BBFC comment on Manhunt 2 ban

Torch - 924 days 22 hours ago

True.

Sales will indeed be hampered by the omission of the UK market, but sales may very well skyrocket in any other market where the game is not banned specifically as a result (despite - and mostly due to - it's immoral reputation.)

Speaking at least for myself, this announcement has definitely gotten me curious to see what all the fuss is about. I'm now actually considering giving it a go, whereas I would've otherwise pretty much ignored the game.

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Azurite - 924 days 21 hours ago

Don't mention the war.

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ItsDubC - 924 days 20 hours ago

So you don't play FPSs?

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emptiness - 924 days 19 hours ago

nothing that glorifies gore and grusome premeditated murder against other human beings like manhunt 2 does...

halo was really fun, resistance is pretty cool, gears of war was a bit grusome with the chainsaw but at least it was toward a subterranean alien race...there's a difference.

i didn't play manhunt, i won't play manhunt 2...and for the same reasons i didn't play postal or postal 2...

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ItsDubC - 924 days 19 hours ago

You're right, there is a difference. The difference is that those games DOWNPLAY the seriousness and consequences of murder, whereas Manhunt forces you to think it through. Is it better to murder everything in sight like it's no big deal, or to strategize every killing?

I don't think that just because a game has you murdering things that aren't human makes it OK when the game itself conveys a high level of realism.

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emptiness - 924 days 19 hours ago

your looking at a very narrow facet of violence in media and therefore your argument doesn't encompass the actual influence this type of video game has on the human psyche.

the more involved and immersive a game is, the more influential the subject matter on the gamer. this is the argument and a serious one at that. to persude the gamers psyche into a murderous and grotesque view of reality will have serious consequences on the gamer (especially young ones as they are the most influential). IMO violence is not entertainment but if you think it that it's better to PREMEDITATE a murder then to just randomly assult or kill, you're wrong, and we have the law to prove that for you. violence will always be a facet of humanity because of people who cannot control their emotions or actions but it is our job as a growing society and culture to combat these issues and suppress acts of violence and media that portray such violence as IT IS INFLUENTIAL and DESTRUCTIVE to the human psyche.

update1: yes i'm out of bubbles :P

my suggestion is that Manhunt 2 for the Wii is seriously more immersive than say Manhunt 2 for the PS2 or whatever other console it comes out on. pushing buttons to act out brutality is less immersive and influential than acting out a "stabbing", "sawing", or otherwise murderous motion to kill another humanoid. releasing a game that encourages the player to think maliciously and brutally when performing an action is bad enough. now the wii lets the player act out a related gesture as well as thinking in this way. putting the two together will likely cause serious mental and emotional reprocussions for those who are not mature enough mentally (not physically, just because someone is 24 doesn't mean they are mature enough to understand the context and seriousness of the subject) to handle the subject matter.

i think Manhunt 2 should be pigeonholed because it is a shining example of what types of games need to be regulated as AO. it is also a game from the contraversial (IMO irresponsible) R* and a highly anticipated sequel that glorifies the fact that the player is able to act out brutal and grotesque forms of murder. i agree, murder is murder but glorifying and glamorizing it as is done in Manhunt 2 is by far worse than unloading a clip into a Nazi with a Thompson. IMO gore and grotesque violence should not be glorified in a "game". even the story is grotesque. a bunch of twisted individuals get together to hunt another human? although a sick and disturbing story, it's the graphical (visual) and contextual nature of this game that is the problem.

this is all my opinion of course...
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update2: yea, i see your point that the ultimate action is killing what ever the means but i disagree. it is documented that performing actions and gestures within the context of a situation physically changes the structure in areas of the brain. in sports, this is called practice. just by going through the motions causes a serious influential impact upon the brain. i'm not saying that whoever plays this game will all of a sudden go out and reenact the game in real life. i'm saying that over time, it is much worse to act out the gestures with the Wiimote than to just smash a few buttons.

additionally, if you have ever been around kids, have a few, or know what they are like, i think you would agree that they WILL replicate their actions from the video game in real life on their siblings or parents for that matter. hell, i have a friend or two that do the same thing and they are both older than 24.

indeed, as you have similarily stated, the motive behind the killing does not justify the killing. i do agree that murder is murder but i think we are stuck on disagreeing that the means of the act makes it worse or less worse. because when it comes to filling a Nazi with lead or striking a guard in the face with an axe coupled with a painfully glamorous and grotesque visual, i think it is less influential if it's filling a Nazi with lead.

in the end, it really depends on the mental/emotional maturity of the individual. obviously, these genres of games should not be marketed to children. why? because children are highly influential and we don't want to raise our kids to think it's "ok" to be violent or think murder is "fun" or just a game. but the problem is that there are so many so called ADULTS out there who are NOT mature enough for these games and yet they still think they are, play them, and end up hurting others (albeit not because of the game alone, they are also mentally unstable and everything influences the decisions they make).

