Is PS3 Programming Really More Difficult?

This question has come up in GamePro and also on the new Sony (US) PS3 blog.According to Sony programming the PS3 can be more complex than the 360 but this is due to the Cell having more capabilities. This (sort of) matches what is said in the article and does seem to be a more general consensus.

[PimpHandHappy]

just lead to advancemments!

good read

[SonySoldiers]

True! It's so advanced so that it can produce complex AI & physics at 60FPS and beyond. Viva la SONY.. arigato gozamasta!

Thanks to the incredible Sony Playstation 3! Sony's fans are the happiest gamers in the universe.

DON'T STOP PRAISING ON SONY PLAYSTATION 3! We have to win again.

[Real Gambler]

And most programmers are like most people, when they are used to one CPU, they like to stick with it. Switching to multiple cores (or cell) is scary for most of them.

YET, we have a new game on PSN right now that is a ONE MAN JOB. Everyday Shooter was all done by a single guy. Programming, music, art, etc. Is he a super genius? No, he just sat down and learned how to program the cell.

Luckily, he's not alone. Many great games are coming out. So eventually, more and more programmers will get used to the cell. In a few years from now, nobody will say it's hard to program. It will just be different.

[ATLRoAcH]

Works differently then a standard computer processor.A standard processor
has to go through a lot more tasks to process info.The cell eliminates a lot of those tasks requiring less memory and that produces lightning fast processing.Because of this it makes programming for the cell different from all other processors which is where the learning curve comes in to play.

[Enigma_2099]

... new hardware always takes time to learn. This is nothing new.

[Blitzed]

Its guys like you that made me invent a D!ck Dongle so all you fanboys can blow your consoles!

I am gonna be rich. I alraedy got preorders from The Mart, Bloodmask and Nasim. Jump In and really Play B3yond!!

[DarkArcani]

I agree. Very interesting read. Some jargon if your not a techy, but it still makes sense.

Both cpus are good gaming cpus, no doubt about that.

[SofaKingReetodded]

they both do the job but the difference is that the 360 runs games as good as we have known them and the PS3 will run games as we envision them.

[Daytona]

No wait, it's more like "The ps3 can play great games, but the Xbox 360 can produce great games that are great".

Please stop w/the ps3 is mightier than thow. Or this wait wait the ps3 will come into it's own, that's all we hear, just wait until........................

Gaming machines should have great games for it from day one, should they get better with time? Yes, of course but don't make excuses for it as with the ps3. It's a strugling machine to use/program for and games have suffered and that's mostly because of a lack of free memory to program with.

yes by the time the ps3 has been replaced by a ps4 if that ever happens, we'll see great games for it but by then why the hell shouldn't you see them. It seems about 4 years is needed to truly make a great ps3 games as w/KZ2 and MGS4 and even then there suffering in the development process and may have big weakness in actual game play.
Time will tell and oh boy will it tell.

Will sony use an advanced cell in it's PS4?? If they do they better make it a unified arch. and enable user friendly memory flows, other wise same problems again.

Ok, sony fans, go ahead Make excuses now.

[Ju]

The shared memory is not the problem. It simply the amount you cannot balance between the RSX and the CPU. If you need more general purpose RAM (for your code), you can't. Not the texture memory or what not, the RSX can fetch textures from XDRAM. 512MB XDRAM could have simply solved this problem.

But, it will never be enough. At the time you have a machine with more RAM, you will want to use 150% again. That's just how it is. (well, maybe there is a threshold which would works, like 2Gigs or so). But it does not mean, that you can't get the thing work with 256 if you use a different approach. Its just very convenient to use the memory (as an excuse and) to fill it up with data to have 'em handy. Streaming (or paging) could solve that, but needs some thinking. You need to know what you need quickly and what you can load "interleaved". Well, we SW people still get payed pretty good. I think that has a reason, too. Use your brain.

[demolitionX]

You are always informative and helpful. I wish to hear from 360 , someone who talks scientifically unbiased, not just stupid BS.

[Bathyj]

I dont know, lets ask Media Molecule with their team of under a dozen who have never made a commercial game why they can do it, but a colossus juganaught like EA cant.

Makes you think some spread themselves out to thin.

Jack of all trades, Master of none.

