Gamers and Backward Compatibility: A Lack of Reasoning

Ok, so before I even begin this I need to take some time to get something out. I probably will hardly ever use the ps4’s ability to play ps2 games. Unlike most, I have a pretty big library of ps2 games and I cannot see myself buying over any of those games just to play in HD with trophy support. I was looking forward to being able to pop my currently owned discs into my ps4 and have the HD version downloaded to my ps4 for free so I could re-live some of my best gaming memories. That was MY expectations and seeing that that is not what we are getting, this feature is not very useful to ME. Now with that being said, let’s get down to the meat and potatoes of this thing.

A lot (not all) of the people complaining about this feature at the moment are either totally missing the point of it or are the ones involved in brand name assassination. And I must admit, even I got caught up in this war on BC. You see, the problem stems when you approach this issue with the incorrect mind-set in the first place and can be quickly rectified with one simple realization, this is not backward compatibility. What is backward compatibility you may ask? Well as Wikipedia puts it “In telecommunications and computing, a product or technology is backward compatible (BC)[1] or downward compatible if it can work with input generated by or meant to an older product or technology such as a legacy system. If products designed for the new standard can receive, read, view or play older standards or formats, then the product is said to be backward-compatible”. Or to state it simply, BC is the ability to play old medium on new hardware. An important thing to notice is that BC does not dictate an upgrade of services, features or design of the older medium in order for it to be considered backward compatible.

Why is this important? The answer is simple. Gaming is the only activity where its users expect to be given this ability for free. In no other area is this questioned or challenged. Let’s say you bought the best of ABBA album when it first released on cassette tape in 1975, can you go back to the record company that released that album, show them your cassette tape WITH proof of purchase and demand the new CD version with upgraded audio for free? They would probably hit you with a pie in the face before they threw you out. What about if you bought star wars on VHS in 1983, can you now go to Walt Disney with your VHS copy and demand the digitally enhanced bluray version for free? Let’s take this even further. What if you started a network+ course in 2013 and did not complete it, you then decided to do it again in 2015, can you take your old network+ course books to the publisher and demand the new books for free? It’s even worse with textbooks because they usually only change a couple of lines of text between releases. The answer to all those questions is NO. Yet when it comes to gaming this is considered a right.

The next problem stems from people equating this with PSNow, which is somewhat similar and is also very misunderstood. People often make the comment when talking about these two topics “why the hell are they charging me to play games I already own?” The answer is simple, like psnow the ability to play ps2 games on your ps4 is so that you can play games you DO NOT own (this is why what sony is doing is not considered BC). The way some people write on the internet you would swear that they own the entire ps library of games. The average gamer does not even own one sixteenth of a consoles entire library. Who exactly is forcing you to purchase games you already own? And if you don’t own a game and want to play it chances are you’re not gonna run out and buy the old version just to get it upgraded, you’ll buy the upgraded version from the get-go.

Now the argument would be that it’s not costing them anything to upgrade the game to 1080p so we shouldn’t have to pay them for that but then my question would be if it doesn’t require anything to do that why can we not do it now? Work by programmers and/or developers must be done, whether it be on the system firmware or the game itself in order for the system to read the older format and add features such as trophy support upgraded resolutions and other things not possible with older games. These things don’t happen by magic. Emulators don’t just drop out of the sky and into your system.

The thing is I know many people will come here and accuse me of making excuses for sony and even though I would partially admit to that it doesn’t make anything I stated any less true. Also, I would be lying if I said that I didn’t feel annoyed about this whole having to purchase games you already own if you want to play them with additional features. I would have preferred if this was for free but it doesn’t change the fact that I cannot allow my wants and desires to cloud my sense of reasoning. The moment you do you become no different that the anita sarkeesians of the world.

It’s great that we had BC (in its most basic form) in the old days of the ps2 and early ps3’s. And it’s great that a company like Microsoft is doing it now with upgraded resolutions for free (I really commend them for that), but the reality is in no way are we entitled to this. We do not have a right to it. It is a feature that is great to have and should be applauded but as gamers we also need to get out of this sense of entitlement we seem to have. The one area however I will admit to having serious issues with is the $15 price per game. Come on sony, you can do better than that.

[BillytheBarbarian]

I think the thing I'm happy about is that I dumped a lot of money into Xbla and that MS wasn't initially having them transfer over to X1 was stupid and greedy. Sell us the same games twice. Now they are allowing me to access to some, and more down the road. It should have been there in the first place. It was another reason to keep another piece of hardware hooked up to the tv and a reason so many are waiting to buy in to next generation.

I still have my Sega consoles but I love having Streets of Rage Vintage collection on my X1. If you love a series enough you'll buy an upgrade or update.

[donthate]

To be fair, MS didn't know if they could make BC possible. Phil Spencer really pushed for it, and Xbox team did it.

More amazingly is MS willingness to give it away for free. MS could have came out with some BS reasoning about licensing to charge you a small fee or add a few features (like Sony), but they didn't. They gave it all away free!

Got to give props where it is due.

[Picnic]

It was Microsoft's 'get back in gamers good books' move.

Just like free online on PS3 was Sony's.

I think Sony's was a little more generous even if it didn't occur this gen. But,then, GDDR5 was this gen's 'generosity' from Sony. They'd can't afford to give up their PSNow cash cow. And why should they if people choose to disrespectfully get rid of their PS2/PS3, if they ever owned one. It's not like PS4 is desperate for sales. Although I like any console maker best when they're hungry for sales so I hope for the NX to shake up Sony's apple cart.

