Torchlight's Max Schaefer on Retail Games: "Kill them with fire"

"What are you looking forward to most in 2012 from an industry standpoint? What should the industry do better in 2012?"

"'I look forward to the end of boxes and disks. Kill them with fire for all I care. The retail market has historically starved developers and narrowed the market for available games. Now we need to take advantage of services like Steam with innovative pricing, business models, and games.' ”

[christheredhead]

I understand his opinion from a developers point of view, but I still disagree. I like downloading games, but I won't be gaming if I don't have the option of purchasing a box and disc.

An all digital collection just doesn't appeal to me. I mean, were still very very far from that happening, but just saying. Having one option to access games would be terrible. Developers should be taking advantage of Steam regardless of retail. It wouldn't really help any developer/company for the retail market to die.

[fluffydelusions]

"I mean, were still very very far from that happening"

But how far really? Digital accounts for something like 70% of PC games so really it's only a matter time before the trend hits consoles full on.

[christheredhead]

Definitely. I mean, I don't see it happening next gen at least. So we've got another 10+ years minimum till its even an option on consoles.

Digital download is pretty much the way to go on PC though with pre loading and day 1 cheaper prices. That would be a tough transition to directly relate to the console market. I like having the option to go either route, but I just don't want to be funneled in to download only. It works great on PC, but download prices on console are grossly inflated by about 80 to 90 percent. Thats one thing that needs to be worked out first if they expect more people to jump on board.

Secondly, its a console. They would have to make some major adjustments to make it free form. I'm open to the idea, just don't see it happening soon. Maybe 2 generations down the line. Also, having an entire gaming collection is more of a mental thing for me. I dont care so much on PC about having the box, but I dont trade my games and having thousands of game discs and boxes is awesome. Collecting/having physical copies and playing those copies are on equal levels. Kind of weird, but I grew up purchasing games, reading manuals and staring at cases haha. Not something I would want to abandon personally.

I would not buy a console that doesn't support physical media. At that point, I would just go PC only. It would be cool though if it were more similar to PC with what I mentioned. Heck, I would probably buy at lot more games day 1 if they came with a discount and the ability to pre load.

[ApplEaglElephant]

Retailers are taking away good amount of profit that could go into sequel or new IP development which results in less games overall in the market.

[BDSE]

I will stop gaming when I can't buy physical disks.

[Saladfax]

Good riddance?

I suppose you're voting with your money, which is fine, but if you're this afraid of technology, I might suggest joining some kind of Amish community.

[BDSE]

@Saladfax

Way to miss the point mate.

DRM, lack of control over what I do with my purchases, inability to lend my games to my friends and no way of renting all suggest that the download only model is designed, not with the consumer in mind, but with the publisher as the primary beneficiary. If the market goes download only, I'll find a different hobby and the same goes for movies as well.

Of course if you're happy to bend over and take one from the publishers, be my guest. After all its only your (parents) money that's being fleeced from you.

[christheredhead]

@Saladfax

Yah, I think the whole concept went way over your head. Whos afraid of tech? I'm ok with it, just console prices for downloadable games are terrible. Some games are full price when they can be bought for 15 dollars. Doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to be downloading games if thats the case.

I have no problem with it, it just takes me forever to download full games. I just wouldn't want it to be my one and only option. Choice is better for me as a gamer, not limited options.

[tmoss726]

I think the only reason this could happen on consoles if they don't charge an arm and a leg for hard drives. Hard drives on PCs are really cheap now a days, but people who have the older PS3s and Xbox 360s would be out of luck cause they had less then 100 GB, especially when most games are around 8-10 GB average.

[SilentNegotiator]

"Retailers are taking away good amount of profit"

They increase the game's exposure by a mile. Advertisements, shelf space, easy access....

You know, it's just like so many silly bands these days that think they'll make WAAAY more money by not putting their songs on iTunes or not signing with a record company, but instead selling CDs on their no-name website and singing in random gigs in London bars.

[MostJadedGamer]

Console games are still all about retail, and will continue to be all out retail for a long time. The time that consoles move to digital is still a very long way away.

[Saladfax]

There are already plenty of digital distribution models which work better than retail by a long shot. More exposure for devs, more profit for devs, way better content pricing, and better customer service.

Just because PSN and XBL don't have it, doesn't mean it doesn't/won't exist. The company that embraces it first is going to have a massive leg-up in the future. Just look at Steam's insanely large market share of digital PC sales.