[felman87]

didn't media molecule make kung-fu chaos or something? We should ask them about that.

[WAR_MACHINE77]

no Ninja Theory made that game back when they were Just Add Monsters

[Genki]

You're thinking of Rag-doll Kung-fu for PC, that was MM's claim to fame before LBP.

[felman87]

Holy ****in old article

[ATLRoAcH]

But I seen it in the tips (thanks feejo) and thought that after that assassin's creed article it was an appropriate read. Not only is this article good but the whole site has a lot of information on it. With a name like PS3coderz.com I guess thats what one should expect.

[kss]

is the ps3 is more complex thab that piece of cow dung?

yes it is because its better people.

[kss]

is the ps3 is more complex than that piece of cow dung?

yes it is because its better people.

[mesh1]

ok ill explain to u what game atm uses 3or 4 core processor ?most next gen games use 1 processor so if u think any Dev will make a game that uses 6or 7 processor that wud be to far fetched so no game in the next 4 years will use that amount of processing power only when games get to a new generation they wud this is were the ps3 problem comes its other properties e.x ps3 gpu ps3 memory wont is lacking atm so it will not out last it cell proccessor,so what u end up with in 2010 with the ps3 is a good processor but crap ram+ gpu so it still wont be powerful i believe in 10 years time ps3 games will still look like 360 games

[Kirderf]

I think the games on the PS3 are gonna surpass the 360 in graphics, size, etc. But it will not be right now, maybe 1-2 years we will see great advancements with the PS3. So there's really no need to buy a PS3 now, I think you can atleast wait to buy one until KZ2 is realesed, unless you're dying to play Warhawk, Resistance, Motorstorm, with more.

I'm very excited to see how the games are gonna be in the future for the PS3:)

And that thing with the PS3 RAM, I'm pretty sure they will come with a smart solution.

[gerrard]

Just look at games like HS, COD 4 & R&C TOD for example and with uncharted drakes fortune on the way nothing on x360 comes close

[Sayai jin]

@Kiderf, nice points, but if you do not have enough memory then you just don't have enough memory.

@Gerrard- whats you say is debatable. I have HS and have only seen trailers for the rest of the games on my comp. So I can only comment on HS (out of the games you mentioned before). While HS has good graphics it does not match games like Gears of War and Bioshock in the graphics department.

Back on topic, yes I believe it may be more difficult to program for now, but this wll change. This process will go a lot faster if Sony created or creates better dev tools. The PS3 tech will be exploited and games will pay and look a lot better than they do now.

[funkysolo]

you xbots are such idiots. The problem with PS3 is if a game starts on 360 and gets ported to PS3, the game engine doesn't work as well because of the difference in the machine. The 360 is relys on the gpu more than the PS3 were it relys more on the Cell. So since 360 all memory is in one location and PS3 is in 2 locations...PS3 is a real nextgen console which once developer take full advantage of all the cell and rsx games are going to have better A.I., physics, animation, detail. We already seen how terrible the A.I.,physics,animation is on halo3 and the game runs 640p24fps...A 3rd gen game running on SDTV is terrible and only let us know that the 360 is a weaker machine than thought before..No game on PS3 will ever run less than 720p,,,NEVER

You xbots keep bring up Gears of War a title that got release a year ago, but yet no other title on the 360 even comes close to those graphics, while the PS3 has several games on par or better in it's 10month lifespan. Look at Rachet and Clank 720p60fps what game on 360 looks that good and run at 60fps....NONE!!! in 10months PS3 has outdone the 360 that has been out for 2 years. You idiots keep saying PS3 doesn't have any games, I been playing alot of games on my PS3. the only games that are not on PS3 are bioshock(pc) and powerranger3 which sucks(I did finish it)....So if those games don't interest me then I guess the Ps3 is the logical choice for me..PLAY B3YOND idiots

[xplosneer]

True, but, like the Xbox 360, there are updates that reduce the required RAM for OS. I remember about a month ago Sony released Dev tool 1.8 which did this, now they just need to update the PS3 to make it real.

