PS2 vs Dreamcast articles from 6 years ago

Will history repeat itself? 6 years ago, PS2 and Dreamcast were in almost the same state in which PS3 and 360 are now today. The very same press and media response, the exact price difference...read on, you'll be surprised.

Courtesy of nitsua of TXB.

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/q2...1026002729.htm

Quote:
When the Dreamcast launched, there weren't very many games for it. Now, some of the most impressive titles are available. The PS2 shipped with only a few dozen games. In all fairness, it does play most original Playstation games.
For this comparison, I tested a variety of games (it's a rough life being a reviewer). On the Dreamcast, I played NFL2K, Quake III Arena, Dead or Alive 2, and a very bizarre but cool game called Jet Grind Radio. On the PS2, I played SSX, Madden 2001, and Tekken Tag Tournament. Between NFL2K and the comparable Madden 2001 (both football games), there was no significant difference in graphics (actually, I enjoyed NFL2K more for its game play). Between Dead or Alive 2 and Tekken, once again, the graphics were almost too close to call. The PS2 had a slight edge, with somewhat richer backgrounds and smoother characters. The cheering/jeering crowd in the background of the PS2 was impressive - but the Dreamcast came very close to matching the rich 3D graphic fighting. SSX, probably the most popular game for the PS2 right now, was clearly better graphically than anything on the Dreamcast. While I wasn't able to test a comparable title for Dreamcast (probably Tony Hawk 2 would be closest), I did try Jet Grind Radio, a graffiti/skating game for Dreamcast (you have to see it) which has great graphics too, and better, more original game play. Overall, between the PS2 and the Dreamcast, there is not as significant a difference in graphics quality as you might expect. Sure the PS2 can handle more polygons on paper, but when you actually see games side by side, the difference is not what you'd expect given the hype ... and the price=2E "How do you explain this?" you might ask. Well, just like an Apple running faster at 450MHz than a Pentium III running at 700MHz, it's the way the system is using the processing power that matters, not just the raw numbers. You can't simply count polygons, memory, or megahertz, since each system uses its resources differently, and much of the efficiency comes from the way that programmers utilize these resources. Apparently, the PS2 is not that easy to program, while the Dreamcast has proven to be a big hit with developers. Titles for the PS2 will clearly get better in the long run, as programmers exploit more of the system's resources, but here and now, it's almost dead even.


http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/q2...1026002729.htm


Quote:
Close to the US release date of the PS2, Sony announced disappointing earnings, with operating profits down 13% as it prepares for the ramp up of Sony PS2 consoles. CNet asks the question about whether the PS2 will continue selling at such fervent levels after the initial few months. Feedbag.com has a commentary about whether the PS2 could turn into a Betamax for the console world once the Xbox hits next year.

Quote:
So, that was the news, but what's the reality of the situation? I checked at Buy.com's PS2 store page and it didn't have any PS2s available. Perhaps it was sold out, or perhaps it didn't even have any to sell. Buy was offering free shipping on it between 12:01 A.M. and 3:00 A.M., but its text message doesn't imply that it sold out.

As for eBay, there are 4,347 items found when I did a search on "Playstation 2." Systems are selling for $500 and up, with some hitting over $1,300. That's purely outrageous, as you could pay $1300 and get a computer that plays games a lot better than a crappy $300 console.


http://expn.go.com/skt/s/2000/0728/821.html


Quote:
The PS2 has already launched in Japan and posted record sales. The list of titles, while mostly lame, still are beat those available at the Japanese launch of any other system. For Americans, the only titles of note are Ridge Racer V and Street Fighter EX. Both are familiar franchises with some impressive graphics, but are they so much farther ahead of what we see on the Dreamcast now? Not even close. Launch titles or not, neither game can boast being better than their Dreamcast counterparts. Street Fighter EX, in particular, isnt even in the same league as Soul Calibur (a Dreamcast launch title). So what if the PS2 can generate more than 70 million polygons a second and has had its picture on the cover of Newsweek; certainly didnt help their developers make better games, now did it?

