DVD capacity becoming an issue for 360

Some developers are starting to whisper about the fact that the use of DVD storage on the Xbox 360 is finally leading to capacity issues. A dual-layer DVD is capped at about 9GB of available storage per disc, and with the PlayStation 3 sporting a Blu-ray drive that is able to handle discs with a capacity of 25GB to 50GB; it is easy to see how developers can start to feel cramped with the max of 9GB on a standard DVD.

[xaviertooth]

greenberg said its not needed.

[mrv321]

He's allways right... I mean HDMi wasn't needed at the start.

The xbox 360 is limited by DVD nine in the sense that PS3 is limited by data read speeds, the developers can work around it. They do work around it, the situation isn't ideal but it's no going to become a problem for a long time.

[PirateThom]

Except, the PS3 has a standard hard drive that the data can be installed to. The 360 doesn't even have that.

The fact it has 6.8GB discs, no standard hard drive and Microsoft charge publishers MORE for multi-disc games is a huge issue and one everyone keeps burying their head in the sand over.

Why does anyone support this nonsense?

[champ21]

why does anyone support the nonsense of paying 59usd per game?

[Wrathman]

why does anyone support it?

erm, wot was the alternative at the time?take into account the developement time of the 360.years probably.so you have to count back years from the launch.pre 2005 at least.there was no alternative.why hate for the xbox when the technology wasnt there and if it was,it wasnt financially visable.blu-ray players at launch were £1000.

i think its safe to say a new xbox is closer than we think.

but i wont dump my 360 just yet.i have no problem with multiple discs.ps2 owners had no problem.and that was pre-dvd9 or dual layer.

the xbox is wot it is.generation 1.5.

the role of ps3 and 360 will probably be reversed with a new xbox.atm i have no problems with discs.and the only people making issues about it are ps3 fans.the same fans that used multiple discs for years.and are not using them now.

lets ask the 360 fans are if they have a problem.the most vocal haters are the ps3 people--the people that dont matter when it comes to the issue.

[Whitefox789]

You should of been around when the Neo Geo came out $700 console games could be at a max price of $200 and looked like this.

[champ21]

sure knew abou the neo geo but i found something superior.

i went PC back in 95 and never looked back to consoles :P

59usd per game sounds outrageous to me. at the end of 2 years thats enough to build a rig itself.

[Aquarius]

WTF?

My comment gets deleted, lol. But Foxbot's comment remains? Excellent.
We all know the discontinuation of the 360 is going to happen soon enough.
In fact the 360 is already dead, they're going to go for the Wii's market with HYPTAL but flop in the process.

[rawd]

haha I remember dvd's. Way back in the day. I don't think I've played a DVD in almost 2 years now

[baker_boi]

Your missing the bigger point here. It doesn't matter whether YOU mind the DVD's it's the developers who make those games for your stupid brains that minds them.

And ultimately because the developers are getting sick or paring down their games it effects YOU. MULTIPLE DVD's IS NOT GOOD. Learn that please?

It costs developers money AND game quality, so what's ok about it? SONY Pushed the DVD format when it was viable back then and IT NO LONGER IS.

There is a reason why Sony made a bigger format, they saw the times changing and when stupid consumers like you said "no it will fail because it's not needed" it succeeded and the media industry hasn't looked back.

Now, you may think the next console from Microsoft will fix this, but how will they? They've already stated they wont be adopting BLU-RAY, and they can't possibly "revive" HD-DVD, so the only thing they can do for the next console is develop their own discs like Sega, or go digital download only.

It's time for a change, but unfortunately Obama can't do anything for the Xbox360 lol.

[Wrathman]

@ baker_boi

i doubt the reason sony pushed blu-ray was for the games.or at least its not the overriding reason.i get the bigger picture.dvd9 wasnt an issue when the xbox launched.its an issue thats been made becasue of blu-ray.its a by-product of it.if there was no blu-ray there would be no issue.

but wot is the solution?i dont know.if its not blu-ray then wot is it.

ps.cudnt MS just use HD-DVD FORMAT SOLELY FOR CONSOLES?.

[Sir_Ken_Kutaragi_]

I use my HD-DVD xBox 360 Add-on as a Cup-Holder now!!! ;-D

http://cache.kotaku.com/ass... FAIL!!! ;-D

+ Most ugliest thing in the World -

http://blog.ultimateavmag.c... (Both of them!!!) ;-D

[rawd]

If MS released a Failbox with a Bluray drive I would buy it for sure!!!!! ... nah

[Aquarius]

Oh yeah where is that focking idiot gimped_hardware?

BU BU BU TEH 360 HAZ MOAR RAMS!!!!!!!!!!1

[baker_boi]

Tell me something I don't know. BLU-RAY is portable disc media. It doesn't have a specific use except to cut out the need for multiple stacks of CDs lol.

Like I said before, SONY pushed the DVD format when it was new and coupled it with their PS2 to make it a main selling point because at that time, the future was DVD and before it CD-Rom.

They pushed both formats because all media circulation would revolve around the respective formats of their times.

The DVD problem isn't a by product of BLU-RAY the DVD problem is a problem of it's own. You don't want to think of movies without BLU-RAY, HD look too good. And you could say "Well we can download HD movies now", but the truth of the matter the majority of the world would rather buy the disc and what does that mean? The market NEEDS BLU-RAY.

But by your logic we shouldn't have DVD's either cause swapping CD-Roms was just fine too.

We don't need no stinkin DVD's! lol

[Major_Tom]

The data read speed is faster than DVD9.

[Whitefox789]

Heh you have a good point personally me I started gaming with a Windows 95 PC, and a Sega Genesis. I will say I'm starting to like portable gaming's price, I got FF7 Crisis Core for PSP for the price of $20 I have 55 hours of game time. Whereas I buy a $60 and get 10 hours out of it.

[qface64]

from what i remember hearing you don't get to use the whole 9 gigabytes

[fishd]

It is 6.8 GB actually,and some PS2 games like GOW II have more data than that

and you know what,the fact that MS charges developer if they chose to use extra disk is just disgusting,a dirty yet effective way to make sure that multiplat games won't end up being on multi disks on 360 while the PS3 version is on one disk.who cares about quality!

And if you look at the list of games with multiDisks on 360,almost all of them are exclusive games :
Forza 2,ME 2,Halo:ODST,Lost Odyssey,etc etc because you know MS won't charge itselef for the extra disks,lolz

[PirateThom]

Seriously, the only gen where we went BACKWARDS in terms of storage.

The Wii has more disc space than the 360!

[SilentNegotiator]

"This time, truly, the content that was cut was significant and at the end, we had to wrestle with disc spac,"
-producer Jun Takeuchi of Lost Planet 2

Yes, it is.

[IronFistChinMi]

MS does not charge for extra discs.

http://www.shacknews.com/fe...

[Corrwin]

Because Disk Read Speed decreases the fuller the disk, you can only really use the one layer without a slowdown.

With larger games now becoming the norm, this will hopefully mean devs actually have to figure out a way around the speed issue without installing the HDD - this will apply for both 360 and PS3. Uncharted 2 doesn't have an install and was the prettiest game of last year.

[SoX FireBlade]

just make 2, 3 or more discs. I'ts not like the end of the world if we use multiple discs.

see ME 2 for example, swapping twice only in one playthrough. thats not annoying at all

but next gen it will be a problem if it was DVD

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Thank god the disc era is almost over, can't wait to download everything on big hard drives.

Disc = scratching, to small, or drive speed is to slow to read data forcing you to install the game anyway.

[fishd]

That sounds like Tim Willits doing damage control for MS,Carmack said MS charge for extra disks:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsS...

I don't know how this could be a 'misunderstanding'.

[Shadow Flare]

Yet another thing sony fans were right about a few years ago. I seem to remember 360 fans saying dvd is fine and bluray isn't needed, lol

[sikbeta]

@IronFistChinMi

MS increase the Fees if a Dev want to use more than 3discs, that's why 3Discs are the "standard" for big Games

R* North and the Devs from Red Faction: Guerrilla were complaining about the same issue

On-Topic

Why MS just let Devs use the Amount of Discs they NEED, after all if swapping 3Discs is not a problem, 4 or 5 Disc will not be a problem either and when I say Let them use more discs I talking about Don't charge them for more Discs

Gamers FTW!!!

[Rainstorm81]

You do know blu rays are scratch resistant right?

The only way i see DD happening next gen is if every console made comes with a 1+ TB HDD and super fast internet connections will have to be standard, to download 35 to 50 GB who knows maybe 100GB.

It just seems impractical.

Edit @below

I really wouldnt be surprised if MS announces the their next console @ E3 to be released in 2011. Just look at the 360 line up this year. They are releasing almost every top tier exclusive they have. SC:C, ME2, Halo Reach, Fable 3, Crackdown, Natal and possibly Gears 3. Forgot to mention Alan Wake

Talk about trying to go out on a high note

[Mr_Bun]

Did you learn English from foxgod? Two, Too, To

Stay in school, kids!

[hay]

@IronFistChinMi: They demand paying royalties for each disc not game. So technically speaking it's not charging for extra discs but for each one of them.

[Baka-akaB]

Foxgod is at least right on ONE tiny thing . it's often an excuse to justify dlcs and cuts ... but still why give them such excuse in the first place ?

They would all look silly with their dlc crap , with the sheer sizes of blu ray/hd dvd and would need to find a new excuse to shove dlcs down our throats .

In the end dvd was only cheap for microsoft and devs , but helped them sells us highly priced dlcs even better .

[King_of _the_Casuals]

It was quite clear from the get-go that this would one day be an issue. Now there using DLC to use more space. Might have to buy a bigger hard-drive now! Grrr

[II Necroplasm II]

so maybe the next Xbox will use cartridges...lmao

[nix]

HD-DVD where art thou? lol

[Hellsvacancy]

Sony will still use Blu-ray on the PS4, but itll b those 250gb disks which is plenty 4 developers i woulda thought

MS will go over-board with there storage next time round, 1 billion gb hdd or summin daft like that "u wanted space so we'll give u space"

[Chris399]

I'm fairly certain that blu-ray reads at a constant rate across the disc, wheras DVD does not. All in all, DVD is pretty dated, it's becoming a progressively more hindersome tech for this gen as time goes on. If MS wants to stay relevant, they need an updated 360 with a better storage solution. Natal will extend the life of the machine a bit, but the novelty will eventually wear off.

[nveenio]

To anyone saying that Digital Downloads are the future: You're nuts. They aren't the future, and don't let MS or Sony fool you. They only reason they push DD now is because of piracy. The future is cloud computing because it can be done over nearly any broadband internet connection, and it won't require massive downloads.

As things stand right now, the average broadband speed in my area is probably 6-10 Mbits/sec. At these speeds, downloading a 20GB game would take waaaaaay too long when I can just go buy a disc from Walmart and wait out a 5-10 minute install. The time I spend with a physical disc would only cost me about 45 minutes and 5GB of HDD space. The time I spend on a Digital Download would cost me about 10 hours and 25GB of HDD space. I fail to see how that's even close to being a better option.

With cloud computing (see OnLive), there's not only no waiting, but there's no need for a hard drive. Not only is there no need for a hard drive, but if my system breaks down, I lose nothing. Replacing it would only cost me about $20. The CC console would be much easier to travel with, you can play from an computer anywhere (finding games for my Mac is ridiculous), and there's no precious HDD space used up on your PC or Mac.

The first big company to initialize a good Cloud Computing infrastructure will be the company that wins the next "console" war.

[Darkeyes]

Ya Jason, you are right, DD will soon take over Blu-Ray, we all know what a blockbuster success the PSPGo has been don't we??? Oh wait!!!

DD suck ballz. I can't imagine downloading 25Gigs and then waiting for my network provider to call. Even the next gen consoles WILL have a drive of some sort mark my words. Can't believe you lousy fanboys hate on something that is an advance tech in every way to the DVD. If you defend companies cutting content for a game and agree to buy them later as DLC, then you have some problems with letting them hump you. Sorry, but I don't partake in this BS. DVD is causing a problem and the problem will be more evident as times passes.