[Mwaan]

The single greatest quote in the history of N4G. What's with all the hostility guys? I think we're reaching a point where it's almost impossible to determine which game has better graphics. There's to much to consider. Framerate, art style, resolution, load times, draw distance, pop-in, lighting, etc. You can't look at a screenshot anymore and determine whether or not it looks better than something else. Opinions are not facts people. The Halo bashing has to stop. Whether you want to admit it or not, it's a technological marvel. How many games let you jump in and drive any vehicle on the battlefield for what seems like miles while fighting more enemies than you can count? Not many. And one last thing. If there were 2 televisions with Halo 3 running on them side by side, one had 720p and the other had 640p, would you bet your life that you could tell the difference? I seriously doubt it.

[Charlie2688]

This type of articles takes me down memory lane to the days of "Does PS2 difficult development worth it for developers over the Dreamcast´s easier development process?" articles

and oh boy did those discussions got heated

[Skerj]

Yeah and I was a staunch Dreamcast supporter too and look what happened :/

[Jamaicangmr]

Ahhhh! The good old days of PS2 will fail because it's too difficult to program for. Yes i remember these days as well my friend and now i look back an smile. Specially when i read simular articles about the PS3.

[Snukadaman]

it was from june 14th...wth

[VaNdAl]

http://www-128.ibm.com/deve...

[SaMiR111]

sonyfan boys again.

[VaNdAl]

http://www.blachford.info/c...

[feejo]

I am the one that post that new how come it got someone else name? Grrr.
Devepers shoud catch up with themselve, they are really behind with their "3D" games. Super mario bros 3 look more real than most 3d games, cause you do not get dizzy looking at mario it goes from let to right, not all direaction and you feel you are in a roller coaster.

Programmer really suck, cames are hugly with their HUGLY polygons, with those polygons a hand dose not look like a hand a hand is now a square (like FF7) that is bs. Camera moving all aroud that suck alot, cause there is no stream. C'mon just take the technology and kick your own ass. And stop copy each other games.

What I am talking about, I am not talking about game that graphic is good like Grand Turismo. But all the other's. Just a reality test, turn toward a wall, walk slow in front of until you reach a inch. Take any any video game with a caracter moving around, turn in wall move forward go as close as you can. What do you see, any difference? In real life: you see more delais you did not see while you where far right, that is great. What about the game, what do you see: you see only the same thing you saw when you where away except the squares are way bigger. That suck, that is NOT REAL. All games dose that.

Did you saw hairs in any video games, only Heavenly Sword get them a little more realistic, otherwise that is just bunch of polygons to me.

When I see hairs I want them look like hairs, when I go closer to a wall I want to see more details not less. I want real photo in video games, not syntecize bs. When I play I want to be there, not like being there, just be there.I want game that look like when I watch a tv. They do not need more definition, look my tv it is a tube tv, look at news people look real, they are not polygons. We don't need higher definition. You just need to work on colors not definitions. Different colors that what the eye see: colors reflected, we want millions of color in the a games. Just take real pictures of life and put it into games. when I watch cnn and they show war somewhere it look 1000 more real than any video game, and it is not hi definition. It suppose to but just differents color's not bunch of polygons.

Use the dam techonology, be creative, create a chef d'oeuvre. That is what games deseerve not less.

[Scythesean]

You know Bono is #2 right? Why do you think the band is called U2?

[Grim]

@gerrard
COD 4 is a mulitplatform release on PS3, 360 and PC so if the PS3 is so much better how come the 360 is doing this game?

[funkysolo]

Oh by the way didn't the 360 have like 10 PS2 ports last year Gun, madden, tomb raider? I hope this gives you an idea.

[Ju]

I think not only CoD4, but also Assassins Creed is impressive. And that also runs on the 360. I think the 360 is an impressive machine, at least what they squeeze out of it. I am curious to see, if that will change, or if either side is holding back.
Currently I think they reach their max. And I don't think they have total freedom to favor a platform (to just not piss off the other side...you need support from both, Sony and M$ if you want to be successful in the long run).
But over time there will be subtle differences, I suppose. Simply because there also will be pressure from exclusive studios.

My personal believe is, that the CELL has more potential. But, as the PS2 example shows, you can squeeze a lot out an underpowered machine.

The funny thing is, on the PS3 you'll go back to SW rendering (in some respect). Something we though is over because of powerful GPUs. But even GPUs go more and more the programmable route. The idea of the SPUs will pay off, because it will allow SW flexibility with a fixed HW feature set. Something which PCs can only reach thru constant HW upgrades. And a little bit of that mindset is in the Xbox. M$ will force you to upgrade again...

