PS3 Real-time Ray-tracing

Quote:

"IBM Interactive Ray-tracer (iRT) using three Sony Playstation3s (PS3) to render a model that is 75x more complex then those used in today's games. Ray-tracing is the rendering technique used by the film industry and is considered to complex for today's game systems. The code was written using IBM Cell SDK 2.0 on Linux. The iRT is totally scalable and only requires one Cell SPE to run. More PS3s = More SPEs = Higher client frame rates. All images are at least 720p 4x multi-sampled, with dynamic light sources, procedurally generated atmosphere, and dynamic shadows"

[CyberSentinel]

That was impressive.

/end sarcasm.

@Sashy: Go back to your boyfriend, and play with his Wii.

[fenderputty]

then your rather a-typical responce. Get out of here. It's not even remotly xbox related.

Can this tech actually be used in games? Also ... can someone link me to a version that isn't on youtube? I can't get that while I'm at work.

[Ps3007]

FORZA set up just got beat badly... I mean BADLY....

[techie]

NO RSX. ALL SPE's. PS3 can employ all ps3's on network...imagine.

"using three Sony Playstation3s (PS3) to render a model that is 75x more complex then those used in today's games. "

Ray tracing to enhance reflections and refraction will be seen this generation in games. And I will look forward to it.

[SlippyMadFrog]

@DeepBrown: Are you a next gen technical expert? Are you an experienced game developer? Can you maybe explain why you think so?

Hats off to this guy programming this graphical display, I bet it took a lot of effort and skill but I see no practical use for his creation.
Maybe he could have added more objects in the environment to show the reflections but that car alone doesn't realy wow me. It also doesn't prove that PS3 is powerfull or not since he used 3 to do it. Actualy, this is just a useless coding experiment but kudos to this guy for coding it.

[techie]

Nice little spin there. No I'm not a developer but I Have contacts my friend. Contacts. :)

[SimmoUK]

Raytracing is possible on one PS3, this is happening in games that are coming out over this year and next. IBM has also demonstrated this at a convention on one single PS3.

[SmokeyMcBear]

I like how cyber is all up on ps3's jock. Just simply cannot let any ps3 article out of his site.. must be envy and jealousy. Don't worry cyber, one day mommy and daddy will make enough money, or maybe you can save your allowance for about a year to get it. Just think positive.

The cell processer is an amazing thing, we are just beginning to see its potential, although I'm not sure I can afford to have 3 ps3s conneceted to eachother, but im sure things will get more stream line. Impressive video none the less

[Superman17]

Yo yo yo...cyber did good thx for tha article, It shows how sick ps3 really is lika "shy beast" scared to release its "gunz". It really has potential. And cyber ur not the only one without a ps3... i am too, im waiting till fall when mgs4 comes out..Anyways ps3 pwns right now

[Ludwig]

Not game related news.

[closedxxx]

I'm not trying to be negative here, but that didn't really impress me at all. Games have been offering real-time reflections, dynamic lighting etc. for a while now, and even when they got the camera closer, it didn't look any more realistic (I may even say LESS realistic) than the car models featured in Project GOtham racing 3, or F1 Championship. The wheels weren't grabbing a ton of reflections or lighting, and the car had a flat finish for the most part. there were a few reflections, but nothing worth drooling over.
Ray tracing is an inefficient way to get complex effects on screen. I'd be happy with some developer trickery that may not be as "realistic" but produces nearly the same quality graphics.

[Killer Cop]

There is a major difference in graphics looking better and more realistic graphics. But Project Gotham Racing 3 doesn't mirror reflect I can tell you, which is a VERY much complicated process.

[Torch]

But in their defence, you're watching a recording of a monitor, not a direct feed. And it's a low-quality youtube video to boot. I remember wanting to show my cousin a video showcasing F1, and he had a really hard time understanding my enthusiasm because the video looked like crap...until he came over and saw the demo in action.

Also, I think that the car automatically loses realism because it's not set in a realistic scenery, and your brain automatically picks up on that right away. Furthermore, the envoronment reflections are limited, because there appear to be few or no objects in the scenery (other than the floor) to cast a reflection. (it's common to "cheat" reflections via the use of an image applied as a reflection map, partly as to avoid raytracing.)

But take a careful look at the car around the one minute mark...at least to me, the car itself looks pretty real.

(Question: how does one measure visual appearance as "75x" anyway??? Personally, a multiple of 75 is a pretty big and arguable number; developers do a fine job at creating plausibly realistic in-game vehicles these days.)

[Retro-Virus]

"Ray tracing is an inefficient way to get complex effects on screen"

If that's what you know about ray-tracing then so be it.

[Torch]

but I think what he's referring to is that raytracing is very cpu-intensive, and that plausible/passable results can be obtained by alternate, more efficient (albeit less accurate) means.

He's right about the "inefficient" part, for these particular intents and purposes.

[closedxxx]

I think I've been misunderstood. All I'm saying, is that for the amount of processing power that is required to implement ray tracing and other "realism enhancing" methods, the payout just isn't worth it IMHO. I've seen fantastic effects in games (as stated above) and although they may not be complying with real-world physics and lighting, they do give a near photo-realistic look to games.
And yes, I understand it is a video of a monitor, and maybe the lack of objects and scenery is to blame for the lack of realism and detail on the Lambo, but as many develpers have stated before in regards to ray tracing, it requires so much, for not that HUGE of a difference in visuals, that it's not really worth implementing.
I'm all for advancement in graphics, but there are always more efficient methods to reach an end. The Unreal Engine 3 proves that.

[Xi]

you wont be seeing raytracing on consoles till next generation, it's great to see it being done but, it just wont happen for a long time.

[JOLLY1]

IBM's raytracer sucks though! It's a system resource hog. Autodesk's Mental Ray is a much more efficient Ray Tracer and it produced more realistic outputs

[Torch]

Anyone's who's tinkered in 3D modelling/animation knows full well that ray-tracing is one of (if not the) most cpu-intensive rendering procedures...We're talking minutes to bust out a single frame for a moderately complex rendering.

So if the PS3 (granted three of them, in this case) is able to calculate raytracing (in 720 HD!) in REAL time (30fps?), the Playstation 3 (or the Cell processor, at least) is a behemoth of a machine indeed.

I have a hard time seeing raytracing being implemented in full-blown games any time soon...as it's way too CPU intensive. Although the spectacular lighting displayed in the LittleBig Planet showcase unveiled at GDC has kept me wondering whether it was raytracing.

