Next Xbox GPU Akin to the Radeon HD 6670

Xbox 720 Will Be Six Times as Powerful as Current Gen
Sources confirm fall 2013 release, detail graphics processing power.

[Motorola]

...That's it? I had a HD 6670 and it was good, but not amazing. It's a good entry level GPU, but won't be 60 FPS 1080p in much except COD.

[vortis]

I thought they were going for Xfired cards?

I still have Xfired 5770s they can run the latest and greatest on the highest settings with DX11 turned all the way up.

I imagine two 6670s will tide MS over for the next four years or so, which should buy them enough time to start up Cloud services as an alternative for staying relevant in the [3D]HD arena.

[C_Menz]

Why would the put in 2 gpu's? It would generate twice as much heat, use twice as much power(increasing their psu cost, and make the console much larger.

I think when the next set of consoles are released many will be disappointed. If they release this year their gpu's will not surpass the level of a gtx 580 and be closer to a gtx 560ti due to costs. However if they wait until 2013/14 they will be able to use a much better gpu.

[nondecaf]

@c_menz Those GPUs are small and could be akin to radeon's mobility series in power consumption,I think they should be based on atleast 6770 or6750 because two would have the same specs as the high end 5800 series.

[vortis]

@C_Menz

nondecaf is right, my two 5770s run better and consume less power than my one 4850.

AMD has done a superb job of cutting down energy consumption and heat output in their mid-ranged cards.

Not to mention, you can get two 6670s for the price of one GTX 560ti if you shop around. Also, Crossfired HD 6670s outperform a single GTX 560ti every time in the benchmarking tests.

It's a very smart, affordable and viable choice for MS if they decided to go that route.

[gamingdroid]

It's all about smart engineering by balancing the system and always keeping it busy.

Two 6670's will increase "initial" yields which often plauges launches, and they can later be combined for cost reduction.

It shouldn't use much more power than a single chip of equal computing power to the two.

That said, this is a rumor... but bring the next generation on! I cannot wait!!!

[milohighclub]

20% more than the wii u, so about 70% more than ps3 and 6x more powerful than the 360.....

Let's hope Sony are aiming higher...

[AKS]

I don't see them doing a Crossfire setup. Too much heat, power demands, and cost for a console. It wouldn't be practical or affordable.

[ProjectVulcan]

6 times as fast. 6670. Microsoft must be trying to build a fairly cheap machine then. 360 and PS3 were easily 10+ times faster than their predecessors not forgetting 360 in particular benefitted from a wonderful toolset compared to what Ps2 had. 6670 isn't really 6 times faster either TBH, its more like 4 times or so. Realistically 4 times, not just because they almost certainly wouldn't use the sort of clockspeeds the part in PC would run.

This is actually fairly weaker than expected. No matter what anyone says about consoles being more efficient than the same part inside a PC, this is true, but 6670 is nowhere near fast enough to dish out 1080p native games and offer up a significant jump over what PS3 and 360 can do. It just doesn't possess the memory bandwidth or fillrate- Less than a quarter the pixel shading performance of even a cheap 6870 and less than half the bandwidth!

You'll get a jump in 720p, but if moving to this generation means moving to 1080p natively as most people want, 6670 just isn't fast enough for a leap- not on the level seen from xbox to 360. A step forward but no revolution. The thing would struggle to manage Battlefield 3 on maximum PC settings @ 1080p even with all the optimisation advantages the consoles have.

Even if this thing launches end of this year, it'll be massively outdated. Sony could go with a midrange GPU from the EXISTING Nvidia lineup (i.e a 560), and it would obliterate Microsoft's new machine if that had a 6670 class part in it.

This is besides the fact a new GPU generation is coming from Nvidia inside the next 3 months.

[Statix]

@C_Menz: I would be happy if the next Xbox had a GTX 560 ti. It's a decent card, and console developers can do a lot with limited hardware due to optimization. Just look at what devs have accomplished w/ the PS3 and its antiquated 7800 GTX.

If the PS4 does release later, I certainly hope it does a lot better than an HD 6670. Even a GTX 560 ti would be a lot better.

----------------

Michael Pachter said that Microsoft wasn't planning for a truly next-gen console, but rather a beefed-up Xbox 360 that can run Windows 8. Maybe this HD 6670 is just for the interim, beefed-up 360. Anyone here give any credence to Pachter's speculation>

[morganfell]

Statix, true they did a lot with the GPU. But with a console you can't compare GPUs in a vacuum. You have to consider the CPU to which they are mated. Particularly so with the PS3 since it is common to dump of processes, such as lighting, onto one of the Cell's SPUs.

Remember, the Cell was partially designed from GPU architecture. This is why it number crunches data rapidly and why it easily handles matters which require massive calculations such as certain lighting techniques. I remember the first time we saw a Cell handle Vertex Lighting and we were astounded.

[fear88]

This makes me think that Sony might be right in holding off on their next console.

In fact maybe Sony's full focus on the Vita may pay off seeing as how close the graphics will be between the PS3, 360, PC, and the Vita.

I just don't see a reason for a new Sony console at this point if the vita and the PS3 are so close and the leap from 360 and Next Xbox is so minuscule.

[SugarSoSweet]

Where did the article state they were using crossfire? I couldn't see it....

[decrypt]

Poor console gamers going to pay 400usd for tech that is outdated way before it launched.

Wake up console gamers, a 150usd GPU will outperform that piece of trash hardware. Any quad core PC you got at home equipped with a 150usd GPU will significantly outperform this.

[NewMonday]

if Sony uses a new Kepler card with a better 32 core cell that would really be something.

[T900]

Console gaming = having no options, basically you rely on a company to setup hardware as they see fit. It may be old tech and they may charge a premium for it, however theres nothing you can do about it. You just have to bend over and purchase whatever they deem fit for you.

Will be funny though if the Xbox 720 is launched with this hardware and then is marketed as next gen lol. Sadly most consolers will even think the hardware is new tech.

[BattleAxe]

PS4 to out perform the XBOX 720.....Confirmed.

[Disccordia]

Why are people sounding so disappointed? The gpus in current consoles were two years old when they released and they are still going strong a further six years on. This is going to be better than the WiiU which developers have said is already quite beefy (for a console).

You cannot make direct comparisons.

[sikbeta]

"Bu... but... we don't need next-gen consoles"

Bring it on MS!

[Sobari]

Keep in mind that these GPUs are vastly more powerful than you might think when games are programmed specifically for them. Because PC games have to work on pretty much anything, the full potential of a single GPU can never be realized.

[Motorola]

Yeah you're right.

[ShabbaRanks]

couldn't of said it better... Well said !

[ProjectVulcan]

I wouldn't say vastly. It helps a lot that the developer knows exactly the hardware the game is gonna be built for, it helps that the fixed platform means they can root out all the tricks and find performance the equivalent part on PC wouldn't be capable as it is burdened by several levels of access i.e drivers whereas consoles have direct to metal access.

Xenos in 360 is a clever GPU, but it is still easily beaten in the real world, in a PC, by something like an 8800GT. PC does win admittedly by employing brute force but not massively more brute force is required to overcome the overheads PC does suffer from. 8800GT is like maybe 2-2.5 times faster than 360, and it shows. Not that much is swallowed up by the OS and API.

Even with efficiency advantages, 6670 is not fast by any metric after the year 2008....mainly because it is lacking in memory bandwidth and pixel fillrate.

It'll never be quick enough to do the sort of demos you have been drooling over, the Samaritan stuff, Battlefield 3 on ultra with all the filters jacked up etc etc. Not even in 720p.

It'll comprehensively beat what 360 and Ps3 can do if you pit them against each other in 720p, but it could never do wonders in 1080p.

So i guess it depends what you might want. It is a decent choice to stick with the lower resolution, however if you were hoping for more res, more filtering, samaritan style leaps then not even a more efficient platform will be able to rescue those dreams from the bin with this level of hardware.

[wicko]

This is what Carmack was saying about the API overhead for PC GPUs being restrictive (basically not letting you get as close to the silicon as a console GPU would). A 6670 in a console would outperform a 6670 in a PC.

I still expected something a bit faster than that (360 was the equivalent of an X1900, an enthusiast level card). 6670 is a budget card, however even budget cards are pretty powerful.

[bozebo]

These GPUs nowadays are mostly the same architecture with a different number of cores. The same optimisations apply to the 6670 as would apply to the 6850, 6870, 6950 and 6970.

Once you are using 100% of the shaders in a card and the frame rate is pixel/fragment shader or vertex shader capped - you simply cannot optimise it any more without reducing load on the shaders (by optimising the logic in your HLSL, for which any querks will be architecture specific like I said above).

A 6670 will just NEVER produce Samaritan quality graphics, EVER; not even at 30 fps 720p. It would need 5x the number of cores to even suspect that as a possibility after taking into acount massive optimisations (like 100% increased performance pulled out of thin air, like god of war 2 lol)

Sony and MS had a play around with some interesting tweaks on their hardware this gen, the 360 has 10MB of special RAM that can apply calculations as the data is dumped in it - which took a lot of time and experience to optimise. And the PS3 had a weaker GPU but lots of post-processing (combining layers from deferred rendering, motion blur etc.) could be moved onto the SPU cores once the programmers were used to the hardware and the engine's general memory management was tweaked just right (essentially making multi plats a no-go for getting all the performance they can).