[Salvadore]

This article is old: Thursday, 14 June 2007

[xg-ei8ht]

Your talk about gears of war.

I played the ut3 demo last night on pc.

Owns gears with ease.

More going on, better graphics.

Looks incredible, just like r&c uncharted. gt5.

If you can't see that, then you need glasses.

Bioshock is very much a closed enviroment.

[Daytona]

I think your brain is a closed environment.

GoW looks better than UT III to me. UT III moves quickly and you don't see the details you see in GoW. Yes, UT is a great game no doubting that though.

Everything else you said is just BS. As I said "Closed Environment".

[funkysolo]

Let's give you the benifit of doubt...Gears of War looks better than anything on consoles right, 2nd gen game.(let's go with that)How come in 2 years since the 360 has been out no other game has even come close to gears of war or surpassed it.(let's think for a minute about that) Halo3 a 3rd gen game runs at 640p24fps which is consider SDTV and has all the terrible frame rate, A.I.,physics,animation than any PS3 game(any)......Let's take it a different turn now...PS3 has been out for 10months and yet has release Heavenly sword, Rachet and Clank,Uncharted, sigma, 4 games that Surpass gears of war in graphics...Let's even get in deeper....Killzone2, MGS, FF13, GT5, LBP are coming in months, graphically better than gears of war....where are all the 360 games that are suppose to advance graphics not hold them back.

You can only eat sh1t so much before you throw up

[Jdoki]

I don't think it's necessarily 'harder' to program for the Cell, it just comes down to a few simple things, which are all wrapped up in business decisions.

- Profit vs Budget vs Time vs Tools

To make a game takes time; time costs money; the better the tools the quicker a game can be made; the less time it takes the less money it costs and the lower the budget is; the bigger the install base and the lower the cost of development the more profit can potentially be made.

Simple eh? :)

So if the PS3 had a bigger install base and better tools, developers wouldn't be complaining about how hard it is to dev for. If publishers could afford to give developers more time/money, then the adjustment wouldn't be as painful and the results would be better.

A CPU is a CPU really, regardless of bells and whistles. I spent 3 years to coding on different platforms (non-gaming), and if you 'get' how to code, then generally it doesn't take much time to adjust between platforms if the tools are good.

This is where the 360 has some advantage, not in technical terms, but in install base and familiarity. Developers don't need as much time to adjust as the 360 and PC are similar platforms. The tools are good, and the install base is high (especially if you add PC and 360 units). So it makes sense to lead on the PC or 360 then port to PS3.

Another issue with PS3 development is the apparent superiority the PS3 has over the 360. As an owner of both 360 and PS3 I can say that (in general) at this stage in it's life PS3 first/second party titles look better than the 360's at the same point in it's life. And as a gaming neutral with no allegiance to either camp, I think the gap between PS3 and 360 will widen in the PS3's favour over each console's lifespan.

But this throws up another problem... There's less profit to be made from exclusive titles these days, so multi-platform is the way to go. However if the PS3 becomes the lead platform you have a number of problems all based around the superiority of the PS3 hardware... Basically, it is harder to port a title from PS3 to 360 and PC. Especially if developers start using a few 'tricks' based around the SPE's and if Sony pulls it's finger out and provides better tools.

The bottom line is, the PS3 may end up being held back in terms of multi-platform titles (which will be the majority of titles), and until it's install base makes exclusive's a profitable consideration the PS3 will remain 'hard' to develop for.

[IntelligentAj]

One of the best posts I've read on this site.

[Silvia007]

can't compare PC to 360. PC will kick the living balls out of the 360 any day. Guys who claim how great Gears graphics looks don't have a PC or one that is struggling to view N4G.com.

[Bazookajoe_83]

But untill the developpers get´s some experience in programing for the ps3 it will be hard for them. Maybe if they got +5 developpers tools from the mountain of Arhasneindale, you know where the mighty dwarves lives. Then they just have to slay some dragons, gain some xp, and have someone in there team to cast a level 12 develop boost. Peace of cake ;-)

[SofaKingReetodded]

are code monkeys who have been trained on MS "development tools" and have no idea how to build a game from the ground up, engine and all.

