Microsoft's Xbox 360 goes 65nm: Falcon Dissection and Power Consumption

While there's no conclusive way of proving whether or not these new Xbox 360s will reduce the chances of the dreaded RRoD, the geek in AnandTech couldn't help but try out one of these babies, test it and take it apart.

[Hapimeses]

That was a fascinating read. I'll admit to ignorance regarding RRoD and what caused it, and am surprised to see that this ignorance is fairly widespread, with a lot of supposition going around regarding it's true nature, and little in the way of truth to be found. I only know that of the three people I know with an Xbox360 (my brother, and two of my closest friends), one has suffered from RRoD (the friend in question, Steve, has yet to contact Microsoft about it yet as he's a bit annoyed and really lazy); all their consoles are less than 6 months old.

I was also interested to read how the chips and internal structures were changing (or not), and what sort of a difference these changes made to the use of the machine (unfortunately, no difference to the noise). However, I was a little shocked to read that the newer chips and heat sinks may only have a small, or perhaps even no, difference to the instance of RRoD. Given that I was considering purchasing an Xbox to play online with different friends of mine, and to try out Mass Effect (I love Bioware), I'll admit I'm not so sure now.

Is RRoD really that common?

I know that this site is proliferated with die-hard fans of one console or the other, but we're all gamers in the end, and want the best experiences. So, time to ask a question, in the hope people will answer in a mature and balanced fashion:

Is there anyone out there that has suffered RRoD first hand (not a brother, or cousin, or friend, or pet, or whatnot)?

If it is as prevalent as some people seem to claim, surely upwards of a third of Xbox users would have to say yes? This seems a little unlikely to me, or there would surely be more people being rationally annoyed with Microsoft on this site (rather than randomly spouting off because they own a PS3, or Wii, or just hate Microsoft, or whatever). After all, when I buy a product, I don't expect it to only last for 3 years. I've bought about 6 different consoles in my time, and only one has broken down (a very abused launch PS2 after 6 years of constant use). Will the same stand for a 360? Have I any chance of using the same Xbox 360 5 years later at all? If not, I'm sorely disappointed. Can anyone set me straight here?

Thanks in advance.

:)

[nirwanda]

I just got mine back and it does sound a little quieter and has non of the cracking noises it used to get,
my friend fixes them himself he's just bought a core back to life the main problem he say's is with the x-clamps that hold the heatsinks to the chips they are made of metal and expand at a different rate to the heatsinks and dislodge the heatsink from the chips.

this is why the towel trick works the x-clamps heat up when it gets to a certain heat they snap the heatsink back into place

tell your friend that it's just a simple phone call to ms no questions asked (except for various stuff like serial num and a check on the power supply and cables) and they send someone to you to pick it up free of charge(no postage) and drop it back off in just under 3 weeks

[zaything]

It happened to me twice my friend twice and my cousin once. As fair as not hearing much about it thats MS's money and influence in the business world keeping it as quiet as possible and getting people to claim its a minor annoyance and how micro is taking great care of there customers when in fact no other manufacturer would accept a 14% failure rate there would be a recall extending the warranty is just away to try to get out of replacing every 360 in knowing even with the defect some will last longer than 3 years and having your xbox gone for a month is a major pain not a minor annoyance. To be fair though there are 3 other xboxs i know of going strong

[Hapimeses]

@nirwanda:
Yeah, Steve knows what he's got to do, but, as I said, he's really lazy.
Bit of a shame really, as he hasn't played Halo yet (it's been down for a while).

So, I trust yours died then? Can I ask how long it lasted?

@zaything:
Ouch, that sounds pretty bad. Does anyone else feel it's as high as a 14% failure rate? I've heard both higher and lower, but the stories here are far from filling me with confidence.

[Gamespot-equals-EGM]

I don't know about the new Falcon systems but the failure rate of the Xbox 360 was about 30%, not 14%. Which is god aweful.

http://techdigest.tv/2007/0...

[nirwanda]

It lasted just under 2years it was a uk launch console and lasted nearly 2 years of near constant use

[The Real Joker]

Well I have a 360 and about 6 friends that do also. Out of the bunch, one has had the RROD. So what is that like 16%? lol

[BloodySinner]

Based on what you just told us, it's 16.7%.