Anyway, this article is likely a bit misleading.
Sure, it could be based off the chip in a 6670 but it will probably be a newer fabrication and a lot snappier. If it is 6x as powerful as a 360 like the article says then you would be better comparing it to a 6850, which is still nowhere near enough power to run Samaritan at 1080p (not even a fith of the required power). So this is a gen-and-a-half console at best if this rumour is true.

Also, PCs have no issues capping out all the shaders in a GPU due to API inefficiencies, all that is wasted time on the CPU - the 360 uses DX9 almost identical to the DX9 on a PC anyway, so the API is doing most of the same things in the UMD (User-Mode graphics Driver) behind the scenes, the CPU is plenty powerful enough to deal with it and you can apply the same low level access on a PC (just isn't practical because it is different in d3d9 for various card ranges but it's exactly the same in 10 and 11 for all cards/manufacturers).

It could be that they are employing 6670-style GPU(s) along with some other fancy technique such as the EDRAM that the 360 had; and it is certainly true that there will be extremely fast memory like consoles usually have (though DDR3 in a sandy bridge setup these days is maddeningly fast and never even remotely stressed by any game currently out).

One thing is certain, it's impossible for it to ever render Samaritan quality graphics - it just won't happen unless this rumour is massively incorrect. If the rumour is true I suspect they have officially ditched gamers because the tech is already outdated.

[ardivt]

Found this list online and I think it's very helpful to get a little bit of perspective here.

The Playstation 1's graphic card was top-of-the-line when it came out. Could do 3D graphics better than PCs at the exact time of release in late 1994. It had a technological lead over PCs for approximately one year.

The Nintendo 64's graphics card was top of the line at release in 1996. It could do special effects such as enviromental mapping 6 months ahead of PCs. It had a technological lead over PCs for approximately 6 months.

The Playstation 2's graphic chip was top of the line in 1999, but due to delays the machine was not released until the year 2000. Combined with difficult programming, the full capabilities of the machine were not on display until Metal Gear Solid 2 in 2001. By then, the graphics were two years behind PC.

The Gamecube's graphic chip was essentially equivalent to top of the line chips in the year 2000 (Radeon 7000/Geforce 2) but was delayed until 2001, whereby it was one year behind PCs.

The Xbox's graphic chip was a top-of-the-line Geforce 3 released 6 months after the Geforce 3 chips. It was 6 months behind in terms of graphics.

The Xbox 360's graphic chip used a combined vertex/pixel shader which was not available on PCs for a large amount of time, but a lack of RAM hampered visuals. On release it could probably be said to have been a year behind PC graphics.

The Wii used the same graphic chip as the Gamecube, but only at a higher clock speed. Essentially, a year 2000 PC card in the year 2006. So it was 6 years behind. This is the biggest gap.

The Playstation 3 used a graphic chip equal in power to a 7800GTX (a 2005 card)....at the end of 2006. Due to a lack of RAM and programming difficulities the full power of the machine was not really on display until Uncharted (2007). So the machine was two years behind PC.

The Xbox 720 will use a 6670 which is a middle-tier graphic card released in 2011, and the console is to be released in 2013. It is roughly on par in terms of graphics with a top-of-the-line-at-the-time Radeon HD3800, a 2007 graphic card. It will be 6 years out of date on the time of release, just like with the Wii.

Microsoft is following Nintendo's strategy exactly.

[ProjectVulcan]

Long story short: If you rewind and go back to the time where 6670 would have been a top end card like inside the top 3 fastest single GPU cards you would have to go way back to early 2008 before the HD Radeon 4800 and GTX2xx series launched.

If the rumours hold out and Microsoft launch this thing in early 2013, that will mean then the hardware inside it would be 5 years old.

I hoped for a lot more. At least a 6870 sort of speed. I hope sony go with at least a GTX560 level GPU but if they don't launch til next year they could get something even faster crammed in and it wouldn't be too pricy.

[solidt12]

yep. exactly what I was gonna say.

[Crazyglues]

Yeah that's weak, they needed at least the 6970, hell the 7970 is already out, and by 2013 that card is going to be just on the borderline of hot cards..

I don't know what they are planing but so far it's looking like the system is going to be seriously underpowered..

If this is true Microsoft just put the ball back in Sony's hands... now let's see what they do..

[gamingdroid]

You mean how the Xbox 360 has less power than the PS3, yet the games look almost identical?

It's all about smart engineering, not about putting the most high tech and by extension most costly parts.

Perfect example of that is the PS3, with it's vast computing power that it can't fully utilize because of bandwidth bottlenecks. Other examples are PS3's dedicated RAM that has superior bandwidth, but the bottleneck wasn't the bandwidth... it was the amount!

You see this in games like Rage, where PS3 version had far more texture pop-up than Xbox 360 due to dedicated memory instead of the 360's shared memory design that had more available for VRAM.

[Crazyglues]

@ gamingdroid

uh, No, this is not about PS3, this is about the 6670 graphics card and how I have the 6970 in my PC and when playing Crysis 2 @ 1080p with full everything and high texture upgrade, it plays, but not 100 percent smooth..

and I have 8gb's of ram... it's not crawling but it's not 60fps that's for sure.

So going with a weaker card does not look good for next gen games, since the card has to last at least 5 years..

How can that be a good card if's already weak by the time the system comes out..

Let's be honest, smart engineering is great but no amount of smart engineering can get around the limits of the card- It is what it is..

If they are going to really corner the gaming market in the next gen, it's go hard or go home.. (you gotta do something that will get even hard core PC Gamers to say, yeah I need to get a console)

-Because Sony looks like they have learned from their mistakes with the bottlenecks and will be coming hard this time around.

That's all I'm saying.. I want Microsoft to give me a real good reason to run out and buy a X720

hell, when I'm playing Crysis 3 or Battlefield 4 or whatever is out on the new systems, I want it too look like I'm in the dam jungle -(Like this)- http://www.youtube.com/watc...

They better go hard or I don't see any reason for people to even run out and grab this next gen. -and having just a 6670 that just sounds like that's just not good enough for a system coming out in 2013..

[slayorofgods]

The PS2 and original xbox are probably the last consoles that will have more powerful graphics then current generation p.c.'s... This is because of cost, power consumption and most importantly heat. The current generation has been riddled with over heating consoles.

A generation without rrod or ylod might get my attention. But really in graphics alone a new generation is too soon.

[Dude420]

@ Crazyglues

First of all, they can't just stick in a 6970. For the consoles size, they have to make it compact to fit all the other parts and that costs more money. That's not even considering the CPU and RAM they're putting in there.

Second, the PC does not show the true power of the video cards when it comes to gaming. All PC games today have to be written to work on so many types of video cards, from the old 8800GT (or even older) to the brand new 7000 series AMD cards. Therefore, games are not truly optimized for any card.

Let's say they managed to stick a 6970 in the Xbox. when games will be written specifically for that card, it would probably destroy 2 way SLI 580GTX's in a PC.

My point here is that putting in a 6670 probably isn't a bad idea and we're just not seeing it's true power.

[Statix]

@gamingdroid: You're a bit confused. The general consensus amongst developers is that the PS3 is bottlenecked by the GPU. The 360 has a more powerful GPU than the PS3, which offsets the PS3's sizeable CPU advantage. The GPU is the single, greatest determining factor of graphical prowess in any PC or console system. ANY PC gamer or PC builder will tell you that.

Ergo, if the Xbox 720 has a measly HD 6670, and the PS4 has even the midrange GTX 560 ti (hypothetically speaking), then the PS4 will absolutely DESTROY the Xbox 720 in graphics rendering. This much cannot be debated. This is assuming that Sony doesn't go the 100% ultra-cheap route and at least goes for a GTX 560 ti for the PS4.

However, I also very much doubt that Microsoft would be so cheap as to go with such a low-end card like the HD 6670 and leave the window wide open to be left behind in graphical prowess. That's why I don't believe this rumor. There is the slight possibility that Microsoft will be going with TWO 6670 GPUs, and that would be much better, but there are a plethora of issues that plague dual-card setups which make such a setup impractical for consoles. I.e., heat generation, manufacturing cost/yields, power consumption... not to mention the micro-stuttering phenomenon that could potentially be very annoying.

[STONEY4]

^^what he said. First time I played MGS2 on PS2, it was miles above anything I played on PC. Until 2003 and on where every PC game after Doom 3 looked a whole generation ahead of the PS2/Xbox/GC.

MGS4s original real-time 2005 trailer looked mindblowing, better than any PC game at the time... then (according to Kojima) the PS3s specs changed, and by the time the game was released, there were better looking games out there. That trailer still looks good today, especially compared to how the cutscene ended up looking in the final game.

But PC technology has become so cheap/affordable and is advancing so fast that it really won't happen again. The consoles this gen were already outdated on release.

[CharlesDCI]

@Gamingdroid

"You mean how the Xbox 360 has less power than the PS3, yet the games look almost identical?"

That's because Microsoft's content policy for the 360 pretty much dictates parity among multiplatform games.

