850°

John Carmack’s next-gen console wish list

John Carmack has revealed what he wants to see hardware-wise in the next generation of consoles from Sony and Microsoft.

Read Full Story >>
beefjack.com
Why o why4659d ago (Edited 4659d ago )

It look like a pc, run like a pc...basically be a pc

still a legend though

EDIT

Definitely listen to him but there others out there that should be heard also. If we totally listened to pc guys we'd have very pc-like consoles, even more so than we do now. I still want consoles to be consoles, im not sure these guys primarily think about the costs. These guys definitely know about the innards though

Gazondaily4659d ago (Edited 4659d ago )

I would listen to this guy very carefully. He is one of the industry veterans and someone definitely gifted when it comes to programming. He knows what he is on about.

Abriael4659d ago

Easy to make "wish lists" when you don't have to pay while shopping for parts :D

jaosobno4659d ago

Honestly, I'm sick of Carmack. The guy made Doom 3 in 2004 (which was a generic shooter), and after 7 years of nothing, brings us Rage. The game looks interesting, but is hardly genre changing or revolutionary in any way.

I respect the man's intelligence, but he stopped being an authority in the field of gaming long time ago.

LightofDarkness4659d ago

JC doesn't design games, he designs engines. Creative do the rest. He is still EXTREMELY relevant when it comes to engines.

bumnut4658d ago

@jaosobno

Carmack invented FPS games, the gaming industry would not be what it is today without him.

LoVeRSaMa4658d ago

I agree with jaosobno tbh.

Rage wants very good, yet he acts like a God, he should be making better games imo (instead of trying to copy COD)

Gazondaily4658d ago

@LoverSama

Rage wasn't very good? Have you even played it?

How does someone like you get so many bubbles? Its a microcosm of the userbase on this site I think?

"he should be making better games imo (instead of trying to copy COD)"

Honestly....I reiterate, how do you have more than one bubble? You have no clue what you're on about. Copying COD? How? By making a brand new engine? Is it the fact that Rage runs at 60fps that makes you think it is a COD-clone?

Does COD have vehicular battles?

/facepalm x 9000

AKS4658d ago

How much of those thoughts about his wish list pertained to the cost of research and development of these things? One must actually pay this enormous sum to put together a console.

BubbleSniper4658d ago

tired of Carmack? then move the fuck along.

bumnut4658d ago

"he should be making better games imo (instead of trying to copy COD)"

Thats hilarious, there would be no COD if there was no Carmack.

Im guessing the people saying they are sick of him are young and do not know what he has done for the industry.

topekomsi4658d ago

@LoVeRSaMa

First off wouldn't Cod be copying him, being that he INVENTED the fps, and i may be mistaken but isn't the CoD engine based on id tech 3?

Ch1d0r14658d ago

I didn't really care about JC till i saw the quake engine tree, that will show you how all these dick heads around here how relevant he is.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 4658d ago
WANNAGETHIGH4659d ago

Dont worry carmack Sony will show u how is done again next gen.

Iamback4659d ago

Sony?
Cell was a disaster bro
Just ask 3rd party. Cell is the reason why 360 won and took such a huge market share from Sony.

Isis064659d ago (Edited 4659d ago )

That's exactly why they will step up there game.

death2smoochie4659d ago

Sony did not show anyone anything but developer headaches. The PS3 was powerful but Sony's developer tools and hardware design choice was not exactly the wisest choice.
Now take a look at the Vita and that is how Sony should have built the PS3: Developer friendly and still powerful

gamingdroid4658d ago (Edited 4658d ago )

PS3's individual parts are good, not necessarily together in that design.

That is why the difference in processing power is huge, yet the actual practical result is negligible while the price gap initially was humongous between the Xbox 360 and PS3.

Hardware these days is increasingly a software optimization problem, a far cry from previous generations.

Bolts4658d ago

Well they certainly show him how it's NOT done this gen.

_Aarix_4654d ago

Which there was a "facepalm" button or a "dumbass" one

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 4654d ago
Sashamaz4658d ago Show
Machioto4658d ago

@Death Sony dev tools were still maturing that's why it was problematic for some dev because they created thier own architetcure.