This is why Sony have invested already a few million into adapting the Unreal 3 engine to the PS3, it is a popular platform and will open up the PS3 to many more devs and titles as dictated by logic.

[Bolts]

The problem is...the UT3 engine isn't exactly suited to the Cell's strong points. They should've invested money in Carmack's new engine.

[SofaKingReetodded]

while the Unreal Engine is, I think the Doom 3 engine had maybe 3 or 4 titles while UT:3 scores at least 50 maybe a 100 titles. NO contest.

Carmack's engines are extremely heavy on the backend not to mention Epic has a more attractive licensing package.

@below
ha me n my son can't stop playing FIFA 08 and R&C:TOD, the ADDICTING games are starting to arrive for the PS3. It's going to be a VERY interesting xmas race. One that may see Sony come out of the other side of that tunnel the leader in this race. If that happens I think every single xbot on this site will suddenly develop an allergy to N4G.

[Tsukasah]

Interesting read... Welp, back to Folklore! Love that game!!!

[DFresh]

I do think the PS3 is more complex to master but that gives developers a challenge and that's what you want when trying to master your craft.
As far as I've seen the only people that have had problems making games on the PS3.

[gololo]

it's probably a big learning curve for devs to work with multiple cores and maximize their usage, but once devs master it the results will be breathtaking, this reminds my early years in High School, I took a VB class and liked a lot, when I took my C++ class, I hated because it was way more complex, but once I learned C++ I never even looked back at VB.

[Ju]

The VB analogy is kind of hitting the nail on the head. Some company spent years to make people believe programming is click and point. Now, all of a sudden you need to learn programming if you want to get across the boundaries the click and point lays out for you. And, well, people do complain. Sure, all of a sudden all this marketing talk doesn't work any more. Knowledge is power. Some people forgot that in exchange of convenience. But convenience makes fat and lazy - that's even the reason why they don't feed elephants on one spot: They would simply stop to walk.
I am living in the drive thru country. Very convenient to get food, money dry cleaner and what not without leaving the car. Sometimes you gotta get out, though. And that's a good thing.

[illizit]

Your absolutely correct. I have been used to the 'Microsoft' way of programming, with easy to use API (.net framework, etc) and programming in c++. I tried to make a program under linux for fun and learning pleasure and guess what? Night and day difference and it's still the same programming language! C++!! When game developers program for the 360 (xna framework, etc) they fall in love. It's very easy to use when compared to the ps3 or any other platform however because of XNA you cannot simply port code over to other platforms, you are also limited by the framework instead of the hardware. (The hardware may be able to perform more however you may not be able to 'tell' the hardware to work harder because of strict instructions Microsoft poses). You basically have a free environment when working on the PS3 which I guess you can say makes it harder however you can achieve more. Porting the UT3 engine I believe is a good start for the "Drive-through" developers.
Play b3yond...

[Pain]

......

[DJ]

though not as much as Emotion Engine. When you throw normal code at cell, it still runs pretty fast, even if you're not allocating specific SPEs or manually directing the Local Storage. But if developers fail to use what's there, specifically the FlexI/O connection between the XDR and GDDR3 memory pools (7 DVDs worth of data per second), then they really shouldn't expect to compete with the likes of Gran Turismo, Heavenly Sword, Uncharted, or Killzone 2.

Look up the game Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom. That game uses all 6 SPUs, as well as the PPU.

Now compare that to Killzone 2, which only uses 4 SPUs as of right now (the other two have yet to be implemented) and the PPU.

It's not enough to simply port over current code and current techniques; programmers need to take a step back and really learn the architecture. It was hard enough for them to figure out the 360, so I understand why learning the PS3 is such a pain for multiplats. If a developer doesn't care too much about heavy physics/AI/graphics processing, than the 360 is obviously a lot easier since it allows for old programming techniques that worked in the PC arena. However, for developers that care a lot about the technical performance of their titles and want full control over every memory transfer, code execution, and the benefit of working on the highest performance architecture in the entire industry, then PS3 is the only way to go.

