

Stop comparing PSpro to Scorpio, they have almost nothing in common. Only things I see them having in common is that they are mid-gen and connect to 4K TV's. There is just a lot more that Scorpio has in common with PC. From the OS to DX12, to being able to run any game at 4K natively, to taking advantage of Dynamic resolution and Dynamic frame rates. They are really very different because of the design, power and software.

M$ slipped up with X1 and fell sort in power. Now Sony did the same with the Pro. The thing is, how does Sony try and fix the situation with the pro. It will be overshadowed by the Scorpio, even being cheaper. So do they release another system and admit the screw-up, or do they just work with it a few year until the price of new tech drops enough to release a console that can bring performance and features above and beyond what Scorpio is capable of right now.
The problem for Sony releasing another Console any time soon, is that it will take a lot of planning to beat Scorpio and be cost efficient. You cant just grab parts off the shelf and look at the numbers. That would be to expensive and my still fall shot. So they need to come up with some mind blowing customization (takes time), or wait until new tech drops in price (takes time).

[Brettman2008]

Like the Pro , Scorpio will be contrained by the weak Jaguar CPU. The next gen will start with PS5 using the far superior Ryzen CPU.

[SpaceRanger]

I think what's more unfortunate, and a shame, is that people will continue to play most of Xbox's games at 900-720p.

Scorpio, its price and the price of 4k tvs will definitely be a barrier for many.

[conanlifts]

@ bigpappy.
I agree that scorpio is a beast and easily outpowers the ps4 pro. But i think that ms still need to respond with high quality exclusives to compete with sony. I don't know if having better looking multiplatforn games is enough. Particularly when they will still look and play great on the pro.
If not then ps4 pro will continue to outsell xbox. It will have an advantage with exclusives and will be cheaper if ms do not respond with games. So as it stands i do not think Sony needs to change what they are doing.

[Melankolis]

@Bigpappy

Now you're the one comparing Scorpio with Pro...

The situation PS4/PS4Pro with XBO/Scorpio is now different from the launch day. Sony is confident with the sales and the game library, and Microsoft is trying to regain their confidence by producing the most powerful console, Scorpio, and that's not a bad thing.

I think the situation now is more or less like in the 2000s. When PS2 dominated the market, and Xbox became the challenger with more powerful hardware. Sony has nothing to be afraid of as of right now, the sales's gap is too wide and the brand "Playstation" itself is too strong. In gaming industry, it is almost impossible to beat Sony unless they make some (big) mistakes...

[Artemidorus]

The two consoles are not enough to create a major gap to worry about being held down.

You need to get educated on how specs work.

[freshslicepizza]

microsoft has shown how credible they are with backwards compatablity and how they get older titles to run better on newer hardware like the xbox one s. scorpio will push that even further. so this whole comparison to its direct competitor is not really apples to apples. more like apples to sour grapes.

you also have to think of it this way, is the new gtx1080ti video card being held back by the gtx1060? microsoft knows how to scale much better than its competitors.

then we have vr which will not be held back at all on scorpio which sadly in not the case when it comes to its direct competitor who has parity clauses in place.

[skydragoonityx]

With the specs of "the beast" yea it will... Unless of cus MS go another 180, releases scorpio exclusives and slap the Xbone owners

[ShadowKnight]

Microsoft is good at 180. I wouldn't be surprise if that happens again

[bluefox755]

I can't help but laugh every time someone calls it that, lol.

[conanlifts]

They have stated it can have " exclusive experiences". I think Ms will use this to release exclusives. For example they might release vr exclusive scorpio games. They could then allow these to have a none vr mode, while still keeping it a scorpio exclusive and claiming this exclusive is a " new experience" due to it being designed for vr.

Not saying i agree with this, but i do think they will use the " exclusive experience" comment to find a way around this.

[Mystogan]

They can still max out a game. I'm pretty sure the witcher 3 maxed out consoles even though it was on PC and consoles.

[Patriot4Life]

I won't pretend to be a tech/ PC expert.

But how do games like Battle Field 1 work... I mean they are on consoles and PC but look and play much better on PC.

Wouldn't the Scorpio work the same way were they Scorpio version would be more optimized to play and look better than they XB1 version?