This brings us to the last and most important factor to consider: the ease of development for the system. The PS2 is, without a doubt, the more powerful of the two machines and will have a marketing budget behind it that Sega will never be able to match. What it doesnt have is a developer friendly reputation. Companies are already complaining that getting the PS2 to perform to its potential is a frustrating process. The Dreamcast, on the other hand, is much easier to design on, making for shorter development periods and some really impressive games. This may not seem like such a big deal, but witness the demise of the Saturn, Segas 32-bit debacle. It was much more difficult to develop for than the PlayStation and look what happened as a result? Mind you, Sega also had the momentum and consumer favor, coming off the enormous success of the Genesis; see any similarities?


http://ps2.ign.com/articles/164/164858p1.html


Quote:
Considering that Rayman 2: Revolution wasn't programmed specifically for the PlayStation 2 platform, as Criterion's RenderWare 2 was apparently used to help port the game over, it looks surprisingly good. On the downside, the game suffers from some slowdown problems that weren't apparent in the Dreamcast game, which had a rock solid 60 frames per second framerate throughout, and the quality of the grass and background textures are nowhere as detailed. While on the other hand, its overall look is as good, if not even a little bit better, than any other version of the game.

The colors used in the game have a much brighter and vibrant look to them, so much so that it seems like it might have been a clear-cut attempt by the developers to give an even more cartoonish look and feel. There are also all-new lighting effects and Rayman actually casts a realtime shadow instead of the bland circular shadow that appeared below him in his previous outings. And many of the background elements that were simple textures before are now fully realized 3D polygonal objects. It's not a groundbreaking leap forward in visual presentation, but when taken altogether is definitely a progressive step forward in the game's technical level presentation.
It's also worth noting that Rayman, himself, looks better than ever in this game than ever before. His polygonal model has much smoother edges and he appears to be more rounded and alive thanks to better texturing and lighting on his body. The differences, however, are quite minute and most people won't notice it unless they go back and forth between both versions on a switchbox. Even with the plusses, such as the brighter colors, additional 3D background objects, better looking character models, and improved lighting, one can't help but think of the Dreamcast version as the better looking of the two games. While the PS2 game might have some things that make it look a little better in certain areas, it has more graphical flaws like slowdown and seaming problems between polygons in the backgrounds. Rayman 2 looks great on PS2, but it was definitely much more polished on Dreamcast.





Via: http://www.forums.e-mpire.com/

[marcusfenix]

FANBOY ALERT! FANBOY ALERT! If anything the Ps3 will be the next dream cast. After both the ps3 and wii launch the 360 still has a 7,000,000 + unit lead and growing. The 360 will outsell the ps3 and wii this christmas and next with halo 3. The biggest franchise in gaming history!

[shysun]

LOL...MGS,Mario,Zelda,HL,Doom, Metriod and GTA say you're wrong!

[ThomasDaGamer]

That over 5 times more copies of the original mario bros. has been sold than Xbox 360s, let alone halo games.

[marcusfenix]

http://unscleric.com/Infowa...

[daboosa]

Every artical about PS3 there are xbox 360 fans doin this ^^^ why! do we do it to every xbox 360 web site NO! why you ask cause we are playing our PS3 why u weep saying ive got nothing to play! why would you by a console 4 GOW and HALO honestly Just F-OFF

also Halo isnt the biggest fancise in the world Fifa is LMFAO

[Caxtus750]

How is the 360 anything like the Dreamcast. It alreaady has a user base installed from Xbox 1. MS are funding it. 360 is getting the exclusives from Sony and LIVE is largely established as the no.1 online gaming service......... people are idiots! and yes... FANBOYS!

[InMyOpinion]

You can't compare Sega to Microsoft. Their predecessor, the Saturn, was a huge flop compared to the original Xbox. And Sega had nowhere near the amount of money that Microsoft has to put into marketing. The Dreamcast was a great machine that was'nt marketed right. The Xbox 360 is already a success...

[lalaland]

While Sega and MS can't be directly compared, Sega did already have an installed userbase from Saturn (it sold approx. 10 mill. units compared to XBox 24 mill., which isn't too bad considering the total market back then).

And the X360 is not the number one used online console -- that title still belongs to PS2, although probably not for long.

And the number of PS3 exclusives gone X360 exclusive are very few and far between -- most goes multiplatform non-exclusive.