Here's some cool things PS3 is pulling off that have never been accomplished on any other title:

True Volumetric rendering on the CPU (Warhawk)
Vertex Processing/Rendering on the CPU (Warhawk, GT:5, Killzone)
Handling the AI for Ten Thousand enemies without even touching system memory (Heavenly Sword)
Full Scene Ray-tracing (GT:5)

Some titles like Lair and Uncharted are also doing some really neat water physics on Cell; look up Uncharted especially, the physical ripples and splashes really add a lot to the immersion factor.

[ReBurn]

So there's a bus between memory pools that is bigger than the pools themselves? Are you sure you aren't confusing gigabit with gigabyte?

[DJ]

transfer 20GB of data from Cell to RSX (or their memory pools) per second, and 15GB of data from RSX to Cell per second.

[ReBurn]

Your post got me curious, so I went out digging. I found this:

http://www.ibm.com/develope...

Holy crap! I/O bandwidth of 35GB/s inbound and 40GB/s outbound, with an aggregated bandwidth of 25.6GB/s at 3.2Ghz. That's got to be bandwidth to spare.

[Ju]

Compared to that, a full 1080p@60Hz has a bandwidth of 480MB/sec (at 32 bits RGBA).

[ChickeyCantor]

lookie lookie
people pretending they know everything about programming and CPU I/O.
calling devs lazy and such.

some things just need time, when was the last time game developers had to program a game for Cpu like the Cell?
they will get the hang of it but it neeeds TIME and lots of training.

[ReBurn]

When I was in college the first CPU I learned to work with was the Intel 8088 microprocessor. By that time the processor was over 10 years old, but it was still good to program for since it was an introduction to the x86 instruction set. It had 16-bit registers with an 8-bit bus, and we learned assembler for it.

I remember how hard it was in later courses to move from the 16-bit architecture to the 32-bit architecture of the 80386, which was top of the line at that time. The IA-32 extensions added a level of complexity that took a while to get used to. At that time we only had single-core CPU's and multi-threaded apps were really just starting to emerge on a large scale.

I can't imagine the complexity of working with some of the multi-core CPU's that are out there today. I don't do as much coding as I used to, but I found that for business apps it made more sense just to use a high-level language like C++ or Java instead of trying to work directly with the iron like videogame software developers often have to.

Trust me, laziness is not a quality that keeps someone employed in the software industry. The orchestrations required to keep these games running are beyond what many application developers are capable of understanding.

[Bloodmask]

8th December 2004, by Paul, 372 words, 216 views
Categories: Gaming, Technology

We all heard the talk, that the Cell processor would wipe away all before it. Of course anyone with any knowledge of this kind of technology would see it for what it is, more Sony bullshit. Remember the PS2?

1000 times the power of any PC. 66Gb/s of memory bandwidth. Toy Story graphics in real time. And such & such.

The same kind of outrageous claims were made with this Cell processor which is developed by IBM, Toshiba, and Sony. They claim this to be completely "revolutionary". It's not you can clearly see it's relation to the Playstation 2's processor. In that it's basically lots of weak processors bolted together, the fundamental reason the Playstation 2 is so insanely difficult to develop for and why developers are dropping it and shifting focus to the Microsoft Xbox 360. Which like all Microsoft platforms is notoriously fast and simple to develop for. Allowing developers to spend more time creating decent games instead of struggling to try and get their software to even work.

Just days ago the official press release about this Cell thing was released. The Sony fanboys started cheering, I guess they just never learn do they - and what should happen just yesterday? nVidia released a statement saying their graphics processors would feature in the Playstation 3 and other Sony products.

What happened to the mighty Cell? Sony now have to back-off saying the Cell is all mighty, and require a seperate GPU to handle graphics, yes it's 1000 times more powerful then any PC today, right that's why it can't perform GPU-like operations on it. They need a PC manufacturer to remotely stand a chance of coming up with a better graphics processor then their extremely lacking PS2. The hypocracy! Just a few years ago they were blasting the Xbox because of it using PC hardware, it featured an nVidia NV2A chip (which at the time they seemed to think was a bad thing). Of course nVidia have since been replaced by ATi, as the performance/quality graphics leader of the PC market, ATi winning the contract to develop the GPU for the Xbox 2, which they have now completed.

Sony are still lagging behind. Good luck with your Playstation 3, you're going to need it.