[gaffyh]

Here are some of mine.

HD-DVD is gonna win the format war...oh wait...

Blu-ray isn't needed...oh wait...

Digital distribution is the future, PSPgo is a skyrocketing success...oh wait...

This one's my favourite:

Killzone 2 won't look anywhere near as good as the E3 2005 trailer...oh wait...(look at image)

[Redempteur]

I'm not against cloud computing but against the way ( onlive is one way to see it )
cloud computing is used ...

First i'm attached to my product .. it's like antiques ..many of us want THE OBJECT , the ITEM ..i want a support for my games to be on ... i don't want to be forced to have a subscription to some service ( like onlive ) because i don't own the item , i have no way to manage my saves or to lend it to someone .
Cloud computing , seen THAT way is not the future it's a regression.

There are many good uses IMO of cloud computing ( uncharted CLOUD multiplayer servers are one heck of a good example ) but onlive is NOT a good example IMO . WHAT i want is my product in my hands for my uses ...

[Budg3tG4m3r]

It's inevitable that we move forward and with bigger hard drives and high speed. Bluray even DVD will be around for along time because not everyone can afford to be early adopters. By the time everyone gets their hands on Blu we will have moved to the next stage. Progress keeps us moving forward, you can't stop it or wish it away. You can right now download everything you want in the highest quality in just a few min or a few hours depending on your connection. Mobile phones and internet connection are everywhere and don't forget internet, Live, cable and Sat services offer movies on demand in 1080p. You can get games on demand right now through Live, Steam, IGN, and even PSN. Blu-ray will one day be the next DVD as DVD now is the next VHS.

Mr Bun you are off topic yet your comment is still here???

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

This generation has been among the best because of the fierce fighting of two large companies, MS and Sony. To this end, we have enjoyed enormous growth in console features and genre breaking games.

Instead all we hear about is the shortcomings and the only reason is there are differences. There is no reason why games can't be split into multiple discs. Very few games if any require all the content to be on one disc.

If it weren't for MS, we would all be playing single player games with no rumble and achievement. If it weren't for Sony, we wouldn't have great exclusives and affordable free online play. If it weren't for the Wii we wouldn't get great family games with motion controls.

Yes, as much as I don't play casual games there are some great ones out there that are fun to play with friends and family.

[MmaFanQc]

LMAO......

[40cal]

This has been a problem for years now. You guys remember Project Gotham's cant fit everything on the disc.

@ Jason 360

Digital Download will not take over the disc medium until bandwidth caps are removed. Even now I struggle to stay under my cap just with game demos, the small DL games and playing online.

[jack_burt0n]

1tb ps3 hdd's are already here no need for next gen.

[syanara]

FFXIII is on 3 discs on the 360 AND THIS IS WHAT YOU GET?

[ChozenWoan]

You've hit the nail on the head.

But I think it will be the handheld consoles that begin the cloud computing revolution. The PsP2 and/or the DSCloud as they will be portable and have screen resolutions that are sub HD, making the bandwidth requirements much more manageable.

The next Home consoles (gen 8) will still use Discs, but the gen 9 consoles will be solely cloud based. By gen 10 Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft will be simply different service features on TVs, kind of how HBO, Showtime, and Cinamax are different services offered by cable companies.

[kneon]

yes disk will die one day but we're still a long way off from that day. Broadband capacity is not growing anywhere near the pace of demand. I think my cable connection has doubled in speed in 10 years. That is very slow compared to other technologies.

Meanwhile BD capacity is growing as well. Sony just recently announced a new technique to allow 30gb per layer with a firmware upgrade. No hardware change is needed, so the PS3 could do 60Gb this year. 100gb BD exists and there have been demonstrations up to 500gb. And then there are new disk technologies that will one day takes us into terabytes per disk. They exist now but they have limitations that need to be overcome before that can be mass market products.

You can count on the PS4 supporting at least 100gb on a disk. We're likely 2-4 years away from the PS4 and I can guarantee that it will still be a PITA to download 100gb in that time frame.

Even a 100gb limit will be problematic in the not too distant future as there are so many new things coming that will require additional storage such as 3D, Quad HD, 9.1 surround.

[CrazzyMan]

I mean, the one, which will have more space on media format.

But seriously, x360 came in 2005, so by the end of 2010 it will be 5 years on the market. And even every PlayStation console(with NEW DISC format) comes after 6 years. So it`s definitely a time to change DISC format(which is here in GAMING since 2000).

Actually, i think PS3 still could stay here for next 2-3 years, because graphics definitely will satisfy gamers for next 2-3 year, so and blu-ray capacity. Even x360 graphics in most games are good enough.
BUT DVD is really what holding this gen GAMING.

[likedamaster]

I'm sure Microsoft is aware of this. Well, at least I hope they are for next gen.

[johover112]

I remember when I saw the first Gears of War (which was awesome!) I said to myself "All this crap fits on a DVD!?" then Gears of War 2 came out and I said "All this crap fits on a DVD!?" ....then finally, Halo: ODST was released and I said "Wait, 2 DVDs...its about freaking time!...that sucks btw." and now Final Fantasy 13 is 3 DVDs, Microsoft need to make hard drive installation mandatory!

[Shepherd 214]

As long as in the next gen Microsoft chooses to build their console so that the disk drive will use something like HD-DVD discs, they should be alright. That will keep them from having to use Blu-Ray discs and they can have much more storage space without giving money to Sony.

[hazardman]

I think that's how much gb a dual layer DVD has..man Xbox should have launched with the HD DVD drive and we would not be having these discussions..

[Old Greg]

my copy of forza 2, came on one disc. am i missing one?

ontopic: I dont think its that big of a deal right now. dev's seem to be handling the space pretty well, and there alot that can be achieved by optimizing the tools and engine you use when creating your game. i can see it being an issue next gen, but not in this one.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

Within 2 console generations (read 10 years), we will completely shift to digital downloads only!

Yup, retailers will sell you redeem codes and place holder package for your shelf. You say, what about people with internet? The majority of the gaming population will have broadband access.

Ironically now, the people without internet access now and need disc based games likely aren't pirates.

[MetalFreakMike]

My internet speed is at 50 mbps with a 10 mbps upload speed but my internet is still capped at 250 gb! If I download all of Sony's games on their PSN network, for one I would run out of space on my hard drive pretty fast (500 gb hard drive). Second, my internet company (Comcast) would be calling me, complaining about my bandwidth usage and then threating to disconnect my service. And last but not least third, even if they took the cap off and let me download as much as I want, I would still want to own a disc copy of my games.

When you download from XBL and PSN, as long as you have a account with that service, then you can keep playing your games. But say if you get your account banned? Well then I guess your SOL. MS has it where if your not connected to the internet then you do not get to play your games anymore. And yes I do know about the DRM thing where you can have it so you can play your games without being online but how long will that last? What if something happens to your hard drive? Hard drives do not last forever. Same for Sony, if your hard drive craps out and your account is banned then you do not have those games anymore.

All I am saying is DD is a bad idea because if something happens to your account or you get banned for something dumb or even if you deserved it, then you lose all that money you spent on those games and then end up with nothing. They can keep this idea on the back burner until they can figure out how the customer can not get screwed with this kind of idea.

[darthv72]

it has been since launch. I must admit though, canning hddvd as a movie format was a wise idea but they should have kept it for days like this.

Not sure what kind of cost it would incur but if MS wanted to play diplomat they would offer up free drive replacements to anyone who bought a 360 since 07.

I see no reason the hddvd format wouldnt make for a suitable replacement for the current dvd. I bet they have thousands of units that could be retrofitted and pressing systems ready to churn out games.

Notice I didn't say 05/06. The early units didnt have hdmi so I chose what I thought was the year it became standard.

[NCAzrael]

@IronFistChinMi

So when do we get to claim the lives of Tim Willits' children? He said he swears on the lives of his children that nothing was cut from Rage due to disc limitations, but we know for a fact that Id had to remove an entire 1/3 of the game.

[Foxgod]

Theres an easy solution to that.
Use two disc's, or even three.

Theres no rule out there that defines that current gen games have to be on one disc only.
And what can fit in a blu ray, can fit on 2/3 dvd's, thanks to the fact that the 360 dvd drive has no problems reading compressed game data on the fly.

Compressed cgi is another story ofcourse, as compressing video causes a noticable loss in quality, compressing data however, does not.

[PirateThom]

This has been noted TIME and TIME AND TIME again.

Microsoft CHARGE publishers more for multi-disc games, a process that hurts games because the cuts have to be made to reduce the space used and, in the end, consumers, who have to pay for the extras.

It's not as easy as "yeah, 3 discs is fine" because Microsoft are, obviously, trying to prevent it.

[qface64]

from what i hear i dunno if its publishers or developers but they get charged extra for using multiple discs (something like that)

i dunno how much publishers pay to manufacture games but im guessing adding extra discs to it is just resources down the drain

if it costs them 10 extra cents to add an extra discs then it will add up to money they don't really need to be spending

but again like i said im not really sure on the matter???

[SilentNegotiator]

"what can fit in a blu ray, can fit on 2/3 dvd's"

That's false and you are well aware.
We already know that FF13 takes THREE discs and uses compressed video/audio, with cutscenes in 720p (Instead of 1080p, as on the PS3 version). Try FIVE or SIX discs. And we know the publishers don't want to waste that much time (And thus money) or material on a single game.

[Foxgod]

You guys lack vision.
If it really becomes a big issue, then MS will obviously drop the extra charges.

Just think for a bit, its all a matter of business perspective.

@Silentnegotiator.
Are you for real?
You just confirmed that a 60 hours rpg fits on 3 dvd's, and yet you insist 6 would be more accurate.
There will not be a single 5 or 6 disc game on the 360, if you believe otherwise then youre far off from reality.

[Corrwin]

"And what can fit in a blu ray, can fit on 2/3 dvd's, thanks to the fact that the 360 dvd drive has no problems reading compressed game data on the fly."

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. If what you said were true, FFXIII wouldn't have lower texture quality and a lower resolution, because it could just "read compressed data on the fly".

[SilentNegotiator]

"You just confirmed that a 60 hours rpg fits on 3 dvd's"

If you like compressed to heck video/audio/textures/etc, sure.
You know that the data was compressed to about half (I can't even imagine how awful the quality lose and load times will be like), right? THREE discs and still they had to compress it in HALF.

[Rainstorm81]

I think your math is a little off. Depending on the blu ray size, if its a 50 GB blu ray then you need at least 6 discs.

Although you are partly right, we will never see a 50gb multiplat game because of this. No Dev wants to pay for that many extra discs so content cuts get made.

I think if MS had decided to go with HD DVD two of their current problems would be immediately solved. Disc Capacity & Piracy

@Fox
So you would rather have a compressed game with compressed video?? I agree there isnt any dual layer blu ray games yet, but its almost guaranteed we will never have a 50GB multiplat this gen, Devs wont even need to try.

I just get the best version of games, Bayonetta on 360 and FF13 on PS3. In the end I (the consumer) doesnt want to get screwed.

[Model]

Tell me Foxgod how do you want to use those "visionary" multiple discs in sandbox games like GTA ? Crossing the street = disc swapping ?

[Foxgod]

Like i already said, compressing textures and audio does not cause a noticable loss in quality.
Just compare it to compressing data in a zip file, if you open the zip file, and from the zip file you open the file, you get the same file, nothing is lost.

Only compressing video causes a noticable loss in quality, and FF13 is an extremity in video data, as it contains over 10 hours of CGI, if a game with 10 hours of CGI can fit on 3 dvd's, then any game can.

@Delumine,
Go play Rage when it comes out, sandbox shooter, 2 disc's, no problem.