[Tsalagi]

That's too small of a group to make a judgment though. Now if everyone in your town owned one and the defect rate was 14% i would be worried.

Out of me and all my friends who own a 360 just me and my brother have had them fail (me two and him one). Hopefully these new chips will finally get whatever is causing it fixed.

[Hapimeses]

@Death Eater:
May I ask how long you have had your machines? Are they launch consoles? Or are they all new consoles bought fairly recently?

@Tsalgi:
Again, may I ask you how old your machines are? Old or new? I've spotted on other forums that it tends to be older launch consoles that are most prone to RRoDing, and I'm hoping my mate's relatively new one collapsing is an isolated case.

And two for you alone? That's pretty rough! Are you still happy with Microsoft? I'd be pissed! Did it take a month each time to replace it, or was your story a little different?

EDIT
@ThaGeNeCySt: Wow! That's far from promising news. The only bit that sounds good is the two years of play thing; but that's what I would expect, so doesn't really overwhelm me.

So, I trust you are still happy with the games and quality of the experience (the bit I think we can all agree looks good), but how do you feel about the quality of the machine itslf? As it stands, I'm not sure I want to buy into it at all, as it looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Is that a mistake?

[ThaGeNeCySt]

it's a systematic crash lol... I had my xbox360 from november 05 to october 07 (got my replacement 2 thursdays ago after about 11 business days without it).. I guess I had a good run after many hours of playing on almost a daily basis... my older brother has had his 360 for almost a year, no problems... a friend of mine bought his 360 from another friend.. his died and is in the process of being repaired.. another friend of mine had a dead 360 from launch... got it replaced the next day... lasted a year, then RRoD... smh @ Microsoft...

[Vojkan]

Xbox 360 is CRAP! I have it and PS3 and Wii, so all of those that just have 360 SHUT UP!!! Don't even try to tell me otherwise when you have just that system and can't compare it to superiority of PS3.

PS3 is MASTERsystem

Xbox 360 sub-system and it should die!

Muahahahahahahah

[TheMART]

Right. You have one. Really. Sure.

PS3 is a master system indeed. A MasterBluRay system

[Silver Bull3t]

Maybe you can trade them all in on some fuking brains. Go back to playing with blocks Timmy.

[felidae]

get a life.

both systems offer something great.

right now, some multiplatform games are really better on the 360.

i said many bad things about the 360 in the last months but after playing some of the multi-games on both systems i really have to agree that most of them run and look better on the xbox 360 (skate, Jericho, Simpsons, Darkness, F.E.A.R., Tiger Woods 08)

don't get me wrong - i love my PS3 and playing Ratchet is so much fun. can't wait for Uncharted. but i also can't wait for Mass Effect because both will be great games, that's for sure.

all the bashing makes no sense - and this also goes out to people like TheMART because if games like Uncharted, HS, Ratchet and Folklore get good reviews - why miss them? i think if you want to play all the great games you should own every system. it's always easy to say that everything for the xbox 360 is better but if you only own a xbox 360, you have no rights to say that.

and in the end, everybody can play and like what he wants.

now give me a Wii so i can play SMG and MP: Corruption, god damn!

[BIGBAER]

Did nasim give it a tug?

You can put it back now. We already know you're an idiot.

By the way do you have to wear a helmet when you ride the short bus? And where'd you find one so big?

[ry-guy]

I hope Sega is calling up their lawyers because last time I checked Sega owns the original Master System ;)

[MrWonderful]

as long as my elite dosent crap out im cool. i got 2 premiums that gotRRoD that are collecting dust right now so i might try to fix them and mod them

[bednet]

Gees, talk about wasting money...can't MS repair them?

You could probably buy a new gaming PC with all that money...I know, I know, thing don't always happen the way you'd like. But seriously, you bought it 3 times!!!

[Hapimeses]

So, you're on to your third machine, yes? Doesn't that seem excessive to you? I only ever bought 1 N64, or 1 PS1, and both still work well. You seem to be suggesting that the liklihood of the Xbox doing the same is pretty low. Is that right?