Hmmm...you never know!

[Aeroglyphics]

I'd like to run maya on my PS3. If three can give you real time raytracing on a complex model like that, then I can significantly reduce the time it takes to preview my models. Too often do I do a quick preview of something and think it's fine, only to have a major problem when I actually render in raytracing. Just as reference for people who don't really understand this, I use a Mac Pro(Not the new one announced today) the one before that with 2 Intel Xeon Dual-Core Processors @2.66Ghz and it takes me about 10 minutes+ per frame with a complex model. To be honest I'm having trouble imagining how the Cell can do this, It's kind of blowing my mind.

[ApocalypseShadow]

sony is probally going to make a computer generated online game that is run by how many ps3's are linked together.creating that cyberworld that ken kutaragi was talking about.the more systems linked,the more graphically impressive the game will get.(check out GS CUBE-siggraph)

it's why cell is so powerful.it can work together with other ps3s that have cell in it.truthfully, any product with cell in it.it's why sony made it.distributed computing.cell makes other chips look inferior.same with the cpu in 360.not to bag on it.but it's the truth.

another example is folding home.ps3 makes other systems look like a joke at number crunching.it's only a matter of time when companies start realizing what cell can do.i would say the surface of cell hasn't even been scratched.

[sloth4urluv]

Are you 5?
Seriously not to bash on the ps3 but anytime I hear the phrase "harnising the power of the cell" or anything equivalent it just gets under my skin.

To my point the cyber world powered by all the networked ps3 is pretty much out of the question.
Networking is very very slow for sharing data between systems.
Render farms like for movies run on a LAN (gigabit connection)(1028bit/8(bit/Byte ) = 128MB/s) and each computer will render a portion of the full image.

Having PS3s around the world computing a cyberworld isnt feasible with todays technology. Not only is communication between units slow factor in latency since all the ps3s arent in the same room and that makes the connection even slower.
Dont forget that even if you have a 8mbit cable modem your upload rate is prolly 45KB/s max.

So unless you plan on playing this absolutely stunning 1080p cyberworld at around like 1fps I dont tink its going to happen.

Conclusion:
Cell is cool, but not a miracle cpu.
PS3 WAN based cyber reality is not possible.

[SmokeyMcBear]

I don't think all the ps3s around the world connected to make this cyber world. I think he means sony having a farm of these consoles creating this world, and the other ps3s around the world would be able to access it, but hey, I really don't know how computers work and how it gets transmitted, but i think it'll be a cool idea. I mean just think, if sony put a couple hundered of these bad boys networked, just imagine what it could do. pretty sweet eh.

[sloth4urluv]

Even if it was a sony farm with a bunch of linked ps3 (seems kinda stupid. Why not build a server with a couple of cells in it?), its not like that adding more cells is going to make the game look any better.

And the thing I dont get about this story is that each ps3 is only using 1 spe? How is that showing off the power of the cell? linking 3 ps3s together is basically like the 3 cores in the 360 with a bunch of spes not being used.

[12Volt]

also, about the bandwidth issue. It may be an untapped resource now, but fiber is on the rise and the demand is high for it. New Hard drive technologies are slowly gaining steam. Bush will be out of the white house soon, we're looking at the 2nd Digital revolution. My point is, that until these technologies establish themselves, the PS3 will have a technology it can't use. I mean they don't call it the "broadband engine" for no reason. It would be awesome if we got into a game, and the more people logged on the better it became. While the fewer the players the more the servers worked" (of couse they'd have to be Cell Blades)

Cool stuff. But I'd say 3 years down the road.

[Lex Luthor]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[power of Green]

Now we have to own a PS3 to read news in threads with PS3 related topics. lol the moronic reasoning never stops. The guy below you isn't too bright anyhow. Had to stop the vid because it was so exciting and.

[techie]

"welcom3 chang3 was a PS3 saying which this thread has nothing to do with the PS3."

Ironic.

Everyone who does not know what raytracing is...before you go "oooh the ps3 doing something nonspectacular" RESEARCH Raytracing...GaMr was kind enough to give you a little run down which I'm sure none of you read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[fenderputty]

have to own a PS3 to read topics related to them. It's just that you, or that moron on the top, NEVER have anything good to say. Your existence in this thread is nothing more then flame bait. You both are the anti-thesis to the worst PS3 fanboys.

I don't understand why I can't come into a thread about a system I bought without having to sift through excrement from you or your gang of idiots. Again ... I don't condone PS fanboys ruining halo threads. Why should I condone your lame a$$es coming into here?

He proves my point too. Unimpressed with something the most advanced computers have a hard time doing.

[PSN Starfleets]

I'm sorry but what am i supposed to be impressed by? A car with lighting and shadows?

[Arkham]

If you knew anything at all about ray tracing you might be somewhat impressed.

I remember blowing customers away in 1986 with the Juggler demo on the Amiga 1000. Ray Tracing's still pretty freakin' cool.

[Sashy]

Now Iam really proud of my playstation 3 :D I dont know what they are doing but Iam shure that they are doing stuff that Xbox 360 and Nintendo Wii aint capable of.

[Dragonopolis]

Not so much the Ray tracing but demonstrating that multiple PS3's can be used with software without any Hardware modification. One can assume that if Sony really wanted to they could update their own OS to allow SMP among multiple processors.

I like to see Sony give it a shot. Just like PC games, take the same game and add SMP to the game for those who can use it. Could be an in game setting to improve performance and graphics in the game.

I think that the demonstration was just too cool and I would definitely be on my way to the store right now if SMP was supported with a really cool game.

[artman]

It's a pain to render ray trace reflect/refract... why the graphic is not impressive? it's because there is not many environment there guys... it's reflected the environment, where games now is mostly... using tricky engine maybe... I'm not sure...
but it's good enough, but when this technology especially mentral-ray anything with ray... is absolutely stunning... then what you see now is just... is not good as when you see at the first time...

[IPlayGames]

Play Beyond

[fenderputty]

Can someone download this or something and post it elsewhere for me? I can't see Youtube at work. It sucks.

[marcindpol]

well is nice to have this monster at home, i mean PS3:)!

[MikeGdaGod]

i have no idea what this means, someone please explain

[Aeroglyphics]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

See my comment above for more.

[Ps3007]

That Big Forza 2 set up just got OWNED...

[00]

Mmm...how did forza get owned by this? is it because it has a car in it?