[Gazondaily]

Yeah I have a 6970. This seems to be undrpowered for a next gen console. Still....it hasn't been confirmed yet so its early days.

[sikbeta]

Graphics are not the more important thing, did you guys didn't saw what happened this gen or what?

[Rhythmattic]

Crazyglues

Great Graphics, totally suck-worth Ai.

[Crazyglues]

@ Rhythmattic

yeah that's a good point, hopefully they step up the Ai too in the next generation of consoles..

[slayorofgods]

Please tell me the next generation is going to be more then just the equivalent of adjusting from med graphics to high graphics on most games. If that is the case then a jump isn't necessary yet.

Am I missing something, is this upcoming generation going to offer some new feature that the current generation can not offer?

[ninjahunter]

That is exactly the jump Haha, well, native 720p is probably expected, That graphics card just doesnt have the raw power for 1080p in anything that looks good.
The difference between each generation is just going to get smaller and smaller, because it require exponentially more power to improve graphics. At some point, it will require so much horsepower to make any difference that polygon graphics will be replaced by ray tracing or something.

[ZippyZapper]

IGN? strange rumors today http://www.computerandvideo... this one says 7000 series. Windows 8 is right around the corner so you never know. DX11 for sure, so cross platform Win8/Xbox with full backward compatibility is a serious possibility.

[hazardman]

I read something about forward compatibility, and how Xbox 360 games would optimize to new consoles graphics. I know i read this somewhere, but can't recall sources..sorry!

[osamaq]

Radeon HD 6670 ?// u must be kidding me
why ?
there are much more powerful gpus out there..
by the time 2013 it will faaaaaaaaar more obsolete
i will go with sony if they produce more powerful console..

[juggulator]

It doesn't say they will be using this exact card just that it might be close to it.

Besides it supports DX11 right? Yes.

And that's the biggest thing as we haven't seen what DX11 can accomplish on consoles.

[osamaq]

how can the Radeon HD 6670 render avatar quality games?!!
either the rumors are BS or AMD president was BSing us.....

[fr0sty]

So I already own a more powerful GPU... No thanks.

[frostypants]

FPS is entirely up to the dev. People who think every game will be 60fps next gen are missing the point. Devs could make all games 60fps THIS gen if they wanted...they'd just have to tone down the other stuff like textures and particle effects. The same will apply next gen. Devs might just limit to 30fps in many games in order to maximize textures. I'm not sure everyone gets this...

[SJPFTW]

right on. Still think most of the AAA games next gen though will recieve a huge graphical boost, will still be 720p + 30fps mainly because that gives you the best balance between graphics and performance.

Also Dont forget its not just graphics cards. Also have to look at RAM and CPU and all that other jazz.

[frostypants]

Also, Consoles are more than just the GPU. Their entire infrastructure is geared towards speed. Memory, bus systems, etc...all 100% geared to gaming in ways that PCs are not. High end PCs will always be king, but consoles tend get more out of what they have due to those aspects we tend to overlook.

[GraveLord]

PC graphics cards never get used to their full power.
Devs can't optimize to just 1 graphics card, since PC gamers have a variety of builds.

[TENTONGUN]

if the next gen console cant do next gen engines like unreal 4(not 3.5) then whats the point, i wont buy it

[Hanif-876]

I am willing to wait if they opt in for the Radeon HD 7970 even a full year after because it offers a lot more performance, consumes less while generating less heat on the 28nm process. Hence, tell me if that's not what a console need?!

[TheXgamerLive]

You do realize this is FAKE, don't you?

Common sence should tell you that.

[CrimsonEngage]

I have a 4850 and can run BF3 at all high with 60FPS. If the only game you can get 60fps on with a 6670 is COD then the rest of your PC must be complete trash.

A graphics card is only as good as the other components in your case. If any one of them bottle necks it will bring everything else down with it.

Just saying.

[ninjahunter]

Son, you high?

[hiredhelp]

Yeh hes very high, i have old ati 4870 1gb powercolor i dont get anywere near 60.
Not with 1 card hell many top lines struggle to get 60 inc my gtx 560 unless. Had sli witch i do.
Untill march when by 7970 or 7950 xfire undecided.

[tee_bag242]

Yeah at what res? I have the same card in a quad core bootcamped iMac 27 . You may know the internals ain't exactly weak so I'm curious how you can get 60fps

[rowdyBOY]

a hd 6670 is equivalent to a 8800gt.
check this link out to see how it performs against the best card of today ?
so far ,

http://www.anandtech.com/be...

ha ha , thats got to be a joke .
if it isnt , than bye bye microsoft and hello sony

[Drekken]

I have a 8800GT in my PC and that card is so out of date. MS is concentrating on cartoony kiddie games anyways. They don't need all that much power.

[PC_Enthusiast]

microsoft is going to put in some expensive motion control technology in the xbox 720 and cheap out on the hardware like gpu cpu maybe ram aswell :/

[SephirothX21]

The next gen consoles won't pass a GTX 580 in graphics. I bought that card for 500 hundred euro and it is gigantic. By the time next gen consoles come out, I'll have added a second one or a GTX 600. Though a 580 is very powerful and I'd be surprised if next gen console graphics will be 75% as good as it.

[Scenarist]

LOL when i read the title ... that was my first thought

" Thats It ? "

[FanboyPunisher]

People dont know shit

Xbox had a gpu close to the X1800XL in terms of performance, a 6760 is FAR FAR more powerful then a X1800XL(AMD) / 7800(Nvidia).

People forget because you used your card on PC, and it was meh means a console will make that card function far better on a console, due to the optimization in making the games vs PC games that dont maximize the hardware as well as a console can.

Its fine, 6760 seems realistic imo. PS3 had a worse gpu then xbox, so even this next gen PS4 will likely have similar spec'ed gpu if this is a accurate article.

Either way, reguardless if its a 6760 or not, both PS4/720 will have similar spec'ed gpus.

[lve2playbball]

someone's post over at IGG...thought it was funny

"I can already see their E3 presentation now.
360 x 6 = XBOX 2160, 2+1+6+0 = 9 (German techno beats began thumping with a robot voice repeating 'nein, nein, nein, nein, nein.') Spotlight hits a sweaty shirtless David Hasslehoff and Bill Gates doing the robot to the rhythm of the techno beat, They continue the robot as avant-garde images of exotic animals floating in space wearing master chief helmets are projected on the screen; all the while the beat continues thumping, 'nein, nein, nein, nein, nein.' Bold lettering fills the screen with the phrase, "All your XBOT are belong to us". The vivid images and mesmerizing trance become too much for the crowd to handle. David Hasslehoff and Bill Gates begin rolling in a pile of money while laughing uncontrollably as the audiences eyes began to melt inside their skulls like the finale of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Actually this was just Greg Millers response when I asked him why he texted me at three in the morning saying he had an incredibly amazing dream of the new Xbox presentation at E3."

[MEsoJD]

Why are people surprised or disappointed with Microsoft going with this card? So it won't do native and/or 60 fps 1080 for most games... it really doesn't need to. Try to understand that modern consoles benefit from users being far away from the screen who wont notice a lot jaggies and edges, oppose to pc gamers who are up close and actually need sharper visuals and power.

[ChrisW]

The next gen consoles with last gen GPUs? This is why consoles will ultimately fail!

[NYC_Gamer]

they should have went with the 6950

[pc_masterrace]

I have two 6950s and they're spectacular but far too expensive an option for a console if they're looking at 2013 ship date.

[dirthurts]

6950? Seriously? That's a 260 dollar card. Want a 600 dollar console? Mid as well buy a pc.
Not to mention those cards are huge in comparison to a console case, Where would you put it? Not to mention the power consumption and heat output.
The 6770 is a good choice. Small enough to work, affordable enough, and much more powerful that what is out there right now.
If you want raw power, buy a pc.

[NYC_Gamer]

i already have a gaming PC with the 570.my 60gb launch PS3 cost me 600 dollars with nothing.

[Statix]

A GTX 560 ti is about equivalent to the HD 6750, and I bought it on sale for $175 the middle of LAST YEAR. By the time late 2013 hits, the GTX 560 ti and HD 6750 will be MUCH cheaper.

I would be surprised if the PS4 doesn't include AT LEAST a GTX 560 ti or equivalent.

[SyWolf]

The actual GPU is relatively small, you're thinking of the PCB and other components that are attached to the GPU. In a console those things wouldn't be there. You're also assuming that it would be a vanilla card, which isn't realistic. Microsoft would modify it to better suit the overall design of the console.

[Bob570]

People seem to forget that MS will be paying a fraction of what consumers would have to pay for a comparable GPU. I'd bet that MS would pay 20-30% of what we would have to pay.

At the time the 360 launched, it's GPU was comparable to a $600 graphics card. MS actually sold the 360 consoles at a loss for a while. It cost MS somewhere around $500 to $750 to make.

http://www.macworld.com/art...

http://www.joystiq.com/2005...

[peowpeow]

HD 6750 competes with the 550 not 560 ti. 6850 is closer but still not as fast

[RyuStrife]

A gtx 560 ti is actually a lot closer to a HD6950. Even the price range is. Currently, it's at $250.

Edit: That's actually the price for a superclocked version. But, you get the idea.