@Raiinstorm81.
My math is not off, Theres not a single game out there that fills up a double layer blu ray (biggest game is metal gear S4, and its 32gb).
And even then you have to take in consideration that data on 360 disc's is compressed, making the size even smaller.

@Jdoki
Rage was never cut back, you refer to the rumored third wasteland that would have been in the game, believe me, there never was one.

[Jdoki]

The problem here foxgod is that just upping the number of discs is not always the answer.

Some games need large environments streamed from one source. Rage has had to be cut back because of the 360's DVD limitation.

I don't care about disc swapping in games which are linear, or have natural break points. But it stands to reason that some developers are having to scale back their ambition because space is now an issue. DVD is holding back some developers and therefore also the industry.

[Model]

"no problem" ? ...you mean sub HD graphics (ff13) ?... complaining developers (Lost Planet 2) ?.. infact those 2 discs for Rage you are talking about are 1 for campaign and other for multiplayer...so i still see a problem with swapping discs in open world games

[Foxgod]

There are no subhd gfx in FF13, those shots are fake.
Lost planet developers are not complaining, they are using the dvd as an excuse to shove DLC down your gullible throat.

And rage does not have one disc for multiplayer.
Rage is composed of two large desert area's, one area on one disc, and one on the other.

Cant believe how full of crap you guys are.

@Corrwin below
Yes, but not on the 360, cause the drive and memory are fast enough.
All 360 games are compressed, and hardly any of them load slower then their ps3 adversaries.

Do you people even read/remember things, or are you just making stuff up on the spot to counter things?

@Delumine below.
Your point may sound logical to you, but this article does not come from developers, its random jittering from a journalist with an opinion.

There may be a few complaints here and there, but fact is and remains, the 360 got some amazing games this gen, so dvd works fine this gen.
The next xbox will obviously use another format.

@Pennywise,
Just like always, your arguments are short and meaningless.
You really need to learn how to argument things.

@Baka,
You are wrong, exclusive ps3 games dont use the full blu ray either, like i already said, Metal gear solid 4 is the biggest one (32gb), and its full of uncompressed audio that take up most of the space.

[Corrwin]

Quality doesn't have to suffer, but loading times increase.

[Model]

Foxgod you're right, DVD 9 is totally fine,it certainly isn't gimping games and developers are stupid, they are limited not the HOLY DVD 9
;) in case you are limited too... /S

[Pennywise]

Foxgod, you are so wrong its not even funny anymore.

Only thing that holds less than a DVD is your argument.

edit: LOL!! I need to learn how to argument things! Even if you aggravate me with your opinions, you are pure comedy gold! Thanks for the laughs day after day.

[Baka-akaB]

The fanboyism take a whole new level indeed this generation of gaming . Only now can you see anyone advocating that going backward in space could be in any way a good thing . The 360 games are obviously excellent , but there is no denying they would have been even better if given more space .

Stop with the "xx games dont use the whole blu ray" excuse fools ... half of them couldnt even if they wanted to ... since the common goal these days is to have identical versions no matter what .

And that's not even the point anyway . It always took time for devs to use the full capacity of snes and genesis cartridge , n64 cartridge , cds , dvds etc etc ...
The bottom line and and core of the issue is , that even when you wouldnt necessarily use it , having the option available to you makes a world of difference in game designs .

Having a sizeable and comfortable margin let you focus on creativity , while worrying about space put a dampener on your mind .
Of course uncharted 2 could be made on a few dvd instead , but would it have been the same ? Absolutely not , the constant focus on making the game fit on the lowest possible amount of disks would make you cut corners when possible and needed .

[Mr_Bun]

Like fox said...You need to learn how to "ARGUMENT" things, LOL!

I'm thinking foxgod should start using google translate for his broken English

[sikbeta]

@Foxgod

WTH are wrong with you, the only thing "Relevant" you said:

"If it really becomes a big issue, then MS will obviously drop the extra charges"

The problem here is that M$ needed to do that since the beginning, not now that is starting to be So Obvious, you understand that this "move" only affect gamers right?

If Devs can't fit a Game on 3Discs, they just cut and then charge you for a DLC ala RE5 and the whole "episodes" and such...

[Blaze929]

http://www.shacknews.com/fe...

"Microsoft is not being dckheads," he said. "It was a simple kind of miscommunication. Microsoft does not charge a royalty per disc, but there is a cost of goods that goes along with manufacturing. "

You were saying?

[rawd]

*sits back sipping coffee, watching Foxgod cluck like a bot chicken*

[ProjectVulcan]

What do you do for streaming open world games like GTA??? Fact is GTA4 struggled to fit on one dvd it actually maxed the capacity for 360, but what about the next GTA? Rockstar will be extremely constrained by dvd. You could say they could make an install on 360 mandatory, but microsoft said that ALL games would run on ALL machines, as several million 360 owners do not have hard drives. Low profile games have required a hard drive before like Football manager, but imagine the outcry if a huge IP game like GTA requires a hard drive for installation on 360!

I actually hope that rockstar only make the next GTA for PS3, because i do not want 360's dvd drive forcing them to hold back on the scope of their next game.

[The Wood]

and who pays for those costs........same bloody difference?

it show that more disks just isnt a solution for every project so somethings gotta give. Many of your best game MAY have been better if it weren't for dvd<9

I tell you what guys

FOXGOD deserves a medal....yeah i know his talk is mainly derived from false facts but he's here fighting us off so to speak....the question is where are the other bluray/larger media not needed/blackhole compression champions ..............nowhere. Anybody who loves gaming should be hoping ALL players make use of a HD medium next gen and at least acknowledge the bottleneck caused by dvd this gen

[Redempteur]

@foxgod ..
your numbers are old ...this was true in 2007/2008 but since then ff13 uses at least 38gb on the ps3 version.

And of course un compressed audio is not an issue .. why use MP3 when you can have surrond 7.1 uncomressed audio for optimal experience ..

More space allow for unrestricted use of the media in order to have the most impressive game they can ..

Think uncharted 2 will be the same thing in 2.0 than in the impressive 7.1 the game has ????..i don't think so

[Saigon]

You are really defending the 360 to its fullest and making excuse to why its ok for MS to do what its doing. There is nothing wrong with that but you need to look at your comments.

For Rage, there was a report from Carmicheal once they completed the game at first. He stated the game was roughly 38GBs without removing content. He expressed his concerns then because he knew of MS charges. That is what most people are referring to. This statement was made over a year or two ago.

Your defending a compressed game. Well all I have to say is once you go uncompressed you never go back. MS made a mistake this generation and it is going to catch up with them sooner or later. Rumbles started in 2008. In 2009 most stayed quiet about the issue and late in the year devs came out of the closet expressing their anger. And I am not surprised that the rumbles have happened again.

The reason this is happening is because devs are looking a the games Sony 1st party is releasing...and saying damn...I want my game like that. The whole point is that we all knew eventual this would be MS downfall, we just don't know when.

Seriously, MS is holding back every multiplat game. FF13,GTA4, etc. Its even holding back some of its own games. Remember what happened with Forza 3...

[bjornbear]

oh fox you remind me of Mark Corrigan* from Peep Show x3

[Nineball2112]

Foxgod, I think I know what your issue is...

[-Alpha]

"Lost planet developers are not complaining, they are using the dvd as an excuse to shove DLC down your gullible throat."

That's quite a possibility, but I have no reason to doubt that they simply have issues with the dvd. Let's face it, the technology is catching up to MS as devs are wanting to make bigger games but cannot. I wonder if the PS3 version will have the extra content on the disc. If it does, then it proves that MS's DVDs are holding their gamers back.

MS does have great games coming this gen, I agree with you, and I dont see multi-discs as too much of an issue: if you need another disc, use it. However, if what 2.0 said is true then MS charging for discs is ridiculously limiting for devs.

Let's face it: regardless of the games MS has coming this year their technology was very short-sighted.

[likedamaster]

You're DEAD WRONG!

Actual quote...

"Microsoft does not charge a royalty per disc..."

http://www.shacknews.com/fe...

Argument void, try another.

on topic/
I've said this before, Microsoft I'm sure are aware of this and already have a solution for next gen on this very issue. Later fangirls.

[Gue1]

http://www.shacknews.com/fe...

"Microsoft is not being d1ckheads," he said. "It was a simple kind of miscommunication. Microsoft does not charge a royalty per disc, but there is a cost of goods that goes along with manufacturing. "

---------

Devs still have to pay for additional discs so the argument stands true losers. L0L

Try to spin that, I just owned you with your own argument and link. XD

[Godmars290]

MS will only drop the fees for multiple discs when devs start skipping the 360 completely because it will generally be less of a hassle to make one disc PS3 titles.

[kneon]

Comparing compressing textures to a zip file is silly. The compressability of data is highly correlated to the nature of the data, specifically the amount of repetition within the data. Text data can usually be compressed to sizes significantly smaller than the original, this is not usually the case with images.

Try putting a JPEG or PNG in a zip file. Usually such a zip file will be larger than the original image due to the zip format overhead. This is because JPEG and PNG files are already compressed. Zip compression is lossless compression which means what you get out of the file is exactly what you put into it. Bit for bit perfection is what is needed since this is designed for data, not images.

Images don't always require lossless compression so you have options. If you are going to go for lossless image compression then it's going to cost you. Either the level of compression will be moderate, or the compression/decompression algorithms are going to be more compute intensive. So you are going to pay for it either with added storage requirements or additional CPU overhead.

So what usually happens is that developers have to make trade offs between storage, image quality( and quantity), CPU cycles and also disk read bandwidth. Storage, CPU cycles and disk read bandwidth all have fixed upper limits and need to be shared for other aspects of the game. So the one parameter over which developers have the most leeway is image quality.

[unchartedgoty]

fact imo lol

[champ21]

not really, its not much of an issue.

They can install harddrives for larger games, however the developer will need to pay royalties to microsoft for every extra disk. We all know how microsoft likes the exta $$. The developer probably wont be too happy.

Digital download is a good alternative to this problem. Though consoles going DD wont be a good thing for the gamers.

[table]

how much are these royalties? What is the legal obligation to it? I'm genuinely interested to know.

[SilentNegotiator]

"They can install harddrives for larger games"

What do the millions with an arcade 360 do, then? Spend another $100 for one game?

[Corrwin]

Wouldn't be such an issue if MS lowered the cost of their HDDs. But they won't, so they can't do that.

[champ21]

microsoft probably wont lower the prices of the HDDs. Their prices are rediculous when it comes to accessories, Though thats something Xbox users knew they were gonna be getting into when they bought the console.

@SilentNegotiator

When they bought the console it was understood it will be expensive in the longrun. Paying 10usd-20usd extra per game doesnt hurt them, They dont mind paying to go online, so whats another 100usd for the hard drive for them. Rip off i agree.

[Corrwin]

Not according to Greenberg - there's a quote from him that MS knows people buy the 360 because it's cheap up front, and they rely on that.

Your average consumer doesn't go into a shop and calculate how much something will cost in a couple of years (even if they're buying a car). They think how much is it initially and maybe for a couple of months after.

Those kinds of people make up the bulk of any fanbase.

[Baka-akaB]

Still , and i speak as one of the arcade owners , there were no reasons for us to invest in a Hdd unlike some others folks .

You still can't even copy to the disk

It being optional ruled out the possibility of it being a requirement for any game besides mmos (who most never really expected anyway anytime soon ) .

And some of use knew we wouldnt be caring much about online and digital games and videos .

[tudors]

hold more data? and yes there are royalties to pay for extra disks.