[Bonsai1214]

i have no idea what any of that stuff means, but i know its impressive to generate that only using SPEs

[zonetrooper5]

I pretty sure that Bungie is gonna be using ray-tracing in Halo 3, though i might have to check that out. Secondly, both the Xbox 360 and PS3 could do ray-tracing but it would be at the cost of someting else. I have no idea PS3007 what the hell your talking about but Forza Motorsports 2 will be an excellent game, i'm still not sure how this owned the game.

[fenderputty]

to the worst xbox fanboys.

[Arkham]

Agreed. Whatever the hell does it have to do with Forza? That guy's just babbling fanboy nonsense.

[SmokeyMcBear]

he's saying forza doesnt have ray tracing.. neener neener

pretty pointless

[JOLLY1]

Team 10 (the people behind Forza) use Autodesk 3DS Max which uses Mental Ray (an efficient Ray Tracer). So, yes Forza has Ray Tracing.

[artman]

I have 3DS max, mental-ray is not design for real-time rendering, even when you are using nvidia quadro series...
you sound funny~ lol

none of the games using mental ray now. they use 3D max for modeling, texturing and animating... put some physics... etc... but then... it's the engine that use to render the game... like cryengine, unreal engine... most of the company using their own engine~

the best engine I know so far is unreal engine n cryengine... MGS4 also have their own engine... which looks promising too~

[InMyOpinion]

Is this the 4D 200fps 1080p game they were shouting about prior to the Ps3's release? So now they want you to pay not 600$ but 1800$ to play "next gen" games lol! Kidding...

But...Show us some games instead. The machine is out and they're acting like it's not released yet. Graphics demonstrations etc. This just demonstrates what the Ps3 can't do unless it's linked to two other units. Hook up 3 x 360 and I bet you get the same results. If not, at least you get better looking actual games. Put the graphics in the games instead of in silly demos. Put up or shut up!

[power of Green]

LOL gang of idiots huh. Hmmm...

[fenderputty]

gang of tards? Gang of morons? Gang of dimwits? Gang of Bafoons?

[Yo Wassap]

Even i have to say that reply was funny Fenderputty

[Bebedora]

I want to have that linux version IBM has. Pronto!!

[ApocalypseShadow]

when he is interviewed or makes comments.but the man is a hardware genius.he knows what should be for the next systems and computers even though he may not be able to get his point across publically.even masa chatani tried to present that point at E3 2005.look at this vid:

http://www.gametrailers.com... is the e3 05 presentation)

masa talks about cyberworlds and the power of the cell and what it can do.it almost seems he's talking about something sony is working on but is not ready to show.just like "home."sony never shows something unless it is fully functional.i hate that.but i understand why they hide things.if they were creating ray tracing products you would never know because they wouldn't tell you.same with the new eyetoy2.notice how it vanished since e3 as well as eye of judgement?

the ones bagging this demo just don't know.they get bored unless it is a game in their face.it's sad really.the tech demos show what possibly can be done with game systems and their applications(example-the early unreal engine demos before assets were used for gears of war).this is one of them.

open your eyes people.

JENZO,360 can't do what cell is doing.you can't link 360s together to make this possible.cell was made for this.it's why they call it the broadband engine.the cell processors can be linked to work together.online or offline.

[Bebedora]

In some stances Sony gets things right and really right. Even when it sounds like crazy-talk. But some times they are aming too high and see themselves follow through, when they are not able to (BC 100% for one). That is when some people crys at Sony for their 'lies' and so forth.

[TheExecutive]

10 year life span starting to look a little less "out there"

[Bebedora]

....What is your "expert" prediction? I have some faith in the engineering of Sony since PS1 and PS2 has been around for such a long time as they have. But maybe I have too much of it this time? Why? Do tell. You might convice me.

Comparing to what you have to pun out with in dough you are very well fit with a PS3 for years to come compared to a PC or a XBox branded gaming device.

You will get great boost in performance with the iNtel CPU:s coming, but for what price? And that great nVidia/ATI card smashing the PS3 in performance for around the price of 4-5 ps3:s and 10 games (by then)? You have not getting what it's all about. Sony has (and I have, of course. :D ) Add to that, the know-how of the platform to perform, and you have the PS2 all over again.

The xbox # what in order you have to pay for again to get the same price/value I dont know, but history may prove me wrong. Mine is a hefty sum (in a 10yrs time) and low quality.

[TheExecutive]

I am no expert... never claimed to be one. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. That is all anyone can give at this point. We are actually just starting to figure out what this CPU is capable of; Sony isn't stupid like many people think. This is going to sound kinda fanboyish (I am a fan of gaming; not a particular console), I think the PS3 is one of the finer designs I have ever seen. A lot of thought went into this console. SO, IMHO I would say 8 years...

P.S. I think many of us forget that the PS3's first generation games look as good and in some cases better than the 360's second generation games. Yet there is little talk of this.

[Dareaver1]

What is first gen second gen, is it a developers first outing on a console. because remember gears of war is epics first outing on the 360, plus it was announced before the 360 was released. Hmm, so you have to be talking out of somewhere other than your mouth. Some of you people make no sense with your brand loyalties. The ps3 amazing console, but i want to see it more game centric, sorry. But if i'm going to buy something advertised as a game console, please put games first. Worry about the bells and whistles later. And yes the cell is a broadband cpu that they are going to incorporate in other electronics. That doesn't sound like it was specialized for games first. Sorry, just calling it how i see it. New tech is new tech, Do you remember the jaguar. It had 3 processors. The Sega saturn was more powerful then the psone, but it meant nothing because they couldn't put it into games. all this blah blah blah lip smackin is gettin irritating. I just want to see games, and play games. if you want to bring more to the table after i play my games then i would be like, wow i really got my bang for my buck. That would make more sense then constant tech demos. A lot of this stuff should have been figured out already. The console had a whole year to make necessary changes. Even the 360 is at foul with that. Their decision on not going water cooled cost them the full potential of their graphics card. Now that to me is just stupid. If these companies would just start having the gaming communities interest at heart first, most of this nonsense wouldn't be taking place. But now we have to see what can be done, instead of what's being done. Thanx for the rant...!

[Bebedora]

Sorry, but I have some spots in my linguistics. I read your sentence somewhat wrong. Sorry for that.

Furthermore...
I think Sony has a history worthy my loyalty so far. XBox brand has not. Why? PS2 is one. Very reliable and stable console that brings great games 6 years later. What hardware can do that?