[Double_Oh_Snap]

I'm not the best with tech. So can somebody explain if this turns out to be real, what the comparison to the current xbox would be? Just curious.

[JsonHenry]

It means it is already outdated. Bad outdated.

Check out just how bad here - http://www.videocardbenchma...

That is assuming this is even true. It could be "akin" to the 6670 but have a higher clock rate and more RAM. Or it could have even less through-put than the regular PC counterpart.

[Double_Oh_Snap]

Disappointing if true, thanks for the comparison though.

[Dude420]

The comparison is pointless, some of these guys don't seem to understand writing a code for tons of video cards vs writing for one video card.

The GPU in the PS3 is apparently as powerful as the old 7800gtx, yet look at the results. Just imagine what they can do with this card.

Take this for example, the hardware in all macbooks for a certain model are the same. OSX was very well optimized for that hardware, which is why it can run very fast compared to Windows.

[JsonHenry]

Look at the results DUDE420? Its pulling down the same low rez textures at 720p (or less) in most games that the PC counter part gets. YES coding for one set of hardware can help you pull off something the PC counter part won't. But it isn't some sort of silver bullet that overcomes outdated and slow hardware. Its called optimization for a reason. It optimizes it. It doesn't turn a Fermi card performance into Kepler card performance.

Outdated is outdated no matter how you code for it.

[Dude420]

Yeah sure it's 720p, but show me a game on pc, running on a 7800gtx that looks as good as Killzone 3, Uncharted 3 and God of War 3? I used to have a 7950GTX and even that had trouble running Crysis at medium settings at 1280x1024. When I upgraded to a GTX 560 Ti (obviously with new PC hardware), I was amazed by the performance leap.

I do most of my gaming on PC, but I have to say, I'm impressed with what they could dish out with the PS3 and Xbox 360 in this generation. Point is, in the right hands they can work wonders with video cards. Besides, it'll most likely be a custom chip based around the performance of a 6670, who knows what they could give it.

Edit: Oh and yes I think you need to understand the difference between a low end and outdated card. If it was outdated, it wouldn't have the latest features that all other cards have out there (like GDDR5 vRAM and DX11), it's just a less performing card.

[STONEY4]

It can't even keep constant 60fps on Modern Warfare 2 at 1920x1200 with 4xAA. Which is poor, even by low-end GPU standards. It's more of a mass-production everyday desktop kind of GPU than a gaming GPU.

It's obviously a good leap above the current-gen consoles (which struggle with COD 60fps even at sub-HD), but it doesn't even match the $300 cards of 2008. It's BARELY above 2006s high-end 8800 GTX. It's 2012 right now.

http://www.guru3d.com/artic...

Comparison with a larger range of cards that really shows how poorly it holds up, using Far Cry 2.

http://www.guru3d.com/artic...

Which leads me to believe that there is no way that Microsoft is that stupid.

[mrshooter2k12]

This rumor worries me because if true (which I hope not), the device would probably spontaneously combust upon starting up even the Samaritan demo.

[Shackdaddy836]

To give you perspective, my GPU from 3 years ago(2009) in the computer I made is about twice to three times as good as this card.

It is better than the current Xbox's GPU but not by much... It probably will be stuck at 1080p, 30fps its whole life...

[ninjahunter]

The Jump will be to about modern PC graphics at 720p. thats of course dropping a few subtle, yet demanding effects like SSAO.
the biggest difference will probably be native 720p though, It just doesn't have the raw horsepower for anything good at 1080p

[AlbatrossRevue]

Can't see M$ using this GPU on a console that if the rumor is true won't go into production for a year

[mrshooter2k12]

So......we will have waited almost eight years for what is basically an abysmal update at best. The GPU will be almost useless if Microsoft intends to carry on with a ten year lifecycle.

Really disappointed if this actually turns out to be true.

[SleazyChimp]

None of this lines up with what AMD its self stated about the next box having avatar like graphics. It is rumored that MS is launching 2 versions of the new box. One was suppose to be a low cost set top box. This card would be a better fit for such a thing. That would leave the high end version still in line with using the 7900 south beach series. Plus this is just a rumor, so take it with a grain of salt. Besides it doesn't make any sense for MS to have a long term plan with such underpowered tech.

[OcularVision]

Some people don't realize that a console's CPU is used almost exclusively on games while a computer needs it for a huge variety of tasks.

[BitbyDeath]

Yeppers. Same goes for ram too so don't go expecting 8gb, even 4gb will be a stretch, likely be around the 2gb mark and that will be plenty for consoles.

[Nintenuendo]

Yeah, a lot of people in this thread don't seem to quite understand the difference between how PC GPU's work and how a GPU is used in a console. They don't need to put a 6950 in a machine that works on dedicated tasks.

If you look at what the 360 and PS3 launched with in relation to what was available on PCs at the time, you'll notice the same trend.

Not to mention there will likely be tweaks to the chipset to accommodate what MS needs/wants in their system. It will be a custom chip.

Compared to what's in consoles NOW, this would be a huge update... if it's true.

[Tacklebait]

I agree, it would be nice find an article that shows of the 360 takes advantage of its hardware and how its technology compares to computers with the same technology.

[vortis]

A CPU exclusively for games?

How about cross-game voice chat? Movie streaming? Kinect interfaces? MP3 overlays?

No, consoles are no longer exclusively dedicated to gaming and I don't see that changing with the next set of consoles. More than anything home consoles will be doing a lot more background multi-tasking if they keep on adding additional entertainment apps to their cache.

Also PC quad-core CPUs are rarely put under that much strain unless you're playing a poorly optimized PC game like GTA IV. Most of the time programs rely on good GPU performance and dedicated VRAM.

[Tenkay23]

I think RAM has to do more with the multitasking features you mention (crossgame chat, movie streaming, Kinect, etc.

My quadcore i7 barely gets worked even when running games on max settings (Crysis 1 & 2). The CPU doesn't need high clock speed, it needs more cores.

RAM is important and is possibly the only thing holding back this generation (see Skyrim, PS3's lack of crossgame chat).

Mind you, not as much RAM is needed in a console because a large operating system isn't hogging all the resources (Windows 7 uses 1.5GB of RAM just to run)

[OcularVision]

Those things like voice chat use VERY little of the CPU power if any, it also depends on the RAM (hence why PS3 doesnt have x-game chat). Watching movies and using Kinect is often done separately...

You can believe what you want about the use of the CPU, just like how people in 2005/06 did.

[Pandamobile]

CPUs are used more in consoles because they were equipped with weak-ass GPUs, whereas PCs have a decent amount CPU horsepower, but a massive amount of GPU power.

[gamingdroid]

A console is designed from the ground up with an Operating System that takes minimal footprint on resources. That means it is far more efficient.

Games are designed with specific hardware which enables far more optimizations than can ever be practical in a PC setting i.e. on PC you are paying for a lot of computing power that doesn't get fully utilized.

[darkequitus]

Carmack at at quakecon 2011 explained how inefficient a gpu in a pc runs poorly because of driver hoops it has to jump through. That is why 10x more power PC GPU compared to a console does not = 10x better.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[SugarSoSweet]

Understandable. However using a 6670 is still too weak. Using a 6850/70 would be the much better choice if you ask me. Remember the 360's GPU was a mid range card while this card is an entry level card not even game exclusive optimization can save this if true

[QuantumWake]

This can't be right. If everyone remembers correctly, MS adopted quite a new GPU back in he day. It resembled the X1000 series of video cards, but had specs later used by the 2000 series cards. And the Xenos GPU was one of the first to utilize a Unified shading architecture.

MS is most likely going to utilize a 7000 series or higher for the next Xbox.

[Letros]

Maybe this time they want to make profit on each console from day 1.

[QuantumWake]

That could be a reason. There are too many rumors to pin-point what GPU the next Xbox will hold. Based off a couple of articles, MS should adopt the Southern Island GPUs. Like I said in my previous comment, the 360 was pretty powerful for its time. It would be foolish to think that MS will utilize a GPU that would be 3 years old in 2013.

A 6000 series of video cards is something the WiiU will most likely incorporate into its hardware.

[Shackdaddy836]

They could be doing what Nintendo did this gen.

I hope they don't go that path, but you can kinda already see it with Microsoft's massive focus on Kinect and casual services.

[QuantumWake]

This is a pretty weak argument imo. Just because MS is focusing on Kinect and "casual" services, doesn't mean they're all the suddenly going to skimp on hardware. This is NEXT-GEN consoles we're talking about.

Console technology that is aimed to last 5-10 years. They're obviously going to make the next Xbox as powerful as possible while at the same time making Kinect compatible with next-gen technology.

[badkolo]

i doubt this greatly

[jizzyjones]

Tired of next gen rumours, think ill wait til NEXT YEAR to give them my full attention :)

[mrshooter2k12]

I really do fail to realize why people are constantly jumping on the bandwagon defending what is essentially flippant choices when it comes to relatively important matters such as the desert-dry lack of exclusive titles and more importantly, the specs of next-generation consoles.

I'm a big Microsoft fan, but to think that Sony may have two blockbuster exclusives just waiting to burst out the door, whilst Phil Spencer pontificates about quality over quantity is laughable- all while opening two new Kinect-focused studios.

