1130°

360 Developer: Hitting Graphical Limit But Can Do Alot More On A.I & Animation

Major Nelson recently interviewed Mark Terrano, a video game programmer and Design Director for Hidden Path Entertainment on the progress of the industry from a technological point view, and specifically his evaluation of the current generations technical achievements and limitations for the Xbox 360 XBLA games.

Listen from the 43rd minute on the podcast.
Updates:
Transcript of Segment in Interview
Major: Looking back on all the work you've done in the industry, are you surprised at where you are today in terms of technology or do you see alot of power in the box to be unlocked - specifically for the Xbox 360..

Developer: I think we've really pushed where we can go graphically, I think realism is losing some of the luster - I would love to see some work done on what we call "non-photo realistic rendering", paint-related techniques, we do things you can do in movies but I'm more interested in what you can't do in movies...

Major: Interesting..

Developer. I thought it was sad that we had to let the Matrix to show how fun Bullet-Time could be, we (developers) have control of the camera, we have control of the content, we're not limited by lenses etc, we (the industry) can do alot more things to draw the players attention to tell a story that haven't been discovered by movie camera's.

Major: Interesting, I never really thought of it like that. Why keep pushing the photo-realism that you could do more things to make the gameplay more effective.

Developer: Right. And I think the bar could be alot higher with animation and A.I, the things really cue into when interacting with an environment to make it more believable, to just make the characters - the scenes, we interact with more fun. We're seeing really good physics now, we all know how much fun it is to drive and smash cars in BURNOUT and do alot of things to make it more fun with the physics..etc
Meus Renaissance - contributor
Published: 600 days 21 hours ago | Podcast | Xbox 360 | Gaming | Dev News
 
 

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Showing: 1 - 50 of 169 Comments
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Fishy Fingers - 600 days 21 hours ago
1 -
Not really what you want to hear.

Especially in this day and age when visuals are the first and main talking point of any "next-gen" game.
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green - 600 days 21 hours ago
1.1 -
Did you guys listen to the podcast?
Do you know that this is an Xbox Live Arcade game that he is talking about?

Those that disagree please can you state the name of the game that he is developing for the 360?
1.2 SausageKing | 600 days 21 hours ago - deleted by mod -
1.3 thenickel | 600 days 21 hours ago - deleted by mod -
1.4 SausageKing | 600 days 20 hours ago - deleted by mod -
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juuken - 600 days 20 hours ago
1.5 -
Sausage King has a point. MS is not a hardware company. They are a software company, which is why Live is better than PSN at the moment. But when it comes to hardware, they are unreliable and it's a complete waste of the consumer's money.

Like I've been saying all along-You cannot play games/function if the console doesn't work.
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Superfragilistic - 600 days 20 hours ago
1.6 - @green
The recent title was Wits & Wagers and the next is Defence Grid: The Awakening. You're right people should listen to the podcast because the title deliberately misleads.

The whole conversation is in the context of graphical, AI and animation limits for 150MB Arcade games on XBLA!
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marichuu - 600 days 20 hours ago
1.7 -
@juuken
I can't play broken games either... I've had more problems with broken games than problems with the console.
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juuken - 600 days 20 hours ago
1.8 -
That's true as well, however the hardware still counts the most. I would rather have a broken game, where I could probably take it back and get it exchanged than to have a headache over a console that refuses to work.
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MediaStream - 600 days 20 hours ago
1.9 -
You don't really need a 360 developer to tell you this.

Just look at the 360 release list. Where are these amazing games?

Gears of War 2 landed with a bit of a thud after being overhyped and turned out to be just a slightly upgraded Gears of War

Alan Wake is primarily a PC game and is looking very dated now.

Sure there are 360 games that are going to look good or even be described as amazing. But the same can be said for the Wii.

Banjo Kazooie, Ninja Gaiden 2, and Fable 2 all look nice but certainly aren't graphical showpieces that one would expect in a console's third year.
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marichuu - 600 days 20 hours ago
1.10 -
@1.8
As I said.. for over 2 years, I haven't had ANY problems with my 360, but I've had problems with games being lame (bad controls, camera controls, AI being lame etc.). I know where you're going with this... there are a lot of people who experience a breaking 360, but in my case (and probably others) it works without anything to complain about when it comes to hardware.