XBOX lasted 3 years? And it didnt take off that much. (minus in the bank for MS?). New console, one w/o HDD in xmas 2005. HDD-DVD addon later on. New console in 2007 (elite).

All in all. Where is the strategy in all this mess? And now comes the gaming in. If you can get some great games on the XB360, how long can you enjoy this till MS wants to pump out another console? 2008? Will I have to make another purchase or go with a cheaper PS3 with more and better performance than the XB360 in ther games and more coming to it?

I say if you are a console buyer now, I would definitely go with a Sony PS3. If you wait a bit longer, you see for yourself how it all will pan out to be and what console to buy of course.

[FirstknighT]

Nice! Another useless video that will never be used in a game.

[BIadestarX]

I read a lot about this topic and it's cool and all. It can also same lots of companies (in the film industry) some time by rendering faster; though I believe most if not all will buy a super IBM computer instead of putting 5-10 PS3 together. It's obvious that this was design to advertise the PS3 and it has no practical usage.

To be honest with you Sony should probable release this application in the near future so Sony fanboys can go to the store and buy 3-4 PS3 so they can try themself how cool it is to see all the lighting $h!t going on at a frame rate of 4-5 frames per second.

Practical for games? uhhh NO! Practical for game developers and companies generating CGI? Yes.

Sorry to burst your bubble but you will not see this level of "Real-time Ray-tracing" on a video game console for a long time.

To be honest with you there is no other use for this type of experiments other than hype the PS3 and to make Sony fanboys feel good about their purchase.

Sony did the same thing back when the PS2 was release:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/...

"Scientists at the US National Center for Supercomputing Applications, (NCSA) have linked together 70 PlayStation 2s to find out how good they are at crunching numbers.

The machines were linked together as part of a project to investigate how to cut the cost of creating powerful clusters of computers.

Now the scientists are refining the Sony supercomputer and seeing how it compares to other clusters around the world.
"

More $h!tty experiments for the fanboys:

http://www.g4tv.com/screens...

"Deep in the heart of Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, some very smart people have linked together a room full of Sony PlayStation 2 game consoles. They use the cluster as a tool for scientific computing and high-resolution visualization, harnessing the unique properties of the PS2's main computer chip. Machine rooms are staffed 24 hours a day."

and even more crap....

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-...

A U.S. research center has clustered 70 Sony PlayStation 2 game consoles into a Linux supercomputer that ranks among the 500 most powerful in the world.

You fking fanboys never learn. Name one practical use from all these PS2 experiments and cluster bla bla bla performed on the PS2?

Did I go back in time? ohh look Sony is doing the samething again? Ohh I get it, they are hopping people do the samething they did back when the PS2 was launched.

I can almost copy and paste the things (scientific bla bla) said about the PS3. Sony does understimate the power of google search.
You don't believe me try it yourself.

Google search "PS2 super computer" and you will get more than 2,160,000 results.

If you are going to buy the PS3 buying for what it is.. a game console.

Edit:

@SmokeyMcBearc, you are very welcome. I have a question for you. As matter of fact I have 2 questions.
1) How did you personally or anybody else benefit from these unpractical scientific ps2(super computer) experiments? Where is the PS2 CPU today? If you can't give me an answer I thank you for Volunteering in showing the rest of the world a very important lesson in marketing 101 when it comes to the average (non-smart) consumer. What we see here is an example of bull-$h!tting(hype) marketting and victim falling for it. It always works, “Make sh!t look cool and the ignorant will buy it”.
2) Do you know why they call Sony fanboys lemmings?

[SmokeyMcBear]

haha actually that is a really great example for showing how all those people used the ps2 in all types of different ways, and im not sure, but is there a coincidence that the ps2 sold over 110 million units.. cuz maybe that could be. I dunno, but hey if it worked for the ps2, then it should work for the ps3.. thanks again for providing all those great examples of different uses of the ps2
>>>>>

Well me personally, with the ps2 pretty much nothing, ( maybe with the ps3's folding@home, could be possible in the future, I have had relatives pass away from cancer, and if this can help, then all the more power too it, but thats a story for another day)...and too be totally honest with you, I had no idea about these uses until you just brought them to light. But I do believe you give the general public far too much credit, we are easily impressed. We see something shiny that goes fast.. then hey we want it. And marketing works, if it sells units, thats all that's important right. Theres also the cool knowledge that my console can do something your console can't its just a good feeling.
As far as no.2, well no im not sure sure why they call sony fanboy lemmings, but I know why I call a xbox fanboy a lemming. I mean cmon, you can actually ignore the red ring of death phenomenon, well make that general occurance. The scratched discs, the constant exhange of refurbished consoles, the abandoning of 24 million customers so a new product can.. no has to be bought. That in my mind is a true lemming, blinding going along with the crowd because its the thing to do, totally ignoring common sense about the quality of a product. Now as for sony fanboy lemmings, im not sure. I can only tell you my personal experience, reason for purchasing a console. #1, i purchased a home entertainment center, not only a gaming console. Ive had the psp for a good 2 years now, and I thought it was the coolest thing to rip a dvd, convert it to a mp4, and watch my movie collection on the go, ie, train, plane.. automobile, haha. Now having my dvd collection at the touch of a button on a game console ready to see it on my 42" HD Tv. totally sold me on that fact. Having my music collection as well as my digital photos was also good, ive had it on my psp for the longest. Im sure the 360 can do the same with media center and all, but I dont have a media center pc, and i dont plan on getting one. Second of all the features it has, remember I purchased a home entertainment center, the blue ray was a major factor in purchase, as was the built in wifi. I've always had my set up with wires upon more wires, and if I can connect without a ethernet, and no cables for the controllers, as well as a single connection to the tv (HDMI), then I'm all for it. Next would be price point, since I purchased a warranty from best buy with the slim ps2, I could exhange it for the new ps3 and receive 150 credit. So I didnt purchase a ps3 for $600, I purchased it for $450. And as a bonus, I could play every single ps2 game that I had in my collection, nice concept don't ya think? And finally, Its the name man, Ive had 4 consoles in my life. An NES, a Genesis, A ps1, and ps2 and now a ps3. I loved Genesis, but sega is gone. I grew up otta the NES mario genre. Sony has been with me through thick and thin, and I have never had any problems with it. Well actually no, my first ps2 crapped out after about 3.5 years of service, and I got the slim one. I trust sony. I do not trust M$, its just that simple.