[arkard]

Typically a game is optimized for lesser of hardwares because those are the systems with bottlenecks and limits. Then the games "settings" are turned up on the more capable systems. Things like framerate, resolution, Anti-aliasing. These are all messed with to find the best balance of smooth performance and graphic prowess. If time permits they would then optimize for the better systems.

[Cueil]

typically western games are built on PC and then down ported to these new consoles. This is easier to do because Microsoft and Sony are both running X64 cpu's with establish GPU. The Scorpio will likely get assets from the PC version of games that run on UWP... all MS first party... all of the 3rd party games like Tomb Raider, Resident Evil 7, Call of Duty: IW, ect.

[XanderZane]

That's actually one of the only things I'm waiting for after the Scorpio is released. A comparison of Battlefield 1 running on PC -vs- PS4 Pro - vs Scorpio. I'm very interested in seeing the benchmark for this game on all 3 platforms from Digital Foundry.

[XStation4pio_Pro]

Not really true. When you build a game you start higher and optimize down, not the other way around. The thing that keeps PS4 pro from it's true potential is only having games that weren't written explicitly to take advantage of it at a low level. These games will come and will still be able to scale to the base PS4 easily... same with Scorpio. Devs will have high target and low target optimizations similar to how PC games work and how Pro games enhanced like Horizon run.

[Ju]

I would say, the only reason why Pro games might have some optimization potential left, ist because it's still fairly new. It usually takes a couple of years to fully push the HW. HZD looks incredible on the PS4 - and was build by a team which had an impressive PS4 launch title - but released 3 years later. Yet, it also pushes the Pro like not other game.

Scorpio has a performance benefit in that it scales XBO games fairly well out of the box. Could be good or bad. Great to get results fast but maybe leaves lesser room to improve (which won't really matter on the Scorpio, it'll do great @ 4K).

With that said, one could say the Scorpio might be the reason, devs won't push the Pro, if they have to work much harder to get similar results on the Pro.

But everything is scalable. I guess one can push every console if done right.

[bluefox755]

Less of an issue with PS4 though since the gap is smaller.

[conanlifts]

I agree. For me this is the reason i think they should continue to support ps4 pro for a few years after ps5 releases. Effectively pro becomes the new budget console. The same with scorpio, they could support xbox one for 3 years after scorpio releases then release scorpio 2 which has games that only work on scorpio and scorpio 2. This would effectively offer each platform 6 years of game support if they released consoles every 3 years.

[XanderZane]

With older XB1 or XBox 360 games already out, you probably wouldn't see the true power, but for ALL the new games being created with Scorpio Dev Kits, you will definitely see the full true power of the Scorpio. The PS4 Pro doesn't have the same kind of customizations as the Scorpio has. It's like Night & Day between these 2 systems. They are no where close to being the same. Scorpio has DX12 built into the processing chip and the Jaguar CPU is completely customized. Not the same as the Jaguar CPU in the PS4 Pro.

@Brettman2008
Did you even watch the DF reveal at all? LOL!! PS4 Pro Jaguar CPU is not equal to Scorpio Jaguar CPU. Not even close.

@Septic
It won't be shackled. All 1st party games will use Scorpio Dev Kits, not older OG XB1 dev kits. If Forza 6 is any indication, the Beast will be on full display for all their games. It'll be no difference then how developer make games for the PC. Do you think the PC is shackled? lol!!

[Artemidorus]

So full of crap I don't know where to start.

[JasonKCK]

Nope! The games are like PC, but unlike PC there are only 3 hardware configurations. That's what UWP and DX12 are for.

[chrisoadamson]

games will be developed for scorpio and then scaled back for Xbox one .. as per the dev kits which have three settings . scorpio , one and s. very simple . people just like to look for negatives in everything . go figure. and btw what holds the ps pro back is the ps pro ! it's weak cpu and minor upgrade , with no increase in ram !