[donthate]

Picnic:

I'm not sure how Sony was generous with PS3? They gave away PSN, mostly because charging for it would be outrageous considering it took Sony until this generation to even be close to XBL. The real gift from Sony was PS+ in my opinion, but back then the game selection was extremely poor and the PSN hack, well....

Also, GDDR5 isn't a generosity at all. It was a design decision based on a gamble that panned out. Would you have said the same if GDDR5 modules would cause the PS4 to have 4GB of RAM?

It was basically pure luck 8GB GDDR5 modules were available within a reasonable price range.

Personally, I think MS has been extremely generous this generation thanks to Phil Spencer and new Xbox team.

[uth11]

PS Now with the new $99/yr pricing is an amazing value. It's about $8 a month for access to 400-some games and growing. I've been using my 7 day trial to see if I want to subscribe.

Yet gamers make it sound like PS Now is a total rip off, but yet EA access at $5/month for 14 games (and growing) is an awesome deal.

[donthate]

EA Access has recent games for current generation, whereas PS Now has 400 old games that can be had for $2 at GameStop. On top of that, owning the game gives you a far better experience than the laggy experience with encoding artifact game play.

Keep in mind that GameFly also has thousand of games for $9/month including the latest releases!

There are things Sony does right with Playstation, but PS Now isn't one of them. It was a total rip off from the start, and Sony has just been dropping the price ever since.

[Christopher]

If you want PS Now, that's fine. But, personally, I'm not paying extra to stream games I already own.

PS Now being a rip off is dependent on what it provides to the individual, so opinion on it varies from people like me who own all those games already and have the hardware to those who never owned a PS3.

[johndoe11211]

That's the thing, PSNow is not a ripoff regardless of who you are. If you don't own the games then it's an opportunity for you to play them. If you already own the games then you have no need to rent them. If someone no longer owns a ps3 to play the games then chances are they have already moved on to current gen and the thing is who's gonna sell their system and keep the games? If someone sold their system they would have also sold their games.

[Pogmathoin]

Good lord, terrible comparisons.... My new bluray player does not have a vhs cassette player.... But my console can play bluray, dvd, and cd...... Let me think.... PS2 games come on... Ummmm no, not betamax..... Ummm not floppy disk... Oh yeah..... Dvd....... It just needs to know you have the physical disc..... The same way your PS4 or X1 knows when you want to play your installed game..... Also, PSnow is not good value.... You have that and Ps2 BC..... Both charging...... Its called clutching at straws..... A pig with lipstick is still a pig.......

[Z501]

"What about if you bought star wars on VHS in 1983, can you now go to Walt Disney with your VHS copy and demand the digitally enhanced bluray version for free?"

THIS times 1000.

*From a similar blog comment section.

MrBeatdown - "Your convenience isn't Sony's problem, and was never promised to you when buying your first copy of the game or a PS4.

Do you do this to every company? Planning to demand free Blu-Ray, DVD, and digital copies of Star Wars just because you have it on VHS?"

SPOT ON! It's called entitlement.

If I have a physical copy of ____. Why would I buy ____ again?

"The answer is simple, like psnow the ability to play ps2 games on your ps4 is so that you can play games you DO NOT own"

Bingo! Someone gets it.

*inb4 "But my PS2 broke"

Again. What happens when the only VCR in your house dies? You buy another, right? We didn't/don't demand Toshiba put VHS playback in CURRENT Blu-ray players, do we? But Sony HAS TO put BC in every PS4. smh

[s45gr32]

Ok what about DVD. As a consumer I replaced my vhs movies with DVD movies guess what, I can still watch my DVD movies on PS4, my blu-ray player, PC, laptop, etc. I can still listen to my music on the cd discs I bought on my pc, laptop, blu-ray player, etc. All my digital films I pirated years ago, I can still see them today. So, umm yeah guess only Sony is not allowed to offer bc; yet, its competition is allowed to do it. Man you guys will look for anything to defend your favorite corporation. I am not a corporate slave, I took a ROP class in customer service/retail and merchandise. The phrase that my teacher taught me was:

"THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT"

My former boss at Einstein Brothers taught me:

" THE CONSUMER IS KING WITHOUT THE GUEST/CUSTOMER WE HAVE NO BUSINESS"

So think about that before being a corporate slave.

[gangsta_red]

EXACTLY, this type of slave mind only because they prefer a company is baffling. And trying to compare BC to two different formats is just plain stupid.

If I have a DVD I expect that DVD to play in any DVD machine.

Sony has made emulation possible on their PS4 consoles but instead of giving this to their users. Instead they decide to trickle out PS2 games and charge a fee.

It's amazing that these types of fans will sacrifice their consumer rights, convenience and above all just plain and simple logic only because they're allegiance to a BILLION dollar world wide company.

It's funny that most here saying "Sony doesn't owe you anything", were up in arms about MS's DRM for XBO. I guess some pick and chose who owes them what.

[johndoe11211]

I'm gonna respond to both you and gansta red here and I'm probably not gonna respond to any replies you post because it's impossible to reason with people hell bent on looking at a situation negatively.

Neither of you described what sony is doing. This is NOT putting your ps2 games into your ps4 and playing what you played 15 years ago. If you bought the original starwars movies on dvd and placed it in a bluray player, the bluray player would NOT automatically upgrade the dvd version to the bluray version with the additional special effects, additional disc content and the bluray quality video. CUT THE BS. These are two completely different things. What you two are describing is pure backward compatibility, what I just described and what sony is doing is a form of upgrading. Regardless of whether YOU choose to see it that way or not, that is what is happening.

Just as I stated in my blog, if you bought the original starwars movies on dvd and wanted the new upgraded bluray version you will have to BUY IT AGAIN and none of you would dare loose your bloody minds and go and demand that disney give you the bluray version for free. NONE OF YOU.