[HarryEtTubMan]

You're a joke...PS3 is freakin used by scientist and to help find a cure for cancer... dude the 360 doesn't stand a chance... keep believing Halo 3 is gonna sell syatems but its not. There is nothing left for the 360. It had a YEAR LEAD on the market and has no dominant posistion on the market whatsoever. PEOPLE DON'T ONLY LIKE SCI-FI POWER RANGER SHOOTERS. ONLY U DO BEACAUSE YOU'RE PROBALLY 16. PS3 is even going to be out at least 4-5 years longer than Xbox. Probally more. You choose a console destined to fail. The Xbox doesn't have a big fanbase at all and that is CRUCIAL to the console wars. Halo has maybe a 8-10 million base in the world... Gears only sold 3 million worldwide.... when the rest of these big games coming out? They aren't. Microsft knows Bluray is the next format and Sony beat them to the punch. People LOVE the Playstation its just been really expensive because of its cutting edge technology. PS3 has been fighting an uphill battle with 2 CONSOLES out before it and at a price range much more pricey than the other two. Its still more expensive. Expect the PS3 to hit it true potential in 2-3 years. And then to sell another 3-4 years but sells will definately pick up this year and next MUCH. The Xbox 360 is a peace of garbage. I was playing Halo last night and me and my friends were talking garbage to the whooollleee room about how the American media overrated and sold Halo to the public because if they didn't Microsoft wouldn't even be able to sell 40 million consoles. It's a joke and you're a joke. 360 doesn't have a chance man in the long run.

[DJ]

And Microsoft claimed that Xbox would be able to do Toy Story 2 graphics (something even the 360 can't pull off). The PS2 was a bandwidth monster, and its successor follows the same path. Because of its high bandwidth, PS2 was actually the best console for streaming data off of discs since it was able to distribute and chew through it so fast.

Even though it only had 4MB of VRAM for textures, developers could actually swap level data (textures for example) in and out of RAM so fast that they would end up with a total of anywhere from 16~100+MB of data being streamed off the disc for just one level (depending on genre, progression, etc). The same thing applies with PS3. It has 512MB of memory, but with Blu-ray's fast data transfer rate (on average, faster than 12x DVD Dual-layer) and huge storage capacity, they're not limited to how much the system can store; having the HDD for caching helps a lot too.

[Foliage]

Congrats DJ you have once again put another troll in their proper place. I hope they learn a lesson from this, that knowing rather than copying is the only way to make people believe you know what you are talking about.

Bubble for you.

[ReBurn]

I'm sure that one of the biggest differences between PS3 and 360 development is tools. I think that the advantage 360 developers have is a better toolset with a better API to develop against. For the last two generations the initial development kits were tougher to work with but evolved over time.

If developers don't have a good API then they are going to have to do the extra legwork to work with the Cell architecture. But even with a good API, I'm sure that a CPU with that many cores is a challenge. Many developers tend to forego the API and work directly with the hardware to get as much out of it as they can. API calls tend to have overhead per cycle that take performance away from the software.

EDIT: You can disagree with me, but if there's anything that Microsoft is great at developing it is good tools for their platforms. Don't let fanboy blinders get in the way. One of the biggest complaints that the PS2 had when it was first released was that the initial development tools weren't robust enough due to the complexity of the Emotion Engine microprocessor. It took a couple of years for Sony to release a more robust suite of tools.

[Ahhhh]

@SonySoldiers - "DON'T STOP PRAISING ON SONY PLAYSTATION 3! We have to win again." yea.. so exactly what do you do for Sony? Kiss their ass?

[rabidvibes]

calling developers lazy and not ready to learn new things is stupid. Look at it from a buisness view... you have to train a team longer and harder which cost more money to sell a game on the smallest install base... Yea thats a great idea.

Or you could teach your team to use the easy microsoft dev tools to make a great game. On a system that has the highest attachment rate out. Then pay a third party to port that same game to sony...

its going to keep happening untill sony proves that they will have a huge install base with games that people will buy...

You can argue that more and more ps3 systems are selling but if people are using those only to watch blu-ray movies, or be online in home, and just dl games. Then why would developers make games for it when noone will buy them?

[JosefTor]

DON'T STOP PRAISING ON SONY PLAYSTATION 3! We have to win again.