[jerethdagryphon]

dvd 9 is the largest feasible single sided disc the problem isnt disc area but the size of the laser used the phisical pits ethced into the disc itself,

The blue laser has a wavelength of 405nm compared with the wavelength of 650nm for DVD which utilises red laser technology. The benefit of having a blue laser with a shorter wavelength means it is possible to write smaller data pits and therefore vastly increase the amount of data on the disc

tighter beam = more data, and while blurays can read dvd data theres no method of tighning up a beam on a dvd to read the smaller data.
regardless of how you look at it dvd is small now

in addition. compressed data on the fly really means

running a programm to open the archive extract decompress the required data and run it, without referencing naother progrma or taking a break, there IS a proformance hit when doing this even on modern computers, most programs dont really do it on the fly but extract ahead of time to disk cache or active ram...

in more simple terms cpu power that could be used to run direct game functions is instead used for decompressing instead.

[likedamaster]

No there isn't... it just costs more to manufacture more discs.

[Basil-Rathboner]

Think what GTA4, Resident Evil 5 and many other games could have achieved if the developers were not restricted to 6.8gb.

PS3 multiplats suffer as a result of micro$hafts format and greed in charging for extra space.

Dont worry though we can always get dlc, in the form of content that should have been on the blu ray in the first place and we take a further shafting lining the greedy pockets of the developers. Capcom i am looking at you.

Micro$haft are destroying this generation.

[mesh1]

HAHAHAHAH THE DROIDS ARE FUNNY ALAN wake.halo reach,splinter cell and many other are filled with more content than any ps3 game this gem and look better !not to even mention the amounbt of content in halo 3 haha ps3 journlist are funny!

[stb]

The fact that you say more content while is discussed that the dvd cant handle a fcking merely 6 max 9 gb of data, really sad to think of such apish nescience, and more sad is to think your family have to deal with that.

Hope you get fixed that bird brained of yours.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Yeah because mandatory installs because of slow drive speeds is soooo cutting edge ;0 like done on PC 20yrs ago cutting edge :)

[PirateThom]

Using all aspects of a machine is a bad thing?

Only in Microsoft Land where 6.8GB DVD, no standard HDD, no standard wireless and paying for online is acceptable would that be true.

[Model]

Jason gets owned every time ;)

[blackmamba707]

face it, bot
only thing you will get out of it is CCC titles :

Cut
Compressed
Compromised

go play your SD games on multiple DVDs

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Have a hard drive on my 360 and have never been forced to install... anything. How many installs have you had to do?

[Whitefox789]

Blu ray uses a shorter laser wavelength to store more data on it, hence forth more data = slower reading. If 500 gb DVD's came out they would also require a laser with a shorter wavelength to read those discs. Besides you have nothing to complain about since DVD's were a joint project by Sony and Philips.

[nix]

"have never been forced to install.."

wow.. i guess you didn't take full advantage of a certain 'definitive racing' game.

[Tony-A]

Hey Jason!

Do you not realize that most 360 games don't require installs because not all 360's have HDDs?

Let's count how many PS3 games required multiple discs because of storage issues....

[rawd]

haha multipwnt

[Budg3tG4m3r]

Installing and switching disc are both a pain in the ass and both have disadvantages. MS said DVD's would be fine and now they come on multiple disc. Sony said Blu-ray is best for gaming but require you to install the game. I can't see how any of you could be defending any of it, you are all wrong.

[infamousinfolite]

Just give it a rest man you've been owned, many a time.

[BX81]

I gotta be honest here. I don't think this is really an issue for this gen. If you want to make and publish a game with more content then make it. If you have to put it on multiple discs then make it happen. If MS charges for the extra disc either pay it or STFU and put it on a blu ray disc. No one is breaking arms to keep the games on DVD format. I personally have been satisfied with both blu/dvd this gen. There have been some outstanding games to come out plus some in the future using the dvd format. If it is a big issue for devs and publishers than man up and go with blu ray format only. MS really screwed the pooch on the format issue but I really don't see it really being a make or break issue just yet. Think of all the games that don't use up all of the blu ray space. Now lets cry about how that space is not being used up. Either way Sony obviously thought this issue all the way through!

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

Why dont u guys pull out your cassets,VhS, and 8 tracks..

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

Need a HD storage medium....That only make since unless you want short games like GeOW...(which we have a lot of )

[siyrobbo]

unless you want short games like GeOW

and heavenly sword....

[da305kratos]

heavenly sword was a early in the cycle game smartypants

[siyrobbo]

gears was 2006....

[Akagi]

This isn't really news, everyone knows DVD has been a hindrance to M$.

[OmegaSlayer]

Unfortunately people that weren't too smart to see the end of their noses buy products from a company that doesn't deserve consumer's money, since they're not ethic, and they keep creativity chained.
MS only want money (even Sony and Nintendo), but Microsoft does the least to gain it and they do it in a mafia like way.

If you really love games, stop supporting Microsoft

[Oner]

"Unfortunately people that weren't too smart to see the end of their noses buy products from a company that doesn't deserve consumer's money, since they're not ethic, and they keep creativity chained.
MS only want money (even Sony and Nintendo), but Microsoft does the least to gain it and they do it in a mafia like way.

If you really love games, stop supporting Microsoft"

QFT!

[divideby0]

Starting...welcome to more than a year ago when Rockstar was the first non first party developer to say this...
As we go through this gen...its clear that Sony knew what was needed with this gen of consoles....disagrees are just in denial.
if you have a 7.x system, the audio is alone worth the price of BR

[ceedubya9]

really sped up this format race. DVD would have been fine if that was all that was used....but you can't deny the benefits of a high definition disc.

You really can't blaim Microsoft for creating the 360 with a DVD drive. It was good, inexpensive choice for them at the time, and has done okay for the thus far. Sony was in a better position to take a risk by helping to usher in a new format. Microsoft...not so much.

Perhaps Microsoft can find a way to adopt the blu-ray format or some other large capacity format for a new Xbox 360. Sure, some gamers may be left behind at some point, but sooner or later publishers will be requiring something bigger and better to make their game ideas and dreams come true.

I have no doubt that Microsoft will make a move at some point, somehow. The question is, how long will they hold out?

[table]

They will hold out until next gen which could be as soon as 2 years away. There is no point this far into the console cycle to make a 360 compatible with blu-ray. It is not an absolute when there is still a second/third disc option for developers. I too don't begrudge them for it, I agree with your second paragraph.

[MGRogue2017]

I don't see Avalaunche Studios complaining about that problem with their Just Cause 2 game..

Look at how huge the world is on that! ... :D

[Baka-akaB]

the funny thing with that tired kind of argument , is that if you ask those guys from Just cause 2 , if they'd would have liked more space made available to them , and if to would have helped them make an even better game ... the answer would absolutely be yes .

The argument was never about game sucking on dvd , of course they still rocks , they still even can on 1mb or flash apps ... the point is there is hardly any valid reason to argue against the possibilities of even better games .

[bjornbear]

since the PS3 version of Just Cause 2 has extra content like gameplay recorder and other stuff.

[Baka-akaB]

eehhh pretty cool then . i wasnt aware since while it's a excellent and well done game , it sadly doesnt really interest me .

But good to know that for once someone try squeezing more without squeezing us

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

Yeah it suppose to be huge but it wont have the detailed locations like Uncharted 2 and Heavy Rain

[Lirky]

dual layer 9gb isnt enough for this gaming-era especially for hd content, and audio. But theres ways around it to where developers can manage to make good software on 1 discs, ps2 had masterpieces on 1 discs from ico to sotc. I just hope devs can use blu ray to include a free-roaming world that never gets old.

[DoctorXpro]

MS don't force you to buy a 360, you just buy cuz you want.....

Anyway GT2 had 2discs and Sony didn't look worried about..

[PirateThom]

Yeah, but the 360 is affecting development of games on PS3 and PC as well. Its limitations affect everything.

Yeah, Sony definitely weren't worried when they used DVD the next gen due to increasing game sizes.

[champ21]

ps3 & 360 hold back development of good looking games too.

i wonder what ati and nvidia will do if this keeps up. anyone having a gpu from 3 years back on pc doesnt need an upgrade any more due to games being designed with consoles in mind too.

[AuToFiRE]

GT2 was on 650 meg CD-ROMs, that was the highest capacity media format available back then, it was acceptable, in this generation of gaming its just not acceptable anymore

[Chucky2003]

lol,a dvd doesn't even have 9gb,it has 8.7gb its a big difference and you can't use them all ,you can use 8,5 maybe 8,6 depending of what are you putting on the disk

besides this will become a serious problem starting this year,we will have tons of DLC,things evolve and by the looks of it really fast,not talking only about the DVD but in general,this is the difference between Sony and M$,Sony all the time is thinking ahead wile M$ is trying to create a fast product and sell it fast,it doesn't matter if it good or not,they will eventually say they made a mistake and move on,ex:Windows Vista

[MGRogue2017]

I've got a 120gb hard drive equipped on my Xbox 360 Elite .. so what's the problem?? xD

.. Yeah, I know.. Not everybody has a hard drive on their Xbox 360s.. But don't you guys think that's an excuse that we should drop now & make hard drives mandatory for some games?

Microsoft should just make the 20gb hard drives cheaper & maybe include 'em with some games that require it & developers will be happy, We'd get much higher quality games, for sure aswell.

[insomnium]

just proves the point that things are fuc*ed up in so many ways because of the x360. This is exactly the thing many of us PS3 owners have been trying to say all along.

MS with their short sightedness and hit'n run tactics has polluted the gaming industry to an extent. All the BS they spoke about Sony too about DVD being enough and "lol for GTA4 mandatory install" etc. etc.

Sems like EVERYTHING is coming back to bite them in the ass just as some of us PS3 owners said they would.

You were all fooled by MS. Even the media went nuts and bashed and bashed the PS3. MS knows people. They knew all this BS would benefit them since people really are so short sighted and easily fooled by marketing.

[NateDPG]

"DVD is enough" "Sony is forcing an unproven format on gamers"

Marketing spin by MS, but the fanboys believed it :D

[insomnium]

I actually just said this above there before I saw your post=)

[stridershoge]

I believe it has now become an issue, at first we all felt Sony's prediction of a 10 year console was over the top but with both consoles adding big peripheral to the systems (Gem, Natal and even 3D gaming) the life cycle looks like it could not only reach that 10 year cycle but also surpass it.
MS will surely rue their lack of support for HD DVD, if they had included it built into the 360 hardware we could have not only being talking about two consoles with equal advantages but we could also have been talking about HD DVD being crowned the new king of HD Movies.

Obviously it is greed that has made this a problem for MS, in the next gen consoles they might have to look at blu ray when it could have been the other way round (Sony looking to HD DVD).

Right now we can still have an awesome experience with the DVD capacity as games like Fallout 3, GTA 4 and AC2 have shown but what would those games have been like if only developers have had more to work with.

[kneon]

Because it would have meant launching around the same time as the PS3 and at about the same price thus losing their two main advantages this gen. They would have also ended up competing for the supply of blue lasers which resulted in constraining PS3 production thus further reducing their sales.

Also HD-DVD was a long shot to ever succeed. It existed largely for political reasons and was not a significant enough leap over DVD to win in the long run. It was inevitable that the cost advantage would quickly become insignificant, as we've already seen. Had it not been for the "HD format war" Blu-ray players would be even cheaper than they are now. HD-DVD just slowed everything down. The cheapest blu-ray players are already into the $100 range.

[Bladestar]

I though it was an issue almost 5 years ago when the xbox 360 came out... lol!

The average console lifespan is 5 years... every mayor console from Nintendo, sega, atari, etc is being 5 years... guess what Sony leg humpers? The xbox 360 is already 5 years and still kicking.

I know no one wants to talk about a new console; but Microsoft based on history of console should almost start announcing a new console. It will probably not happen because of economy and all... but talking about what a console have or don't have 5 years after launch is pathetic to say the least.

Games are already starting to look obsolete thanks to PC directx 11... so the least of the concern is having to swap disc or storage capacity.

I am about to upgrade my PC to take advantage of directx 11 games... so, while you talk about Final fantasy and how it may have 2-3 more pixels on the PS3 and how it will come in 1 disc I will be playing games that look and play a generation a head regardless of what console you have. I hope microsoft do not curse gamers with some pathetic 10 years crap and release a console within the next 1-2 years or eventually many real gamers will move back to PC where they were before the xbox 360 came out.