[CaliGamer]

BladeStar (aka BS), Hahaha, has a lot of time on his hands. Probably that is why he could lovingly put together such a conglomeration of old Sony news. If he put half as much effort into getting a proper education he would have a Ph. D. Maybe we can start an educate BS fund and send his A$$ to Devry for some proper education.
But I digress, game on.

[Maddens Raiders]

one more unit and I can begin running my own Raytracing simulations.lol

#28.) The Executive, your comment was right on target buddy. Right on target.

Ehh...something wierd just happened....a/w apologies for dblpost

[Maddens Raiders]

one more unit and I can begin running my own Raytracing simulations.lol

#28.) The Executive, your comment was right on target buddy. Right on target.

[Torch]

the sheer, unselfish sacrifices you make in the name of science! Nobel Peace Prize, anyone? ;)

(BTW: two PS3's running? It must be 130 degrees farenheit in there! I've got "only" one unit, running in a room with cathedral ceilings, and still causes me to break a sweat after a half-day crunch-a-thon.)

[Maddens Raiders]

T0rchy what size is the room you're in and what are your latitudinal coordinates dude? Like two nuclear submarines, mine run deep (into the night) and silent; absolutely no overheating issue of which to speak.

Now, you are "T0rcy" by trade man, right?.....I'd be remissed if I didn't ask if it was just you that was heating it up?lol I mean, maybe you're about to go Firestarter on us or something.

P.S. - Yeah I don't know about the Nobel, but I do know about helping to fight diseases that plague our kind. Give and give often. But apart from that, anything this easy to fight that scourge is going to get a reaction from me; so I urge everyone to Fold@Home as often as your time will spare.

Cheers =]

[TheExecutive]

My PS3 doesnt create a lot of heat... what do you have your system in? Is it getting enough ventilation? thats weird...

[ApocalypseShadow]

*The Good news and the Not-so-good news
-- The Good
*-- increasing Parallelism in CPU/GPU
*-- Workloads -- graphics and GP -- are highly parallel
*-- Moore's law and the "capability curve" are still our friends
-- The Bad
* -- Parallel Programming is HARD (especially in a serial language/environment)
* -- Language and Tool support for parallelism is poor
* --Computer Science Education is not focused on parallel programming (needs to be undergrad level and not grad level)

so the good is that distributed computing(parallel work) is a beast.the bad is that not a lot of programmers know how to do it.they lack knowledge.which is kind of bad.

sony tried some of it with ps2.sega even did it somewhat with the sega saturn.it hurt sega more because they wouldn't teach others how to program for the multiple chips.sony did and you still get games like ffxii and god of war 2 seven years later.multiple processors working together works.one can't outdo multiple.unless your bruce lee or your name ends in li,lee or chan(LOL).joking.

sony will show why bluray is needed.
they will show why cell is needed.
they will show why the hard drive is needed even though they didn't make it standard in ps2.
sony will show why hdmi is needed for the best picture.
sony will show why the eyetoy is next gen.
they will show why they are going all out this time with online.

it just takes time.my prediction?:

E3 will be shocking.and those who have doubts will lose it in july and afterwards.

and bladestar,the reason sony did those experiments was that they knew their next chip would duplicate those experiments.which is cell.they wanted to know what the results would be of parallel number crunching.

sony is a hardware company.that's why they have some of the best electronics.their tvs,cameras,their game systems.they have a lead in that field just like microsoft has a lead in the software field.you'll see soon enough.

[Torch]

All the "good" is beneficial and critical, and all the "bad" will be erradicated with time.

In conclusion: The PS3 is one BAD mother.

But in a GOOD way.

No? ;)

[TheExecutive]

Do you suppose they can develop more tools to help developers with parallel processing?

[ApocalypseShadow]

much more simple than the way i said it.i can get long winded sometimes.but you are correct.the ones hating on cell just don't know what it can do.they want results now.because microsoft is giving them now.but now won't last.because later is coming.they just can't see it.

sony is not worried because they are pretty much where they want to be compared to ps2.they have no real need to rush.they don't need to shout out numbers but hide the real figures.they don't need to call themselves the leader.they don't need to spend millions in viral marketing.and they don't need to abandon their customers to get the jump or redo systems that aren't future proof.the price will drop and the marketing will push ps3 right out the door.

it's only a matter of time and during that sony continues to rake in the money with ps2 and psp.

[TylerDurden]

and in turn when better tools, better teaching at undergrad levels, etc..shouldn't we see advancements with the xbox as well? Doesn't it have a tri core hyperthreaded cpu(6 logical cpus) so basically it would suffer some of the same problems the ps3 has right now.

As far as poor language support, c++ has offered ways to create multiple threads and support for atomic threadsafe operations for years now, and people have been using them for years. I don't get why this is always used as a reason as to why dev's aren't able to harness all the power of the ps3 or 360.

[BIadestarX]

Tyler it has to do with memory.

The PS3 is so much more difficult to program than the 360. In a sense it is designed similar to multiprocessor systems used by specialized customers such NASA Ames Research Center. The concept is based on the principle that there is a very large amount of repetive mathematical data that can be performed in a parallel or a segmented sequential fashion (ex. one core multiples two arrays of 10000 numbers and then passes the output array to another core which performs divides on individual elements in the array which will pass the array to another core which performs some other operation on the data, etc. After the first core finishes its operation, it will acquire more data and perform the same operation).

Like the 360, the application would initially be developed using the PPE core. Next you would think that the PS3 (just like the 360) would be able to segment the game control plus AI code into one core and the graphics rendering code into another core. However that is not possible! Since the total application code may be about 100 MB and the SPE only has 256KB of memory, only about 1/400 of the total code can fit in one SPE memory. Also since there isn't any branch prediction capabilities in an SPE, branching should be done as little as possible (although I believe that the complier can insert code to cause pre-fetches so there may not be a big issue with branching).

Therefore the developer has to find code that is less than 256KB (including needed data space) that will execute in parallel.

Even if code can be found that can be segmented, data between the PPE and the SPE has to be passed back and forth via DMA which very slow compared of a pointer to the data like the 360.

If we assume that enough segment code was found that could use all the 6 SPE cores assigned to the game application, now the developer would try to balance the power among the cores. Like the 360, some or all the cores may have a very low utilization. Adding more hardware threads are not possible since each core has only one hardware thread. Adding software threads probably will not work due to the memory constraint. So the only option is an overlay scheme where the PPE will transfer new code using DMA to the SPE when the last overlay finishes processing. This is very time consuming and code has to be found that does not overlap in the same time frame.