This article doesn't chock me or anything... I'm the type of gamer who doesn't need realistic graphics to have fun with a game. Look at Disgaea for the PS2/PSP, and look at Disgaea 3 for the PS3... barely any difference in graphics, but the game is f***ing addictive and more fun than any other game I've played recently... hell, my GTA IV is just collecting dust while I have fun playing Disgaea on the PSP.

Oh.. and no, I don't own a Wii.
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dan-boy - 600 days 19 hours ago
1.11 - @ mediastream
and i suppose ps3 games are in the 5th dimension?

a purposely mis-leadingly titled thread for all the people who've not even heard was said to throw their uninformed opinions at...lol

you've just gotta love n4g.com
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MediaStream - 600 days 19 hours ago
1.12 -
@dan-boy

Feel free to let everyone know what these incredible graphical titles are supposedly coming out for the 360.

A slightly upgraded UE3 Gears of War 2 sure as hell isn't impressing anyone.
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Montrealien - 600 days 19 hours ago
1.13 - @1.12
Gears of War 2 is impressing me, so is Killzone 2 and MGS4, who the **ck am I? And who are you to say it is not impressive, that is only your opinion. G

gameplay over graphics is and always will be the number one rule of video-gaming, if we lose that mentality the whole industry will go to s***.

And to Juuken,

Software » Hardware

This fact, is as old as digital time.
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Monchichi025 - 600 days 19 hours ago
1.14 - WOW!!!
That title is very misleading because his comment was taken WAY out of context. He isn't talking about the 360 but the whole industry in general.
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marinelife9 - 600 days 18 hours ago
1.15 -
Peter Molyneux just stated that the 360 architecture caused him to have to compromise elements of Fable 2.

Microsoft needs to tell their developers to keep quiet and not talk about hardware at all. I'm surprised Major Nelson didn't edit his podcast.
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power of Green - 600 days 18 hours ago
1.16 -
I wonder what this XBL Arcade game will offer.

Yet another agenda based twisting of news posts.

Whats with the missleading header?. I'm going to report bad editing.
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JBaby343 - 600 days 17 hours ago
1.17 - Misleading Title...
However I agree with him on certain points. I don't think Gears 2 looks much better than the first but games on all consoles can use better AI. Uncharted was the first game that made me actually think to get through some parts but even then things can get predictable after a while.

AI is definitely where games have significant ground to cover although I think they are improving.
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Tmac - 600 days 17 hours ago
1.18 -
I'm sorry, to all you saying he is referring to XBL Arcade games, he isn't he clearly denotes that he's specifically talking about the Xbox 360, he doesn't even mention Arcade games. Don't make assumptions and spin the facts, it is what it is and it's a developer telling us straight up the Xbox 360 has hit the wall.
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power of Green - 600 days 17 hours ago
1.19 -
LOl there's over 100 people flaming eachother talking about sh*t they're clueless about just from the header alone no one listend to the cast" not that its going to matter to the PS3 fans that will continue to fight based on the missleading header on purpose.

1.6... Thanks *Wits & Wagers* has great graphics photo-real in some places but this seems arrogant of the devs when that game uses copy and paste styles in that game but obvously they're talking about memory.
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marinelife9 - 600 days 16 hours ago
1.20 - POG
The title isn't misleading at all. On this particular topic they aren't talking about XBL games they're talking about the 360 itself.

What XBL game can tout near photo realistic graphics? Which XBL game can rival the capabilities of a Hollywood movie?
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Monchichi025 - 600 days 16 hours ago
1.21 - MarineLife9
It's obvious that you didn't listen to the Podcast. Either that or your a blind Sony lemming. He's talking about graphics in general. As in the whole industry and where we can take it from here.

READ:
I think realism is losing some of the luster - I would love to see some work done on what we call "non-photo realistic rendering", paint-related techniques, we do things you can do in movies but I'm more interested in what you can't do in movies...
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potenquatro - 600 days 15 hours ago
1.22 -
360 is going for 3 countem 3 years. ofcourse its going to reach a limit. what the hell is everybodys problem. i'm willing to bet ALOT of the ps3 retards here had ps2. what happened when gamecube and xbox came out? did the ps2 become irelevent? no. they kept making games for it.great games for it. how is this news related to the 360 falling short. did anybody in here actually read? they are talking about XBOX LIVE ARCADE games.
@fishy fingers: THIS gen stopped being NEXT-GEN along time ago. there are games out there and being made for far more powerful machines(new vidoe cards) that can never be made or ported the way it was intended for either ps3 or 360. grafics has always been a main talking point on any gen. these machines were meant to produce grafics.
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Lifendz - 600 days 15 hours ago
1.23 - anyone else see a 360 look to games?
That happens when you've seen a system's best shot and you can start to identify that system's games. Not saying it's bad; far from it. Devs were able to exploit the 360 from day one. Now they've maxed.