[Darrius Cole]

The Xbox 360 has been on the market for 4 years as of today (Feb. 19, 2010). The Xbox 360 released in November 2005; it won't be 5 years until November 2010, nine months from now.

[Rowsdower]

MS should make a large hard drive standard and they could keep the games on dvd9 using CAB compression like they do with PC games, Crysis being an example. Or they could use bluray.

[Valkyre]

What pisses me off is that devs are using 360's disc space problems to make more money for themselves through DLC...

And I ask: Why the fack should a PS3 user, have to pay for Lost Planet 2 (example) DLC, just because 360 has disc problems?

And dont give me that crap "because both versions should be the same at retail"...If that is the case, why is COD4 on Wii looking like complete utter crap in comparison with PS3 and 360??

Answer: because Wii has crap GPU/CPU/hardware in general.

In the same way, so what if 360 has crap disc storage?Why should it affect PS3 development?Each game should take advantage of everything that a system offers.

I dont give a rats @ss about whatever problems 360 poses to devs.Thats 360's and MS's problem.And we have plenty of examples besides disc space where we can see that versions are never the same between multiple systems.

So, dear Capcom, i wont be the idiot who is gonna buy a half-made game because of other systems hardware failure, thank you very much you can shove that DLC up your behind...

[Baka-akaB]

that is the only thing that baffles me this generation . The newfound will of the devs to bow down to fanboyism , out of greed , when they dont even make the bulk of each console's ownership .

Like i keep saying , instead of optimizing each version of their multiplatform games for each console , like they always have till now ... they are happy sticking to only output roughly the same features and performances , with the cheers of people who didnt want to be left out "because owning the wrong console" (i insist on "") .

It doesnt hurt that it cost less and give them respite from any uproar about differences between games ... sigh

ps3 owners shouldnt be affected by 360's issues . Just like 360 owners shouldnt be affected by the ps3's problems .

And let's not even get started on people owning both , getting shafted at both end of the spectrum

[UltimateIdiot911]

Because Wii was never consider an HD Console. These publishers and devs know who the two real competitors are in "the console war".

If they start making the PS3 incredibly superior to the 360, you'll be a fool to limit yourself to a 360 and only buy the 360 versions of any multiplat. Eventually, it would go the way of last gen in a sense. No one will have a real reason to get a 360 other than for the exclusives. So in a sense, these devs and publishers are still fueling the console war and feeding the fanboy so they can more money. The dev and publisher can easily tip the scale in PS3 favor.

[GeoramA]

It has to be taking a toll on developers.

And with all it's limitations, should the 360 even be considered a "next-gen" system?

[Hotel_Moscow]

neither ps3 or 360 is next gen its current gen

[yoghurt]

Sony are ahead of the game, they have alot of experience in this industry and have done it time and time again. They bought out the 'expensive' ps3 wih blu-ray, everyone hated on it and said it wasn't needed bla bla bla, and now, it's needed. And as game developers push consoles even more with higher res textures etc, the data required will only get bigger.

same with hard drive, again, Sony are ready for the digital lovers, with an expandable hard drive using any standard HD, not some branded £100 one, sony are ready.

Same goes for 3D

People always find any excuse to hate sony, but truth is, they are ahead of the game and know what they are doing

[siyrobbo]

higher res textures etc

trouble is, the ps3 is limited by its gpu. it may be able to hold a lot of textures on a large disc, but its still limited by its gpu / memory

you can buy a 4 litre bottle of milk, but you will you can only fill your glass with the same amount

Also with the hard drive, i think MS got it right having it easily attachable and detachable (although the prices are a rip-off) A friend of mine who isnt tech savvy in the least bought a 360 arcade, and asked me to get a hard drive, i got one and gave it to her and she said, you'll have to fit it as i have no idea what to do, i told her it just clipped onto the side and she was impressed

if she had bought a ps3 she wouldnt have had a clue (she also wouldnt have needed a hard drive, so i suppose thats a +1 for sony and my point is a little moot)

[dustgavin]

That is incorrect because it is able to use a combination of both the cell and gpu. That is why they are able to push the envelope with graphics.

Don't you think it is a bit odd that the 360 was released a year earlier and it can not keep up with the PS3?

Uncharted 2
Heavy Rain
GT5
God of War 3

[CPmonkey]

Sure DVD has limited space, but the PS3's blu ray drive read speed is also an issue. SUre faster drives are available but the fact remains disc based media (both formats) are causing issues this GEN.

I'm a PS3 fan/user so im not saying this to defend the 360, but I feel that the real issue is physical media in general.

I am annoyed to hear content is being cut from Certain multiplat titles though, surely the 360 version could just come on 2 discs, the second disc having to be installed prior to playing the game.

[GenerationWinner]

And yet the ylod sh*t hardware is still in last place no matter how many articles fanboys write tryin to make 360 look bad. How many drive lasers did you go trough with your sh*t format lol blu ray and when it goes you have to pay repairs haha like many people i been told oucchhhh.

LOL rumor from yesterday: You want cross game chat then pay for it ahhh yee i forgot you dont have jobs so you cant cause all you do is sit on net all day pressin refresh button in browser on n4g hoping some news come up to make you justify your purchase but then again its still in last 3rd place. lollllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllll best laugh of the day for me.

Bye bye cant wait for alan wake and splinter cell conviction but mostly e3.

[stonecold1]

australia newzealand europe they all say hi 360 only winning in usa because it had a 12 mnth head start over the competion same with uk the rest of the world the ps3 outsells it so theres no problems there i can name country like russia africa germany sweden switzland the middle east china ps3 winning in those countrys over the 360 it would had been a diffrent story if the ps3 had came out at the right time we would know who would be ahead of the pack they already won 2 console war and m$ will never win and will never reach what ps1 and ps2 did go back to your bot

[djreplay]

I suppose you have plenty of time to troll while you wait for your 360 to get fixed.

[FiftyFourPointTwo]

Gimped hardware = GenerationWinner

[Ngai]

nee joh.. dit was toch al een probleem vanaf 't begin? Gaan ze het eindelijk zelf 's snappen?

[bjornbear]

http://translate.google.com...

[DoctorXpro]

I believe MS was not expecting 360 to sell like is selling, instead of 5 years cycle now its gonna be 8/9 years cycle for 360 and that is something MS didn't know in 2005.

Sony choose and well the Blu ray cuz they plan 10 or more years for the ps3.

[josh14399]

dvd is mainly fine but the main problem is games like grand theft auto. if rockstar want to make a bigger map for the next game which i think they should the game would probably have to be on two discs. Some people think this isn't a problem but i would find it very annoying changing discs every time i cross the map to a new area.

[Akagi]

Too bad M$'s pride won't let them have blu-ray, xbots.

[yoghurt]

@ siyrobbo

but developers have already said that you just have to develop a different way, using the spu's. I'm not technical by any means, but it's been said and shown and proven, that when using the spu's etc high res textures are not an issue, look at Uncharted 2, no loading between levels and some of he best graphics this gen so far

[Bluemaster77]

Not saying that the next xbox shouldnt incorporate some form of next gen optical medium , but DVD isnt game hindering at the moment just put the data on multiple disks and wha la your cool

[alphakennybody]

I can't believe how far some of the people here will bend over to defend it, I mean it's for your own good. After all those years of loyalty why not ask fora little more... oh wait it's to protect of some stupid pride after been proven wrong so many times.

[Enjoi915111]

for what a game like lost planet 2 ROFL....no thanks

[shikwan]

If this were really the case then why aren't devs making games on Blu-Ray for PCs???

[PirateThom]

That excuse makes no sense and I'll tell you why.

HARD DISC DRIVE.

Every PC has it, every game is installed to it.

A multiplatform game like Street Fighter IV requires 10GB of free space, the ISO is less than 6GB.
Crysis requires... 12GB and, again, the files on disc are about 6GB

The games may use DVD, but it's heavily compressed and decompressed when being installed. The 360 doesn't have this luxury/necessity.

[Baka-akaB]

Once again Thom nailed it .

With mandatory Hardrives pc hardly got space issues here . And since you ask , with Digital download being a bigger presence on pc , and with games selling less all around on pc , it wouldnt make sense to invest in a new media only a slowly but steadily increasing amount of pc owners got .

[jerethdagryphon]

because all pcs have harddrives, and a dvd can hold 12 gig data as long as thats all its doing if the data is compressed, pc runs everything installed fully except maybe some movies but thats not the point

[ForROME]

You call BS? Whats new its anti xbox news you call BS on anything MS negetive in style

[bjornbear]

I have only used DVD's recently for watching some movies

I haven't used DVD's for games since Resident Evil 4 (and maybe Total War: Rome x3) which was about a year ago, a little more.

so to me, DVD's + console = WTF?

[watchman]

It's funny Pc's still uses dvd format and I don't see no one complaining..And on top of that Grafix are better looking then anything on console hummmmmmm. Makes me wonder.

Fanboy's make me sick.

Power to multi-console owners who are the real gamers.

[Baka-akaB]

Like said above , pc got no issue dealing with ultra compressed data , since later installed in their full size on the drive . even pc can't read them on the spot without installs

Or are you going to tell use that most of our current pc games still fit a dvd when installed ? Lately the smalled size i see on the pc for an install is 7-8gb .

The second part of your argument , however i absolutely agree

[divideby0]

PC has the power to deal and change with newer demands on vid and audio consoles do not.
We own all the consoles and I get bashed from both ends...whenever I speak my opinon + or - for each console. Clearly from the get go I have favored the PS3 even at the launch price

[Rageanitus]

PC's have massive hard drives and all PC games have manditory installs.

Honestly PS3 is heading towards the right direction large media disc.. but IMO I wish they just do most of their game installs .... why cuz its faster to read data off a HD and knowing how optical drives work they sound noisy and they get nosier over time when they get old... hence making them die!. A HD on a ps3 is easier to replace than a optical drive.

Just look at the xbox its noisy! and If you have played diablo on PC it broke many optical drives cuz it was always seekign data from teh drive BOOM dead! plus it had slow load times as it generated items to be dropped as you killed someone.

[Slinger420]

LOL, the next GTA will have to be on three discs for the 360. Forget about The Agent, the PS3 exclusive developed by R* specifically for the PS3. This is why R* went with SONY, they have produced the console the will most likely have the best longevity and the tech is incomparable. The Agent will be a PS3 exclusive developed by R* North that will never come to 360 since it's being designed specifically for the monstrous specs of the PS3. Cry some more haters.

[divideby0]

I just finished ME2 the other nite and those who say disk swapping is ok..they are full of it..to me its a mood breaker...just like those elevator rides...
I am not knocking ME2, I am knocking the outdated storage of DVDs and compression

[OGharryjoysticks]

You NEVER would have heard this in America.

And be certain Microsoft has been in contact with Capcom making sure Capcom and all its employees are more conscience of what they say because Microsoft knows who is going to get the backlash if these words are ever printed again. Things like this are best kept quiet.

[jjesso1993]

not going with blu ray was so stupid think how big some multiplatform sandbox games could be if 360 had blu ray. and think of 0% piracy i dont think i would have my xbox 360 flashed if i had to download 25gb-50gb if you get 8 megabits connection 1 megabyte exactley then you get 25gb disc in in less 4 half hours that means my connection it would take more than nine hours to download and think your isp is not going to very happy with you are downloading 25gb every other day so microsoft could of stop piracy on there console stupid t**ts

[ReBurn]

When the 360 was developed there was no commercially available Blu-ray. There was no way they could have gone with it since BD-ROM specs weren't final until after the 360 released.