I keep hearing that the newer machines are much more reliable. But, given Steve's experience (see my first post), and given just how poor the first machines seem to be, I'm really scared that I may be buying a timebomb. Given how many machines seem to have broken down in such a short period of time (only 2 years), how much worse may it be getting soon? What do you think to that?

[Ignorant Fanboy]

Your stupid if you just keep buying a new one, we still have another year of free warranty, no matter when you bought it.

[ShiftyLookingCow]

That was really informative. I hope Jasper pretty much kills RROD.

[vhero]

I had 2 of these consoles granted one of them just had a video problem but the other RROD within 2 weeks on me and i know it was the new model as you can check with the batch numbers the RROD will never go away its not just the cpu at fault

[Hapimeses]

Assuming you are telling the truth, which is what I always prefer, then this is exactly what I'm worried about. If the newer machines are still RRoDing, then the underlying problem probably hasn't been resolved, which doesn't impress me as a prospective buyer. Microsoft may have masked the issue rather than fixing it, which is not filling me with consumer confidence at the moment.

Anyone else have a new machine RRoD on them, or is this an isolated event? If it is isolated, maybe the changes the article refers to have made a positive difference?

[Mikey_Gee]

My understanding is the new batch does not even show the RROD, it now has a differenct LED sequence "IF" you get the error.

I really doubt your honesty ... sorry.

My bud just bought a new model (lot # 0738) and it FOR SURE RUNS COOLER and I find even quiter (I think it is the new BenQ drive).

BTW, my 360 is still going strong .... that is with a good 2 hrs a night easy playing games that take the horsepower to the limit.

[Gina-get-u]

Heat, as you know, is generated by resistance to the electric current flowing through the conductive elements in the chips. With smaller chips you reduce the source of heat in two ways: 1) there is less current flowing through and therefore less heat-generating resistance, and 2) there is less conductive material to heat up.

According to the article, they were able to measure and confirm that the new smaller chips do indeed run at lower voltages. So to the extent that the RROD is heat related, the new chips should go a long way towards alleviating the problem. Due to manufacturing quirks, you may still end up with the odd chip with too little or too much here and there that would cause it to draw more current, and therefore get hotter than the rest of the batch (It's akin to the way some cookies in the baking tray come out of the oven all puffed out of shape). However, these freak chips would be rare to begin with and should get rarer still as yields improve.

So if the RROD is all that's holding you back, it should be safe for you to jump in now. Even if you happen to be extremely unlucky there's still that three-year warranty as a fallback. Turn-around times should quicken as fewer and fewer consoles get sent back. I myself have an early Elite that hasn't given me any issues despite hard use. But then again, I haven't had it that long. Still, should my 360 break next month, the inconvenience I would have to go through to get it replaced will be a price well worth paying for the opportunity to have played Gears, Bioshock and Halo 3. There are several others, but those three alone in my mind would justify putting up with whatever trouble a wonky console may give you.

I hope that helps.

Edit: There is a telltale clue to catch liars spreading fud. No falcon console can have been built earlier than the end of August 2007. It takes at least a month for the machines to ship from the Chinese factories to distribution centers in the US and Europe, and even after they get there they wouldn't be sold immediately until the older stock is disposed of (first in, first out). So anybody that claims to have scored a falcon earlier than last month is very likely jerking your chain. Except under extremely unusual circumstances a falcon that has supposedly RROD'd cannot have been in use longer than two to three weeks at this point.

[Mikey_Gee]

QUOTE:

Edit: There is a telltale clue to catch liars spreading fud. No falcon console can have been built earlier than the end of August 2007. It takes at least a month for the machines to ship from the Chinese factories to distribution centers in the US and Europe, and even after they get there they wouldn't be sold immediately until the older stock is disposed of (first in, first out). So anybody that claims to have scored a falcon earlier than last month is very likely jerking your chain. Except under extremely unusual circumstances a falcon that has supposedly RROD'd cannot have been in use longer than two to three weeks at this point.