[jhoward585]

Could Ties To Xbox One Prevent Us Seeing Scorpio’s True Power? MS did they homework. Porting over a games from the xbox to the Scorpio will be done with ease.To accomplish this, MS sort out all the bottleneck(using the PIX tool) in the xbox one. Then, MS took all of their findings and implemented it to the Scorpio hardware to insure everything would be compatible between the xbox one and the Scorpio.Also, they've added, a command chip between the CPU and the GPU, which has never been done before. I'm guessing that is why it was very easy to port Forza 6 in two days. My points is, these process has never been done before. So, we can't assume and use the same judgement on PS4 vs Scorpio. MS are apporching things in a different way.That said, the scorpio has current tech and new cutting edge tech under the hood, combined into one machine.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

That's not even the point. Scorpio, as powerful as it is, will be held back from it's ceiling, because of the base Xbox One. That's the whole reason they've been hammering into people's heads 5hat they won't release Scorpio exclusives. Compatibility isn't the issue.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Well you missed the point then.

[mkis007]

Tell me spark. Will any xbox scorpio games be technically impossibe to port to ps4? No because they can't do anything that can't be done on xbox 1.

Historically the jump from ps2 to ps3 ( xbox to 360) was so big that games had to be fundamentally altered in the days between those generations. Force unleashed lost DMM and Euphoria engine. A simple down rez lower quality effects wasn't enough.

Now with xbox one being the one holding back Scorpio, it can't really flex because it has to be technically possible on both consoles. What if there was some new materials engine that couldn't even run on xbox 1?

This is what we mean by holding back. Not just a simple down res or lowerING sliders.

[Lamboomington]

lol what ?

No matter what the case, the Scorpio will absolutely be held back if the games are made to run on Xbox One also. That's just how it works, people should know that by now. Unless the devs completely redo the game with completely different rendering tech, which is never going to happen.

If devs made a game to run only on Scorpio, it would look amazing. That won't happen though. Scorpio, just like the PS4 Pro, is going to be used for improved resolution, IQ, performance and some enhanced graphic features. Needless to say, this is just how it has to be, since PS4 and XBONE owners were promised they'd get all the games. Wait till the next gen to see that proper leap.

[Ju]

Please elaborate on your wisdom how to write renderbackends which aren't optimized for the proper GPU.

[starchild]

No, I disagree. A game doesn't need a completely different rendering method or different engine to look significantly better on one piece of hardware than another. Games on a high end PC, for example, can look substantially better than those same games on a low end PC. The quality of the assets, draw distance, effect quality and other aspects of the engine are quite scalable.

The PS4 Pro and Xbox Scorpio are powerful, but not so powerful that they would need wholly different engines. Higher quality assets and effects, much higher resolutions, better image quality and higher refresh rates are a perfectly good use of the hardware.

[andrewsquall]

Yes of course, unless the development team of a game specifically target 720p resolution OR BELOW on Xbone. That is the only way a Scorpio game will manage to actually be impressive looking.
But there is a reason why Xbone has never had a game that comes even close to the likes of Horizon Zero Dawn, nah scratch that, Infamous Second Son, its just THAT underpowered.

[annoyedgamer]

Tell us how you really feel...

[PFFT]

Ryse looks amazing. But i guess you have never played that game have you?

[Condemnedman]

this will be the last time ms will release a console the is weaker than its competitor yes the next PS console will be stronger but then they will release a better version after that. this is how generations will work now.

[XanderZane]

LMAO!! I can't stop laughing. You can't be that delusional.
https://media.giphy.com/med...

Developer won't be targeting 720P resolution on the XB1 when they start to make their games. This is the problem with you biased fanboy's theory. Developers will be targeting native 4K, 60fps on the Scorpio when they start making their games. When they patch older XB! games to Scorpio they will be trying to get native 4K, 60fps. When Forza 6 was ported (remember, it's 1080P, 60fps on the XB1) they targeted native 4K, 60fps with Ultra settings and 4K assets. They hit that mark with room to spare. So how the hell are Scorpio games not going to look impressive? They will look very impressive. Then they will scale the game's resolution, settings and features back to run on the XB1.

[Patriot4Life]

Still can't believe no one is asking MS if the XB $corpio will support mods.

Fallout 4 was a big step towards that direction but was still limited...I want full mod support just like PC.

[SkippyPaccino]

What other game offered mods on console?