If it was as simple as just creating an emulator to give you all these features then neither sony nor microsoft would have had to work with developers to get the games running. They would have simply created the emulator and you would be able to run any bloody thing you wanted on the systems. Additional work has to be done.

Hooray that microsoft is doing it for free, but let's not fool ourselves. Microsoft is in a desperate situation and at this point would be willing to sell their mothers to get back in good graces with gamers. If the xbone didn't almost completely sink the xbox division do you think you would be getting GWG right now? HELL NO.

If sony wanted me to pay for me sticking my ps2 game into my ps4 and me playing that game in 480i on my 46" HDTV, then I would completely agree with you, but we both know that is not the case. Now I expect some ridiculous response completely misrepresenting the point I am explaining and arguing for something that is completely different from what I stated.

[ApocalypseShadow]

Forget it John. They are too negative to listen to reason.

[Z501]

Lol! Why bypass the VHS comment, then go straight to DVD?

[rainslacker]

You've brought a blu-ray player with the expectation of being able to play DVD's in it, because that's what the companies have given you. It's not mandated that it be made available. If the company took that ability away from your current system, then you'd be right to complain, because you already paid for it with that expectation in mind.

If they took it out of all Blu-Ray players going forward, you'd have a right to not buy them because they don't provide you the functionality you desire, but that doesn't mean that it was ever something they had to give you, or are required to give you. You would have the ability to purchase a DVD player though, or use it on other devices where it's deemed allowed.

The customer is always right is a commonly misused term. It's more about the customer has to think they are getting what they want, even when they don't. The customer, more often than not, is wrong, and the mentality of they should get whatever they want is toxic to many companies, and drives people who work in service or retail industry insane because of the sense of entitlement that comes from believing the customer is always right.

Treating your customers well is not the same as giving them the keys to the store. A real business class, and not some happy feely sponsored by your company because they were sold on marketing hype would teach you the principals of customer service much better. This is where the current BC argument is at.

All that is immaterial to the topic of BC though, because Sony never promised BC, never provided it with the PS4, stopped supporting it on the PS3 for PS2 games, but never took away what was already sold there.

Customers, who never purchased a product with the promise or intent of a feature, are now demanding they be given that feature.

If you walked into best buy and purchased an iPhone 6, and then in a couple months went in and demanded they give you an iPhone 7, they'd laugh you out of the store...or try to get you to upgrade. But if you went on with this entitled attitude that you deserve it for free because you brought a different product, the police would likely be the ones escorting you out of the store, but I'm sure the manager would do their best to try and play the "customer is always right" card before calling them.

@Gangsta

"If I have a DVD I expect that DVD to play in any DVD machine"

And it will because it's a DVD machine. It will also happen to play in blu-ray players because it's enabled to do so.

But on the topic of BC, a PS2 game will still play in a PS2. It will even play in some PS3's. It just won't play in the PS4, because it's not allowed. It's been that way since launch, and Sony never hid the ability wouldn't be available.

Just because Sony made an emulator does not mean that it is yours to get for free. Would be great if Sony did do that, but they aren't. Seems no one wants to talk about how great it would be to have like what happened with the X1 before MS announced it was coming. Seems all they want to talk about is how they should get it for free because they are entitled to it.

[_-EDMIX-_]

Agreed with you and the author 1000x.

[Concertoine]

Im not going to argue rebuying these games should be free just because 360 games are, since honestly it was just a generous move on MS' part.

But these games are 10-15 bucks guys. It's impossible to say Sony has a better system for BC. If these games were 5 bucks or sold in a generous bundle, there'd be a good argument for Sony here, and isn't that what we want?

And before anyone says it, just because Nintendo commits highway robbery with their Virtual Console doesn't make Sony all good.

[Christopher]

Level-headed response acknowledged and respected. Pretty much what I think most people were thinking who came from owning PS2 games and seeing the $15 price tag on this stuff.

I don't own some of the games they have up, but I refuse to buy them for the outlandish price they're pushing for it. I can get new, modern-day games with great graphics, gameplay, etc. on PC for $15 rather than buying either a game I already own or a game I can pick up at GameStop for $5.

[Imalwaysright]

This is nothing like VHS to DVD or blu ray. If you bought vice city on the PS4 you would in reality be buying the PS2 version. The PS4 "version" is the PS2 being upscaled by an emulator. You are buying the PS2 version for €15. The same version that was released in 2002. If vice city was a movie you would be buying the "VHS" version to play on your PS4.

[ThanatosDMC]

Completely agree especially the vhs to bluray thing.

[s45gr32]

What about DVD/music CDs to blu-ray. Oh that's right it destroys your statement. Pop any DVD movie or music cd into your blu-ray player. My god it works, no the consumer can't or must not play their old collections. For the corporation said so, and the corporation is right and the consumer is an entitled broke ass bitch.

[rainslacker]

It doesn't destroy anything. DVD and CD's are compatible with BR, and DVD's are compatible with BR because the manufacturers deem it available. The PS4 is not compatible with PS2 discs, or PS3 PS2 classics, because Sony has not deemed it available.

Being compatible, and having that compatibility made available are two distinct things, and that's where this whole debate ends up failing because people don't make the distinction, so the debate becomes hostile instead of trying to coax Sony into offering it through more positive means.

Yes it sucks that Sony doesn't offer it for free, but that is their choice, and hating on them at every turn isn't likely to change that. The discussion threads over on their forums of people asking nicely, and making reasonable arguments on why Sony should will probably do that.

The sense of entitlement does not come from wanting the feature, it comes from expecting the feature be made available despite the companies wishes. The act of entitlement is going on rants and trying to demonize the company for it, instead of being a more reasonable person and trying to find a way to make it happen which is agreeable to both parties.