Finally, who cares if you can't rent or loan when the damn game is 5 dollars to own forever?

[Persistantthug]

They got their start at BLIZZARD, whose every single main game has sold at BricK & Mortar retail.

If it wasn't for that, these ingrates wouldn't even have any experience or a pot to piss in.

[Saladfax]

Yeah, how dare they embrace emerging technology which allows for greater flexibility, cheaper production costs, and more opportunities for smaller companies to make a profit without the need for massive financial backing.

How dare they not kiss the feet of massive retail companies who couldn't care less about them?

Geez, these entitled whining people, making their entertainment products and not giving away all of their money to people who are already rich. They should be ashamed.

[ghaleon1980]

You're joking right? Listen, just because you lack the awareness and understanding of the market that this guy is invoking doesn't mean you need to call him an "a-hole."

Please, lets see what some of you guys are saying 3 years from now.

[OhMyGandhi]

what terrifies me is that although I like the idea of leveling the playing field, and allowing developers to push their ideas to a larger audience, with the added convenience of simply being online to receive a game, I worry that then developers will find ways (well, specifically large development companies) to further exploit their franchises by nickel and diming us with DLC.

Because, as it stands, we are in the weird "not pay to play" but rather a more "pay to play...with more than just the pistol and shotgun the game gave you, with better armor or more maps or modes so you can actually -get- into a game with a friend or two".

It's odd because as games become increasingly social, and micro-transactions become the near norm, developers will begin to give more "content" post game release and then explain to us how bob, phil and margaret worked on this section, and it wont be ready by the game's release date, so pony up 15 dollars and you've got everything, and you can call yourself a true fan and supporter of said franchise.

It's damned frightening to ponder just how fair developers will be once that said release date passes, and content continues to eek out days later.

[MostJadedGamer]

I only buy retail games. If you either cann't or won't release your game as a retail release then its not worth even caring about as far as I am concerned

[Pokemon_Master]

hes just another insecure western indie dev.......

[Mythicninja]

Amen, digital is better for the small guy

[R1CAN617]

Digital means being able to carry and hold on to your games, example PSP to PSV guys who got boxed copys had to re buy them plus digital also means less clutter and easier access.

[Menashe]

I think it might come as a surprise to everyone when they see at E3 how Nintendo will have shifted in the importance they give to digital downloads on the Wii U. Possibly even more than retail games.

[Somebody]

It's great that Runic is thinking ahead but they really shouldn't be harsh about retail. I mean, THAT is how I got my copy of Torchlight. Moving to a new media and dissing the old reminded me too much of the days when id and Epic migrated to the consoles - holding the Finger to PC gamers while doing so. If you want to leave something, just leave. No need to be a dick about it.

There are some people who still cherish the boxed copies. Like me. Main reason is that I really don't have a credit card or a Paypal account. Don't fret about it. I'm going to get one soon. I know the joys of easily moving my Steam folder around without the bother of installing the whole game library into another PC. Just cop, paste and reinstal Steam.

I did got a digital copy of Portal 2. The game was 12GB in size and took me 20 hours to download. I remembered the half an hour to one hour times of instal time through traditional DVDs that people used as reason to shun PC but now it's OK to wait a whole day before playing.

I fully support digital distribution but killing physical media is not really a good idea. Not with today's internet speed (well, in my place anyway) and the increasing size of games. It'll be like when the US ditched the guns when designing the F4 Phantoms and sent their pilots to Vietnam with first gen Sidewinders.

[mandeep1803]

I went all digital when I built my gaming system last year. Don't think I am going back to physical medium at all. Steam is just plain makes my life easier. I don't need to worry about going to retail stores.

[Saladfax]

I always enjoy the fact that I rarely pay more than $5 for games which are quite good.

[Kran]

"I look forward to the end of boxes and disks"

You'll get that when the world ends.

Boxed games wont ever end. Developers should realise this. Its not all about downloading games from the internet you know because the internet can be soooooooooooooooooo slow depending on the person. Some people dont even have the internet.

Oh and have you seen the overly priced games on XBLM/PSN compared to their price in retail?

[wicko]

Have you seen steam prices?

[Kran]

hence why I didnt mention Steam.

I was referring solely to console games.

[wicko]

True, but what I'm trying to say is it can be done right. I wonder how successful steam's method is compared to PSN/XBL methods. If ridiculous sales have been helping Valve/publishers/developers then it's only a matter of time before everyone adjusts.

