My Kickstarter Nightmare: Soul Saga Edition

UPDATE: created a thread on NeoGAF earlier this evening it's gotten quite a few responses, both sides of the fence, but still quite a civil discussion going on: http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

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So today I was banned from the Soul Saga (DisasterCake) forum ; http://forums.disastercake....

This came as a surprise since I'm generally a quiet and fair member. I'm a moderator for a few sites, a respected member on countless others, and yet today sees me banned for the first time in as long as I can remember.

Why was I banned? Well it all started when Mike Gale launched a Kickstarter campaign called "Soul Saga: Episode 1". Based on the original KS campaign, the art was very "chibi", similar to Final Fantasy 3 and 4 on the PSP, Bravely Default on the 3DS, etc. This IMMEDIATELY drew me in as I loved those first two games and cannot wait to play Bravely Default. The gameplay in Soul Saga was going to be similar to FFX and other JRPG's according to the campaign page;

https://www.kickstarter.com...

If you compare the art and gameplay, to what was recently posted in the Developer Diaries on the forum (and then restricted to members who would be "respectful" -- his words --), it sounds like things are changing considerably. Here's a comparison of the original art (during the KS campaign) and the two redesigns (AFTER the campaign closed);

http://i.imgur.com/NFqL3UE....

Couple these drastic art style changes with recent posts from Mike Gale (campaign creator, man behind DisasterCake) stating "major" changes were coming and that he was going to need to reduce the scope of the project, and it's only natural some people would begin to question what they backed/invested in.

And that brings me to my current issue. As an investor in this project, I outlined, constructively (see below), my issues with the changes up to this point. I clearly stated that;

-Art changed (see: http://i.imgur.com/NFqL3UE.... "chibi" style REALLY sold me, was disappointed to see that change AFTER the campaign ended.
-Mike (creator) keeps going through artists like they're water...very concerning.
-Game appears to be turning into a Final Fantasy 7 clone, which we have plenty of, definitely NOT why I backed this project.
-About 2-3 days ago Mike posted on the Dev Diaries section (when it was still public) that after re-evaluating things, he was going to have to make some "MAJOR" changes and go down a "different path" and "reduce the scope" of the project...uh oh.

When I brought up my concerns (in an constructive but HONEST way) about all of these changes on the forum, Mike immediately attacked me and said I wasn't being respectful, that "threatening" to request a refund only hurts others who supported the project, that if I want "sunshine and roses" I should avoid the developer diaries...

Well, after seeing that this morning I immediately posted, requesting a refund. I was still trying to remain calm and collected in my posts and advised him that locking the dev diaries to "only respectful members" was essentially running and hiding what he was doing, AND terrible business sense.

Then I was banned.

TL;DR - Mike is changing A LOT of what originally made the project seeming appealing, I expressed my concern but said I would "patiently wait to see what the new path was", and he banned me. Take from this what you want, but he still hasn't replied to my refund request (e-mail and Twitter).

Perhaps I'm over-reacting, but seeing as how I backed this project and have now been banned from the ONLY source of updates...and still no reply to my refund request, this has turned into quite the nightmare. Hopefully others don't have to go through this mess.

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Mike Gale, if you read this, I'd really like to discuss my refund request so we can get this mess behind us.

[DragonKnight]

Isn't there a way for you to go through Kickstarter to force the refund if he doesn't comply?

[SilentNegotiator]

The wording has changed since the last I read the FAQ, but Kickstarter still ultimately has the policy of "Hey, don't look at me!" in situations where starters make changes, fail to deliver, etc.

"Who is responsible for completing a project as promised? It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project...Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it"
--Kickstarter.com FAQ

[SilentNegotiator]

And just to show how little Kickstarter cares if the project goes smoothly, here's their policy if the project fails entirely after being funded:

"If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers"
--Kickstarter.com FAQ

In other words, anyone can make a Kickstarter, not follow through with any of their promises, and ultimately walk away with a little "LOL, spent it all on rent, sry" post. It's heaven for egotists (that feel they should just do whatever with the project that others funded) and scam artists.

[SynGamer]

As SilentNegortiator posted below...not really. Mike Gale (apparently) refuses to reply to my e-mail or requests on Twitter. Considering my final post (before it was deleted and I was banned) was requesting a refund after he said he was locking down the dev diaries section...I'm not holding my breathe that he'll issue a refund.

At this point, I can only hope he pulls his head out of his ***. Or other media sites pick up on this and run with the story. We'll see.

[Blacklash93]

Hmm... have you tried contacting Kickstarter themselves about the issue? I'd like to think they'd force the matter for your refund if you explain your grievance.

[annus]

Kickstarter is NOT buying a product, it is INVESTING in a product. Why would they refund it simply because he doesn't like the direction it's going? You don't get a refund when the organisation you invest in goes a direction you don't like, and it is no different here.

[Blacklash93]

Obviously it isn't buying a product. I don't know why you're even bringing that up.