If when I was managing at restraunts, if someone came in with the attitude that I've seen floating around on here, they would eventually be asked to leave and not come back. Not because I have no desire to please the customer, but because that customer was being an ass. When I did that, the restaurants I worked for saw increases in sales and customers, bigger increases in profits, and much happier employees who knew they wouldn't have to put up with so much BS from unreasonable people who think they should get everything free for whatever reason they could come up with.

[DefenderOfDoom2]

Well, if you have a record player to play your music records , you have the best quality equipment to play your music . That's why currently, records cost more than Cd's .

[Imalwaysright]

You are buying the "VHS" version to play on your PS4. The PS4 version is the "VHS" version being upscaled by an emulator. You are paying to use an emulator.

[Z501]

Anyone going to address the examples given INSTEAD of ONLY talking about DVD?

"Let’s say you bought the best of ABBA album when it first released on cassette tape in 1975, can you go back to the record company that released that album, show them your cassette tape WITH proof of purchase and demand the new CD version with upgraded audio for free?"

"What about if you bought star wars on VHS in 1983, can you now go to Walt Disney with your VHS copy and demand the digitally enhanced bluray version for free?"

Anyone? Anyone?

[johndoe11211]

No, hold on, let's play their game. They want to use DVD so let's use DVD. Let's say they bought the original starwars trilogy on DVD in 2000, can they now go and demand the bluray version with enhanced visuals, effects and disc features for free? That's the question they need to answer.

[ziggurcat]

Well, forget just the trilogy, they deserve to get all 6 movies on blu-ray because they spent money on that 1 DVD set 15 years ago... *rolls eyes*

I would love to witness them getting laughed out of the store.

[gangsta_red]

So how about you buy the original Star Wars DVD in 2000 and today you bought a 2016 brand new High end DVD player.

Do you expect to play those original Star Wars DVD's in your brand new DVD player? Now what would you think if those DVD's didn't work on your brand new player... would you be not only upset but puzzled that those DVD's didn't work.

[ziggurcat]

@gangsta:

Except in this case you're not buying a DVD player, you're buying a high-end blu-ray player that doesn't support DVD, and expecting to get the newer blu-ray version of the same movie for free just because you spent money on that movie already.

[gangsta_red]

@Ziggurcat

Except the high end Blue ray player DOES support DVD's All of them do, unless you were conned into buying one that doesn't. ANd now this high end DVD has game emulation, but instead of letting you play your old games they would rather re-release them digitally for a fee.

Some of you are doing your best to not answer the questions but instead keep writing down these insane comparisons that make no sense.

No one is asking for a free upgraded version from Sony.

[ziggurcat]

@gangsta:

"No one is asking for a free upgraded version from Sony."

yes, you are. by demanding that you get to play your old PS2 titles on the PS4 with all of the new enhancements... for free.

the bulk of the confusion is that you, and all of the others whining about not being able to use their old PS2 discs think that this is backwards compatibility. sony has come right out and said it isn't, so stop treating this like it is.

[maniacmayhem]

@Ziggurcat

"by demanding that you get to play your old PS2 titles on the PS4 with all of the new enhancements... for free."

You are the one confused, he didn't say he wanted the enhancements for free. He wanted to just use the emulator to play old PS2 games.

This seems to be where the confusion is coming from all the ones whining in their Sony defense.

"sony has come right out and said it isn't, so stop treating this like it is."

So this is okay with you? You're fine with with the PS4 having the means to play PS2 games but Sony not providing it to you?

[ziggurcat]

@maniac:

"You are the one confused, he didn't say he wanted the enhancements for free. He wanted to just use the emulator to play old PS2 games."

... which comes with all of the enhancements, including trophy support... which you have to pay for... so again... they're demanding to get all of that for free. there's definitely no confusion on my end. i know exactly what sony is providing, it's you guys that seem to think it's something it's not. it. is. not. backwards. compatibility.

"So this is okay with you? You're fine with with the PS4 having the means to play PS2 games but Sony not providing it to you?"

how are they not providing it? you can go and buy the enhanced PS2 titles right now. please, i dare you... go to your local best buy with a copy of any movie on DVD then try to get the blu-ray with all of the enhancements that comes with the blu-ray copy... for free... see how long it takes before you're laughed out of the store.

[smashman98]

I feel like your comparing apples and oranges and ultimately using a bad comparison. I don't expect to pop in my ps2 games and play a remastered game. And that's not what they're giving us in this case. It's just a simple upscale which almost all bluray players do for dvd's. They also added trophies. Which reallyakes all this bc talk a grey area.

[gangsta_red]

Because those examples make absolutely NO SENSE at all.

[johndoe11211]

Listen let's cut to the chase. I have one question and one question only. I don't want any roundabout BS answer, evading the topic, making a case for something completely different to what I asked you or false narratives. I'm asking a question and I would expect an answer for the question at hand, if you think you can't give one or aren't interested in giving one please state that.

Let's say you bought a dvd player in 2002 and bought this with it: http://www.amazon.com/Colle...

You then go in 2012 and buy a bluray player, is amazon obligated to give you this http://www.amazon.com/Compl... for free?

Straight question. Would you go and demand from amazon the second one for free?

[DragonKnight]

No, he'd expect that since the blu ray player is a glorified CD reader that the player's firmware would allow for the reading of his already owned DVD's. Trying to make the case for the upgrades is ludicrous as 1. Resolution and Speed upgrades have always been a part of video game BC and 2. Sony's own OS handles most of it and you already paid for that when you bought the PS4. The developers of these games are not remastering or recoding the games for this emulation so no one should be charged for "upgrades" being handled by the console you already bought.