[xg-ei8ht]

Its impressive if you know what ray tracing is! and Aeroglyphics
explains it well enough, to know its one of the most cpu intensive apps there is. Its all about the numbers baby!!!

Anwayz, xbox360, whether link with another 2 360's would be pretty fast, but nowhere near the cell.

For anyone with a ps3 at home, be glad to know, so far, ps3 is only using 35% - 40% using both rsx and cell. (not with games released) but with heavenly sword, Killzone2. So In time you'll see the difference ayear makes(no xbox360 pun intended)

[TylerDurden]

For the detailed explanation. Back to that in a second.
I actually replied to the wrong shadowgamer post. I meant to reply to 33 where he discussed all the lack of knowledge,tools of paralell programming.

I was just stating that the 360 also makes use of multiple cpus so when better tools, knowledge about paraell/multithreading programming are available shouldn't the 360 benefit as well? I mean people assume that only the ps3 will benefit from this and that somehow the 360 will standstill.

Back to your statement. It sounds like a very difficult thing to accomplish, and it may be a little shortsigted from me but possibly a bad architecture to follow. The way to attract developers to use your hardware/libraries/etc...is to either show things not possible by other tools/products or make things a whole lot easier for them. It sounds like Sony hasn't done either yet.

For a gaming device the PS3 only has more power in a theoretical sense right now. Why do I say that? Because no one not even Sony themselves has shown a game where you could say to yourself that it is superior to the 360. I still haven't seen anything better than Gears, and stuff like Crysis pretty much blows away both what the 360 and PS3 are doing. If the Cell processor is so superior to a traditional CPU why can't it compete with high end PC's that are out today?

Sorry to all for straying off topic I am just curious as to why everyone assumes that in 2-3 years people will be able to unlock the power of the PS3, when right now Sony can't do it themselves.

[BIadestarX]

moved.

[ApocalypseShadow]

the difference is that 360's chips weren't built like cell.even with tricore at 3.2 ghrz. each,they're all off the shelf chips.ibm built the chip but microsoft didn't go for innovation.they went for efficiency and ease of development.it also makes no sense to microsoft on linking 360s together.or linking 360s together online to distribute the work.

sony on the other hand built cell to do crazy types of work.and each spe runs at 3.2 ghrz each to help the main processor which is also 3.2.never mind that it's built in the ps3.it sounds ridiculous on why you would need this much power in one chip.but their experiments showed they needed that power to duplicate the 3d cg quality graphics.GS cube proved that with 16 ps2s running in parallel.that cyberworld that ken k was talking about is not that farfetched.

the question is what type of cyberworld sony's programmers and IBMs programmers could create?what would you do?would it even have a story?would they allow negative interaction between players?i think HOME is an experiment on a 3d modeled cyberworld.HOME does not have to be limited to just chat and sharing content with your list of friends.if the physics is already built in,then you could create racing,flying boating,cities,shopping malls,etc. all in that cyberworld.ps3 may not be sufficient for this but the experiment will be ran by sony.and i dare say,may have to be purchased later on.

cell will prove itself.programmers will get the hang of it eventually.i also want to know if and when sony will use the hd camera not just to video conference and produce your own user created content,but i also want to see the eyetoy camera used to control the XMB as well as linking the eyetoy camera and making it recognize the motion controller,essentially making nintendo's wii remote obsolete.

edit:scrumptious what you don't get is that each chip on the 360 separately are not that powerful.you're one of the people that don't "get it."together they are,but the 360 cpu is not as powerful as cell at doing parallel work.as eljuggernaught said,cell by itself is powerful.working with other cells,they create a supercomputer.if you would set aside your fanboyism,you would see that.

[ChefDejon]

the Ps3 is powerful and when its in a group its a super computer its been proven plenty of times. its an advanced piece of technology

[Eternal E 808]

so it takes 3 ps3's to do this not impressed at all!

[Scrumptious]

Get over yourself. The Cell is just a CPU. "Broadband Engine" is a Sony hype marketing term, just like "Emotion Engine" and "Reality Synthesizer". Sony sure has you hooked.

Sure, the 360 CPU is "off the shelf". Just go to CompUSA and ask for a triple core 3.2GHZ dual thread CPU. It's just as "off the shelf" as your Cell, which has a PPU almost equal to one 360 core, and seven (six usable)primitive co-processors. You know I could go on for days about the bottlenecks and throw quote after quote, but you'll just refer to the PS3 box and state those facts back.

Please spare us of your industry and tehcnology analysis, and go play Home-O.

[DJ]

Have you already forgotten that IBM is the company that put together the Xenon CPU? Cell is referred to as a broadband engine because it chews through and delegates very large amounts of data, more so than any other mass market chip.

[kewlkat007]

I hear the Ps4 is on its way...get ready for 4-D gamers..

[ALIEN]

This is cool.

BY THE WAY! kewlkat007 where and when did u hear that ps4 is on its way. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW!

[kewlkat007]

I guess the sarcasm didn't work...

Anyhow is this equivalent to man living on mars in the next 10 years?

[Close_Second]

Early on in the piece Sony announced that the 'Cell' was capable of load balancing across multiple 'Cells'. For instance, when Sony releases a TV featuring a Cell processor that your PS3 could potentially load balance with your TV. This IBM demonstration gives us a clear indication as to what can be achieved using 3 Cell processors.

Unfortunately this puts the PS3 in a similar position as the PC, that is, the more powerful the PC the richer the gaming experience. I for one do not want to see console games going down a path where you will only get the maximum experience from a game if you buy additional hardware. Consider this, how would you feel if to get a sustained 60fps at 1080p when playing Resident Evil 5 you needed to load balance with your PS3 with another Cell processor?

[PS360PCROCKS]

this is impressive? hmm ok i didnt think so

[DJ]

I mean, if DMA transfers are so slow then why are PS3 titles getting such high performance for things like AI and Physics processing? Complaining that the SPE's memory is 'only 256KB' is a bit hypocritical since each hardware thread on the Xenon CPU gets 'only 133KB' of on-chip memory.

Every complaint and allegation made against the Cell BE was already addressed before the chip was even released. DMA allows for secure and fast transfer of data between XDR ram and Local Storage in the SPEs; the PPE has nothing to do with it. Microsoft affiliates have tried very hard to make it seem as if all SPE data has to pass through the PPE, and that's simply not true. You have to wonder why Cell is being used so heavily for High-performance servers, Graphics Processing, Physics Processing, Military usage, and Medical imagining/calculations, while the Xenon chip is sorta collecting dust.