I was just speculating that they might, as a platform, have policies that protect against significant deviations from project promises, scams, ect. But as SilentNegotiator informs, Kickstarter is pretty much just like any other business investment in the respect that all responsiblity goes to the developer once the money is submitted. No matter how they handle the money or alter the vision they presented to investors.

[SynGamer]

I'm not so much buying a product, as I am investing in one. And investors have at least *some* rights, though not many. If he had closed up shop and took the $200k and ran, then that would have been a complete loss. But he hasn't (so far...), instead if singled me out, created a new usergroup on the forum for people who only give him praise, and then banned me after I requested a refund.

le sigh :)

[SilentNegotiator]

'tis the risk of backing.

Allow me show you the warning signs you may have missed:
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1) He's developing a game with very few people; he even words it as though he's working solo, on the kickstarter page (he's not, but it's concerning that he views it that way). "Disastercake is one normal guy with one large dream: to make games he's passionate about. This guy's name is Mike Gale... and that's me!"
2) He promises his little indie project on a large number of platforms for something with a $200K budget.
3) Never back an RPG or MMO...they will usually get cut down to meet budget, or else fail entirely. Especially when it's a "one" person development team.
4) The demo was...well, not much happened in the video demo.
5) He grew up on a pony farm and lives in Seattle. The only non-hipster in Seattle is Kelsey Grammer pretending to be in Seattle.

[SynGamer]

*sigh*

You're right, but at the time of backing, it seemed like a great little game that had a lot of potential. Before it quickly divebombed into this mess, I was a full supporter, creating threads on various forums I frequent and trying to help build interest.

Lesson learned.

[SilentNegotiator]

We all live and learn. Kickstarter is one heck of a mixed bag. The big take away here is that it's best to back projects with *very* realistic goals and that have already shown a significant amount of pre-Kickstarter progress.

[Crazyglues]

Dear SynGamer,

I am going to assume you wrote this blog to get our feedback and see what others think, so let me be the first to give you a real opinion from someone just looking at this with no bias...

First let me just say, I think you went about this in a completely wrong way -and here's why..

(and don't get me wrong I see your point and your frustration, trust me I do) ..Battlefield 4 has let me down so bad on PS4 it breaks my heart - so trust me I know how upsetting it can be when you invest in something that let's you down big-time.

--now we may not be the same type of gamer but I feel this applies here too--

you see your problem is you took the project personally - As you have the right too - But Dude, your a backer not an investor... (it really is a big difference)

-and here is where you went wrong.

Sometimes people tend to only see their side of an argument - But to really be fair it's important to look at the big picture. Not just one side.

This dude is a one man army and he has no real development team, and imagine the pressure he is under, not to mention personal life - yes this is not a business, this is a person.

So imagine you just worked all day and night trying to design a new look (good or bad) and after hours and hours of work you present it to people, and some people like it but one guys says, "oh what is this, I just throw up a little in my mouth, is this really the best you can do?" -Ouch! - I want my money back!

- Now how exactly is he suppose to take that -

Lets just look at something you could have said that would have been a lot more helpful to both of you.

"You know, I'm backing you 100 percent, and it's all your vision - to me it's looking a little like final fantasy too much, I just hope were not getting too far away from your original vision because I think it's genius, I think you should believe in your original vision -trust your self- because it was one of the things that got me to back the project, trust your vision. I know it's got to be hard designing a game all by your self but you have something amazing here, I love the original vision and I think it's genius for your game, we don't want to be considered a clone of final fantasy. It looks to me like your getting nervous that you might fail if you don't try to be like the other guys, don't do that, as a gamer I can tell you that's how most games fail, stay with your vision and what you fell in-love with when you started, and if you can't see it anymore because of the pressure, trust your backers for help, we are indeed the closest thing to your core audience. I loved the original and I think we had something really unique. I don't think you should abandon it, maybe take a vote on it. old vs new.

So playa, I feel your pain but you really don't have a leg to stand on, you have to eat this one.. It's kind of what being a backer is, you stand in the back and support. - you really don't get to criticize the vision, he is still making the game and didn't fail on that promise, he just changed the vision and he has every right to do so..

-And as you know criticizing the main developer is never going to end well, so choose your words carefully.

-Chuck this one up to - Lesson Learned- a Backer just get's to back the project in hopes that this just actually get's made -

-An investor gets to criticize and ask for his money back when the project changes and goes in a completely different direction.

Sadly - you my friend are a backer -as Kickstater is all about backing projects in-order to help them get made.

[SynGamer]

I'll be honest, I skimmed your post...it's 6:22 AM :P BUT, i get the points you are making. The problem is, without access to my forum account (and the posts Mike Gale delete), it's hard to show or give proof that I actually was constructive. I mean, I've been 99% on his side up until this week.

I was right there with others providing constructive criticism, hence why we got the Elise character redesigned 2 or 3 times. It wasn't just "one guy" (me), it was a number of people posting.