[johndoe11211]

@DragonKnight

"Resolution and Speed upgrades have always been a part of video game BC"

That statement is utter BS and I dare you to prove it. The ps2 had the feature to upgrade the texture of ps1 games but that feature did not always work and when it did it was almost unnoticeable. The first ps3's that had a built in ps2 could have initially played all ps1 and ps2 games that changed when they removed the hardware and did software emulation which greatly limited the amount of games that could use BC. Even when playing ps1 and ps2 games on a ps3 connected to an HDTV, the graphics did not always look better. Some games looked a little better, some games you couldn't tell the bloody difference and some games looked worse.

Having the hardware do all the work can and will NEVER allow for proper up-scaling. Adding trophy support is another matter as that cannot be done automatically by an emulator. These things take work. You are not entitled to that and if you don't want to pay for it then that's your prerogative.

Do I wish I could have gotten my current library PROPERLY upgraded for free? HELL YES, but the fact is that it's NOT my right. If you aren't getting it where you want it and you're getting it from someone else then by all means go to the bloody competitor, but don't sit here and act like they owe it to you. You don't want to have to buy over games you already own, then buy the games you never did own but always wanted to. It's not bloody rocket science.

This is not meant to be BC, it is not for everyone. It's for those who are interested in playing the greatest game library ever made and didn't have a chance to. If you are expecting it to be more than that then that's your bloody problem, not sony's. This is obviously not aimed at you. So crying and screaming about it like a two year old who just dropped his rattle is absolutely ridiculous.

[gangsta_red]

@John

Once again you are comparing something that make no sense at all.

No one is asking for Sony or anyone else to GIVE them a free upgraded version. Exactly where are you getting this from? Maybe this is where the confusion (or deflection) is stemming from.

Apocalypse Shadow laid it out the best though...Even though Rookie, Dragon, s45gr32 and others elsewhere have said the same with more explanation:

"PS2 can work on PS4. But Sony is not offering it."

Exactly. They would rather try and make a buck.

[DragonKnight]

@john: "That statement..."

Your first paragraph asks me to prove something you then go on to prove yourself, although you try adding the caveat that "it didn't always work." That's not the point, the point is that the feature was there for free from the start and now Sony are trying to charge for it with no justification. No work was done to the games to up their resolution, it's being done by, at best, a repurposed PS3's PS2 BC emulator or Sony's own OS. No justification for the charge for resolution. Next...

"Adding trophy support..."

Actually I am entitled to it. I paid $400 for a PS4. A console whose firmware contains the code for the trophy support feature. Trophy support is not handled by the emulator. The most the emulator WOULD do towards trophy support is handle the specific game flags and send that information to the PS4's firmware. Work was not done for trophy support. This isn't like creating a new game. Sony patented tech to bring trophy support to PS1 games a long time ago.

http://ca.ign.com/articles/...

So again, the devs are doing no work, nor is Sony really as it's simply a software update to allow this to happen.

"Do I wish I could.."

Standard "Company X doesn't owe you anything." Yes they do. And if they want to remain a successful business, they'll remember that. By your logic, Sony doesn't technically owe you any games at all. All you did was buy a console from them. A device that CAN play games. They are not required to supply you with any games to play. Let's see how happy you'd be if Sony suddenly decided that providing games isn't something they felt like doing anymore. You see, you and the defense force are bogged down in the semantics of "rights." Rights is not the issue here, it's principle and good business.

It is an insult to not only prevent PS2 discs from being read, something which can be easily done, but also to not allow people who bought PS2 classics on PS3 to retain ownership on PS4. There is literally no legitimate reason or justification for that at all. There is no physical hardware barrier, nor is there a licensing barrier, nor is there a software barrier. History can disprove any claims to the contrary. It is a clear money grab, and you and the defense force trying to stick up for Sony by saying "they don't owe you anything" is the same kind of attitude publishers count on to pass $50 Season Passes, and increase in game price of $20, the proliferation of microtransactions, the release of unfinished games patched at later dates, etc.. etc... ad nauseum.

"This is not meant to be BC.."

Nonsense. Who else but core gamers would even pay attention to these older games? Do you think the new or casual fans give a damn about Rogue Galaxy? As a matter of fact, try to think of anyone who started gaming with PS3 or Xbox 360 who would say "DAMN, DARK CLOUD FOR $15?!! SOLD!!"

This feature is aimed for people with more money than sense, for people who already know of these games and don't know any better that they should be able to play them for free. This feature is not marketable towards anyone who hasn't already played or known of the PS2's library. Rogue Galaxy, Dark Cloud, and Mark of Kri are not exactly blockbuster, mainstream titles that everyone's heard of but kicked themselves for not being able to play them until now.

Your defense of this insulting cash grab is weak and disgustingly pro-corporate. You thus have forfeited the right to ever complain about corporate practices in the gaming industry ever again.

[s45gr32]

I brought DVD for its a digital disc format just like todays games. Bringing vhs (an analog format) doesn't make any sense to compare to today's games. My point was that us as gamers we don't challenge corporations much less game developers. What I mean by that is we take every single corporate decision without refusing it or telling the corporation/game developers we disagree with their decisions.

Backwards compability allows us gamers to play the games we bought and pay for. It allows us gamers to buy games we missed for next to nothing. It gives us the option to compare and contrast the original copy of the game with the remastered edition of the game.