*The SPEs are completely independent of the PPE, and from each other. This is why programmers can string together clusters of cores within Cell to create endless programming strategies.

The most popular method is to have the PPE handle all the main instructions because developers haven't actually moved into full parallel processing; they simply use elements of parallel processing since it's very hard to deal with.

The next stage though (and you'll see this fairly quickly) is to have SPEs acting on their own without assistance from the PPE, and in some cases the PPE will be completely ignored because the SPEs handle general purpose code almost as well as the PPE, but without the performance deficits inherent with Cache architecture.

Here's the kicker. The Cell BE can even be programmed like the 360's Xenon CPU, albeit with over twice the on-chip memory, faster internal bandwidth, and RAM that runs 5x faster.

[TylerDurden]

Just have some questions..hopefully you can help me out.

"why are PS3 titles getting such high performance for things like AI and Physics processing?"

Which titles are you talking about? I would like to check them out. The only two titles I have played are RFOM and MotorStorm. RFOM AI wasn't noticeably good. MotorStorm does have great physics. Is this due to the Cell. Are physics like this not possible on the 360?

"You have to wonder why Cell is being used so heavily for High-performance servers"

I know I could google this but just curious as to what type of high perf servers your talking about it. Also perhaps someone running one of these high end servers could share with Sony how to get the most out of the Cell? Again how does anyone know whats graphically possible with the Cell if Sony so far hasn't figured it out. If they already had figured it out wouldn't they be showcasing that instead of taking heat for trying to pass off CGI as in game graphics?

"*The SPEs are completely independent of the PPE, and from each other. This is why programmers can string together clusters of cores within Cell to create endless programming strategies."

How is this different than the Xenon or any SMP for that matter?

"but without the performance deficits inherent with Cache architecture."

How is having the L1 and L2 cache lines a perf detriment? Many dev's are already familiar with the quirks involved to ensure their data is in the L1, L2 or cpu registers. I know that the Cell designers felt this was difficult and too much of a burden, but I don't see the benefit of taking it out when most are familiar with the burden. How does not having L1 or L2 help perf?

"Here's the kicker. The Cell BE can even be programmed like the 360's Xenon CPU, albeit with over twice the on-chip memory, faster internal bandwidth, and RAM that runs 5x faster. "

I have seen a couple of stories suggesting that the RAM and memory bandwidths are bottlnecks on the PS3. Perhaps the info I have seen isn't accurate, can you point me to a good link that nullifies some of the claims I have seen

[DJ]

PS3 games haven't been pushing physics very hard, and we all know it's simply because of unfamiliarity with optimal physics processing on the SPUs. Havok already announced that their new physics engine is pushing performance 10~15x greater than what we saw in the previous iteration. Well, they said for the PS3, but yeah. I'm sure the 360 will start showing Motorstorm-quality physics, but it will probably be behind by a lot after two or three years. The reason I say that is because when the VMX units in the Xenon CPU are active, the G5 cores are left dormant so that data can be sent back and forth. As far as I know, the 360's VMX units are very powerful; however the problem is the layout they were put into. The L2 cache is the limiting factor since it's the only form of communication between the 3 cores and to system memory.

I might as well say this too. L2 Cache has performance issues and unpredictability, but it's easy to use. The SPEs know Exactly what's in their Local Storage (just as fast as L2), but with that comes a lot of manual control, which is more time consuming. But it is superior if utilized correctly.

I'll link you here to a post by EbonySeraphim. The guys is a lot more knowledgeable than I am, and made a VERY good post about both PS3 and 360 architecture.
http://www.ps3forums.com/sh...

[PS3n360]

people who dont think this is impressive just have not had any experience with 3d modelling and rendering. I have a $5000 dual xeon rendering server that takes about 3 minutes to render just one shot using ray tracing. I know that 3d max can use linux based render slaves so this may be a really great thing for me at work. I am really excited by this and now must go do some more research and find out how hard it would be to recreate this setup at work. I believe all i would have to do is install the network render application on the ps3 running linux. this would be by far the most economical render farm for a small 3d business and would be great for coffee break deathmatches too. The list of things convincing me to buy a PS3 is getting longer by the day.

[deadeyes99]

k FORZA MOTORSPORT 2 looks better

[Annihilator]

NOT !

[lokimendivil]

So , what were seeing is 3 ps3s wooking together to make this happen. thats great but its not pactical. we need more games man!

[BIadestarX]

@TylerDurden , Well, pretty much it goes down to what people would like to believe. You seem to have extensive technical knowledge and probably programming skills which is why you are asking yourself logical questions. As programmers we kind of understand things that others rely on Sony's PR to tell them. People automatilly asume that in order for something to be powerful it must be difficult (i.e. the cell). Also they automatically asume that since the xbox 360 is relatively easier to develop than it means there is no room for improvement or try new ways. Obviously these people arent developers.

Think about it, history repeats itself. Sony did the same thing with the PS2 CPU, they always play those cards.

Others have a little more knowledge but instead lie and make their own facts as if they get pay by Sony.

Take DJ for example, "Xenon CPU memory 133KB" where the hell does he get this information? He never provides any links.

[DJ]

The Xenon CPU has 1MB of L2 cache, which is shared by 6 hardware threads (amongst 3 cores). 1MB divided by 6 threads equals an average of (yes I screwed up) 166KB of on-chip memory per thread. If you want to compare, Cell's PPE gets 512KB of memory for itself, and the SPE's get a total of 2MB of memory.

BTW, Xenon's L2 cache runs at 1.6Ghz, half the speed of the cores connected to it.

[Shaka2K6]

Cant wait for PS4 power.

[rexdriver]

This might well be great news for next gen 3D modelling or whatever, but if it takes 3 PS3s to achieve what is shown, the question is whether ray tracing is viable for creating games in the near future.

[Dogswithguns]

Whatever that means?.... I sure pround to be a PS3 owner. COOL!

[lokimendivil]

I noticed that there alot of ps3 fans on this site, including myself. more ps3 fans then 360s. I have plenty of time since im not playing my ps3, it doesnt have any games i like yet. this sucks

[Annihilator]

Synthesizers was all about hardware, now when we have more powerful CPUs they can be software emulated and exists as plugins in sequencers like Cubase etc. Will the future be the same for graphic cards when the CPUs get powerful enough to do ray tracing etc ?

