Valve talk Source Engine 2

Source Engine 2 is likely to arrive eventually, but it’s not top priority, it seems: Chet Faliszek explains why Valve don’t want to replace the tech that’s powered all their games since Half-Life 2.

[denero1]

to kind of sum up the whole article

Question: Why have you not yet moved on to source engine 2
Valve: if it ain't broke don't fix it

[meetajhu]

The Micheal Abrash project can't w8!

[nveenio]

All I know is that Half Life 2 (all episodes) and Portal look just fine to me. They run smoothly, and the gameplay and stories are fantastic. I'd rather people put out a great game on an older engine than put all their dev time into something pretty *cough*Carmack*cough* and not deliver a game worth playing.

[da_2pacalypse]

@inveni0 I wouldn't go that far dude... Carmack has made some pretty awesome games.... The problem with rage is the fact that the story is boring and your character is basically an errand boy... This has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game which are very very fun.

Anyways, I don't expect valve to make a new engine until they're ready to release HL3.

[Saladfax]

...which, in horribly depressing fashion, probably won't occur until after this 2pacalypse you refer to, which I assume is some kind of reckoning based around the second coming of Tupac Shakur.

[AngryTypingGuy]

Whatever Valve...just give us the next installment of Half-Life already! WTF?!

[DeadlyFire]

HL3 = Source Engine 2. Don't know if it will be new engine or patched through source, but it will be labeled as on Source Engine 2.0 very likely.

[turgore]

more like
"We're lazy."

Clearly this engine can't compete with UE3, Forstbite 2 or Cryengine 3.

[Pandamobile]

I really don't think valve cares about competing with the cryengine or frostbite 2

[Jormungandr]

in what way cant it?

People have been brainwashed to believe a new version has to replace the old version for it to get better. I mean that's the way its always been done right?

But the truth is that the current source engine is already more like Source 4 than Source 1 or 2. So little of the original is left.

That's the benefit of modular design. If everything is a module then you simply create an updated module and drop it in with the rest of the modules. Everything from mapping to graphics to audio can be upgraded in this fashion. And there is no reason the result can't keep pace with modern techniques. There is no reason at all the current source engine cant have Tessellation and MLAA and hardware physics and larger more complex maps and tighter internet integration and... so on and so forth.

Seriously... get the original Half-Life 2 off Steam... its not the same game it was at release. If you already have it then just run an update. The engine it uses is now the newer source engine used in Portal 2. The graphics look mostly the same because the textures and models haven't been updated... but there are HDR effects in Half Life 2 now that no one had even thought up at Half Life 2's release.

Why does source have to be completely replaced for graphics to get better? Clearly it already is better and it's still Source. Just not the same Source.

[Redgehammer]

Clearly someone doesn't understand that Valve is in its own category of awesome.

[gamingdroid]

I never once played a game and said, "OH MY GOD! X ENGINE IS AWESOME!!!"

It has always been, "OH MY GOD, this GAME is awesome!"

Most of the time, it is because of the game play with a dash of interesting story and art style.

[Sarcasm]

"in what way cant it?"

Destructible environments?
Dynamic sounds? (BC2, BF3)
Photo realistic lighting?
Tessellation?
DX11 API?

The source engine is still good and runs very well. The physics are still great as well. But there's no denying in some aspects it looks a bit dated.

However I'm no engineer, so I don't see how else they can improve beyond that of other engines. And maybe they're right, they probably don't NEED to.

[Big_Dom]

In terms of fancy shaders, no it can't. Physics and all the rest, yes. Source was well ahead of it's time. It's still impressive even today. What holds it back is that it's looking a bit flat and rough around the edges as far as the kind of visuals it can achieve.

I really wish Valve would just shut up and release episode 3 before it turns into a sham a'la DNF. I've given up on seeing Half Life 3 any time this century.

[Ducky]

This is the DearEsther mod, in source engine.
http://www.littlelostpoly.c...
(there's more screenshots if you snoop around the site)

Valve isn't the dev you go to if you want cutting-edge technological eyecandy. They rely more on art style rather than pushing polygons.
... but that doesn't mean their engine is a slacker.

[Saladfax]

They also always do very well with aesthetics. It doesn't matter how many polygons the game pushes, a well-designed game bleeds narrative from most everything the player looks at.

[morganfell]

Which was better, Crysis 2 or Portal 2?

@turgore

Clearly Crytek, EA, and Epic can't compete with Valve for making an engrossing game.