@iambck Yeah,the cell had problems but that was the early days now some people are finding a use for it like dice,valve,who had a similar stance as carmack, those guy that did "saboteur" tried mlaa anti aliasing technique,I think his complaint is that thier is only one ppe in the ps3 so you have take advantage of the spu,maybe if ps4 had 3-4 cells and you could bypass the spu and use just the ppe and abetter gpu everything should be fine.

Ju4658d ago

There are a couple of problems with the CELL compared to modern ways of writing engines.

Today, a lot is pushed onto the GPU using shaders (or compute targets, e.g. OpenCL for physics or even AI).

Now, this is not so bad for the CELL. SPUs can manage a lot of that. However, a problem there is you have to shovel data from VRAM to sysram and back again, mostly setting up complicated DMA lists, schedule that properly, etc.

The SPUs have some advantages over pure shaders (even in the latest generation) that they can be simply setup and programmed in C++. Much more elegant than shaders and easier to program for - plus flexible enough to use ASM to optimize if needed. But, it is just not easy to, e.g. fetch a texture from VRAM, apply a filter and notify the GPU. You'd have to write some complicated mem transfer mechanism, which should be transparent, fast and in sync with the GPU. Not an easy task - possible, see Dice's deferred implementation (or other exclusive titles).

Well, and the other thing is, splitting parts of your code now does not only require to have portions in scalar code (which runs on the CPU) and shader code, now you have a 3rd component which runs on SPU. Ideally, you would simply have one compile target; one execution unit (more like a CPU executing int,fp and sse/vmx/neon instructions, now extended with shaders, too. Shaders can't really be merged into the CPU (just yet), but eventually everything will just be a "compute target" and your compiler will generate code for the best suited execution unit (in that case, SPUs could be "virtualized").

Well, lately, it looks like devs get a hang of using CPU, SPUs and shaders on the PS3. But at the same time, this is a little too late. Modern CPU/GPU combos outperform the CELL by far today.

I would rather say, its all in the tools. Machines are fast enough now (soon), everything could become a virtual platform. Going down to the metal will always be faster, though. And sometimes a convenient programming model (which Carmack - like any other coder - likes so much) is often not the highest performing one.

MagicAccent4658d ago

@jaosobno
You know nothing.

Carmack "invented" the FPS as we know it today. So sit the hell down, listen and learn.

Godmars2904658d ago

Might be a legend but that doesn't make him any less annoying as far as I'm concerned.

He hasn't done jack this generation for consoles but complain about them.

kaveti66164658d ago (Edited 4658d ago )

The code he wrote and the techniques he invented permeates through many engines.

What he did for this gen of consoles he did years ago.

He's always ahead.

TheDivine4658d ago

I dont find him annoying at all, maybe these dumb articles twisting something he said but not him. I watched a 45 min interview of him and it felt like 5 minutes because he's so knowledgable and passionate about everything. The guy interviewing hi would ask something and get a 10 min answer lol. He kept trying to speed him up but couldnt get a word in because he just talks and talks. Carmack's the shi*. His last gen engines still power some of the top games this gen.

Bolts4658d ago

Oh he only created the entire FPS universe as we know it. Everytime you play online, everytime you capture the flag, everytime you log into Steam, everytime you play CoD. Hell, everytime you play a FPS with textures. All came from Carmack's Quake.

Yeah let's not listen to him because he hasn't done anything "this gen".

Godmars2904658d ago

How about not listening to him because you're not that much of a FPS - or first person perspective fan - in general. Really don't like see where programmers like Carmack, in my opinion, are needlessly pushing the industry. Are making other generas of gaming harder to make while also turning the one they're focused on less rewarding.

I mean there is a point that I will just stop gaming if this keeps up.

madpuppy4658d ago

it's funny, you guys will hang on everything that foul mouthed Jaffe says but, when a polite developer that has actually effected the industry profoundly answers questions you bad talk him...pathetic.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 4658d ago
InNomeDiDio4658d ago

To all the Guys that think Carmack doesn't know what he's talking about ... do you Guys really know how amazing the Megatexture-Technology of ID-Tech5 is?
I doubt that. On a decent PC Rage will be a Beast and will of course set new standards according to whole environment Texturing.