There are many similarities between the two "next-gen" wars, but with the main difference being that MS has the financial muscle to do what it takes to become succesful (or at the least survive).

[PS360PCROCKS]

Ok I guess I was right this person is trying to say the 360 is the next dreamcast? lol Microsoft has so much money, sorry buddy the 360's going nowhere. Also, love how you guys make up stories about how the 360 will fail like the dreamcast and you expect us to not to comment on it

[SuperSaiyan4]

I think it boiled down to the controller as much as I was a Sega fan the Dreamcast controller was extremely awful.
However looking at the 360's amazing controller and comparing against the PS3 or PS1 with gyro tech pad its pretty miserable.

The 360 pad is by far the best pad ever created, best machine ever created, and best looking overall AND has a lot of support from developers. Look at all the games Sony are losing as exclusives I think that says it all really.

[lalaland]

That to me the X360 controller is useless for playing PES/WE, and I've actually bought the PS2 version as well just because of that. Now I miss the graphics instead...

Oh... And let's not forget that Sony has more firstparty developers than MS and Nintendo combined... There will be plenty of PS3 exclusives...

[DeathNote1]

ps3 just has to live up to its potential game-wise

[Anerythristic26]

To compare the Dreamcast and the 360 is pure unadulterated fanboy syndrome. First , the Dreamcast had a head start of under a million units , the 360 has 7 million. Second , Sega had huge financial trouble ( the CEO actually lent the corporation money from his personal bank account ) Microsoft has no mony problem , at all. It is actually better to compare the PS3 to the Dreamcast , honestly. MS has already been declared the winner , by many a publication and media outlet..so NO , the 360 has nothing in common with the Dreamcast.

[eloso]

mmm ps3 is a 3do for the price and ps2/1.5 for the graphics

[videl]

ps3 is very satisfieng! and ps3 will win!

[Ravenator529]

Every market gaming leader has fallen in the past as well.

Atari fell to Nintendo

Nintendo fell to Sony

so if we want to make comparisons, I guess we could eventually say

Sony falls to M$.

Anyway,

You can't compare the 360 to Dreamcast.

For starters, you can't compare M$ to Sega.
Not to mention that there was almost zero third party support for the Dreamcast.

Plus you have some of the huge gaming companies such as Capcom, Konami, and Ubisoft all backing the 360.

There are probably more games available for the 360 as of now, then there ever was for the Dreamcast.

[lalaland]

The Dreamcast did have:

Dead or Alive, NBA2K, Quake III, Half Life, Crazy Taxi, Soul Calibur and Grand Theft Auto 2

It did have support from the major Japanese publishers like Sega (obviously), Capcom and so forth...

And there are actually more than 290 games out there for it... a bit more than what are out there for the X360 (or the PS3 for that matter).

It did sell a total of 10,6 mill. consoles in a smaller market than today.

It did have a predecessor, like the X360 does, that was only mildly succesful (Saturn: 10 mill. sold, XBox 24 mill. sold).

The only thing they didn't have: the bottomless pockets of MS...

[Madmax1281980]

i had a dreamcast and loved it but what it was missing was developers like ea, thq, ubisoft, and to be honest most of the games where ports from ps1 with improved graphix. sega has always had less developer support. to be hones if nintendo had made their n64 a cd based console i think that the ps wouldnt be where it is right now.

[BIadestarX]

What kill Sega was not the system but their marketing strategy and the internal management of the company. You can hate Microsoft as much as you want, but one thing is certain Microsoft do know how to sell a product. And they are very determined to conquer what they seek. What make anyone think that Microsoft will quit now when they are about to make the 360 a chicken that lay golden eggs? If you don't believe me then explain why Linux is not the #1 OS even though Linux is free and windows is not? Explain why this website was developed using asp.net (created by Microsoft) and not perl or CGI? The fact is that most of the product Microsoft make always take a big chunk of the market share. So, for all the Microsoft haters out there; I don't recommend you hold your breath for too long hoping for the 360 to discontinue.

[lalaland]

People have grown dependant on MS technologies during a period of more than 20 years. Linux is free, but it is also less enduser friendly and has less viable choices for consumer and business applications.