[giovonni]

So, you think the XBOX360 would have done better if it had a bluray when launched? Lets study some facts here, bluray is a Sony patent product that MS would pay roylties. Then to make up for the loss have to raise the price of the XBOX by at least 150.00 per system.
There is no way in sams hell MS would have survived doing so. MS knows the power of the Playstation Brand, and knew they had to establish it self first, The power is in the market share, Sony had the most market share right? But if MS can shift market share you gain power, and XBOX360 has done that.

Some of you guys are painting a small picture and basing MS's short comings because of something that, if adapted would have spelled doom for XBOX360. When you weight it all together the XBox360 has done its job, it has given MS some staying power for the next system. If not, look at the fan base, and the market share it has taken since it was first introduced.

[Time_Is_On_My_Side]

I have been thinking this ever since the DLC for Grand Theft Auto 4 being exclusive to the XBOX 360 and is now coming to the PS3. Microsoft seems to focus more about multi-platform games, while Sony focuses more on "real" exclusives. Another thing that makes me think that is Resident Evil 5 DLC to me could have been on the disc from what I was hearing.

This is why I think Sony exclusives have such a high quality (degree of excellence) than XBOX 360 titles. Microsoft is focusing on the "quantity" (volume) and the velocity (speed) of games on their platform. Look at Left 4 Dead vs. Left 4 Dead2 to Uncharted: Drake's Fortune vs. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves. In the end:

Left 4 Dead == Left 4 Dead2
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune < Uncharted 2: Among Thieves

[i3eyond the Circle]

Now that the "better graphiczzzzzzz" argument has been put to sleep by Alan Wake it's on to the next thing.

Was every developer supposed to fall in line for Sony because they have a larger disc format?

PC<<the damn format you swear up and down is superior to everything still uses it.

If Blu Ray was so important everyone would have jumped ship they didn't because it isn't.

Check the 3D0 for examples.

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

Alan wake isn't the detailed and to be honest by the end of it...it will not have as much detail as other games...and i expect the main story like to be about 12 hours at most...if that ....yeah and dvd took over vhs in 4 years too....(oh wait no it didnt)

[Midgard228]

u dont even know wat ur talkin about. u dnt even play pc games do u?

ALL pc games install, ALL OF THEM, and they take a damn long time to install too, thats y they dont need blu-ray, the dvd is a forrm of distribution, u put it in comp, install and thats it.

second alan wakes graphics dont even compare to uncharted 1's.

while i cnt wait for alan wake it doesnt mean that the graphics r amazing. and i dnt care aslong as its fun but for u to rant that wakes graphics r insane......well thats insane in itself lol.

and um its to late for MS and nintendo to use blu-ray, they have to wait till next gen to even think about that. its to late, the 360 is screwed and is starting to be left in the dust since last year, the fact that ps3s are hard to find and all of the exlcusives have been AAA shud be proof enough for u, but fanboyism is blind.

u dnt even own a ps3, u just rant from the sidelines. if u owned all systems like real gamers maybe u wud know what ur talkin bout

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

With blu ray maybe one day we will get the GTA in which we can go in every building....DD with America internet connection...NOT GONNA BE BIG NO TIME SOON IN THE NEXT 15-20 years

[ReBurn]

I don't think you'll ever get that GTA. Space is one thing, but the time and money to create a world with that kind of detail will be the biggest prohibiting factor.

[giovonni]

not a business it takes money to create the experience more content= more money need to develop which is then past on to the consumer. Trust me Dev's are like us they know we want bigger worlds and longer games, but honestly will it turn a profit?

[ReBurn]

Ah, so a rehash of the Capcom thing. I suppose Capcom has the choice to preserve their creative freedom and ship the game only for PS3 if they don't like the creative limitations that the 360 imposes on them. I guess their creativity doesn't extend to being able to work with what they have.

[maxcer]

I would say ship both games but flesh out the PS3 version if its possible.

[ReBurn]

I would be good with that. If it is possible to make a superior version on PS3 then go for it. It would really drive people to PS3, that's for sure.

[Leviathon6425]

Wasnt that the standard when multiplat games were released for Xbox/PS2.. Xbox release were superior to the PS2 ones.. dont know why they try to level them now.

[MrEko]

..I loved Metal Gear Solid 4. Sure it was great it was all on one disk but the time it took to load then install all that content made me wish I just could have switched disc. Swaping disc is not the worst thing in the world and I can see Capcom being a little long winded on the narrative with the next installment of Lost Planet. And really, in the end, its all going to be about the multiplayer anyway.

[PirateThom]

There was a reason for those installs though, as annoying as they were. DVD wouldn't have been enough.

There was A LOT of texture data in that game that had to be applied on the fly to the Octocamo. A lot of different textures for every level.

Go back to MGS3, try to apply new camo, even in the menu and on DVD, it takes a brief period to load and those camo types were all set, imagine MGS4 with the ability to load camo from numerous different objects....

Insane, the load times would have been near unbearable and broken the flow of the game even more since it would load EVERY time you pressed against an object.

[Midgard228]

lol and all the fanboys said that bluray was useless and standard dvd is the best or not bad.

poor morons lol, same idiots that thought the 8 new models of the 360 wud be rrod proof and that there wouldnt be a problem with disc storage :/ sux for ya lol. i mean thats like Snes using the original cartridges, no crap they wud run out of space

why is the 360 using ps2 dvds lol. if a ps2 game is multi disc wat made MS think that a next gen game wouldnt?

[The real killer]

" PS3 is limited by data read speeds, the developers can work around it"

Ever play Killzone 2/Uncharted 2 or other PS3 exclusive games?
Get your fact next time.

The reading speed is just fine, it read bigger amount of data in one time instead of multiple time's like DVD with 12 speed.

[Denethor_II]

The cracks are starting to appear!

[maxcer]

Capcom needs to grow a pair and use Blu-ray to their advantage and not worry that MS is going to give them the cold shoulder. This applies for all developers as well, it will show MS that they need to ease up on it's ridiculous policies regarding the 360, things like disc royalties, HDDless support and mandatory paid DLC.

If these companies start doing this MS will see they need to change and something might happen, but that is wishful thinking, in the end it just means devs wont need to work as hard on a project, and the extra content that doesn't make it into the game can be sold as DLC. its a win/win for MS and the devs but its also a loose/loose for us the gamers. people go where the money is, and right now there are close to 38million 360's out there, it's pretty hard to look past the potential to make a profit there

vote with your wallet, never buy cut DLC

[ForROME]

Here is the real issue, I have no problem with games needing a standard install, in fact I welcome it if the exp will be better the real issue is, Xbox doesn't come standard with a HD because MS likes making the money off the HD royalties, when they really should put at leats a 20GB on the arcade so they can design games ALL games with a HD in mind.

[Convas]

This and all the errors with the console itself. Microsoft really shafted us with this DVD9 format. And yes, I understand that it'll be a bit of a pride breaker for MS to admit to the World that they were wrong about Blu-ray, but it MUST be done. 3 years ago, DVD9 was still ok, but the way things are now, games are becoming bigger and bigger. I believe that if MS finally switched to Blu-Ray, a good part of this console war would die. Developers would finally have the storage medium to make games that could graphically stand up on their own legs.

With that said, I wouldn't say all is lost yet, I believe that MS is going to have a reformatted Xbox 360 with Blu-ray with Natal. I can't be 100% sure of this of course, but mark my words, by the end of the year, We will have seen something about either a new 360 or the NeXBox.

[Madeline12]

All this talk about disks will soon be the past lol

Once we get internet wireless speed of 1Tb/second you can kiss good buy to a lot of hard drives too.(not necessarily in a way though)

In fact scientists have already achieved wireless speeds between europe and america of way beyond 1Tb/s

[Tony Montana]

This is another reason that makes me proud of being a PS3 owner :)

[Automat]

GTA IV would have been so nice if it hadn't been butchered!

[hiredhelp]

Just want to clear somert up here.not that makes much differnce. at the moment devs mostly work on 25gb data disc .metal gear solid 4 and killzone 2 worked on the 50gb discalong with MG4 being the first. BUT THE 50GB ISNT THE LIMIT!! SONY HAS STATED THEY CAN EASYLY ADD ANOTHER LAYER IF NEEDED...
also earlyer in the read up here someone commented about cant wait for no disccs be all downloadable games. because of people like me in uk other countrys are very slow bandwidth most is with virgin 50mb download.thoe BT IN 2011 IS SAID BE COMMING OUT WITH THE FIRST EVER 100MB but im not holding my hopes too high. that will never happen. if it did be very bad move as it would make it easyer hack.
oh and no the games dont get slower as the disc gets fuller.. mentioned in the first page..
cheers guys.. (roll on heavy rain god of war)

[ForROME]

Well and to add to your comment we all know when you can DLed most things or even stream them, cable internet companies will take advantage and charge more for more usage,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh its coming

[artsaber]

Crow for all those 360 fanboys who said that Bluray was not needed.

But then again, Microsoft also said that HDMI & Wifi wasn't needed either. Go Figure. Can't really be in denial anymore since more and more devs are openly criticizing this limitation.

[frankymv]

GUARANTEED

[kurochi]

know what's funny about the 360 having issues with DVD capacity issues?
The fact that they did foresee this issue arising when they tried to push HD-DVD as an add-on years back. Yet the 360 fanboys keep on saying that blu-ray isn't needed and that digital download will be the future..... If MS really thought that DD is the wave of the future, why did they push out the HD-DVD onto their customers? If DVD is really all MS needs to have "bigger & better" games, why did they push HD-DVD as an add-on? Further proves the the short-sightedness of MS and the face that Sony looks to the future instead of being a follower like MS.

[DigitalAnalog]

If you think about it - "WHEN", in any succeeding generation did the capacity for games was smaller then the previous gen? Oh wait! Why are there 1 disk 360 based games smaller than the Wii's???? Don't make sense no?

-End statement

[JJFNIGHTS80]

It's all bout the money to M$. But they still don't see that DVD is causing problem storage for them, they don't care. FROZA 2 FFXXX THEY BOTH HAVE three disc. And wondering when M$ makes their next Xbox 360 if they are going to change their storage capacity disc.

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

DVD's are getting obsolete little by little. Like VHS Cassettes.

[ForROME]

what? the best porn is still on VHS =)

[Tzuno]

Well mister sony fanboy this show that xbox 360 can handle a game even if is not on a blue-ray disc and i see a lot of quality games on Xbox 360. If Xbox 360 can on a 8G dvd i wonder if ps3 can. Sony use a blue ray 25G-50G for games and there are games that launch on both consoles and if 360 use 6-7G for a game that launch as well on ps3 what ps3 do with that blue ray space? It make the game like on 360 using aprox. the same space like 360 and if so on a blue ray remains a lot of space unused or they use the entire space of blue ray. Because the difference between games that launch on both consoles is little. So how 360 can deliver quality on a 8G disk and ps3 need the blue ray?

[Morgue]

This is what you call a catch 22.

[yewles1]

Woe be unto the 360 fans should Sony implement i-MLSE into the PS3 on a firmware update this year. 33.4GB per layer, that's a whole DVD's worth in data increase per layer. Meanwhile, 360 discs will still be 6.8GB.

When PC, PS2, original XBOX, and Wii games hold more than 360 and cost less at retail, you KNOW Microsoft messed up this gen.