pain777pas4658d ago

No one can dispute his track record, influence and genius. No doubt about it. He is relevant pioneer like Miyamoto, Will Wright, Sid Meyer, Molyneux and Kojima. A company would not be wise to not listen to his suggestions because that is all they are for better or worse. Having restrictions cause innovation too though. We have to remember when limited hardware is pushed like GOW on PS2, Star fox on SNES or Virtua Racing on the Genesis that is when we can see the benefits to certain hardware decisions. We need constraint sometimes. Some interchangeable parts like ram and HD would be nice though in future consoles.

subtenko4658d ago

Wish list? Can we get an earthquake defensive mechanism on the ps4? It can be an optional add-on to stabilise the area around the ps4. Shouldnt cost no more than $9,938,395,384 and hey look on the bright side...you know the ps4 will actually be able to float then :D

Yea, who else survived the earthquake today? (eastcoast) x)

+ Show (6) more repliesLast reply 4654d ago
iamnsuperman4659d ago

This is the problem with wish lists. We can wish for the impossible but when it comes down to it the manufacturers have to look what is cost effective. I am interested in where they go or if the next gen will truly be revolutionary or are we going to wait another generation before major changes happen

Off topic but related to the article: Why is PS3 and Intel in bold

Voxelman4658d ago

His "wish list" is pretty reasonable TBH he doesn't even ask for anything specific except a 64-bit universally addressable memory architecture.

xX_Altair_Xx4659d ago

I was thinking the same thing. I remember saying this in another article: PC gamers' main criticism of consoles is that they're not PCs.

Also I'd like to see this guy design a console and see if he still keep it within mass market price. I'm pretty sure Sony/MS/Nintendo would know more than him in this area.

testerg354658d ago

Well Sony did release at $600... Not sure how within mass market price that is.

xX_Altair_Xx4658d ago

^

That should tell you just how hard it is to design a powerful console and keep it within a reasonable price.

Ju4658d ago (Edited 4658d ago )

I wouldn't think so. He (briefly) mentioned Larrabee and "many cores". That is so not-PC. All in all, he wants a fusion of GPU and CPU with plenty of parallel horsepower.

That would sure be a nice platform, but Larrabee is dead, and he doesn't want the CELL either. The only other architecture going into this direction is AMD's Fusion - but not sure how far they are integrating CPU/GPU (e.g. stream processors and scalar ALUs in one chip, tightly interconnected/integrated). Nobody else is working on anything like it. A CELL could possibly made, which merges SPUs with stream processors (and make them super SPUs) and/or additional fixed HW units for fast TL operations and some more scalar cores - and a unified memory controller - which in return would mean its no CELL any more. Really, these are the only two who could deliver something like that.

So, I would think, the next gen will still be a CPU/GPU combo.

BTW: Vita breaks his unified memory wishes right there. Again has sys/vram separate 512/128MB). It is a challenge to have a unified system and max out the bandwidth at minimal costs.

bozebo4658d ago

Another possibility is sli or crossfire of 2 custom mid-range chips. The problem with high-end graphics chips in relation to the design of next gen consoles is their heat output - which means the cases need better airflow, harming the process of making the devices compact for cost effectiveness and product appeal.

64bit shared address space is very likely to be the given standard without any problems. As far as guantity goes, 2GB of high bandwidth GDDR5 or similar memory would suite them very well. Some games need a lot of ram simply through design, like Mount and Blade or minecraft. Imagine what dynasty warriors will be like with 2GB of RAM and next-gen cpu speed - if they don't just make exactly the same game again :P

ThanatosDMC4658d ago

Pretty much a PC. Who doesn't have multiple cores/threads CPU nowadays?

Ju4658d ago (Edited 4658d ago )

I think people do not understand what a "64bit unified memory" means. He wants the same addresses mapped between CPU and GPU.

Why? Because you can use the CPU to read e.g. vertex or pixel (or any other) data (z-buffer, motion data, etc), modify what you want, and hand it over to the GPU without initiating a memory transfer. Perfect for a all kind of things; mostly what we do today with deferred renderers.

No system does this today. No PC and no console. SLI is way to far away - which needs to merge memory banks across PCIe, for example (or how ever they do that). This is a complete new architecture.

bozebo4657d ago (Edited 4657d ago )

The virtual address space is unified in PCs. Which is why you get way less than 4GB under 32 bit because it needs to map the VRAM under the same address space.

He said "virtual address space".