Not much of a mystery there... Linux does slowly gain marketshare though.

Regarding web-development, more than half the webservers out there are not Windows servers. And a lot of webdevelopment is done in platform agnostic languages like PHP, Java and JavaScript.

You mention MS always get a big marketshare, no matter what they set their minds on. Is that why their marketshare in MP3-players is dwindling?

Actually MS makes more misses than actual hits, and when they usually make a hit, it is often because of what is later judged as unfair business practices. Sometimes it's because of vast amounts of cash put into the project, simply economically squezing their competitors...

This however, doesn't hinder them from having a potential hit with the X360 on their hands... Let's see in a couple of years...

[Bhai]

...at what PS2 has provided today...all good, making the game-industry standards, e.g. god of war, Colossus, Tekken 5, FF-XII, the beautiful Gran Turismo 4, Soul Calibur 3, Rogue Galaxy, Devil May Cry series, MGS series, Okami, Ratchet, Jak, Primal and what not !!!, selling over 100 mill. worldwide, especially 40 mill. in America alone, and considering those articles that appeared 6 years from now...its so obvious how Sony plans, and brings raw innovation to the industry. Literally, reading these articles today had me fully understand their strategy and risen Sony's trust bar even farther, for if we take history into account, not even a hair-load has been wasted this time around...Just Awesome !!!

[power of Green]

An $600 console that has less to offer & little thrird party support plus no exclusives isn't going to "dream cast" any other console out of the industry but itself. lol

[power of Green]

You Sony fanboy's are idiots if you think this is a PS2 vs DreamCast repeat. lol You guy's are starting to dig some stupid sh*t in response to the 360 owning the PS3.

[power of Green]

Stop living in the past you PS-trolls.

[Tut]

How do you still have bubbles?

The mods here suck something fierce.

[Scrumptious]

"Oh... And let's not forget that Sony has more firstparty developers than MS and Nintendo combined... There will be plenty of PS3 exclusives..."
I'd like to see some proof of your claim, as I find this hard to believe. And don't count second party developers either.

[lalaland]

I might have exagerated a bit, but it's paraphrasing a quote from Phil Harrison. Anyways, here is what I've dug up just to please you...

"With over 1100 employees in 11 countries"... Here's a list of subsidiaries for SCEA (of which all do console games):

Clap Hanz
Polyphony Digital
SCE Japan Studio (includes Team ICO, Team Siren, etc.)
Incognito Entertainment
Naughty Dog
SCE Bend Studio (formerly Eidetic)
SCE Foster City Studio (includes 989 Studios)
SCE San Diego Studio (includes 989 Sports)
SCE Santa Monica Studio
Sony Online Entertainment LLC.
Zipper Interactive
Guerrilla Games
SCE Cambridge Studio (formerly Millennium Interactive)
SCE London Studio (includes Team Soho and Camden)
SCE Studio Liverpool (formerly Psygnosis)
Sony Computer Entertainment Korea

Here is a list of MS subsidiaries (of which not all do console games):

ACES Game Studio
Bungie
Ensemble
FASA Interactive
Lionhead
Rare
Turn 10
Wingnut Interactive

I couldn't find a list for Nintendo, as they don't differentiate between their gaming division and sales subsidiaries on their website.

Most sources are from Wikipedia...

[LegendaryMark]

Anyone has to admit, there are SOME similarities, however I would say there are more differences. Many (such as the small headstart and the 3rd party support) have already been commented on, but I would say the biggest difference would be that the Dreamcast was ahead of its time, especially with its online package (I had a Dreamcast but no broadband). Now I have broadband and can get a heck of a lot more out of my Xbox 360. It's the proliferation of broadband that is the big issue, as online is the one area where Microsoft are undisputed champions.

[mellowspaz]

You know, before purchasing a 360 a month ago, I was thinking of this exact dreamcast scenario (since I bought a dc and a ps2) and deciding whether or not a ps3 would be worth the price, but I realized a couple of things make these comparisons invalid.