There is no defending the placement of a 6670 in what is supposed to be a cutting edge hardware device. It will drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator, and will be hopelessly outed within a year or two. Playing Battlefield 3 at 1080p on the highest settings isn't asking much, it's at least expected.

Please God Sony will actually upgrade to something impressive, which won't be a tad underwhelming. As for the rumor, hopefully it is complete crap.

[DA_SHREDDER]

Im sorry, but I don't care how powerful the system is if the first party games suck as bad as they did this gen. Opps sorry, they had Forza this gen, but other than that Microsoft can go in a corner and die with their over priced xbl and irrelevant software.

[SKUD]

The biggest challenge for MS isn't the GPU but rather the cooling system. I wish there was a smart tear down design so you can keep your console free of dust without voiding the warranty. Air cans don't generate enough pressure needed to completely clean out the enclosure (factory sealed).

[CandyCaptain]

I would love a fully cleanable console, would prevent so much avoidable wear.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

Over at NeoGaf they have like 3 or 4 of these kinds of rumors running... ranging from this one per IGN claiming the HD6000 series to a couple others claiming HD7000 series...

What I take away from all of this..

AMD/ATI is being brought up far too often lately...has to be some truth to this.

More than likely the GPU will be from the HD Radeon family but most likely a custom build similar to what the did before.

And lastly...a 2012 launch is pretty much out the door at this point and 2013 looking very likely...possibly Spring 2013.

After that...its a crap shoot on RAM and the CPU.

[girevik]

So the wii u could have a better gpu? Interesting.

[OpenGL]

It's unlikely as the Wii U's GPU being based on R700 doesn't mean much, as there are low end variations comparable to the Radeon 6670 like the Radeon 4650.

What this does mean though is that if these rumors are true, the difference in power between the Wii U and next Xbox will not be that significant.

From a cost perspective this move does make sense, as the Radeon 6670 should be cheap to manufacture with its 128-bit memory bus and 118mm² die size on 40nm.

[Joegrine20]

AMD said the Wii U will be using southern island series graphics cards

[OpenGL]

@ Joegrine20
AMD never said the Wii U is using Southern Island, only that AMD is pleased to have Nintendo as a customer again for their next cosnole. The only article that references Southern Island at and the Wii U is a Fudzilla article from June 2011, 6 months before the Radeon 7970 was unveiled.

The Radeon 7970 is a 250W GPU so it's not going to be used in a console, and so far all of the rumors point to something based on the Radeon 4000 series, which makes sense anyway as licensing a GPU design no longer in use is cheaper than licensing the latest and greatest.

[girevik]

At least it bodes well for Nintendo if the wii u is comparable to the next xbox. I'm sure all systems will be similar, which will place emphasis on each platforms exclusives and features. Plus Nintendo would have at least a year head start.

[yabhero]

WiiU will likely be using a RadeonHD 4890 which is a good chip and can run games like BF3 and crysis on high. However some rumors indicate that they are using a 40nm AMD Radeon HD with would be a 5000 series... still HOORAY FOR MULTIPLATS!!!

[OpenGL]

@ yabhero

A die shrink does not mean it is an architecture change. The Radeon 4000 series still does not support DirectX 11 and its programmable tessellation unit has a more limited feature set if I recall, the GPU does not have order-independent transparency support, and lacks support for some newer texture compression algorithms.

Obviously for a console the differences are not that drastic, but this GPU will not be DirectX 11 compliant if it's based on R700.

Also if the rumor that the Radeon 6670 based GPU in the next Xbox is 20% faster than what's in the Wii U, that means the Wii U is not using something based on the 4890, but is instead probably more along the lines of the 4670 which makes sense as at 40nm the 4890 and 4870 would have a thermal envelope that is far too high for a console as small as the Wii U.

[mokopa]

You forgot that a 128-bit gpu is no good for gaming. It struggle with AA and higher resolutions like 1080. We are looking again at dumb down games to accommodate XBOX bad design decisions. My guess is MS may use the HD6850 at 28nm.

[OpenGL]

@ mokopa

I agree that a 128-bit memory bus is not ideal, but it is cost effective and with GDDR5 you can easily achieve over 76GB/s of memory bandwidth which is plenty for a console that is only trying to hit 1080p.

Fudzilla and a few other sites are reporting that the next Xbox is going to use a SoC designed by IBM with an integrated AMD GPU, although an AMD APU based on Llano makes more sense to me despite the less than desirable terms of AMD's x86 license.

[TotalHitman]

Is that it? I heard the Wii U is 50 times more powerful than the PS3. 50 times.

[Riddicrash]

I think what you actually read was 50%...If true, that would make it 1.5 times more powerful.

[TotalHitman]

Your probably right. Thanks for correcting me :)

[yabhero]

The E3 demos were 50% more powerful but the final will likely be 3-5 times more powerful...

[dcbronco]

I think it makes a lot of sense. I believe the next Xbox will have fused chips anyway. So a couple of 4 core APUs could provide a lot of power. Two APUs with modified 66 series GPUs fused to four core Power8 GPUs would be very powerful. The idea of the part being 20% more powerful than the Wii U standalone would go out the window if it was modified. Plus with faster RAM and the ability to use CPU computing power and vise versa would make it pretty good. That would also make it a cheap APU.

Reading the Fudzilla article says the chip will be a modified 7000 series fused with the CPU. That would be a lot more powerful than the Wii U rumored chip. The 7000 series was released last month. The R700 the Wii U was rumored to be based on is a three year old GPU.

But the GPU and CPU in the 360 were each over $200 to produce. TWo of these APUs should come in under $300. Probably closer to $250. A hard drive should cost less than $50. And they could come up with a disc format that cheap to produce based on DVD or HD DVD. They could bring out the next Xbox at $399 and make a profit or have a very small loss on day one.

[yabhero]

About the U R700.. some rumor indiacte that it will be using a 40mn chip which would be AMD Radeon series 5000... that might be where the 20 percent thing comes from.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

Dont forget Kinect....its pretty much 95% certain the next box will come with a kinect on all sku's

[admiralthrawn87]

20% higher than wii-u? so games will be identical again next gen. ps3 was suppose to be slightly higher than 360 and the quality depended on the game.

[ATi_Elite]

I laugh at so many here crying and screaming that "Oh no the HD6670 is too weak, it cant do this, it cant do that"!!

Well get informed children cause this rumor sounds about right to me!

1. HD6670 is DX11 and capable of AA and 1080p performance at 60 frames per second. How? Easy!! Most Xbox720 games would still be DX9 but with a few DX11 features turned on thus giving you the 60FPS performance with a handful of DX11 features but most importantly giving you 1080p with Anti-Aliasing and higher graphical fidelity!

Lots of PC Games were like this in the beginning of DX11. They were just DX9 code with some DX11 features slapped on. DX11 hardware runs DX9 code really easy like taking candy from a baby easy.

2. I'm sure they will use the 1GB GDDR5 Vram model with lower clocks but maybe add some more Render Output Units taking it from 8 to 12.

3. Consoles are CPU dependent so whatever CPU they stick into the XBOX720 will help out the GPU with post processing task and other things thus freeing up the GPU to concentrate on fast rendering.

4. Console games are really optimized to get max performance outta of a CLOSED system unlike PC games that just rely on RAW POWER to do stuff until Nvidia/AMD update performance values through driver updates.

basically the performance of a console HD6670 will be better than sticking it in a PC cause the console games will be more optimized and streamlined for better performance.

5. The HD6670 is a low cost card and a very low watt using card. It uses 66 watts and cost $70 bucks if I'm correct. I'm sure MS will get them cheaper by buying in bulk and new manufacturing parts will lower watt use.

this is important to keep the Xbox 720 price DOWN and have it working within a certain Watt range. All those thinking your gonna get a GTX580 in your consoles are smoking dope cause your console would also need a 600 watt PSu to power it and that would raise the price ALOT!!

So as of right now this sounds very logical to me and it would definitely make the Xbxox 720 6x more powerful than the 360/PS3 and 20% more than the WiiU with it's HD4800 GPU!!

unfortunately Lazy Devs will program for the WiiU and the Xbox720 will only have slightly improved graphics on multi-plats BUT the Xbox720 Exclusives will kick ass in the graphics department.

[dcbronco]

Elite have you also figured the added optimization of APU's. My understanding is that the 360s with Valhalla chips are actually more powerful than the other configurations even though they are using the same parts. And that is without allowing the CPU and GPU to assist each other. The Valhalla chips had to be throttled back to keep developers from using that added ability that the Falcon and other chips wouldn't have to keep the games consistent.

[SandwichHammock]

Sounds about right. When I first found out about this today I was rather sceptical at first reaction, basically thinking it was not true because the spec sounds weak when it came to its relation with the timeline. Then I actually thought about it, and it made sense on many levels, pretty much which you covered in some form or another. If this is TRUE, then I see the nextBox going for a cool 299.99, but most likely 399.99, due to the almost guaranteed inclusion of the upgraded Kinect tech in each kit.

Like mentioned this is going to be a rather dedicated card made specifically for the nextBox, and like DCBronco said its going to be a close knit configuration with the CPU.