[StraightPath]

Source engine is dated last i saw it was Portal 2, still has impressive water, lighting and physics but i think dated in terms of todays engine. Bring on Source engine 2 with Half Life 3 play Portal 2 and see how old is looking that engine.

[_Aarix_]

Who cares.Theyre still fun as hell and that is all that matters in a game. Graphics arent fun.

[BinaryMind]

Source Engine 2 will arrive when Half-Life 3 is released. I.E. 5 to 10 years from now aka "When it's done."

[cannon8800]

Zeno Clash was the weirdest game I have ever played. Look into it guys, it's really weird.

[Pootangpie]

however I doubt this engine will be able to work on consoles

[denero1]

I actually agree it is time for an upgrade seeing as it was back in 2004 but success can be a double edged sword if your doing so good using the same setup you feel content ala call of duty -_- no major updates just minor fixes and tweaks

[Letros]

Current source engine is far more advanced than source of 2004

[theonlylolking]

They should use the source engine 2 for Portal 3

[BinaryMind]

I would honestly be happy with a new art-style, even if we can't get a new engine. I'm tired of playing HL2: Zombie Edition or HL2: Portal 2.

[Droid Control]

I think they can get away with it on current gen consoles, but they really need to replace it for the 720 and PS4.

Will still be ok for Wii U though.

[Ayepecks]

I don't think the author really understood what Faliszek was saying. He was saying that Valve continuously updates the Source engine, and at some point they'll update it so much that it'll be Source 2. Not that they're working on an entirely new engine. They'll just overhaul Source significantly.

His exact quote: “We just update it, not just replace it,” ... “[at] some point we may say there’s Source 2 or whatever, but really for us there’s been a pretty easy way to keep it and understand the tools.”

[WhiteLightning]

It's part of the reason why I think we havent seen HL3 yet, if it is going to be Half life 3 instead of Episode 3 then I think Valve would want to show the SE2 off with Gordons next adventure.....it would draw in even more attention from console owners since it would be showing off the next HL

[jdktech2010]

You've gotta think they're working towards a full blown HL3 at this point...even for Valve time, this seems like forever without even mentioning it exists

[torchic]

I agree with jdktech2010. I just don't want to believe that they aren't working on Half Life 3. I mean, what else is there in the pipeline? DOTA 2 is rolling out soon, same with Global Offensive, Portal 2 was release just this April. they just have to be working on that game.

[BlackPrince 42]

/facepalm

This is getting ridiculous. The whole point of the Source engine was that it had a new set of physics and traded long load times between levels for short loads mid-level.

But we're past that now. For example, the Uncharted engine has much more complicated physics, like movement on objects traveling in real-time, and it manages to do it without any load times. And the Uncharted engine looks phenomenal to boot.

Clearly Valve's updates aren't keeping up with the times, they need to just bite the bullet and invest in the Source Engine 2.

[yuval152]

Because they want to invest in the game instead of building a new engine that people will only say:"good grahpics" instead of:"Amazing storyline & gameplay".and the source engine has better physics.

[BlackPrince 42]

I refuse to believe that Valve cannot do both at the same time. They're a billion dollar company with over 250 employees.

And the Source Engine's physics are not cutting edge anymore. They're better than most games, because most games don't even try to have advanced physics, but seesaws and momentum tricks have nothing on the environmental destruction in Crysis 1 or the procedurally generated waves in Uncharted 3.

Valve's saving grace is that they are creative with what they have, which is admirable, but it'll catch up to them eventually.

[Ducky]

The whole point of the source engine was to have a modular engine that could be continually upgraded as needed.

Scrapping it altogether for a new source would go against Valve's current philosophy... and the current source engine has done some marvellous things, so there isn't much need to scrap it.

So far the engine has powered HL2, Portal, L4D, AlienSwarm, CS:S & TF2... and it's going to be used in CS:GO and DOTA2 as well (...then there's the indie games/mods). I don't think there's many engines out there that can pull off this kind of diversity...
It's also the engine that brought PS3/PC cross-platform play, so it is still kicking and innovating.
Time hasn't catched up to it yet.

... Uncharted engine is tailored for one specific kind of game. I doubt it can pull off something like GarrysMod.

[banner]

Well said, if true... I don't know much about engines but valves way of doing it seems smart, Building a new engine can kill a company...

Just keep updating, keep up, and still innovate...

Give me some news on HL though valve! C' mon... I remember when you said dlc was a great way of getting episode 3 out sooner. Something must of whent sour... Was it the size of the game you wanted that you couldn't do cause of the cap live had/has? wth happened!