[gollumlotrs]

Well the way I see things (to date, and in future) is this,

"DVD" for a long while now has been short of storage space, and not just when concerning 360, but actually the media format itself, as ps2, dvd players,recorders, and even things like camcorders/portable devices and such, all have suffered with a "small" limited storage space when using "DVD" as it's main/only means of media storage,

we have seen now for some years this being the case when compression of data was needed to fit larger amounts of data onto an insufficient format, leading then to multi layered and/or double sided discs of movies as well as multi disc game releases, it is not these cases alone that have added to the need for larger size of formats, but also the added feature of HD content/cutscenes, bonus extras and multi audio track formats, given these as simply mere examples or such a greater need of larger storage format's, this then would have to lead me on to "BLU RAY" and "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS",

now dealing first with "BLU RAY", I would have to say this is currently my most favoured media format to date, as currently size of storage is a good 50gb ofr a dual layered disc, with talk or further size increase to the disc format in future, this in itself currently deals with the siae of HD content of this generation's use of HD media, and may well deal with it leading well into the future as the format gains an even greater hold on the market over "DVD", now this being said though, as we all know media formats come and they go!, so let me now talk about the possible future format, one of which is most likely "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS",

Well now, talking of "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS" as a replacement for an hard storage format would to "ME" seem so far off into the future, that if and when that was to be the case, the very need for hardware(in this case) an console itself would be in doubt!!, lets face it if downloads replace "DISCS" then all that would be needed would be a "TV" with highspeed internet, and the company making/owning the game would deal with the tech their end, leaving us only needing the ability to stream it to us, although this may seem like a way to go, how is the world going to get together and make super fast internet available cheap or free for all to use, when some still dont even have internet at all, it seems to me that in the search for greater control of content and storage use, they the companies who own the media will hit a problem, that being the greater loss of sales due to customers not beinf able to pay for such a service, and those who simple wish to own their paid for content, and not have it seem like they are renting it,but talking more directly about "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS" themselves, how is for the short term we are to store ourselves the very purchased content we own, onto seriously small sized "HDD'S" at current sized "PS3" games alone being a "currently" max of say 50GB possble per game disc, how are we to build a catalogue of game of such sizes onto a single "HDD" there would come a point when the harddrive simply becomes too full, and what if the "HDD" fails,who then pays for your need to then redownload GB's or TB's of data back onto another "HDD" as we all know even unlimited internet has it's fare usage policy, before they start over charging you for further data downloads, and not only that imagine the need for having to backup said "HDD'S" the time and effort it would take, let alone the cost of needing a second external HDD to place the backups onto,

this is why for me a "DISC" or at least some kind of hard media is always the best thing for a customer, that way you purchase it you own the disc you store it, so much simpler, and at very little cost,
just look at digital downloaded movies on psn here in the UK, a movie current release, is say £11.99 even potter was £12.99, my god not even full HD or 5.1 sound nor extras, or option to burn to disc, I could go to a store and get 2 movies on disc for that price, and with all the extras and case, and I dont have to think to myself oh I can only play it on this machine or use it on 5 other machines, with a disc you can watch it as many times and you like on and many machines as you like where ever you like, and on any disc playing device as you like, as well as converting it to any portable device that plays movie files,

simple put there is no way "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS" in the next few decades "at least" are in any way going to replace some kind or hard media format, ask youselves this for one, is your telephone company going to replace all the phone lines with fibre optics, erm no they aint going to do that, and even if they did, could you imagine the whole world needing to do it, to compete, so nope not happening for many decades, so we need "BLU RAY" at least for several years, until an upgraded disc fomat comes, al the intenet upgrading could be done slowly all over the world in stages, preparing for such a service to come, but it simply wont be a flick a switch service, and the next day we all ditch disc for downloads, simply not happening,

anyway, on the main subject of 360 and "DVD" not being enough in storage size, this is simply fact, hence compression and multi disc's, fine if you want to change disc and your ok with it, but that does not mean that the fatc of limited storage issues are indeed not the case, because they are and have been for a good long while, HD DVD alone proved this for the 360 when dealing with HD movies, and although it was a failure, in the HD format war, it or rather microsoft should have used it, with games, then im sure 360 would have had a format running along side blu ray, in the games market, after all 2 hd formats is better than having 1 hd format and one SD format on the market, which one is holding the other back, having to HD formats one for 360 and one for blu ray would have been better then hd would have taken off far quicker, if microsoft would have simply stayed with it, as there very own format, rather than having poor DVD format as the fallback option in failure, lets think about this further, would 360 compete better or at its best, if it actually had an hd format to run side by side with ps3's format, I beieve gaming as a whole would be able to push on and psh out greater games, if 360 would simply have adopted HD dvd as its hd format and stuck with it, taking over toshiba owning it, or at least funning now with an BLU RAY addon option, this would give longer life to this generation of games and lasting value for gamers as a whole, instead we are dealing with a war of games and gamers and consoles, over content size HD and value, when all of this would be pointless if 360 simply had BLU RAY or sme format of same size, this generation would then be only about what games are coming out and how fun for all they are, across consoles, but until that day, or next gen we will suffer this gen on both sizes of the console war, in hold back of ps3 due to 360 limits in media size, and that fact we have a HD (BLU RAY) media and SD(DVD)media disc war still today going on!!!!

[ForROME]

Seriously, dont ever, I mean ever, write something that long again, or your going down......yea, you heard me

[Hotel_Moscow]

you guys are crazy digital downloads will never work look at the psp go digital download no disc did that work out in the end no some storees wont sell them because its digital download only

[CryWolf]

360 is the biggest failure that ever came to gaming in history why wouldn't you have a Next-Gen DVD format on your console in the first place if anymore real Next-Gen system come out its required to have a new DVD format.

[BoneIdle]

Why not just make it a 2 disk set 1 with content you install then 1 you use to play.

I need disks as downloading a game is not an option with download limits of 30gb a month 1 or 2 games would blow that right open. Plus it would take me about a month to download considering a 250mb update can take 1 or 2 hours.

[ForROME]

EXACTLY I am ok with that, store the discs you need on HD and use 1 disc for playing, I dont see why MASS EFFECT didnt do this

[MetalProxy]

DVD capacity becoming an issue for 360? Well Duh! Anybody with simple math skills would have sean this coming a mile away.

[djfullshred]

I don't understand why some argue on the side of DVD. 360 owners should want improvements to their platform, not argue against the need for it.

DVD is over 15 year old technology. Blu Ray is now the standard for optical disc. Whether you play on a Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo product, I would think that game players should be technically saavy enough to want whatever the better technology is available for the platform they use.

As far as download only being the future...not for a long time. I have cable Internet, but it would still be faster to drive 200 miles to buy a game like MGS4 than it would be to download it. And add on the issues with having all your games on a hard drive, and the hassle of having to back up all that data on another hard drive (or have to download it all again if it crashes). Then you have the problem with lack of portability on digital only release. I can take one of my game discs to someone else's house and play it on their system. It is undesirable for digital only at this time with current technology.

[djfullshred]

lol, I checked this out just to see if there are any disagrees.

What part does one disagree with? DVD is not ancient technology, Game players don't like new technology, or that digitial only is not ready to completely replace discs right now?

If you disagree, come to the table with a response. Otherwise we just have to assume you are a fanboy that automatically disagrees to defend their little plastic box.

[XxCYONIDExX]

Well this writer's a little late to the party. This has been brought up years ago and now he's writing about it. Why don't you find something new about the 360 to whine about instead of the same couple of things.

[1800GETOWNED]

why don't developers with multiplat games cut scenes from the xbox version w/o affecting the ps3. that way xbox gets the reduced version of the game while the ps3 gets the full version. this will force xbox to us bluray on their next generation of consoles and would be one less thing devs. would complain.

[JTX]

That's exactly what they are doing with Lost Planet 2. 360 didn't have enough space so they had to cut scenes. PS3 version is getting the full game though.

[cc_star]

What a crock of crap, lame and incorrect article, Microsoft allow 6.8gig as the maximum a game can take up on the DVD9, as has been mentioned God Of War 2 on the PlayStation 2 contained more data than that

[Meryl]

DVD was already being pushed to it's limit before PS3 was released lol, you only have to look at games like GOW II, where they needed 2 disks lol, now 5 years later and x360 has managed to hold back a whole generation back by five years, it's a good thing on ps3 things are continuing to evolve, you only need to look at games like Heavy Rain, GOW III, and the best game Uncharted 2 to see evidence of this!!

[Hotel_Moscow]

i dont remember using 2 discs for gow2

[The Simple Truth]

M$ can't release a blu-ray 360 because they can't alienate their 40 million current users. That means they either have to make do with old gen hardware or launch the 720.

I'm thinking they'll go with the former.

[Hotel_Moscow]

or release a firmware that puts the rrod back causing all 360 fanboys to tun out and buy new 360s causing a rocket in 360 sales as well as giving them all a blu ray drive

[The real killer]

But also the Xenos CPU is to weak for Blu-ray heavy processor duties.

[Hotel_Moscow]

killer if thats true why do people keep saying xenon = cell

thats what i get for trying to believe those bots they say anything to try and make their console worth al that cash M$ got from the,m

[gtamike123]

360 owners say DVDs are not a problem like changing disks.

This is untrue think what GTA4 would be like changing disks for each island. GTA4 was missing so much maybe Rockstar had to cut things.

GTA San had so much things and only just fit on ps2 DVD.
I would like to know what Rockstar could do with 50GB.

[ASSASSYN 36o]

Good! I hope it becomes a serious issue. I am ready for a new xbox console!

[mac4u10]

I think Microsoft next console will be very similar to Onlive mark my words.

N4G user-name - Mac4u10

19/02/2010

[Bumpmapping]

I see alot of developer backlash this is a good thing for Sony.

[Claudinho69]

this will be the main reason the new xbox will come out when it comes out

[prodg52]

doesn't use bluray it will fail.

Edit: and for those who haven't realized it yet, Playstation Home is Sony's experiment in cloud gaming.

[DigitalAnalog]

When was the last time disc-swapping happened after PSX?????

OH, 360.... on dual-layer disc no less....

-End statement

[artsaber]

Microsoft does not want to look like the complete buffoons they are by rebuying their own technology piece back from Sony at a premium price. Microsoft had a chance to partner with Sony on Bluray and outright refused. Sony needed the MPEG4 codec to complete the Bluray package, Microsoft SOLD them this tech instead of working out a partner deal.

So if Microsoft buys licenses to use Bluray, they will be in turn, partially buying their own MPEG4 codec back from Sony at an inflated rate, rebundled as Bluray. This will go down as one of the worst business decisions in Microsoft's history. This will cost Microsoft millions if not billions in lost end-of-life tech income.

Sometimes you just have to come together to get that money, Microsoft failed to do this with Sony. Microsoft refuses to buy Bluray license out of ignorant pride, and continue to hold their own tech back because their core base is not smart enough to demand it either, despite the open outbursts from developers against archaic DVD.

[SephireX]

What's in this guy's pipe? This has always been an issue for the 360. It plagues the 360 and its the main reason why there are no towns in FF13. Due to FF13 being multiplatform, the player won't be able to go back to earlier parts in the game because the dvd9 can't hold all the data. Look at Lost Odyssey. It came out two years ago and needed four discs. This has always been an issue with the 360. Its not just now that we are seeing it. ME2 needs two discs. FF13 needs 3 discs and good old Lost Planet 2 needs to have dlc in order to accommodate for the lack of space. This is probably the 360's biggest problem, besides the abomination which is the rrod. You can't beat that. The 360 sold well and as a result most games are multiplatform The PS3 gets ports and games that are dumbed down in size to fit on dvd9 and all the while PS3 owners suffer the consequence's of Microsoft's poorly designed console. If there was no 360, we would see multiplatform games play a lot better on the PS3 than they do now but we'd also see much bigger and better games. The other problem is that the 360 doesn't require a mandatory install which can cause problems for developers. Seen every PS3 comes with a hd, this isn't a problem. Anyway, that's my anger expressed. Thanks for reading.

[AnotherGamerUser]

Jumped out and blay beyond.

[jalen247]

To be honest...this has been an issue for many years. Who knows how many devs gimped their visions of what their games would be because it wouldn't be feasible on the 360. And this in turn effects games on the PS3 which are multiplatform.

Think about it most devs won't say anything about it because of politics. But we all know its a big issue because a lot of devs have said so and common sense tells us that its a problem.

You know the saying..."more is better"...and "its better to be safe than sorry". Well, this must not have been on Microsoft's mind when they chose their disc drive medium.