NOW, the real issue at hand:

You say "lazy Devs" which to me throws a large amount of your credibility out the window. In my opinion, based on what I know, there is no such thing, except bang for your buck. When you're a Dev studio either self funded or through a publisher, its much more cost effective to make one engine that runs okay on all your target platforms, as opposed to lets say 2 that run really good on ie 360 and PS3 but LOOK the same. Hence this has nothing to do with laziness. This is where our "problem" comes in.

Next Gen apps will be made for the lowest performing platform when it will come to multiplat games. Therefore, for the most part, the stronger hardware will be left with "low grade" assets from the bottom feeder. THIS is why exclusive dedicated games for a platform are so important, from a gamers perspective. Shit, from a multiplat publisher's perspective they couldn't give two shits, as they just want as many copies of a said app to sell lots across multiple outlets.

You seem like a smart cat, but starting with with something something "children" and the whole lazy dev thing makes you seem kinda douchey.

[dcbronco]

Hammock, I think the PS4 will have to use a modified Cell processor since Sony is short on cash. If all of the rumors are true or close on the Wii U and next Xbox, they will be very similar machines. The same machine in a lot of ways with one having a lot more power based on newer parts and other tech. Same as this generation. The Wii uses a CPU and GPU similar to the 360 right down to the 3 or 10MBs memory daughter chip on the GPU. Given that the differences next generation will lean more heavily toward physics and AI instead of graphics, won't developers lean toward the Wii U and Xbox as the leads. They could simply scale the AI and physics to the Xbox later.

But more than likely there won't be another Playstation for 2 or 3 more years. By the time it enters the market the other two will have enough install base to remain the leads for awhile.

[admiralthrawn87]

disagreed for you coming off sounding like a douche

[ATi_Elite]

Sorry but that's the Glorious Master PC Gaming Race in me!

I've been going to therapy for it........Not really!

(It was funny when i wrote it but then again i had a few beers so my bad)

[baodeus]

why don't we wait until they actually annouce something...what if it might be just a chip used for the kinect device?

[Raider69]

And thats it!PC Will be 10 generations ahead every time!To be affortable to mass market neither SONY or M$ can go any further!Expect Sony to go the same route with Nvidia chipset related to the gtx 480 or maybe a 560ti but not more!

[IHateYouFanboys]

when will some of you people learn that a video game console is not the same as a PC?

a 6670 in a console will perform VASTLY better than it does in a PC.

[theeg]

the next xbox is coming out in 2012, less than 10 months from now. i don't know how people honestly think the 360, which is going into 7 years on the market, is going to go into it's 8th year.

ain't gonna happen, new xbox is coming out fall 2012

bet on it!

gpu will be on par with a gtx 570

more than enough with a nice solid i7 quad and 4gb ram for 1080p 60 frames in next gen games.

[caboose32]

Do you know how expensive that would be?

GTX 570 is over $300!!!(and any other GPU in it's performance range) Add in an i7 and 4gb and that's crazy talk!

[dcbronco]

Console makers own there parts. They are not off the shelf, don't have all of the parts of off the shelf parts and can be shopped to anyone that can make a chip for production. They use modified parts made just for their machine. They wouldn't use those parts. They should be able to manufacture APUs based on IBM and ATI technology for under the cost of either of those parts. That's a CPU and GPU for less than either. Easy.

[Twilightx7]

Let me know how that wallet's feeling after shelling out a grand for your new make-believe console.

[Khordchange]

that almost guarantees the Wii U to have third party support. i was expecting a much more powerful machine, but for no its just a rumor.

[GAMExxOVER]

They better do better than a 6670. That will not be very impressive at all, and sure as hell will not hold up to 5 years of gaming, Its going to be lagging by its first year.

Just another reason to stick to PC.

[SyWolf]

Not really. You're forgetting that consoles don't need as much hardware to make amazing looking games. If you think of the 360 as a PC you would have issues running most games on anything other then the lowest possible resolution with everything turned down to low. And yet, due to the power of optimization you get games that look like Gears 3.

[tehnoob3]

The limits of hardware cannot be breached by optimization. An 8800GT can beat current consoles, and thats old. The Ps3's Gpu in 2006 was pretty cutting edge equivalent to a 7900GT, and the CPU was also impressive sporting 300 million transistors.

[IWentBrokeForGaming]

These rumors have me even more excited to see what Sony is plotting for their Next Box as they didn't hold out on going cutting edge this gen... with Blu-Ray and Cell!

I want them to keep the same idea for Hard Drives... that is definatley awesome this gen! the card readers from the 60 gig should make a comeback as well! also it'd be nice to get plenty of USB ports again as well!

[QuantumWake]

Imo, it looks like Sony is going to hang back and see what the competition is going to offer. It's going to be like this: "Oh, so they're going to offer that? Well, we'll just give them this". Or "Since they're going to put that GPU, we'll put this GPU".

It's going to be back and forth between MS and Sony.

[IWentBrokeForGaming]

For sure man... but the 60 gig model of PS3 is the kind of quality they should strive for with PS4 for sure!

[hazardman]

It's just rumors. Also I'm pretty sure Epic games is again in MS ear about what specs should be like on the NEXTBox. They had some say into what specs should have been like on the Xbox 360 when they wanted to put Gears of War on the Xbox! Off Topic tho...If it MS was smart I would try and get Call of Duty games exclusive to NextBox even if its just for the 1st couple yrs. I know I'm gonna get a whole lot of disagrees, but if your not gonna have strong 1st. party support then atleast buy yourself some exclusivity, been thinking bout his for while and it makes alot of sense, but I know that Bitch KOCKdick will not budge..

[Pandamobile]

...Really?

So much for Epic's dream of Samaritan-esque next gen games.

[IWentBrokeForGaming]

All this tech in the console sounds nice... but will the disc format finally go Next Gen? or will Xbox owners just have a hockey puck dvd that will still further hinder games?

[TABSF]

GPU is more important than CPU especially on PC! Why?

Well the GPUs have extremely high core counts, the core are a lot more programmable (why we see them is the worlds fastest supercomputers) but they can push ridiculously high performance

CPUs:
IBM Cell B.E = 102.4 GFLOPS (RISC)
IBM Xenon = 115.2 GFLOPS (RISC)
Intel Core i7 3960x = 119.4 GFLOPS (CISC)

GPUs:
Nvidia GeForce GTX 580 = 1581.1 GFLOPS
AMD Radeon HD 7970 = 3789.0 GFLOPS

If they use this HD 6670 chip then Microsoft are stupid
its only got 480 cores at 800MHz

If the WiiU is using the R770 we are looking at 640 or 800 Cores at 625MHz or 750MHz meaning Microsoft has failed.

[tehnoob3]

First your numbers are wrong (maybe due to being an Xbot or genuine error IDK)

It should look like this:

IBM Cell BE: 204.8 GFLOPS
IBM Xenon: 115.2 GFLOPS
Core i7 3960x:119.5 GFLOPS

I don't think GFLOPS are a good measure of desktop or gaming performance. I'm sure for Gaming and desktop applications the i7 3960x completely annihilates the CELL B.E., but from a mathematical perspective the CELL is superior.

[Jihaad_cpt]

thank you for correcting him I almost blew a gasket in my head reading those CPU floating point performances. Its early morning Im tired

[Bob570]

Hahahahaha!!! WWWWHHHHEEEEWWWW!!! That's a good one!

This would be capable of nothing more than running current gen games in 1080P at the same framerate they already are running.

This article is simply an attempt at getting attention. That GPU is slightly more powerful than the GPU in my laptop.

People also seem to forget that at the time of the 360's release, a graphics card comparable to the GPU in the 360 was $600.

Mark my words. Next gen Xbox will have a much more powerful GPU than this.

[rizzo-rizzo]

Microsoft must think the future GPU's have reached some kind of Moore's Law. If this is true expect some kind of future consolitis. I assume this is said to throw Sony off..

[kaveti6616]

People seem a little disappointed. It's almost as if they had no other choice. As if they couldn't just, you know, build their own PC now rather than wait 5 or 6 or 7 years to find out what cheap hardware Microsoft is going to be slinging.

"I don't need another console. I'm happy with this one. I'm all about gameplay, not graphics."

*reads rumor on N4G.

"WTF? No. That GPU which is 4 to 6 times more powerful than my console's GPU is too weak. This is such BS, Microsoft!"

[tehnoob3]

haha +1

[RevXM]

Im a Playstation guy, Play on pc a lot too, But the PS consoles have been the favourite at least after I got the ps3, I started with Amiga, then PC and now for at least 8 years its been Sony PS and PC.

I find it funny how people say such things, dont need new consoles etc.
Its wrong it can only go so far on whatever platform.
More power and features always lead to games that look and play better or different. Next time around games will surely be a lot more dynamic and more realistic. I remembered that there was some fuzz around Motorstorm when it came out partly because you would deform the mud as you went on, and then came Killzone 2 and BAttlefield bad company wich had pretty fleshed out physics. Next gen will prolly have lots of immersive games that let you play more with environment, see it change and being manipulated by the players and game AI's and dynamics... Perhaps down to the tiniest details... such as a single leaf fallen from a tree.

I cant wait for next gen, but I dont like the thought of underpowered consoles.
So I hope this aint true, because a console should be able to produce decent graphics for a few years and it wont if the leap isnt big enough VS how much time it has been + a few other tiny things..