I said nothing about the PS3 so don't flame me. I'm no dev so until a dev says they've tapped the full potential of the cell (laughs a bit) I will reserve my statements.
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potenquatro - 600 days 14 hours ago
1.24 - @lifendz
i don't see a certain look to xbox games.i do see a certain look for games this gen. even pc games looked in that similar way for a while but it's starting to break away now. but i disagreed with you because there is no way in hell the ps3 is going to blow the xbox out of the water. i've had the ps3 for a while and i think i've seen about all it can do. same as 360. the ps3 is in 3rd place for two years now. u don't think if they had this raw untapped power they would've used it now? i say ps3 and xbox are about even. there is NO proof to the contrary. i personally hate CELL and blame stupid CELL for ANY of the ps3's undelivered promises. if they would've used two or four powerpc chips it would've been much better imo.
1.25 marionz | 600 days 12 hours ago - User only got 1 bubble - Show
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Kaneda - 600 days 11 hours ago
1.26 - juuken
Wow.. 11 people disagreeing with you..:)
2 jones smokey | 600 days 21 hours ago - comment has been reported as SPAM -
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Fishy Fingers - 600 days 21 hours ago
2.1 -
N4G offers a "spell check" option, in future I urge you to use it.
2.2 CViper | 600 days 20 hours ago - User only got 1 bubble - Show
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dan-boy - 600 days 19 hours ago
2.3 - cviper and jones smokey
the ps3 guts have been set for almost as long as the 360s....the delay was for blu-ray. and you can bet the first party studios have had the dev kits for a long time! killzone2 has been in development since well before the ps3 was released.

when that game hits, it will equate to nearly 3 years dev time, and without doubt will run on an engine that wont be surpassed this gen on the ps3! the only game thats gonna look marginally better is killzone3!

dont think for one minute that killzone2 is the beginning, it will pushing the machine hard. things wont get that much better, only polished and expanded upon for the third one.

even the gran tourismo devs said that gt was pushing the hardware.

now watch all the disagrees
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Diugu - 600 days 19 hours ago
2.4 - You should read Kojimas last interview....
When they say pushing the hardware they mean it in the sense of learning and pushing further.

The first game on ps3 pushed it, the second pushed it more, the third more... and so on. The developers learn with each game they make and therefore push the console.

That is what they mean when they say they are pushing the PS3. One thing is to say they are pushing the other is that it has reached its limit.

Also, I believe the engine used in KZ2 will be used in other games. At least I hope so.

It doesn't matter anyways I just posted that to reply to your post, I shouldn't even be saying that here. Also, even though I think the PS3 is the more powerful this generation, I believe that the 360 will still advance within time and its games will look better as time goes by.
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Meus Renaissance - 600 days 21 hours ago
3 - Just my 2 cents
I have to stress that it is his professional opinion and doesn't necessarily mean that the Xbox 360 has hit its graphical limitations - it really is based on largely the expertise and skill of a studio as well as it is on the hardware itself. Personally I feel titles like KillZone 2 will be the limit of what we'll see this generation graphically. I'm not some sort of delusional fanboy but I haven't yet seen any 360 title that looks better than Uncharted or GT5 or even Ratchet & Clank; those titles really impressed me visually so it suggests that at the end of this generation, within the next 2-3 years, the PlayStation 3 will be the console with generally the better looking graphics although I would not be surprised if the two performed equally in that regard anyway. I just have this inkling that Sony's console is able to push that extra more onto our screens.
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Douchebaggery - 600 days 21 hours ago
3.1 - "I just have this inkling that Sony's console is able to push that extra more onto our screens."
That "inkling" is just you using your eyes.
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dachiefsman - 600 days 20 hours ago
3.2 - just my two cents
you should have titled this submission with something that is not oozing with flame bait fodder....IMO
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green - 600 days 20 hours ago
3.3 - meus
You submitted this story and you are making comments as if you did not listen to the podcast.Or did you submit the story to feed your fanboy agenda?hence the title that is taking out of context.