More importantly, in this business (and any business really), if you can't handle constructive criticism, it's going to be a long road ahead. I and others gave our opinions, but in the end, I was one of the first to point out my disappointment with the changes that have happened and the ones he has planned.

Please understand that in one of his most recent developer diaries, he flatout said that scope was going to be reduced and things were going to be cut. BUT, he said he needed a few weeks to plan out this "new path" before publicly stating what it was. He also flatout said that people were probably not going to like what had to be cut.

^^^--this doesn't bode well, hence why I commented on the changes and deviations from the original campaign, and my overall disappointment. BUT BUT BUT, I'm an understanding guy and it told him simply; I'll patiently wait for this "new path", but worst case, I may have to ask for a refund".

Slightly paraphrased but definitely close to what I said. My tone was honest and to the point. Never attacking, simply providing my take on this situation.

So for him to lock down the dev diaries, and then start whining that people aren't respectful...well, it's quite childish and rather sad, really.

At this point, I just want my money back and I want others to perhaps be a bit more cautious when backing projects...

[Crazyglues]

SynGamer I feel your pain...

I understand everything you said, except for one thing, why do you feel you should get your money back.. that's what I don't get.

-And I'm no rocket scientist so I could be wrong but I don't think he broke any of the conditions of the funding, yes he was not very nice and he failed to stay objective and take criticism..

-But that does not mean the game is not still coming, other then being a butt-head did he break any of the backer agreement-? I don't think he did, and sadly I don't think you will get your money back.

-But I will keep my fingers crossed for you player... hopefully he will do the right thing and be a good sport / But seeing how hard it is to get a game like this funded I seriously doubt that will happen.

Anyway good luck playa, I know it must suck to have this happen but I'll hope for a good outcome for you, keep us posted on what ends up happening... (might help others with what exactly is your rights when something like this happens)

[SynGamer]

I feel I should get my money back because the creator has handled this very poorly. By locking me out of the forums, the ONLY place to follow progress on the game, he's cut me off completely. Not only that, but before I was banned, I was beginning to feel quite threatened by his tone and comments. He basically said that I have to either give praise, or shut up, hence why he locked the dev diaries.

It's one thing to change things about the project AFTER the campaign closed, it's another to lash out at a backer and then block them completely from following the progress.

[cocadaking]

These changes in art style were planned since the beggining of the kickstarter campaign, man, it's weird to complain about that now. Actually that's why I put my money in it since I'm not a big fan of chibi style.
You being banned seems too drastic though.

[Cat]

Frustrating, I'm sure, and I feel for ya and your disappointment.

I can't make the blanket statement that "it's not in the nature of Kickstarter projects to offer refunds", because I did once receive a refund (Elevation Dock), but I do think a refund is a rare occurrence and certainly not an obligation. It may be an opportunity to create goodwill, but if it's not practical for the outcome of the project then that's that. As others mentioned above, Kickstarter is a speculative investment that does not guarantee a product or outcome.

On the topic of consumer goodwill, I think it could be argued the opportunity was there in the forum dialogue, but something else I like about the independent nature of these projects is that their creators can handle things in a very free market way. In this case, he decided you were...expendable? I'm not saying that's the right way, it's probably not the way I'd handle the situation, but I can't get past the fact that I like that the content creators can do this without some higher up forcing a lukewarm and backhanded apologetic interaction.

But...some creative types aren't great at business. Maybe that's the case here, maybe not.

I'd give it a little cooling off period, then keep it classy and start with asking to be readmitted to the forums as a backer. Read only access might be the middle ground?

For $15, a relatively modest investment, hopefully the project is completed and you'll get your code - maybe you'll enjoy the game in the end.

[thorstein]

I will tell you that I back some Kickstarter campaigns and not others. Perhaps this could be a great topic for a blog post.

Why some and not others? No matter how promising?

Recognition. I backed Shadowrun Returns because I knew the people making it worked on the SNES and Genesis versions of the games. They also had their own studio and had released games already. It was a safe bet that the game would come out and be of a good quality. They promoted Shadowrun Online and I backed that as well.

I backed Star Citizen. I would not have if Chris Roberts name was not attached to it (or some other notable developer.)

I heard of WarZ and was willing to give it a look, but I never heard of these nutjobs and realized their was no connection to DayZ. So I didn't back them.

It is important to do your homework on a Kickstarter campaign before hitting that Support button.

I love what Kickstarter has done to this industry (removed the slimy middle men(and women)).

[SynGamer]

I've backed a few projects and completely agree that Kickstarter is a great opportunity. That said, this has easily been the worst KS experience I've had. Thankfully others are seeing just how messed up this project has been run: http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

[SilentNegotiator]

Wait a minute...the guy TRAVELED TO JAPAN to seek out artists? I'm rolling here! f***ing LOL

This guy will be out of money in no time.