[BlackPrince 42]

The games you have mentioned, by and large, are not diverse. Most are FPS's. They differ tremendously in art style and feel, but I wouldn't put it on the same level of diversity as the UE3 or even something like the Resistance engine, which switches back and forth between a 30fps shooter and a 60fps action platformer.

PS3/PC cross-platform play is not a technical hurdle, it's more about getting permission from Sony to do it than anything else.

And time is very much catching up to the engine. CS: GO looks worse than COD4.

As to whether the Uncharted engine could do a Garry's Mod. Who knows? Source certainly wasn't built with Garry's Mod in mind, that happened because of dedicated modders.

[Saladfax]

Hate to say it, but Uncharted doesn't have more complex physics than Half-Life.

Most of the impressive stuff you see in Uncharted is pre-rendered. This isn't at all bad, and in fact it always looks bloody-well great, but it doesn't make it some technical marvel.

[BlackPrince 42]

Actually the Uncharted engine is a technical marvel.

The train in UC2 moves in real time, that's why aiming gets screwed up when the train turns. It's path is determined, but not pre-rendered; and the waves in UC3 that rock the ship are completely procedurally generated, meaning that each rock of the boat is different for everybody.

The biggest physics object in HL, that I can think of anyway, is the bridge section in Eps. 2, but even that was just a larger version of the seesaw physics we'd seen in HL2.

[Mr_Lu_Kim]

Uncharted...

Scripted physics and linear "on rails" games are on thing mate...

lol

[DigitalAnalog]

I don't know about scripted physics. But there's a huge difference between that and scripted set-pieces. Uncharted 2 has the latter but the physics are still realtime. Take for instance the collapsing building. The office equipment falls differently depending on their position.

[Shadowaste]

portal 2 and half life episode 2 running maxed on pc in true 1080p with 16x anti aliasing and everything looks wayyyy better than uncharted 2/3, killzone2/3, god of war 3, gears 3 easily!

it is infinately more clear, crisp and sharp and runs at well over 120 frames on even a modest rig!

[BlackPrince 42]

Putting aside the fact that if you throw enough power at anything it'll look good, imagine what uncompressed versions of Rage or Crysis would look like with two Fermis, turning up settings doesn't add detail.

If you crank up framerate, resolution, and anti-aliasing you'll get a beautiful, smooth product, but that's just tinkering on the edges if the built in assets aren't detailed. The texture detail alone on the games you've mentioned absolutely buttf@3k HLE2 and Portal 2.

It's like comparing the God of War PS3 remasters to the originals on PS2. The added power is hugely beneficial to framerate and resolution, but no one would mistake God of War 2 on the PS3 for God of War 3. The latter just has better, more detailed assets.

[gazgriff2k12]

stfu wheres half life 3

[Brownghost]

Have some patience man. They should announce new and improved left 4 dead IMO

[capcock]

Seriously what is there to improve with L4D?
it has an huge mod community and the gameplay is fun as ****.

[Hazmat13]

im guessing when valve releases a new engine they will bring out the big guns and have the first game with the new engine will be Half Life 3!

[capcock]

Source engine looks great imo.

[Brownghost]

it is

[Brownghost]

we need half life 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pjuice]

wow are these people console gamers in here? source engine came out for hl, cs, tf, then hl2 came out and with it came source engine 2.0, i think were on 2.8 now so im guessing the next huge up date will be when we hit 3.0. Wouldn't they call it source3? and please bring it before the next gen of consoles allot of laptops that aren't even made for gaming can max it out now.... i launched hl2 to replay it last year and it was running over 300fps maxed in 1080p l4d2 runs at over 200fps so gaming PC's have some headroom for engine overhauls

[TheOtherTheoG]

Actually, the Half-Life engine was GoldSrc, a modified Quake 2 engine if I recall correctly. Counter-Strike and TFC were mods built on that engine. Source was built entirely by Valve, unlike GoldSrc, for Half-Lfe 2, that was the first Source engine.

Oh, and for those doubting that Source can keep up with the modern stuff, look at Portal 2, and particularly it's lighting engine, it's one of the best out there.

[Ducky]

Well, they called it source due to the naming system of development, but it is mostly just a heavily modified version of GoldSrc.

The source engine wasn't built entirely by Valve either.

[Pjuice]

ummm were on source 2.8 or something close to that right now that was pretty much the point, the next big update sounds like it will be on version 3.0

[LewisDenby]

No, you are definitely wrong. Half-Life was built in GoldSrc, a modified Quake engine. Source debuted with HL2 and has been iterated upon ever since. The fact that Valve are talking about there being no Source 2 just yet should back this up, surely?