The name of the developer is Mark toranto,he works for Hidden Path Entertainment.A company with a staff of 32 and they make casual games mostly for xbox live arcade.

The game in question is called Defence Grid for xbox live arcade.

Now tell me how is a 150mb game utilizing the full power of the 360?
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jkhan - 600 days 21 hours ago
4 -
I remember reading somewhere in an interview with Epic's some guy said that Gears of War uses 90% of 360 power and bla bla, and I know it was there first game so they must have optimized a lot to reduce that number this time around. But yeah we aren't seeing any breakthrough graphics on 360, like we are seeing at ps3. Look at R1 then Ratchet and Uncharted and then MGS4 and R2 and Killzone 2 and just imagine for one sec. how will God Of War 3 will look like;)
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princejb134 - 600 days 21 hours ago
4.1 -
yea i agree with u
since the 360 runs on a graphic card it is well known that every graphic card has a limit
all of us are unaware what willt he cell processors do for the ps3
mayb its the beginning of true next gen or mayb it will go down fall and fail
only time and money will tell in the future
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mabreu - 600 days 21 hours ago
4.2 - God of War 3 will look FANTASMIGORICAL!!!!!
Yep. Thats right. It's a real word. Google it.
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Mum - 600 days 21 hours ago
4.3 - ps3 has its limits already reached too...
just take a look at all Ps3 Games.
MGS4 for example. it has great visuals but crappy texture quality unfortunately like any other ps3 game (except mirror's edge, which really surprised me). so i am really disappointed for this generation of consoles and i will stick to my pc and sell my 360. because pc gaming is the future!
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jkhan - 600 days 20 hours ago
4.4 -
@MUM
Well with PS2 we saw what developer did in 2007 wasn't even remotely possible with PS2 in 2000. So it will take time for developers to do stuff with PS3. Plus imagine when Sony will allow developers to overclock the cell processor. By the way MGS4 doesn't have poor textures, if you are looking for insane amount of details then you should watch cgi movies instead of playing games;)
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SausageKing - 600 days 20 hours ago
4.5 -
"crappy texture quality"

LOL...

You mean everything isn't covered in 'shiny normal maps'...
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castags - 600 days 17 hours ago
4.6 - @4.3
you as dumb as your avatar looks
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name - 600 days 21 hours ago
5 -
They need to ban the open zone for this article.
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Blacktigra - 600 days 21 hours ago
6 -
This is gonna result in some gamer zone bans.
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name - 600 days 21 hours ago
7 -
Definetly. Meus..what have you done
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leeger - 600 days 21 hours ago
8 -
this will get messy.
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SL1M DADDY - 600 days 21 hours ago
9 - Wasn't it a Harmonix Dev...
That said the PS3 was maxed out a while back? Look what happened there. All I am saying is that these devs say what perhaps reflects their abilities and in the end there is always somebody else who can do more with the platform.
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ukilnme - 600 days 21 hours ago
10 -
So what if the 360 has reached it's graphical limit. As long as deveplopers push themselves too reach that limit the games will still look great. Personally I want the gameplay to be great more than anything.
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clintos59 - 600 days 20 hours ago
10.1 - Thats the thing.....
Devs like John Carmack and Valve who whine over the ps3 technology being not easy to work on will never know how to get the best out of a machine unless u give it your all. For example just like God of War on the ps2, the first was amazing but even near the ps2's life cycle, god of war 2 was even more stunning. Alot of devs are lazy to work on a system, and most of them complain but when they just look forward and work on the title with out half a$$ing there work, u come up with beautiful looking games. Just look at what Insomniac was able to do from resistance to ratchet and clank, also naughty dog with uncharted, and that was there first project working on a system that john carmack and Valve said was hard to work on. If Naughty Dog and Insomniac can create these games with such high detail, what makes Valve and Carmack's words look pretty stupid when they cant even creat a game that can out perform these 2 games graphically on the 360. If there is a game, show me proof because as of now Uncharted is still the best looking game ive seen on any console besides pc.
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