People on here say the weirdest things like how the next consoles cant have a Radeon 6950 etc. Both the 360 and ps3 cost more to make than what they were sold for and they didnt pay retail prices for the tech which is why they were able to make them.
Ps3 had a Blu-ray player and standalone Blu-ray devices would cost you twice as much as a ps3 itself, not to mention a decent gpu (RSX) and the incredible Cell.

I dont think there would be too much of a problem for either company to produce a console with a so called "400-600$" range performance card in a console.
Sony can now benefit from both BD tech and CELL, just improve them, the basic's are down and made some bucks, but will still be great if uppgraded. So even with a pretty fleshed out new GPU it will still be less of a loss than what they had with Ps3. And I want a truckload of ram, and a decently sized SSD, say 240-400GB depending on how much these will cost by then.

So for Sony Im hoping for a brand new CELL, A fast BD player (12x read perhaps?), and a high end GPU of the latest gen, again as they doesnt pay retail prices and also since they are mass produces over time not to mention they arent entirely original design, like RSX isnt DIRECTLY 100% comparable to any NVidia card but is close to Nvidia's high end gpu NV47 design. (said to be quite a lot like 7800)

And release while its all new, Kind of late to release a console now with a card based on gt 570 or something that the next gen just came out with Radeon 7000 series.
In a sense the ps3 missed, It had a decent card at its time and it was within ok time but then soon after came cards such as Gt 8800, wich wasnt only a gen newer, but featured all new tech that made a lot of differences as compared to previous generation leaps and set the foundation for later gen's.

I understand not everyone can afford a new console at launch and no one is forcing you, but I always wanted them to be as good as they can be a strong hardware makes it worth it in the long run. I did the most stupid things to afford a Ps3... Not saying you should or telling you what I did, but If you want a ps4 you should try save up for one, get a job or trade some manpower for money by helping someone, Mow their lawn, walk the dog etc... If you want one. If you have a decent, well paid job already then there should be no problem.

My little rant.

[FrigidDARKNESS]

The CPU chip maker IBM is reporting a different GPU processor a modified HD 7000 series.
http://www.computerandvideo... The good thing is that MS next console will support DX11 that is a huge plus.

[joab777]

Wow, kinda disappointed. And two of them makes little sense. I guess Sony can look at this and drool. I understand that with kinnect and the future of gaming moving towards console-less gaming, they could offer a cheap console that is much better than 360. If u r Sony, with great in house development, do you try and push it with a more expensive console. I would.

[DigitalxPiracy]

LMAO. So next gen.....

[emk2004]

In general most consoles are 10xs more powerful than their predecessor, so for now i will keep this as a rumor. It might be based on a 6000 series card but, more likely, its the 6770. Glad to see amd cards will be in the next xbox, the more competition to nvidia the better products will get from both.

[Saleem101]

Wow that is a weak gpu lol...

[sriki007]

pc pc pc pc pc...

[sriki007]

give us graphics or give us blood!!!!!

[Abdou23]

If nextbox & PS are only 20% more powerful than WiiU, then i will definitely buy WiiU, i'm interested in having a screen in my controller.

[gigreen]

I already have a better one in my PC right now.

[mamotte]

Sounds kinda right. Taking in account this card is about $100, I think i'll be a card about the same range. Because smart people always forget that a console isn't supposed to be as expensive as a PC, so you just cant go and put a super-duper-ultrapowerful $600 GPU.

[Bladesfist]

Microsoft will probably get the card for a 1/4 of that.

[steve30x]

Some people also forget that the prices they are seeing are Rteail prices. Microsoft will get a large discount on the GPU because it will be bought in bulk and also because of their relationship with the chip makers. What we pay for is $100 will be around $60 to them.

[mamotte]

Yes, wich still leaves room for a $40 processor, $40 board, $30RAM, and let's say about $50 for the lector unit, $50 for the energy source, the controller, cables, fans, the box, the work sumes more money... and then, you have your $300-$350 console.

Not real, accurate prices, but you get the idea. If it's cheaper for'em, doesnt mean the console will be exactly "cheap" for us.

[steve30x]

That was not my point> My point is that you said the GPU was $100 but they could put a better GPU in the next console without it costing them a whole lot of money. No matter what way you look at it the next console wont be cheap at first.

[Anonagrog]

A lot of people here seem naive to the fact that a 6670 in a pc is not the same as a 6670 in a console.

One of the main things that developers have to fight more with on the pc are the calls through the the graphics api (more often than not this is directx). On the consoles, however, the devs have a lot better access to the hardware and ways around the consoles api to write very specific tasks at a low level. This is intentional. What does this mean, though? Well, it means that when it comes to squeezing as much out of the hardware as possible, it's far more likely on consoles. Besides this, when a game is running on a console, the OS footprint in tiny, further aiding matters.

In summary, and as I said up top, a 6670 on a pc is in no way equivalent to a 6670 in a console environment.

[Bladesfist]

Im a programmer and with the xbox you still talk to the direct x API, check xna's documentation if you dont believe me. However optimisation will help performance greatly, but i still don't see this card reaching 7000 performance.

Games are not going to be written in assembly language and sent directly to the hardware on any platform nowadays. That's just asking for developers to crash or fry peoples hardware. The XNA framework is managed direct X so its actually slower than normal unmanaged direct X written in C++

[Anonagrog]

I, too, am a programmer, and working with managed directx and xna is not the same as working directly with the XDK and pure c++, is it? When did I mention assembly, let alone suggest writing games in assembly? Besides, assembly still has it's place in performance critical parts where a knowledgeable programmer will be able to do more than the compiler with all optimization tags on. If you're telling me it doesn't, then that's your loss.

Took a few minutes to locate, but maybe you should read this. Might enlighten you a bit more. http://www.bit-tech.net/har...

[krazeecain]

Kill the console and just make an affordable gaming PC.

[GamingTruth]

i can get the best pc and still not get uncharted or last guardian or killzone or last of us graphics so no ill save my money for the next playstation or xbox

[kainslayer]

you forget that it takes a pc to make a console game dont you and it wont be long until we get a ps3 emulator but thats not the point the point is that you cant imagine uncharted 3 with native 1080p graphics with 16xaa and 8x transparency aa and 16x af and dx11 effects ray trayicing because you are a console head.Lastly thats the talent that sony has we are talking about xflop next gen the only thing that will raise the bar is some filters and dx11 lighting and soft shadows and all of you console players will be sucking up sony and m$....ps i own all consoles and a descent pc the one thing that console have are exclusives well 2 console makers that is sony and nintendo,360 has gears and forza everything else is a flop

[RevXM]

@kainslayer

Lmao In what year exactly would you expect any ps3 simulator to come around?
2027?

MID-HIGH end pc struggles to run some ps2 games with decent res, fps and AA, and lets not forget bugs that are there but aint if played on the original hardware.

PS3 CELL BE is 40 times faster than PS2's emotion Engine according to one of the Early PS3/cell ads on tv. and it sports not only an architecture thats all different from pc architecture, but its damn hard to program for in the first place sporting 7-8 usable CORES. Also its running a OS and its own API, And I also believe that that software is illegal to copy...
Yes good luck trying to emulate that...

Also because ps3 games are made on pc's doesnt mean that the pc's they are made on can actually run them or are more powerful than the console thats why they have Debug consoles or Test consoles to test the games /code.

I could have made a PC game on my cell phone, but it doesnt make my cellphone superior IF I were to write code and make models, paint textures on etc.
MAKING Games/programs is something else than actually running them. a program is just a bunch of binary values and they can in theory be made and edited almost wherever youd like... People find PC's to be the convenient platform to do it.

[krazeecain]

I meant that CONSOLE MANUFACTURERS should kill the console, and just start making affordable gaming computers instead. That way there will be no more stupid "exclusive" titles, because all platforms would be compatible. Also, computers can be upgraded, and can simply do ANYTHING!

[Saleem101]

Sony is going destroy new xbox I hope this rumor is false...

[mamotte]

If that's true, then Sony will rape and destroy our wallets, too...

[veChuy]

That GPU is bad compare with High end GPU PC will rule again!!

[Bladesfist]

Only ram is used for multitasking really, my cpu usage according to task manager is 0% - 8% (6 cores) but my ram usage is 31% of 8GB.

[TheOtherTheoG]

That it? I had assumed they're using one of the new 7xxx series cards, at the very least something better than my 6850, a 6670 is frankly pretty weak.

[ChrisW]

Pfft! Next gen consoles with last gen GPUs!?!

[lionelglitchy]

so next gen we will see a leveling out of console specs with just a few percentage points between them so it will come down to what each console can offer ie;kinect/tablet controller/sixaxis or move.exclusive ip's.sony could come out with a savage box but doubtful look at the problems dev's had porting games to ps3.direct x 11 will do me

[Dits]

Amazed at some of the comments, of course it's not going to be a GTX590 there is no need for that kind of power.

What devs managed to pull out of an X1900 for all these years is nothing short of a miracle.

Am kind of scared as to what they will manage to do with this!

Goodbye DX9 you served us well

[Venjense]

MS is going to pull a Sony...