Game developers could of easily expanded the lore/story of say old game like No One Lives forever. Improve the gameplay mechanics of the old game. Allow gamers to play the deleted/cut videogame levels/missions with commentary explaining why it was cut. Able to expand videogame content on old games; for example, in Deux Ex Human Revolution is talked about people ripping other people's bionic arms. Now imagine be able to see it and play it. For those perverted have a hot coffee minigame in Human Deux Ex revolution (there were hookers in the game).Add new levels/ missions to these old games. The reason why is not done is one lack of bc and two lack of gamers demanding for it.

The PS2 allowed gamers to play PS One games with shorter loading times, full anti-aliasing, and at 30 frames per second for freeeeeeeee. Now we gamers happily pay $60.00 for it. Do you see what I mean. We had that feature Sony stop implementing it and we gamers did not do anything about it.

To this day we have a debate about bc, oh my god stop defending corporations.

[DragonKnight]

Blog should have ended after the first disclaimer paragraph as the rest is just insane. Here's why.

Most of your examples deal with changes in physical media, not software. VHS to DVD is a physically different medium. It's not possible for BC to work between these two Now, CD to DVD is a different story and this is where BC comes into play.

BC is a customer loyalty tactic. It shows the company knows people can't or are unwilling to make a significant leap into new media and so entices them to try out the new product while allowing them to maintain their love of older product. It's also about appreciation, showing consumers that the company appreciates all the money and effort to purchase and use past product and may not just want to toss it aside because something new came along.

And for god's sake so many people with this "this company doesn't owe you anything" pro-corporate B.S. mentality are the worst kind of people.

1. The customer is always right is NOT a method of saying "actually they aren't, you just have to make them feel like they are." No. It's the lifeblood of business. It's the understanding that unhappy customers don't spend money and then your business fails so you'd better kiss their a**es if you want to thrive.

2. The companies owe us EVERYTHING! Our money keeps them in business. They need us, we want them, there's a difference.

3. Any company unwilling to adhere to #1 and #2 will simply be passed up for a company that will. That's the beautiful thing about capitalism, there's competition everywhere.

Sony's answer to backward's compatibility is itself backward. It's a cheap money grabbing tactic and an insult to gamers everywhere. Defending this makes anyone who does a part of the problem, not a part of the solution to publisher greed.

There's literally no reason why Sony can't implement this system and allow for free BC for those who can make use of it. If you own the game already, whether on disc or through PS3, then you shouldn't have to pay anything just for trophy support and screenshots, and 1080p. Sony's firmware is responsible for that, not the original game and anyone thinking the devs are actually putting work into the games is just stupid.

If you don't own the game, then you should pay for it. That's fair. So why not allow for both and then everybody wins?

Hell, if people actually think upscaling and trophies are "really expensive" (they're not, upscaling was always done by BC in the past for free, and lol at thinking trophy support costs big bucks), then why not charge say $1 or $2 per game for the upgrades if you already own the game? EVEN THAT is more reasonable than this farcical answer to BC or "classics."

I honestly can't believe there are people defending such blatant greed. It's really saddening to see people give Sony such a huge pass when if it were ANY other company they'd get blasted a new one.

[Z501]

I [not speaking for anyone else]
used VHS as an example NOT because of format, but because of availability and manufacturing.

Some people still have VHS tapes WITHOUT having a VCR. Just like some still have PS2 games WITHOUT having a PS2.

In this example.
PS2 games = VHS tapes
You can still buy PS2 games, but they're not being massively produced and you have to do a 'little' digging to find them just like VHS tapes. Same goes for the PS2 console and VCR's.

The examples given are questions why we don't ask Toshiba to put a VHS player into every current Blu-ray/dvd player, like http://images.highspeedback...

Again. This is not about format. As the above pic proves it can be done.

So the question still remains. Why don't we ask Toshiba, etc. to put VHS playback into every current blu-ray/dvd player for the people who still have VHS tapes?

AND, how is saying "Sony doesn't owe me anything other than what i've already paid for" [free stuff] defending Sony?

I own a PS4, and i also own God of War 2 for the PS2. Sony DOES NOT owe me the ability to play that game on my PS4 for free. That's what I bought my PS2 for.

*If you don't understand any specific part of my analogy. Say so.

...I'll wait, lol!

[maniacmayhem]

"So the question still remains. Why don't we ask Toshiba, etc. to put VHS playback into every current blu-ray/dvd player for the people who still have VHS tapes?"

I'm really trying to understand this analogy as others are trying to also. I think this is a stupid comparison because Toshiba DOESN'T have any blu-ray players that support VHS.

So it's extremely stupid to ask this.

The PS4 DOES support PS2 games through emulation, they have decided not to let it be used by gamers who have PS2 games.

So instead of asking that extremely outlandish question shouldn't you instead ask "Why doesn't Sony let their gamers use the emulator to play PS2 games?"

But instead of an answer to that all I'm reading is ...

SONY DOESN'T OWE YOU ANYTHING.

If you can't see how that's defense then there is truly no reasoning with you people at all.

I rarely IF EVER agree with Dragon Knight but I am seriously puzzled by this mentality of anti-consumerism lately.

It's not like people are asking Sony to come to their house give them a back rub and personally wash their back in a golden tub. People are asking how come Sony can't make the PS2 emulator available for gamers who still have PS2 games.

[Kavorklestein]

Exactly.
I also rarely agree with DK, but he and you and gangsta red and a few others are spot on- on this one.

Hell let's just concoct an idea, for pure "what if" purposes...
Like what if Sony could even SELL licenses to use the emulator feature?

Would that still be kinda messed up of Sony? Yes.
Granted, it would be far nobler and logical than the current scenario, but it would still be stupid to charge for the feature when your competitor is seeing a huge amount of postitive buzz for doing something similar FOR FREE.