[CaliGamer]

BladeStar (aka BS @ comment 30), Hahaha, has a lot of time on his hands. Probably that is why he could lovingly put together such a conglomeration of old Sony news. If he put half as much effort into getting a proper education he would have a Ph. D by now. Maybe we can start an educate BS fund and send his A$$ to Devry for some proper education.
I also agree with Smokey @ 30.1, and I would go a step further to say that to give MS any credit right now would be silly, Sony delivered the definitive an LASTING gaming experience for the past 2 generations, MS on the other hand has a spotty track record thus far.
Put it this way if Sony and MS were investors Sony would be the one that has made you Millions in the past and is diversifying your funds promising a higher rate of return, MS is the one that promised you millions and then ran off with your money. Now would I be more skeptical of Sony or MS in this situation? The trusted lender that came through every time before (Sony) or, the swindler that took my money the first time(MS)? I would have to say Sony is the right choice, MS's first romp with the XBOX was a royal F@&KUP, I have no reason to believe that when things begin to change, they won't just pack up shop again. Seems like a lot of XBOX fanatics like talking about LOGIC, but tend to not use the brain God gave them for simple logical thinking.
I guess a little success from MS (for the year they haven't had any competition, good thing too with the failure rate they were averaging) and all of a sudden all is forgotten, Sony markets a product ( just like all other companies) and the fact that they have defined the gaming experience for 2 generations is forgotten. It's all very disgusting but to each his own I guess.
But I digress, game on.

By the way, I have a new picture of Mass Effect. It's one of the key lines by one of the main characters earlier in the game, I think its a nod to all the true MS fanboys. Enjoy!!

[BIadestarX]

"Hahaha, has a lot of time on his hands. Probably that is why he could lovingly put together such a conglomeration of old Sony news."

"If he put half as much effort into getting a proper education he would have a Ph. D by now."

Actually you got close to describing what I already have.

I have a master in computer science from polytechnic University in NY.
Also have an associate in Electromechanical Eng from CityTech NY.
I have My MCSD(Microsoft Certified Solution Developer).

Though I only work 2-3 days a week I managed to make over $200,000 last year. Here is where I work http://www.componentart.com...
I'm the lead developer there. Ohh yeah I almost forgot I'm 29 years old.

Now tell me, what about you loser? What do you do for a living? Do you work? I may have lots of time but that's simply because I already did enough school you wipe my @$$ with wherever money you make in a month.

[kornbeaner]

can this process be used to make online framerates a little better?

Or can this be used to help online in anyway?

[FeralPhoenix]

OK first of all I have no idea what Ray-Tracing is....well I did watch the video, I also read every single comment and read some links about Ray-Tracing....but forgive me because it takes awhile before all the tech babble sinks in.

One thing I have learned from my "limited" knowledge or perception of this technique is that you need alot of raw CPU power to do it. From everything I have read the Cell is one hell of a CPU and I'm sure multiple Cell's can produce some great tech idea's like Ray-Tracing and other things we probably haven't seen yet depending on the capabilities and vision of the programmers/developers. However I do get the impression that this is a long way from being something that we will see done routinely if at all in games this gen. I mean I understand that this is really cool and all but honestly you do all that work just to get what looks like a "great" 3d render with lighting effects that aren't much better looking than some of the stuff we have now...at least to the lamen (me) thats pretty much all I see. -yeah, sure "IF" you understand whats going on in that pic its amazing but in real terms to the avg Joe its just a 3d render of a car...no environment and no action/movement/motion. That said I look forward to the day when this becomes practical and efficient for everyday gaming purposes.= Gameplay Graphics.

[hfaze]

This kind of news is like the big news when scientists finished mapping the human genome... Didn't mean diddly squat to your average person, but the news had HUGE potential...

The fact that this IBM rendering toolkit is able to work in a distributed manner like this could lead to some really cool breakthroughs. Using a combination of this rendering software, and something like SGI's OpenGL VizServer to stream the output to consoles in people's living rooms could be huge...

Imagine playing Madden where your PS3 (or Xbox 360, Wii, PS2, Xbox, GameCube, pretty much any console with an ethernet jack) is acting as a client. Displaying content and sending out controller input to the back-end servers doing the rendering/physics/AI work. You could put HUGE server farms on the back-end and crank out photo realistic graphics @ 60FPS. Just imagine playing a racing game, and it looking like you're watching the driver's seat view of a live Formula 1 race.

This is something that could DEFINITELY pan out in the current generation of consoles, but only as a client-server model...

With all of the game publishers and developers being so concerned about piracy, I'm HIGHLY surprised that they have not looked into something like this earlier. There would be NO WAY to pirate games running on an architecture like this (Unless you happen to have some IBM QS20 blade servers laying around your house).

Just imagine your own personal arcade in your house, where you pay-to-play (at reasonable rates) the games you want, when you want. Think of it as pay-per-view for extremely realistic games.

Now this would negate the need for high-powered game consoles, but I think that it could work out for the gaming industry and gamers in a variety of ways...

Just imagine, no more system or video RAM limitations, no more waiting on an optical drive to load the data, no more "my console is better than yours", it would truly be a level playing field, with some absolutely amazing looking (and playing) games...

This has the potential to be huge if implemented correctly...

[Icryo]

Do casual gamers know or care about Ray-Tracing? I mean i don't and i'm a hardcore gamer.

[THAMMER1]

This fits into that non gamers aspect of this group of people. This is far away from being used in a game this decade. Buy the time a game dev. finds a way to convince people to buy a game that takes this many consoles to run at once and make a profit off of it we will playing the Wii 6 in our nursing homes.

[Lex Luthor]

You guys do realise he was using 3 ps3 on a network.

[RAM MAGNUMS]

Hope and hype. All you gotta do with ps3 gamers is mess with something a lil and then recieve all the worship. lol. If this is what developers are getting paid to waste time on. its gonna be a very long time before I turn on my ps3. Next its gonna be that the leaves on trees are greener than xbox 360 capabilities. "OMG those leaves are so green and real looking, the ps3 is so powerful. Its makes all the other leaves look like regular leaves. But, these leaves are so impressive they are like looking at leaves that are green". FORZA COMING IN MAY 2007. Ps3 RAY TrAcing 2015

[dissectionalrr]

so they used 3 ps3's to accomplish something that looks no better than what we have in realtime on GT:HD and Forza 2? not impressed...