Next gen consoles probably won't be needing to do much graphical workload on the CPU anyway, the CPUs will probably only get slightly more powerful while the GPU should be 5 or 6 times as powerful as the current gen.

Deferred rendering was a good solution for the performance balance on current consoles (great with the 360's eDRAM) but it wont be something that is done too much in the future.

SLI/Xfire stores a duplicate copy of the same memory, they can probably avoid needing to do that if they design custom hardware (which tends to be done for consoles). I can't see any other viable way of consoles supporting true next-gen graphics without burning up like happened this gen... one powerful chip would mean far too much localised heat. Unless ATI have secret technology again that they will share with MS.

NewVegasTroop4658d ago

that would brake the meaning of "consoles"

cliffbo4658d ago

@bozebo

no he wants an Intel based console with a ms OS with direct x which is easy to program.lol

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 4657d ago
Malice-Flare4659d ago

multi-core CPU with GPU...
unified 64-bit memory space...
lots of bus bandwidth...

i think Sony and MS can design that. it's just the additional features that each may offer will be the deciding factors for the cost of materials...

EverydayGuy4658d ago

I think Sony will keep the Cell in the PS4. They already bought the manufacturing plant from IBM, and they invested a couple billion dollars on it. The Developers are probably use to it by now.

Show all comments (84)
30°

10 Biggest Xbox Mistakes of All Time (So Far)

The Xbox brand has done a lot of good over the years, but their various blunders are pretty wild to look back on in their magnitude.

Read Full Story >>
culturedvultures.com
piroh16h ago(Edited 16h ago)

Ironically number 9 can save them at this point (releasing games on multiple platforms)

140°

Sony CEO says although AI "has been used for creation," it's "not a substitute for human creativity"

"AI is not a substitute for human creativity. We position it as a technology that supports creativity. Creativity resides in people. We will continue to contribute to people's creativity through technology," the CEO said.

Read Full Story >>
gamesradar.com
1nsomniac1d 13h ago (Edited 1d 13h ago )

...not yet but 100% within the next 10 years!

..Then Sony will use it like the drop of a hat. They're no different to the others.

isarai1d 11h ago (Edited 1d 11h ago )

They used to be 😞 sure it was always a business, and money's always the priority, but they used to have a very strong stance on supporting artists and creativity. "Dont f#@k with the artist" was a phrase they touted a few times back in the ps1-ps3 era, a philosophy carried over from their music branch PlayStation was created from. It's not COMPLETELY gone, but it's barely there compared to what it was back then, i just want them to return to that.

Eonjay16h ago(Edited 16h ago)

I am highly encouraged by their statement about human creativity. "Dont f#@k with the artist" is exactly what they are saying. But at the same time, I don't think people understand that Sony is a corporation. If they don't realize growth, they don't get to exist. When you say 'Sony', you are talking about a bunch of investors. To speak about them any other way is a illogical and incorrect. They haven't changed. They have been a group of investors since they became a public business.

isarai1d 3h ago

Ugh, i really wish people would stop gambling people's livelihoods by turning a project/game into their political soapbox. Im all for statements and having your own opinion, but there's more people working on this than just druckman, ham fisting your political beliefs onto just seems inconsiderate for everyone elses job security when it can result in a failure due to people avoiding it for that reason.

I play games for escape, im so tired of nearly every AAA game blatantly dragging real world issues to shove in my face when I'm trying to take a break from it all. They don't even bother to be subtle about it, quite the opposite, it's blasted and force fed to you and it's just getting exhausting

Einhander197218h ago

People are taking a whole interview and cutting it down to clips that make him look bad and take what he actually was saying out of context. For example he also said things like this AI has "ethical issues we need to address"

-Foxtrot17h ago

@Einhander

Why defend him at this point?

It’s not taking things out of context, he said what he said.

Old ND would never talk about soulless AI taking over so many creative things they are well known for. The whole “ethical issues” is just a good PR spin people who push this crap fall back on to make their statements not seem as bad. So many AI lovers do this.

AI has no place is so many creative based things.

Einhander197218h ago

Well yeah, because everyone else is using it so they need to stay competitive. It's the same as paid online, they didn't want to go that route but their competition was making so much money they needed to add paid online just to keep up.