it is our responsibility as consumers, parents, developers, marketers, etc. to ensure that material intended for certain audiences gets to that audience and no other. it is not just the parents responsibility, it's EVERYONES responsibility. again that's just what i think...
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update 3: i agree with your position on the rating systems and i think that this is really what all the contraversy boils down to.

i cannot speak for the UK as i am a US resident but the rating system implemented here in the US is a joke. it is my experience that retailers and parents do not pay attention to the ratings and minors get the game they want anyway. not only is *that* a joke but the system itself is severely flawed.

how does one rate a video game based on a few excerpts from the game? seriously, come on. the game should be played through in its entirety to be adequately rated.

not only that but user modifications of the game SHOULD NOT WARRENT a change of rating years after the game has already been released. mods should definately be a parental censorship and not a developer censorship. if a 10 year old boy is online downloadingthe Hot Coffee mod for San Andreas, then the parents are at fault, not the developer.

thirdly, although i didn't count the other 2, the game rating system needs to be taken seriously. by parents, developers, marketers, retailers, and kids. this lack of responsibility is running rampant on everyones part. we all need to step up and make the system work because WE ARE THE SYSTEM.

i will refrain from saying that violence is innate but it is a serious subject especially when it is influential minds that are being subjected to it. i think what makes this game a threat is the way the player is rewarded for the level of brutality inflicted on the victim. the Wii enhances this brutality through motion controls which simulate the act of violence in the game as a real physical action. this is dangerous territory, especially when given to influential minds. ultimately, we have a FREE MARKET and the game should not be banned per se but my suggestion is to give this game a AO rating, especially for the Wii, and make it very difficult for children to get ahold of it...oh and our rating system NEEDS A SERIOUS OVERHAUL.

i think i'm done for the day, please take the last word...

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ItsDubC - 924 days 18 hours ago

I know you've exhausted your bubbles but I'd like to continue this conversation. Perhaps we can just edit these two comments and append our replies?

Without a doubt, a more immersive game will have a greater affect on the individual playing the game. But are you suggesting that games other than Manhunt are not immersive? All of these games convey violence in a way that could influence the actions of those that play them.

I did not suggest that premeditated murder was better or worse, I was simply stating that regardless of context, it still boils down to murder. And in that sense, why should Manhunt 2 be pigeonholed while other violent games fly by under the radar? Why is it OK for a game to be released in which the primay objective is to run around killing everything in sight, while a game such as Manhunt catches all the flak?

Update 1:

While I agree that Manhunt 2 for the Wii is more immersive than Manhunt 2 on the PS2 or PSP, I think all versions should get the same treatment because the premise is the same. Whether the gamer is acting it out or pressing a button, that gamer's intent is still to kill another character. Acting it out is not any more of a training tool than seeing how it's done onscreen, which will be common across all versions.

Rather, I think much of the controversy has to do w/ many ppls' perception that the Wii is a console targetted toward children. It is not, but it is more "child-friendly" than either the 360 or PS3. Parents can take an active role by properly setting the parental controls in the WIi's menu.

I still feel that the premeditated murder found in Manhunt is just as bad as the unloading-a-clip-into-a-Nazi type that is much more common. If I remember correctly, the story surrounding Manhunt 2 is one of survival and not just killing for the sake of it. While this does not make the game any less gruesome, it does provide reasoning for the actions that is not found in other violent games such as Unreal Tournament.

I definitely understand your concern, but my view that murder is murder no matter how it's done or portrayed makes me wonder why so many other games or movies didn't or aren't getting the same attention as Manhunt 2 for the Wii.

Update 2:

You bring up a good point regarding muscle memory and that acting out the gestures will make the gamer more fluent in those actions. And I agree that application of those gestures really boils down to mental maturity, as kids will inevitably reproduce them in play.

But this is only a concern if the mentally immature get access to the game in the first place and in which case, a similar concern should be put in place for movies such as Hostel and Saw as well as other violent games that society and govt has deemed acceptable. As long as a trustworthy and effective rating system is in place, I don't think Manhunt 2, or any particular game, movie, or album for that matter, should get special treatment. To me, the UK banning Manhunt 2 for the Wii is simply an admission that their rating system is insufficient.

My opinion is that these rating systems are in place to help parents make responsible choices about what media their children will be exposed to. If a rating system is selective of what media it chooses to rate, then it takes the decision power away from parents for itself.

You have managed to convince me that Manhunt 2 for the Wii poses a greater threat to society than other versions of Manhunt 2, but I'm still not sure that this threat justifies all of the extra attention it's getting. The reality is that it does not matter what I think, govt will be govt and Manhunt 2 will likely not see a sequel if retail outlets cannot make the game easily-accessible to those who want it.

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nfekted - 924 days 20 hours ago

horribly done. I hope those who want to play this game find a way to play it. Ladies and gentlemen, they should be mowing down the stores who sell these games to the kids, and not dictating what adults should or shouldn't play. Imo, this is sad.

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emptiness - 924 days 19 hours ago

i'm guessing the US will do a similar tactic to ban this game...you might have to buy it from Uganda...

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