===========================

TROLLS ARE EVERYWHERE and they tend to be very loose with details and give umbrella statements far to often.

[Charlie2688]

Talking about 360s and RROD my new 360 has arrived :D took exactly 31 days but its finally back XD

Now I need to buy new games >.>

To be honest I think the RROD might be completely eliminated in both 45nm CPU and GPU and a further improved cooling system

[kn]

I thought the GPU wasn't slated to die shrink until 08 but that clearly is a smaller GPU die... That would mean less heat and less cost as well... Maybe Microsoft is in the Black on their current pricing tier afterall...

[deeznuts]

Anandtech always does their reviews and articles right. No biasness so it's good to see them do this analysis.

[Raptors]

In response to the person asking about the 360 reliability. Ive had the 360 for two years now and its dies on me once (RROD). Oddly enough, I got the RROD after i put that tyko intercooler on the back. Other than that Ive never had a problem with it and I got my replacement last August. Still going strong.

[Mikey_Gee]

You are correct ... DO NOT USE THEM .... not only with they kill your machine (the one that draw power from the 360) but they are STUPID STUPID LOUD.

[theoneandonly]

Its so simple anyone can do it: You get a game turning out massive high end graphics everywhere like say VIRTUA FIGHTER 5, and the heat-synchs do not cool down the system enough...

You play a game non-stop on one of those systems EXPECT to get RROD just from the excessive heat its going to melt your CHIPS....

On a newer console, the HEAT is much lower but still a problem.....when the JASPER finally comes out with the HEAT-SYNCHS fixed into place and non-moving, then the RROD will be eliminated.

Meanwhile, I expect PS3 problems to all of a sudden become an avalanche since the "CELL" chip gets extra-extra hot & Sony recently started abandoning CELL......

The PS3 is going to die like crazy once the heat problems show up, because its using a GEFORCE, and once really intense graphic games or videos come to the PS3 it will heat up & melt the processor like nobody's business........

RROD was only FIRST to happen on 360, it will be a PHENOMENON on any system that gets too hot so the only one that won't have it will be WII..........Until the HEAT-SYNCS are literally fused to the motherboard and don't use clamps..........THAT should happen soon..

[Spartan 117]

I just had to send my xbox in, do you think I will get one of the falcons?

[Covenant]

That helps...people at work are always asking me how to identify the Falcon models, and until now, I wasn't sure how.

A very helpful article. Good job.

[darthv72]

on mine. I came out to see a cup had been tipped over near the unit and there was water on the top and some had seeped through the bottom vent holes. Mad as I was I dried it off quickly and tried to turn it on. It would blink green for a few seconds then go off. No RRoD but I let it sit overnight and tried it the next day. Low and behold it turned on. That is the ONLY instance of any problem I have had with my unit and it is made in Dec 05. Almost 2 years old and still going strong.

[Mikey_Gee]

To also get the crappy old systems gone, when folks send in consoles ... STOP SENDING OUT REBURB GARBAGE. Start putting out the new machines and MELT the old ones.

Sooner than later, you will hear about the RROD almost NEVER AGAIN !!

[KINGDRAMA]

2 years later and they NOW FINALLY fix the heating issue?
How many more years til they fix the disc scratching issue ? 2 more?
HA youd think with all the XBOX LIVE fees they rape 360 owners with, that they would fix all of this when the system first launched.
Commitment, msft sure is commited to its xbox fanbase. COMMITED TO RAPING XBOX FANBASE' wallets.

It would be hilarious if these new falcons start poppin up on youtube with rrod screens.

[UltramanJ]

so I'm guessing (hoping) I've got the Falcon 65nm chips in mine. It certainly doesn't run as hot as my old launch day unit.
Anyway, some of you were comparing failure rates among friends? Well, 3 out of 4 coworkers I know that have 360s have gotten RoD and had to send their systems back, while 1 out of 2 friends of mine that own 360s had RoD. The only reason my 1 coworker hasn't gotten RoD is because he never plays it (he's a WoW junkie). Of course throw in the fact that my launch day unit died also. There's no denying that while awesome for games, the 360 90nm system is the most poorly designed system in console history.