1) Microsoft has deep pockets
2) There is no Halo on dreamcast (no games that were system sellers except maybe soul calibur. Still, no dreamcast game could sell 2.5 million copies in one day)
3) Gears of War already looks better than any ps3 games on day one as well and similar games being superior i.e. online and graphics (call of duty 3, tony hawk).

I may get a ps3 in the future, but this is definitely not the dreamcast era

[lalaland]

You've missed the point.

"3) Gears of War already looks better than any ps3 games on day one as well and similar games being superior i.e. online and graphics (call of duty 3, tony hawk)."

That was exactly what happened back in the Dreamcast/PS2 days as well. Crossplatform PS2-launch titles were more solid and better looking on the Dreamcast, and the Dreamcast had online functionality.

"Still, no dreamcast game could sell 2.5 million copies in one day"

No games on X360 has sold 2.5 million copies in one day...

And on a sidenote, how can anybody possibly in their right mind have voted disagree on my #11.1 comment -- those are all undeniable facts, not opinions....

[DJ]

the truth is a little hard for them to accept.

[Killer Cop]

PlayStation won that era, and so will it be this time.

End of case.

[AudioRage]

ahem.. cop on

[gokuss122002]

first of all, the only real differences between the 360/xbox controllers and the Dreamcast controllers are:
1.(in the case of the 360's)DC don't have L1&R1
2. the right analog stick is missing on the DCC
3. 360/xbox dont have window for VMU (that was so cool)

really besides those it is practically the same controller, which shows your fanboyism

Also (somewhat of a recap)

Dreamcast = rushed console out, granting them a one year headstart

Xbox360 = rushed console out, granting them a one year headstart

dreamcast's predecessor was a BIG BLACK BOXLIKE CONSOLE, while it (dreamcast)is a SMALLER WHITE console

Xbox360's predecessor was a BIG BLACK BOXLIKE CONSOLE, while it (Xbox360)is a SMALLER WHITE console

[GEV1L]

You missed the biggest factor that determined that the ps2 dominated the dreamcast especially in North America: No support from EA. Love them or hate them, EA made and broke the deramcast with their support. They were also weak with support for the first xbox -not as many games and no live support- until M$ stopped making sports games that competed with EA. On top of this the amount that M$ sold with the first xbox is still a feat if you take into consideration the amount of cynicism and criticsim they took for deciding to enter the market in the first place as many refused to entertain the notion of buying one because it as from M$. And no while there was not one game right now that will sell 2.5 mil copies on the first day it is almost assured that Halo 3 will(many people that are halo fans have not bought a 360 yet because they are waiting for halo 3 to come out to get one, dont ask me why as i think that game is overrated but whatever}, so there are quite a few factors that differentiate this round of console wars from the last. Also since you mentioned m$ deep pockets, another difference from last gen and this gen is that sonys pockets are quite a bit lighter than they were last time around. IN the end it is us the gamers who win anyways.

[DJ]

The parallels are very eerie.

[Daewoodrow]

Bringing up the fall of the dreamcast makes most nostalgic gamers more annoyed than anything, it doesn't earn support for the PS3. The dreamcast was a great console, a far greater console than the PS2, but back then Sega was on a precipice. Quite simply, Sony pushed them off it.

Plus, the dreamcast team made the fatal error of trying to gain consumer interest by stuffing it up to its gizzards with modern technology. The lesson here, is that you should never have to explain to a customer why they should buy your product. The best products are sold to a customer within 20 seconds of it being shown to them.

[Phytonadione]

"The best products are sold to a customer within 20 seconds of it being shown to them"
Is that how you "shop" in the red-light district? Just kidding:)

[rexdriver]

Why draw parallels on a superficial level without examining the underlying conditions that caused PS2 to prevail over Dreamcast?

I don't see any signs of developers not making games for Xbox360 (like in the case of Dreamcast) - in fact quite the opposite. Frankly, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if even Final Fantasy hops over to 360 next year, especially if Blue Dragon has a good showing in Japan and Sony continues to have shortages for an extended period of time. And we all know that it is ultimately the games that make or break a console.

In fact, if there's a logical analogy to be drawn, it is the fact that Sega was in financial trouble back then and did not have the means to sustain the prolonged console competition. Sony, I hear, is not exactly at the top of their game right now and is in fact losing a lot of money on PS3.