RaiderNation15h ago(Edited 15h ago)

AI will never replace humans in game development in terms of conceptualizing new games. Humans still need to come up with the ideas and what they want to implement. However much of the day to day menial coding could be AI driven to reduce production time and team size. I could also see AI being used for bug testing/optimization that could lead to better quality games at launch. I'm actually very optimistic about how AI can positively impact game development.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 15h ago
XiNatsuDragnel1d 11h ago

Good statement but hopefully this holds up

NotoriousWhiz17h ago

People that aren't software developers just don't understand the benefits of AI. People who's only exposure to A.I is the Terminator movie and other related sci fi films won't understand the benefits it provides.

It's not about replacing human labor. It's about making human labor easier.

Many years ago, I had laser eye surgery done. It was performed by a robot. The doctor took my measurements and calibrated the machine to make sure it would do what needed be done. And then the robot corrected my vision in 10 seconds.

15 years later and I still have 20/20 vision.

Eonjay16h ago

AI in and of itself is not a 'bad'. Money is bad. Money is evil, and corporations will do whatever they can to get more of it. They will find ways to implement AI to replace as may jobs as possible. This isn't even up for debate. It is the charge of the corporation to maximize returns for the investors. They have no choice. I'm a developer and I know that my job will absolutely be replaced. Therefore, I have decided to become an AI dev. AI has a lot of potential to help us solve problem on a scale most can't even imagine. The issue, as ever is that our monetary system only ever allows us to focus on greed and fiscal growth.

But I am a pragmatist. Perhaps an AI model can be built to help protect us from our most dangerous instincts and habits. And perhaps Congress can pass laws to protect us from people who would use AI to manipulate and control us (spoiler: they wont).

RaiderNation3h ago(Edited 3h ago)

Progress is inevitable. Nobody driving cars today is complaining that the horse and buggy is no longer around. Yes, some jobs will be lost but guess what? With innovation comes new job opportunities. It's how the cycle of the job market works.

150°

Microsoft to Add Copilot AI to Video Games

Microsoft recently revealed its plans to incorporate Copilot directly into video games, with Minecraft being the first showcased example.

Read Full Story >>
xpgained.co.uk
Fishy Fingers4d ago (Edited 4d ago )

F*** AI

"Hey Copilot, what's a good meme to prove I dislike AI".... https://giphy.com/clips/sou...

Einhander19724d ago

Two trillion dollar company that just can't wait to put as many people possible out of work as fast as possible.

It feels like every single thing they do is making gaming worse and destroying the industry.

4d ago
4d ago
4d ago
darthv723d ago

....you know it takes people to program the AI.... right? It isnt like it is sentient. We haven't reach skynet level of situation or anywhere close to the matrix just yet.

That's next Thursday.

Einhander19723d ago (Edited 3d ago )

It takes a people to program the AI then that AI is used for who knows how many games eliminating countless jobs which only grows as AI is used for more and more game creation functions.

What you're saying is so ridiculously short sighted and truly larking any kind of understanding and foresight.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 3d ago
CaptainFaisal3d ago

Why all the hate? Im actually excited about this! Always wanted this kind of immersion, and an AI companion with me all the time helping me out knowing the status of my skills/inventory/progress and giving me tips on the best approach or how to craft something specific is game changing for the industry.

Hate all you want about AI, but this is just the start and I can see the potential already. You wont be complaining in the next 5-10 years about this, but rather complain if a game hasn’t implemented it.

MrDead3d ago

Yes we can't wait for the work of others to be used without the need to pay them so that MS can profit even more from the people they fire.

I_am_Batman3d ago (Edited 3d ago )

There is no chance I'd ever use something like this, especially if it's not part of the core game design, but a layer on top of it. It's way too much handholding. Many games already feel like busy work, because they don't let the player figure things out on their own. Having a real-time interactive guide defeats the purpose of playing the game in the first place in my opinion.

If this were to become the standard like you predict, we'll see more and more video games get away with bad design, because people will just be used to ask for help from the AI companion anyway.

Number1TailzFan3d ago

Well Nintendo don't need this with some of their games these days, with invincible characters, items, easy bosses etc.. they do the hand holding built in

helicoptergirl3d ago

Takes "hand holding" in games to a whole new level.

BlackDoomAx2d ago

Because human nature xD Almost every new technology had these kind of comments.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 2d ago
Show all comments (19)