And before any idiotic Sony slave says: "You can't compare them because blah blah blah" it is absolutely fair to be comparing aftermarket emulators on new consoles- Don't even try to go there.

With the Xbox 360 BC being a more recent system, with more complex games, a more challenging task to make more complex/newer games run on a totally different architecture- It is pretty cool that MS is offering this for free.

Now Sony, who has ALREADY OFFERED BC for free in the past with other systems, and is only doing measly PS2 titles, and is already looking stupid for nickel and diming gamers with PSNOW, they had a great opportunity to look decent and respectable.
They not only look like they are copying MS, but they look like assholes in comparison.

Look I understand that Sony never promised this shit for free... that's not the point.
The truth is, anything besides doing BC better than MS would have landed them in hot water regardless of how much it costs for the consumer.
But to CHARGE RIDICULOUS prices to make a quick buck off of idiots for 10-15 year old games (games that many of us still own) when Xbox is doing newer and more relevant games for FREE is nothing but greedy, selfish, and stupid.
Nintendo is probably the only one I can see getting away with this to some degree With Wii and Wii U BC.
But, even then, they aren't charging 15 bucks for Ocarina Of Time digitally or blocking you from your Gamecube Collectors Zelda disc that has Oot, Majoras mask, Zelda 1, Zelda 2, etc from working and FORCING you to buy a digital copy.

The frustration is not because anybody is ENTITLED to games for free, but because skipping the OBVIOUS decision for a few dollars is again- greedy, selfish AND stupid.

It's sad Because they are so busy thinking of the money they HOPE to make, money they PROJECTED TO MAKE, and forgot to think about all the money they would have DESERVED to make- if they had simply decided to be noble and fair to their loyal fans and customers.
I can see selling digital titles as fair.
But blocking the people who already own the games is fucked up.

It's like yeah, we all get it, nobody said this would be free, they never said we are entitled to getting it free. No one never said:
"This HAS to be free or else."

But- The fact that it ISN'T free is FAR more shocking than anybody's reactions are, excluding of course the people who defend not only this, but practically ANY of Sony's bad practices.

[Z501]

"Toshiba DOESN'T have any blu-ray players that support VHS.

So it's extremely stupid to ask this"

It's why I specifically put Toshiba, ETC. Toshiba was just an example. So, replace Toshiba with Panasonic http://images.highspeedback...

After seeing that. Is it REALLY an "extremely stupid" thing to ask?

[DragonKnight]

@Z501: Again, VHS and discs are a physically different medium, that's why the analogy is terrible. DVD's and Blu Ray's are the same medium, and everything is the same in the information world, it's all 1's and 0's. There's literally no reason for Sony to not allow PS2 games to work if they have an emulator for PS2 games. They are purposely blocking (or rather just not enabling) the ability of the emulator to read PS2 discs or the PS2 classics coming from PS3. It's like a toaster not toasting white bread but toasting whole wheat bread and you have to pay for the ability to toast white bread.

[Z501]

"It's like a toaster not toasting white bread but toasting whole wheat bread and you have to pay for the ability to toast white bread"

Didn't you know that's what the toaster did before you bought it?

Wouldn't the logical thing to do ... buy a toaster that does what YOU want?

[DragonKnight]

"Didn't you know that's what the toaster did before you bought it?"

Extending your analogy to the PS4, didn't you know the PS4 can't play PS2 games? Oh wait, yes it can, Sony's just blocking the ability for the PS4 to read PS2 discs or PS3 classics. Kinda like the company that made the toaster holding back a part that lets the toaster toast white bread.

"Wouldn't the logical thing to do ... buy a toaster that does what YOU want?"

That's the thing, the toaster can already do it, it's being prevented from doing it. There's a difference.

[Z501]

"I own a PS4, and i also own God of War 2 for the PS2"

SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION.

Does Sony owe me the ability to put that disc in my PS4 and play it?

[ziggurcat]

no.

[Z501]

This blogs title is spot on. 'A lack of reasoning'

Yes, we understand. Free BC is nice to have. But Sony DOESN'T have to nor do they owe it to us.

You guys want to play those PS2 games you own SO BAD. Put them in your PS2 and play them. Don't have a PS2 anymore. Not Sony's issue. That's a personal issue.

[Kavorklestein]

You sound kinda like Don Mattrick or at least your comment sounds like something he would say.

I can just see it now...
"There is a solution for people who don't want to rebuy PS2 games that could easily be supported for free...
It's called the Playstation 2. "

See how bad that comes across?
Or it that not fathomable?
Oh well, I guess it's time to damage control Sony and make excuses for a stupid ass decision.

[Christopher]

On this page: horrible analogies of buying DVDs to be played on Blu-ray players.

You do realize that the software on those are designed to run with specific software on the hardware. Being able to "play a DVD" is never the same as "being able to play a game made to work on this specific platform".

Regardless of those silly analogies, this is the hard truth:

1. Microsoft has BC of 360 games via digitally provided emulated games that work based on either having the disc or having bought the digital version on XBL. This is freaking awesome.

2. Neither company said they would support BC of any of their old games at release of the hardware. Microsoft came out with BC at E3. Sony has never mentioned having BC or planning to support BC.

3. What Sony is doing is not BC, but about the weakest form of a remaster of sorts. It does something MS doesn't do, which is (supposedly) upgrade things to 1080p and improve framerates/performance. But, that's all it does more of. It costs $15.

4. With that data in mind, it's really up to opinion on whether it's worth it or not. But, that does not say that Sony supports BC, because they don't, nor does it say that Sony can't support BC, because they could. How much effort that would take or the cost to them it would take is unknown, but it would be something.