Go from top to bottom in one gen.

[Droid Control]

IF true, theat won't be powerful enough. Not in 2013 - not to get us through another 7+ years of gaming innovation.

'This deal's getting worse all the time' - Lando Calrissian.

[Game3s]

Something you all should see

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[donman1]

Just 20% more powerful than the WiiU (that is an insignificant number... similar to saying the PS3 is more powerful than the 360). So much for the crazy talk from Xbox fanboys about ridiculous expectations for the Xbox720 blowing the WiiU away. Guys welcome back to reality... The next Gen consoles are all (3 of them) going to be nearly on par with each other from a tech specs level.

Next Gen is going to be about services offered, gaming experiences with additional peripherals (Kinect, WiiU controller etc) and brand loyalty to boast sales. The tech will be improved by not the ridiculous levels you fanboys are talking about. Boy o Boy so many of you are in shock. lol

[steve30x]

I take it they went for such a GPU so that they will have less heat issues. People are forgetting that the better the GPU the more heat it produces. You dont want your console to have overheating issues and have the RROD problem all over again. Yes the 6670 is not the most powerful GPU in the world but it is'nt the hottest running one either. Also the 6670 is a whole lot more poerful than what is in the 360 and if they use a 1GB model it should be powerful enough for a console.

[lugia 4000]

So my computer still has better performance than a 2013 product? Nice.

[zero_cool]

Well im not the least surprised considering the financial state our economy is in currently.

http://www.amd.com/us/produ...

Cheers Gamers & Happy Gaming!

[bednet]

For those who say things like consoles have direct access to hardware and don't have to use APIs so it's faster. Id's like to remind everyone that they intend to have Windows 8 running on the console...If anything, windows is a resource hog, sure it'll be customized, but they intend to use DX11...an API.

My guess is that they are aiming for a low price point and a balancing act between Hardcore and Casual...meaning that hardcore will be the loosers here. a 6670 is already a budget GPU, the one you buy first but plan to change within the first two years. And this is planned for fall 2013...

[Half-Mafia]

So my Gaming PC has almost 3 time more GPU power then the next Xbox.

I have 2 HD 6970s in CFX.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

and how much did you gaming rig cost? Just curious because I am certain MS will target $300-$400 price range for theirs again.

[Half-Mafia]

About £1000. Worth every penny

3X more power for 3x price.

Them specs dont make me excited for the next gen when my PC has been doing that for the past year.

[hano]

Well, yeah. But instead of getting better looking games, you are just spending that horsepower to up the resolution, textures, eyefinity, etc.

And the end result isn't that impressive because companies code console games and optimize for them much better. So a 300$ console can run the games as good 600$ PC usually.

I honestly am disappointed when I saw that, for instance, a game like Skyrim runs better on 360 than PC. If you wanted Skyrim to run well on your PC you needed to mod it like hell, and even so, those performance mods were released like 1 month ago or so.
So yeah, reality is, PC will not be much different from consoles graphically as long as the games are made with consoles on mind first.

[bozebo]

"I honestly am disappointed when I saw that, for instance, a game like Skyrim runs better on 360 than PC."

what?

[xtreampro]

"But instead of getting better looking games, you are just spending that horsepower to up the resolution, textures, eyefinity, etc."

That's not his or his PC's fault, all the blame should be put on the devs for not making full use of any of the GPU's currently in the market.

[rizzo-rizzo]

I'm still writing this down as a lukewarm rumour.. It still seems off & doesn't seem plausible. What would Sony & Nintendo make of that?

Maybe M$ don't mind being a step down from Sony & ripping a page out of Nintendo's business module. "Cater towards the casual crowd for max profits."

If they're dragging down the PC community for their multiplatform requirements they're dragging us all down.

[Half-Mafia]

Isnt it clear that MS doesnt really care about the hardcore gamer anymore. They are selling more 360s then ever, and why is that? Its cause of Kinect, and who is buying Kinect. The same people who bought the Wii.

MS are the kind of campany that if they find away to make more money in a new market they will fuck over the people who made the 360 what it is today (or what it was back in 2010)

[Vip3r]

Think I'll skip next gen consoles then.

[mamotte]

"Yes! This is weak!!! I want a $700 GPU, wich MS can buy in $300, in my new brilliant $350 console!!!"

Brilliant.

[Daz]

We just have to wait and see.
http://www.fudzilla.com/pro...

Rumers just mess with people;/

[Jason143]

so its already outdated. was hoping for a crossfire set up with 3d. :(

[steve30x]

That will never happen. That kind of setup will create too much heat

[Saleem101]

Amd 6670 gpu is comparable to 360,ps3 gpu on power... The 6670 can't even do 60fps on 1080p lol...

[Ck1x]

What are u guys so shocked about though because even sony said that the ps4 probably isnt gonna be much more advanced graphically then the ps3. As much as u graphic whores think these companies like pleasing u, they like the idea of being profitable early on even more. Why should they put that much money into excessive tech for graphics when majority of the multiplatform games will be configured for Wii U and X720. Only first party software would take advantage of the extra added horespower and in Sony's case where would that get them really...

[Klad]

You guys need to see this video. Aparently, Wii U is acually going to be 20% more powerfull that the Xbox 720, not the other way around. This video compares rumoured GPU's.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[OC_MurphysLaw]

The video just like the article here is full of assumptions that are not fact. Until we get at min. a set of specs for the WiiU there is no way to know what, who or how powerful anything truly is in comparison.

[josephayal]

Wow Xbox 720 is like a Super gaming PC 1080P+

[Tacklebait]

Microsoft knows that most gamers would prefer a reasonably priced console rather than an overpriced top of the line powerful PC.

They have top of the line engineers and designers working on this project who understand the capabilities and potential with whichever gpu they use.

I am confident in the decisions and believe they will produce a successful next gen console.

I would be putting the pressure on the developers of the games to produce content suitable for next generation consoles.

[capcock]

If this is true, then LMFAO FAIL

[Ulf]

This rumor is the truth.

This chip targets *exactly* what MS is looking for:

* It's done, and can be released in late 2012 or early 2013, not long after the Wii U.
* It trumps the supposed Wii U by enough to call it "superior".
* It's cheap, and thus the console can be made cheaply.
* It's reliable, and will be sturdy in a livingroom environment without a turbofan.

This chip only has 2x the texture and pixel fill of the Xenos, however. I'm not sure where this "6x as powerful" number is coming from. It's ability to do geometry calculations, in parallel, is certainly a lot higher than the Xenos.

50/50 chance this baby comes coupled with a PowerPC quad core (i.e. 33% more CPU, or more if they enlarge the cache by more than 33% and add OOO execution), and the console will be able to play almost all 360 games from the outset (99% BC).

[hazardman]

Just got this off Gameinformer site, same people that had the rumor now say something different! According to a report from Fudzilla published today, the power behind the next Xbox will be a PowerPC CPU married to a modified ATI Southern Islands 7000 series GPU. The code name for the 32nm chip is Oban, and the report says it's currently in production. The first run of these chips are being made for development kits only.

Fudzilla's report suggests chips for consumer consoles will go into production by the end of the year, suggesting we won't see Microsoft's new console until 2013 at the earliest. Meanwhile, IGN says the GPU will be based on the 6000 series instead, akin to the Radeon HD 6670.

So far, Microsoft isn't commenting on any of the rumors.

[hano]

I'm a PC gamer.
However I think this is a great move by MS:
1) This is a mighty upgrade over the existing GPU in the xbox 360. Imagine 6* the power of 360, that's really strong.
2) The 6670 is the best bang for the buck card in the market today, which means that the pricing of the console will be competitive.
3) All software is optimized for consoles, so expect the new console will have game running as smoothly as 1000$ PC's. From my experience, you need a better PC to keep up with the consoles in multiplatform games because they always think consoles first. Just look at Skyrim, high end PC's were struggling with it, while on the 360 it was playable. So yeah the PC has better hardware but rarely are the games optimized for it, which sucks but is true. I mean for God's sake, the 360 had a 7980 GTx card and you couldn't tell the difference between the 360 and most of the multiplats on PC on high settings. Of course, for exclusives you'll have bigger budgets making sure the best possible graphics on a console.

[kainslayer]

clearly you cant figure out what aa and af or vsync is as for skyrim runs buter smooth on pcs witha desent quad core and an nvidia 570 and above.....and 360 had an ati 1900xt equivalent ps3 had an 7800gtx equivalent,but tell me can you tell the deference between dx11 and dx9 ,hbao and ssao,soft from normal shadows,hirez textures from normal ones?????????
study before you blame pcs console fanboy

[hazardman]

Funny how this story about MS using inferior graphics card and such, but I read an article just now on Gameinformer from Kotaku saying its gonna have blu ray and a PCpower/ATI graphics card, not for nothing but I tend to believe more Kotaku sources than some site i never even heard of and IGN too.

[BuffMordecai]

If this is true, there's no reason for me to buy the next xbox.

[Saleem101]

Tech sites are more reliable than ign..

[Frankfurt]

This wouldn't surprise me. The last two gens the most popular console was not the most powerful.

That being said, the 360 dev kits were FAR less powerful than the final hardware (which was BETTER than PCs at the time of release).

[bobrea]

Doubt it