Fallout was a step, but it doesn't seem like any other developer followed... Mights be a Bethesda thing (which is still cool on its own)

[KwietStorm_BLM]

Obviously

[BlakHavoc]

Games will run natively in 4K and at 60fps on Scorpio, but in the end it won't matter cause the differences won't be enough to convince buyers to invest in the Scorpio over a PS4/Pro.

[DrJones]

Only somes will manage BOTH 4K AND 60 fps

[AuraAbjure]

It should be possible to maximise the potential of the scorpio even while developing for a weaker system. Just takes more time right?

[PFFT]

About two days give or take. Kinda like Turn 10 did when they ported Forza to the Scorpio.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Does old PC graphics cards limit performance with other GPUs?

[starchild]

No, these people are being silly. Game engines are highly scalable. The Witcher 3 at ultra settings on a high end PC looks radically different than it does at lowest settings on a low end PC. The existence of the lower end settings doesn't stop the game at ultra settings from being one of the most visually impressive games I've ever seen.

[Tussin187]

I just believe it will be up to how much a developer pushes these systems nothing more. Some devs will take more time while others won't. We see that now with the Pro.

Unless MS, found some way to just enhance games to the full power of the Scorpio without much effort from devs then the situation will be as I described above. Will shall see come E3.

[Lamboomington]

At the end of the day a good game made exclusively for Scorpio would look , much better than any game made for both XBONE and Scorpio. That's just how it works most of the time.

[bluefox755]

It's not the "ties" to X1 that'll hold it back, it'll be consumers who hold it back. Most people will be perfectly happy with their X1 and won't bother upgrading, the majority of consumers will be catered to just like always. Don't blame X1 for this, blame cost conscious consumers who are more worried about bang for their buck than they are about having the latest, greatest hardware. This is the same reason you see all these lackluster, poor performing PC ports. They just didn't spend that much time on them, because most of their audience is on console.

[starchild]

Most multiplats run just fine on PC. I can count on one hand the multiplats that didn't run optimally. And out of those most were patched and ended up running well anyway. All of them ran better than their console counterparts.

[1908-PB]

Nope because MS isn't Sony and I like the way they do business. I think MS will lead this generation maybe not interns of exclusives but being more consumer friendly and giving devs the chance to use the scorpio full power. And this is good for all of us because games will look better and hopefully advance more in terms​ of AI and more interactive world.

[Cueil]

Does someone's Intel GPU prevent someone with a high end GPU from playing a game at it's maxed setting? No

[DrumBeat]

Absolutely. The Scorpio will do nothing but give better image quality and frame rates. No more polys per character or object, etc. Just mostly 4K image quality and mostly better frame rates. Like the PS4 Pro, Scorpio is anchored to its lesser counterpart.

[Artemidorus]

No it won't hold it down, the new console is using Xbox One games but providing premium settings, so 4K, 60fps would be the highest.

You got any idea how hard that is on PC and to run all stable?

They may create major good looking games at 1080p, 2160p when the regular Xbox stays at 720p, 900p etc.

You are all failing to see this is still an Xbox One console and Microsoft made this very clear from the start.

[_LarZen_]

As of now it's the game engines and how developers make the games that is holding the games back more then anything else. Just look at PC exclusive games. Besides graphical effects,resolution and frame rate. There is noting revolutionary about them.

Been like this for decades. And will most likely continue until a software revolution comes along. In a lack of better words.

[Many-hat5]

This question hits right at the heart of the mid gen upgrades. Both Pro and Scorpio are capable of a lot more that the standard models. Way I see it, both companies have two options. Firstly, develop all new titles to take full advantage of the more powerful machines, and then downgrade to standard models. This way, both Sony and MS maintain their promise of no exclusives for the upgraded machines, but at same time give real reasons for people to buy them. The other way, and I fear the more likely way, is to develop to originals capabilities, then do some half assed upgrading -basically higher resolutions - to the upgraded machines. You don't need to be a developer to know that if you develop for lower spec machines, you cannot make a silk purse out of a pigs ear, just look at BC! It's a great feature, but you don't expect 360 games to have better textures etc on X1, do we?. So which is it? For me the former is a day one purchase, while the latter means a pass. I don't want the same relatively low quality of X1 ported to a monster machine. What's the point?