[Pjuice]

check l4d2 source version its 2.0.8.7, what happened to the valve updates like that btw now there doing build numbers i think the latest build is 4687, they used to do versions like the one above. ha wiki says portal 2 is running 2.0.0.1 but its build 4687 im really confused i remember when hl2 was out and everyone was talking about how good source 2.0 looked wtf? and counterstrike 1.6 then counter strike source ran on 2.0 they must of changed something.

[Sidewinder-]

...It is time.

[MeatAbstract]

I've steadily made my way through a few Valve games, especially sitting down and finally getting through Half Life 2 + Eps 1 & 2.

Personally I think the source engine is fine. Yes down the line an upgrade would be welcome but I think Valve has achieved one very simple thing with that engine: It's unique. To expand on that, Valve use that engine to the best of their abilities and they create games that are very distinctly Valve. They don't milk it and release something new every year (L4D2 the exception) and they seem to work incredibly hard with what they have.

Their perfectionists, pure and simple. I hear people bitch and say the Source Engine is outdated but, as I said, they use that create some unique experiences. You can have the best tech in the world and create a crappy game if you dunno what you're doing with it and make something bland.

[earbus]

Get used to it for 20 years as long as the gameplay stays at the high standard.

[Pintheshadows]

After Portal 2 I still think the source engine is fine. I know it's old but i'll happily play HL3 using the source engine. I still find the character models to be some of the most expressive and lifelike around. And it does everything well.

[CloseSecond]

For me Portal 2 on the PS3 looked adequate. Was certainly not the powerhouse in terms of visuals I had thought it would be. I was hoping that your character would at least cast a shadow or cause ripples in the water as she walks through puddles. Nope.

[Pintheshadows]

I'm not sure why you got the impression that Portal 2 would have amazing visuals. It's a cerebral game. It doesn't require fantastic graphics. Not every game has to be a big visual step up. I'd take 1 games by Valve on the Source engine over 100 better looking games by lesser developers. It does its job with no fuss. It is understated. It is also virtually free of bugs.

[kesvalk]

ppl don't understand the conception of engine, most ppl don't know that mario galaxy 2 is powered by the updated engine of mario 64, same with zelda twilight (that was made in updated OoT engine, that was a modified mario 64 engines O.o)

they could just keep adding functionality and new shader/effect support and they will never need to replace the engine... ever.

[ATi_Elite]

The Source Engine is very solid and looks great running at 200 FPS!

Valve has made updates with each new game and i can happily say that I'm fine with the Source Engine powering HL2 ep3 cause i'm sure some new features will be added.

Source Engine 2 will most likely power Counter Strike 2 or HL3 some time in the year 2045!

[neogeo]

Portal 2 looks much better then portal 1 and I'm very happy with it.

[EditorAtGNG]

Valve's games are a clear proof that gameplay matters more than graphics. Yes, the engine was incredible at the time Half Life 2 was released (2004) but today, what we still remember and compare Half Life 2 to is how incredibly awesome that game was... the combat, the story, the characters, the pacing, the enemies, the environment... it made FPS (gaming) rise up on a whole new level.

That is why we have to wait a long time for the third installment of Half Life... Valve is playing smart and they know their game must be earth shattering experience - like everyone's used to. I am guessing they will deliver it with a brand new iteration of their engine and like its predecessor before it, all the other games (L4D, CS, TF) will get a new face-lift as well.

I know patience is not a virtue of many gamers but damn...

[solar]

Source runs great, looks great. Good enough for me!

[SignifiedSix]

To me, the engine is still great. I don't see them creating a new engine anytime soon. Their optimization on the source engine are flawless. You can pretty much run the games on a stock walmart computer. At least i did when i had one. Now i have a 27" IMac with a 512mb ATI Radeon HD 4850 and core2duo 3.7ghz cpu. I run all the source games on max settings with a resolution of 2560x1440. I LOVE the source engine as is!

[likedamaster]

This is why Valve...

Optimization. The possibilities of how awesome Source can be are endless.

[ATi_Elite]

The Source Engine may not look like the 4A Engine or the Frostbite 2.0 Engine but it's very effective, polished, has some of the new eye candy, and generally comes bug free.

Playing Portal 2 or any HL2 title over 200 FPS the Source Engine looks good and I have no complaints. Valve said they will update as they see fit and have kept to their words cause Portal 2 looks good.

Valve = Graphics B Gameplay A+++++ and that's good enough for me.