[Kran]

You know for a fact Sony and Microsoft wont ever be like Valve. They care too much about money and try to get it the easy way. Steam does it the hard way but it pays off.

[BDSE]

I will never buy a download only console, I want my boxed games and I want my disks.

[DigitalRaptor]

Oh yeah! That's realistic, Mr. Torchlight Developer.

I love the thought of taking the time to download MGS4 (50GB) and Uncharted 3 (35GB) and comfortably storing that and hundreds of other large sized games on a hard drive.

Just because it's a great model for your games and your peers, doesn't mean removing that option from others who enjoy the physical medium is a good idea. Nothing beats owning, holding and examining something you've bought, in my opinion.

[sennderF]

But you have to realize it's a lot faster downloading 50GB than having the publisher mass-producing and transporting million of copies throughout the world.

Also, those 50GB of MGS4 is a LOT of repeated content (if it were released digitally it would probably be around 25GB) which is due to the slow BluRay-player in the PS3. It can't read information from two different locations at the same time and hence the repeated content. In terms of reading data (in videogames), BluRay is pretty horrible. Great for movies though.

[wicko]

Yeah technology will stand still. We'll never see faster speeds or faster hardware or larger disk sizes.

You do realize he said he is "looking forward to" this happening, meaning in the future, not this very second?

[hano]

I think it will be a sad day when that happens.

I buy most of my PC game digitally, but when I do happen to find a retail copy I buy that first.

[sennderF]

It's an inevitable evolution, get used to it.

[kesvalk]

i would love to see the entire industry turn digital, nothing beats having all your games organized and almost ready to play whenever you want, no need put serials, no need to worry about saves, nothing.

and because it cut a lot of costs, it almost comes cheaper too...

[OhReginald]

Looks like some people here don't like going out to the store and socializing with real people.

funny when i see shit games on any digital store that cost 3x more than the physical copy.

[sennderF]

Yeah, because we all know buying games in a videogame store is the definition of "socialize".

[NewVegasTroop]

i look a physical vs digital media like this, imagine if your friends (or any one you try to impress) go to your place and and looks at your gaming collection, what is more impressive? a shelf of games, or a 1TB hard drive??? i think the answers is obvious, i would feel shame to show a hard drive...

[Nitrox]

I get ya, but I live in a small apartment, and saving space is important to me.

I for one feel no shame showing off my 200+ game collection in Steam's grid view which I have up most of the time on my second monitor

[Saladfax]

We also know how important in life it is to show off your video game collection =\

[Nitrox]

lol Saladfax, gotta stretch the old e-penis far as it'll go!

[The_Nameless_One]

I like having hard copies. I like the way they feel. I like the way they look on the shelf I built for them. I like the way a disk feels and smells the first time I open them. How about I also burn all my vinyl collection while we're at it. This guy needs to take that stick out of it ass.

[banjadude]

I wholeheartedly agree. Also, it's fun to show your friends and family your collection. What better way to get some of them into gaming, or to get them into a specific title?

My best friend, I got him into the Medal of Honor series (back when it was only on PC) that way, then he eventually grew fond of all FPS.

[DW74]

This download-only world people are so jazzed about will only ensure that I walk away from it. I don't know who your ISP is, but my speeds are marginal(12MB in) when compared to the rest of the country. And my monthly cap is 50GB. A download-only gaming/movie world couldn't feasibly happen until the state of the internet in the US is greatly improved.

And don't forget to mention storage. We're talking about virtually unlimited media, but finite storage space. Talk about terabyte storage drives all you want, but how many will the average consumer want lying around? Gonna keep swapping them in and out in your Xbox 720 or your PS4 as you play this game or watch that movie on the other drive?

How about cost? Why do so many digital-only games seem to cost the same as physical copies? Where are the savings from no disc/box/distribution? Obviously not referring to Steam, as their sales are awesome. But I have seen newer games still debut for $60 on Steam. Why?

No, there are still sticking points to this download-only world. But I *do* believe that one day down the road, it will indeed happen. But the foundation must be laid for that world.

[barb_wire]

Good luck going all digital when ISP's especially here in the US are or will be in the near future begin throttling bandwidths.. see how long it takes you just to download a 2GB demo when your ISP throttles your bandwidth to a quarter of it's advertised speed. As for full games 7-30GB in size - well, good luck with that..

I can only imagine what size games are going to be next gen..