I think we ought to pull back from fanboism and look at the hard facts from a business world perspective. I have no doubt that Xbox360 and Wii will do well. I am not ruling out PS3, but at this juncture the forecast just isn't good. Sony better pray hard that Blu-ray takes off.

[kornbeaner]

Both systems are gonna be here for a long time and we can go and compare system to system and feature to feature. But like history, trends are being followed that just might make this story more of a prediction then an acutal look back in time. MS cannot be touched in online play and thats a give in. Yes they were first in the market and yes they do have installed base from their previous console. But MS like Sony rushed their machines so that the other would not have their advantage taken from them.
MS gave developers a powerful machine that makes games like Gears of War possible, quicker. But by the same token they released a machine that is very much equipped with power for maybe a 3yr run. The power is right there right now and developers know how to tap into it. But the DVD-9 format much like Sega GD-Rom format, is gonna leave developers with not enough space on a disc for the long run. While the PS3 might be "overpriced" it's a machine with the future in mind. High-Def High capcity storage medium in Blu-ray. HDD's that can be replaced at any given time without having to wait for a sony HDD. An OS that has been proven to give outstanding graphics with less "on paper" power. You cant go wrong with either machine and hate sony if you will, they also have a installed base of over 100 million that is not gonna be flipped that easy. MS will more then likly run the show for at least 2 more yrs. but slowly but surely just like in the past, I bunch of game on MS will start to look the same, while developer tweak with the PS3's OS and specs to make games look a little better year after year.

[rexdriver]

I don't think there's anything wrong with PS3's hardware performance. I just think that Sony's strategy (or lack of it) thus far has gone quite wrong, and that might cause irrepairable damage.

[Karibu]

Peter Moore was captain of sinking Dreamcast =)

It's no coincidence, it's fate.

[gh0st]

Here's my perspective if xbox360 represents dreamcast and ps3 represents... well ps2...
If you look at dreamcast to ps2, ps2 had better graphics, and stability even though it was being compared to launched titles to dreamcast's developed over time games. If you look at Xbox 360 games which was developed over time compared to Ps3 launch games, Xbox 360 games creams ps3 games in looks and stability (read too many reviews saying that ps3 games have too many bugs and unstablity). So in conclusion I'm saying that dreamcast is ps3 and ps2 is 360... if you really want to compare dreamcast and ps2 to 360 and ps3...

[DJ]

but I remember a majority of the PS2 launch titles looking bad/horrid. Evergrace alone brings to mind some really bad memories, hehe. And yet people still wanted it! Just when you think consumers are predictable they throw yet another curveball at ya.

[MicroGamer]

The reason people played games like Evergrace and Summoner on PS2 was because at the time there were no better RPG's available, so they took what they could get.

[FKN Unbelievable]

Sega abandoned to many machines for Disastrous upgrades(32x,Sega CD)that game companies wanted no parts of without trust. Sega dreamcast never Had a DVD built in and support from major 3rd party developers. Especially EA when they were the only things smoking in sports(Even 2k was just starting to shine.)cause thatwhat did to them.

[Ark1205]

Both of these systems are great and niether is going anywhere. U cats are so funny to me arguing about which is the best. Both are good and just going to depend on which system you your a fan of. U guys need to grow up!

[Truth]

"You can't simply count polygons, memory, or megahertz, since each system uses its resources differently, and much of the efficiency comes from the way that programmers utilize these resources."

Each console has it's advantages, but it's ultimately up to the developers which console grows and becomes the strongest in terms of graphics and gameplay.

[MicroGamer]

I was one of the ones who waited for PS2 to come out to buy a console during that generation, but I also bought a DC when the price point reached 99.99. It seems to me, that when SEGA designed this thing, they were clearly trying to build a better N64. The look and feel of many of the games, particularly games like Evolution The World of Sacred Device, left me feeling I was playing a Mario or Zelda title with a combat element similar to Final Fantasy thrown in. Sega did the same thing as Nintendo and made a machine that was only good for games while Sony and Microsoft were making machines that could do so much more. Both SEGA and Nintendo needed to be setting their sights a lot higher than merely improving on the N64 back then.