[dtalon3]

Personally I don't care if I have to get up and switch a disk or two. I am not that lazy. I have Both a Ps3 and a 360. Just wanted to join the space capacity Melee battle here is a link to future dvd...OH and it beats 50 gig LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

(before yall start getting crazy on me I am just putting up a link to defend future 360 capability or 720 whatever it is...everyone knows ps3 beats the 360 in disk capacity currently)

[skottey]

Why is there a picture of the HD-DVD logo used for this story? The 360 games are on stanadrd dual layer DVDs. Not the now failed HD-DVD format. They make a reader to watch HD-DVD movies but it is not used for games. They should have built it in and used it but the format wasn't ffinalized when the 360 was released so it became an add on for movies. So why the logo picture now?

[mittwaffen]

When devs bitkh out the anus, MS will allow multi disks for free.

Problem Solved.

Or use this
DVD DS DL 17.08GB

Double sided, dual layer which totaling 17.08GB just flip the disk.

[shovelbum]

Well this article just blew the lid off of absolutely nothing. Who here didn't know that DVD space limitations were an issue on the 360?

[suntzu420]

For those of you who can't seem to do a little research about the actual size of PS3 games. I'm going to fill you in a little bit.

All sizes sourced from orlydb.com (scene releases of PS3 game rips, and no, you can't burn them play them, but the scene has been ripping PS3 games for some time now.

Little Big Planet - GOTY Edition - 7153.5MB
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 (Japanese edition) - 3955.0MB
Need for Speed Shift - 4139.0MB
The Bigs - 7061.0MB
Army of Two: 40th Day - 5017.6MB
Killzone 2 - 12535.0MB
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves - 19016.3MB
Infamous - 7176.0MB
Final Fantasy XIII - 38804.5MB
Fallout 3 - 7376.0MB

This is just a small portion of games that I wanted to show everyone. The reason for doing this is to show that not EVERY SINGLE GAME IS 25GB and that some games could be sold as digital downloads. Would it suck to try and download say FF XIII? Hell yeah it would, even on my connection and I avg. 1.5MB/s (yes, Megabytes, not megabits) on my cable. If Sony was able to provide the necessary capacity for the bandwidth, I believe DD would be a very easy solution. But I do understand the flip side of this argument in seeing that not everyone can afford broadband and not everyone has the same level of broadband access. Good day.

[Rageanitus]

Its a slow progression to use more memory.

Multiplatform games will use under 9 gbs but if you notice PS3 exclusive games are moving upwards. Developers are starting to use the memory.

[SlaughterMeister]

It's been an issue from the start.

[skyfire2261]

To the idiots saying the PSPgo failed because of DD get a clue. The PSPgo didn't do great is because it's the 4TH freakin iteration of the system. even if that thing had a UMD drive it still wouldn't have sold great. WE ALREADY HAVE PSP's (those that want one anyway and if you don't then get one :).

DD is the future, it's just not the IMMEDIATE future. Fibre to the home is only just starting in my country (canada) and it will be a few years before all homes have decent bandwidth along with no caps but thats another battle.

I for one say dump optical media altogether and just go with solid state memory cards. SDXC and MSXC both go to 2tb. suddenly that 500GB blu-ray ain't so great AND the cards are 100's of times faster for accessing data. So we got plenty of space and no hdd installs. plus all you "omg i need my physical" can still go to the store and buy games retail the old fashioned way.

[Hotel_Moscow]

digital download isnt helping anyone as i said what game store is going to sell a console where you dont have to buy ganes from there store so they can make money

[gtamike123]

People say blu ray is slow but, Uncharted 2 has no install and no loading times when playing also graphics are super high.

[djfullshred]

It is impressive how the only pauses are brief new chapter introductions in that game...for only a few seconds. They have overcome that old fashion video game clumsiness when switching between cinematics & player control. The line between is invisible in this game, and often times I would be staring at the screen waiting for the load screen realizing "oh, I don't need to wait for anything. I have control of the character, and there is no load screen"

[Jammaniaclord]

F**k em. MS are assholes anyway. They could have EASILY, used the HD-DVD format for 30 plus GB data, but they ignored it. You know they still could, as i imagine that there are warehouses full of unopened cases of blank HD-DVD discs. I really don't care, as i hate the 360, because it was built by MS in haste to beat the PS3 to market, and look at what that got them!!!!! I don't feel sorry for the people that bought them, got RROD, fixed it, got it again, RROD again, and kept paying to play, once the warranty was null. I owned the original XBOX, and it too was a POS. Barely read DVD's, gave me errors when i loaded a game, and fan issues. I also kept it in tip top shape, in a well ventilated area. Sad when my older game systems from the mid to late 80's are still working just fine when i fire them up. I have a front loading NES with NO BLINKING ISSUES!!!! So why should i give a s**t about MS's garbage, when they don't give a damn about the consumer, OR its developers?!

[Rageanitus]

we don't need anything more than dvd.... but hd-dvd is the future... shucks it died

DD is the future.... oh wait many countries around the world have limited bandwidth and it takes forever to download 20gbs of data.

blu-ray is not needed... we can shove all the data one multiple discs... but wait we dont have large hard drive space on our xbox so we cant do even installs properly. I guess we have to stick with multidiscs with redudant data on our +3 dvd 's .

In the end of the day MS should have put hd-dvd manditory in the xbox .. but that would have costed too much... they should have done it pc style install the game on a NON proprietory hard drive.

[foxxy]

Its worthless

[chriski333]

what do you mean becoming an issue its been a issue since 2007 mass effect 2 super great game but 2 discs come on man not cool

[massapeal]

i think Microsoft should OF use the HDDVD disks space for games they could still use HDDVD disk for games with a firmware update for the system to use the HDDVD disk.....

[ktchong]

I don't feel the need to get blu-ray for my PC.

[madpuppy]

I would Much rather have games released on blu-ray for the PC, one disc rather than having 2-5 dvd's as well as the BD discs are way more scratch resistant because of the hard coating tech developer by TDK.

[dirty_ripper]

http://videoonlinegames.sui...

[madpuppy]

You would have to be insane to piss your money away on 100% Digital Distribution, I will say it is ok for small games but, I would NEVER go for full 60.00 games being DD
you lose you right to resell it and you cannot archive them to play in the future. It is a fools game and a slippery slope.
Preferring DD over getting a blu-ray drive to try to justify Microsofts PIGHEADED refusal to support it kinda' comes off as...well...sad.

[horndog]

Most multi plats look better and perform better on 360 and arguebly even MS exclusives so why is bluray needed again?? For UC2?? For maybe one or two titles that actually make use of it?? I can understand why it's needed on the ps3 since it's main purpose is as a bluray player but by the looks of games like Reach, Alan and ME2 i think its doing fine.

[The real killer]

Because the most PS3 versions is ported from 360 and gimped.

[Morgue]

I think the horse is dead and has been dead for what? 2, 3, 4 years now? Do you think if HD DVD would've won Sony would have stopped manufacturing Blu-rays for use of their games? And do you think MS would have in turn used HD DVD for video games? I doubt it because wasn't HD DVD around for a year or so and MS was still releasing games on dvd? MS maybe never have intended to use that format for games but instead as a system seller because they were " ushering in the HD ERA " ( yeah with a Component or VGA cable ). But who am I too say.

[gollumlotrs]

for fun lets imagine a game that involves time traveling, say back to the future style, ok now we have the idea setup for such a game, imagine its multiplat and that the game is in no way cut in size, it equal in every way sound video and gameplay, one version on dvd for the 360 and the other version for ps3, but that there is a difference, one version is using 1 disc and the other is using 4 or 5 discs, ok well some may say this is still ok and fine and dont mind changing discs, well lets now say that the developers made this back to the future stype game in such a way that involved going back and forth through the same levels, altering time lets say, as you revisited you past avatars self and could alter said game levels by doing changes to the level as you past self goes though it, well now lets say over the 4 or 5 discs there are 5 levels on each totalling 20/25 levels in all, but this is the thing say the game requires you to hop back and forth from level 1 to 20, 20 to 2 to 7 and so on every 30mins or hour of gameplay, but the bluray version of said game just has you travel through the levels with no such disc changing back and forth, now what it the game itself was a total run through of 10 to 15 hours, you could be looking at something like 30 time to change a disc for only playing a game once,

and the point of this is not the actual game itself because it does not exist per say, but that the very reason something of such an example doesnt exist is purely because on the 360 such a game would be hell to play, but on the ps3 would be a simple pop the disc in and play the game out to the end, and have a laugh along the way seeing you past self messing up and stuff, so yes the 360 and dvd is holding back not only blu ray but the ps3 and developers ideas, as they all have to stay within what the others limits are, in order to maximize money coming in.

so blu ray wins and dvd is old tech, and the quicker its gone the better, I think its over come 2011/12 for dvd once xbox pulls its dxxk out of its own ass.

[Wile]

FUDZILLA...I understand the website's name now.

[PLAYstar]

bu. bu.. but.. I thought the Xbox360 got HD-DVD? Oh wait, it FAILED!!!

[mittwaffen]

This sounds like the N64 - PS1 Days

PS1's had CD's 700 MB's of data.
N64 had a cartridge limited to 32MB (I might be a bit off) of data.

But in the end what system had better games? N64, and even looked better aswell being very limited on storage.

I'm sure xbox will thrive regardless of DVD. As will the PS3

[Absolut_Turkey]

N64 had the better games than the PS1? What the heck are you talking about?! Maybe if you were a kid back then, you might have thought N64's games were better. N64 was fun and all, but it was designed for the more casual and often times younger gamer just like the Wii is today. The Playstation has always been geared toward the more mature and sophisticated gamer. And if you honestly believe that hardcore gamers today don't care about things like hardware limitations potentially ruining games then you're being naive. The truth is gamers are now beginning to see just how dated and inferior Xbox's tech is when compared to the PS3, and if you don't believe that's affecting sales, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to sales numbers from the last year or so. In conclusion: Resistance is futile, PS3 FTW!

[mittwaffen]

FANBOY ^

Sorry tons of gaming websites constantly agree, N64 had some of the best games and still does by todays standards.

Just because Sony is on it doesn't mean everything else sucks, the more i read N4G the more I hate how narrow minded people can be.

You missed the point though, it was suppose to show you that storage doesn't equal better gameplay.

Where did we get this idea from? Devs cutting content? This isnt anything new in the industry.

[Xi]

people claim that the consoles hold back the pc, but in reality the consoles also help create more advanced, and optimized code that's utilized on the pc also. Developers will be forced to fine new ways to compress and store data, and that's always going to be beneficial.

[AngryTypingGuy]

At this point, MS should start letting developers make games that require the user to have a HDD. Just put a highly visible warning on the package and a big yellow sticker over the cellophane so people know. 360 users who don't have a HDD are most likely just casual users anyway.

[Absolut_Turkey]

The Xbox 360 is technologically inferior to the Playstation 3! That doesn't mean you can't enjoy gaming on an Xbox, but please understand that it is inferior to the PS3 from a technological standpoint. And that is a fact.

[AngryTypingGuy]

Well the 360 does have its advantages, like lesser load times for most games and better anti-aliasing. But from a storage standpoint, of course Blu Ray is better than DVD 9.

[jlemdon]

you xbots for not supporting your own system, you guys could've easily supported the HD-DVD like I did just in case the DVD storage starts becoming a problem. you already know MS had that in mind when they were releasing HD-DVD they just didn't want to flat out say it!!! Let's be real, at the time of HD-DVD arriving what games needed it??? but that was there way of future proofing for games like LO,FFXIII, and Rage. smh at you so called xbox supporter's!!! :-(

(drops the mic and leave)

[mittwaffen]

It failed like many other format wars before it. Dont be so god damn hostile, smoke a blunt and chill.

PS3, Xbox whatever you bought it doesnt matter. Why do people try to hammer points to make the other regret buying his/her system?

When I play my Xbox I miss some things about ps3, and when im on my PS3 vice versa. Crap doesn't matter, i'd be happy with either one.