[StayStatic]

I imagine retailers will offer a download service where they can put your games on some form of solid state media registered your to your console / account.

[maelstromb]

Just like we will never completely see physical books go away in favor of their digital counterparts, we will also never see videogames head entirely in that direction either. The majority of people will ALWAYS want something tangible because we associate more of a value in tangible things. We also feel like we "own" that tangible object. We like to display our tangible things. And we all know, we cannot display things in the digital landscape, save for our achievements/trophies.

Digital objects, while convenient, simply represent but another option available to us consumers, and I believe that it will remain that way regardless of Steam's or Origin's popularity. Is selling digitally more cost conducive for the developer and publisher? Yes, of course - there is no physical production cost, no inventory and no overhead. But until game publishers/developers can convince the vast majority of us that digital is BETTER and overall more worthwhile than owning a physical copy, nothing will change. End of discussion.

[Awesome_Gamer]

No retail games will never happen.. There are stil some people out there who dont have internet connection or doesn connect thei console to the internet

[murkster-dubez]

People love to talk about amazing steam pricing but unless its a sale, they are often more expensive than buying a disc and box anyways.

[juegosmajicos]

No they aren't. They are NEVER, as far as my experience goes, more expensive than buying a disc and a box. Sometimes they are equal (mostly new releases from EA, Ubisoft, and Activision), but never higher, and in fact they quickly go back down. Dead Space 2, for example, went down from $60 to $40 within a month or two, then to $20, and during sales to $5.

Buying on Steam is almost guaranteed to be cheaper every time, unless your retail purchases are always during sales (newegg, etc), in which case they still don't compare to only buying Steam on sale.

[murkster-dubez]

Yes they are. Skyrim is currently £34.99 on steam however its £29.54 on amazon. so obviously its no where near guaranteed.

[juegosmajicos]

One example cannot account for the word "often".

[Silly gameAr]

Why can't both co-exist, you know, like they've been doing this whole time? I wouldn't mind hearing some other people in the gaming industry's opinions, one's that actually release retail games.

I'm willing to bet their opinions would be a bit different.

[snp]

Terrific if you're in a country where they don't price gouge, a disaster if you're not. Ever tried buying a Steam, say Activision game from Australia? Charge double what US customers are charged. Only way Australians can get a fair go more often than not is importing boxed copies from overseas.

[SicilianGunner]

you want to go digital then no more gaming for me because 5-20gbs download a game hurts my download cap and if i go over i gotta pay alot more

[Robotronfiend]

Discs save me much HDD space, especially on consoles and they have some resale value.

[hazelamy]

now i need to make sure i never buy one of their games ever again.

[Kidmyst]

Basically this guy wants to churn our $5.00 games like Angry Birds. I prefer physical media over digital downloads but do download alot of games. If given a choice I'll take Physical over digital everytime especially when the price is the same. I just don't see paying $60 for a game to digital download when I can get the same on disc, with a case, and booklet plus maybe more. When I am done the game goes on a shelf and when I feel like playing again I pop it in and play. VS redownloading it just to play a bit.

[phantomexe]

That couldn't of been said better. agree 100%

[ninavoljic]

When that day arrives, torchlight will already be in the dust.

[Saryk]

They are not the only ones screaming this. Used games are under attack, EA launched their Origin and it is doing good. It is a matter of time before everything is digital download and it should, waste of resources.

[phantomexe]

I'll always want a hard copy first. I don't mind games like caste crashers,lost winds beiing download only but for bigger games no way.

[Dugstar]

The statement about Digital titles is fine for some..if you have the infrastructure in your country to cope with actually Downloading games with in a reasonable time.

A lot of country's are still stuck in the stone age and even here in the UK many places are still stuck on 2MB connections..

A lot of people will read this as and say well buy a better connection.. well many of us UK gamers would if the company s would actually update there equipment at exchanges but many don't so many people get ripped off.

I much prefer physical format.. sitting reading a manual on the journey home and a "collection" of games is always viable for some of us.

[Incipio]

Anything done purely relying upon business perspective is doomed to fail.

[HaVoK308]

"historically starved developers"

What fucking bullshit. It has become utterly sickening watching Publishers and Developers play the fucking victim. They somehow think they are more entitled then everyone else in the World. Hey...just like most Gamers. Go figure.

[urwifeminder]

Cds are still kicking in shops music downloads didnt kill the market hurt it yes kill no,what happens to video game collectors put a usb drive on your shelves.