My opinion is that Sony should put out a way to support BC similar to MS rather than unnecessary 'upscaling' of PS2 games. I agree that putting out what they have for $15 is just a money grab. If you are fine with that, that's your thing. But, IMHO, I'd rather have access to my over 200 games on PS1 and PS2 without having to pay more money. And for Sony, it would only lead them to even more success considering fans would have access to one of the largest collections of games out there.

Also, I do not believe Microsoft would be doing BC the way they are if they weren't in 2nd place this generation. Sony didn't maintain what they learned from last generation and MS failed to learn from Sony's ability to appeal to players last generation in the first year of this generation. Now you have Sony making the same mistakes MS once made. Luckily, there's competition, and that's more awesome than anything else out there right now.

[maniacmayhem]

"horrible analogies of buying DVDs to be played on Blu-ray players."

More horrible than walking in to Disney and demanding an upgrade of a DVD or wanting a VHS tape to play on a blu-ray player, I guess.

The DVD to blu-ray make a lot more sense then those others you didn't make mention of.

Other than that I agree with you 100%. Sony never promised BC but this doesn't make their decision anymore baffling or a cash grab. Why people are saying that because Sony never promised this that it's okay is also strange. No one, at least here is saying that Sony promised or owed them anything.

I am also wondering why Sony just doesn't provide these PS2 games through PSNow. Why not add more value to that service by increasing the library and providing another gen of games for users. It would only make that service that more attractive to gamers, especially older ones who have the income and do remember playing games from the PS2 era.

[Christopher]

1. Sorry, I didn't take into account _every_ stupid analogy made on the page. Please, forgive me /s

2. No, the DVD to blu-ray doesn't make anymore sense than the one you mention. We're talking software that relies on so much more than just a codec. I mean, just think how silly it is of an analogy just by saying that about playing PS3 games on PS4. I mean, they're both blu-ray, right? Why can't I just pop it in and play? Oh, wait, what's that? Because the older blu-ray relies on older hardware specifically as well as old OS software to work at all? You mean, it's not just tailored to play on any blu-ray player you can go pick up, but just that one blu-ray player? What about PS2 games? 360 games?

Just utterly silly comparisons to be made.

[ziggurcat]

i don't see how the DVD analogy is horrible. people are complaining that they can't just pop in their PS2 disc into their PS4, and get to play the game with all of the enhancements + trophy support that comes with the newer versions of the games for free. it's the same as expecting to pop a DVD into your blu-ray player, and demanding to be able to get all of the enhancements that come with the blu-ray version without having to pay for those enhancements for free.

and you're right. it's not BC, and probably a very low tech (some might even call lazy) remaster, but for people to continue to argue that this is BC is a horrendously fallacious stance to be taking. that argument is already lost since you're (and i don't mean you, personally) arguing under the pretence that it's backwards compatibility, which it isn't. it would be a completely different story if this was true backwards compatibility, and i would be in 100^% agreement with those who are complaining about it right now.

[maniacmayhem]

"people are complaining that they can't just pop in their PS2 disc into their PS4, and get to play the game with all of the enhancements + trophy support"

Who exactly is asking for all the enhancements and trophy support? I see more people just wanting to play their PS2 games on PS4 period.

How about instead of arguing whether it's BC or not start discussing why Sony is locking this feature behind another pay wall.

This is what gamers should be upset about or discussing, instead we are getting hung up on analogies and terminologies that's not even relevant.

[maniacmayhem]

"1. Sorry, I didn't take into account _every_ stupid analogy made on the page. Please, forgive me /s"

One would think you would actually pick the analogy that the blog actually states. But then again it's not surprising that you would only pick and choose "certain" comments to pick apart.

"No, the DVD to blu-ray doesn't make anymore sense than the one you mention."

It makes a lot more sense in context sense both are the same media format.

"I mean, just think how silly it is of an analogy just by saying that about playing PS3 games on PS4. I mean, they're both blu-ray, right?"

Except this is not what the analogy is even referring too. You and others are applying extreme hyperbole to something that gamers are simply asking about?

And this is why the original comparison is stupid since it has nothing to do with the main complaint.

No one is asking or expecting Sony to have given us BC since it was never stated it would. But now information has come out that Sony does have the means to maker PS2 games playable on PS4, but instead of giving this as another feature they are making it another paid type of service.

So the whole "Sony doesn't owe you anything", "Asking Disney for an upgraded copy" is just plain wrong since that was never the argument by the people here.

[Christopher]

***Except this is not what the analogy is even referring too. You and others are applying extreme hyperbole to something that gamers are simply asking about?
***

What hyperbole am I spreading when I said all the analogies were stupid? And, Weren't you the one who just said the following about my original comment: "Other than that I agree with you 100%."

Did you forget who you were replying to or something? Or did you just see my name and go with your knee-jerk assumption that I must be promoting Sony?

[ziggurcat]

@maniac:

"Who exactly is asking for all the enhancements and trophy support?"

those who are demanding to be able to pop in their PS2 discs and expecting to be able to play the game with all of the additions...

"I see more people just wanting to play their PS2 games on PS4 period."

and, unfortunately, the PS2 titles that are coming to PS4 also include things that aren't native to the original games, so people are going to have to pay to play those new versions.

"How about instead of arguing whether it's BC or not start discussing why Sony is locking this feature behind another pay wall."

uh... but that's exactly what people are arguing - they think it's backwards compatibility, so they automatically think they should be entitled to be able to insert their discs or boot up their PS2 digital classics on their PS4s... it's not locking anything behind a pay wall because you're not paying to access a service, you're paying for a game like any other game available on the PSN store.

"... instead we are getting hung up on analogies and terminologies that's not even relevant."

how is people mistaking this for backwards compatibility irrelevant?