What's that mean? Doesn't everyone want all three consoles to succeed in their own way? Having one clear winner is the worst thing because eventually it might lead to a monopoly. I want whatever is best for gaming and consumers. Stop making PS3 consumers sound stupid and ignorant.

And oh yeah... you are one of the happiest gamers in the universe because of the PS3? Is that why you are begging for people to talk it up so that you might actually feel good about your expensive system. Geesh... get some brain "cells"

[mikeslemonade]

360 is like a PC so it's going to be obsolete as fast as a PC. A year from now no game is going to look better than Bioshock or Gears on the 360. A year from now for the PS3, the potential is just starting on the PS3. Every game so far on the PS3 is a 1st generation and basically practice project to learn about the PS3. Ratchet is the first 2nd generation PS3 game and then Uncharted. MGS4 is going to show what the definition of a 2nd generation title on the PS3. FFXIII is going to be the first 3rd generation title using all the all of 7 of the processors. 360 basically has only 2 generations the launch games and Gears of War. Nothing on 360 looks better than gears and the PS3 for that matter nothing looks better but we know FFXIII will look better using the white engine.

[segasage]

the Jaguar and 3D0 was ahead and look at what happened to them. as well as the dreamcast introduced a lot.

it makes no difference about learning curve..

if people are not read you will fail....the verdict is still out and its early on the ps3.

[Ju]

The difference between the Jaguar and the PS3 is Sony vs. Atari, and 3DO, well, the same Sony vs. 3DO (even though they were owned by Panasonic, AFAIR). 3DO was a startup (with a lot of Amiga veterans...pity) and Atari simply was already dying at that point.
I don't know, simply the scope (size) of Sony is nowhere close to either one (Atari or 3DO). Also, still, the PS3 sold OK (not worse then the 360 in its first year). It has to sell more to connect to the PS2, true, but it will.
I would love to see something from Sega again. It is really a pity they gave up after the Dreamcast (but actually, the heritage is the xbox - incl. Peter Moore (in the past)).

[ReBurn]

Panasonic didn't actually own 3DO. Trip Hawkins tried to do something a little different than before by designing the platform and then licensing the technology to other companies. The 3DO company owned the specification and Panasonic, Goldstar and Sanyo licensed the technology and made players.

I think that the idea was to try to create the first true multimedia platform that would include games, movies and other forms of interactive entertainment. If it hadn't been so expensive it might have been a good idea.

[bluebrad1974]

Gabe Newell of Valve(3rd party dev) openly calls the ps3 a piece of trash. The next day Sony PR floods the internet with damage control. Honestly folks, if a dev that does multi-platform development says the ps3 is trash, then it's trash. Gabe Newell isn't some internet troll or company paid plant. He's a millionare developer that obviously feels that he doesn't have to kiss ANY companies ass. These articles grasping at straws trying to cloud the truth about the ps3 are not trustworthy when creditials are compared.

[Ju]

You should read Gabe's comments a bit more carefully. First he says "Multicore is trash" and refers to what Intel has promised (him?): Endless frequency rush. He didn't see that coming and puts the blamegame on intel, that they all of a sudden changed their strategy. At least, he accepts now the cpus have multiple cores and all of a sudden starts to praise it.

Then, he refers that "we can do a lot with GPUs"...then again, well, we have multicores right now. Next statement is "CELL" is crap. The man does not know what he wants. Or he is clueless. Sorry, I will probably never get a job at Valve. But WTH.

Somebody should have told him, that the CELL is one additional execution unit, which he can use like his shaders on the GPU. So, on one side he praises multicore and GPUs (shaders) on the other hand he trash talks the CELL (PS3).

And the best of all, they haven't even done the Orange Box in house, but EA has done that on their own. So, I don't know. He might be a gaming veteran, but somehow he sounds like a moron. (Sorry Gabe).

BTW: I was experimenting with some rendering stuff and ended up re-implementing a small OpenGL API. However, by design it is layed out to run highly multithreaded. It can run geometry and rasterizer at the same time. More then that. The rasterizer can be split across raster units (SPUs anyone?). What that means is that geometry processing and e.g. 4 tile SW renderer will run in parallel - at least on the PS3 (1 SPU geometry, 4 for the renderer, one free for AI and physics, and well, the PPU core).
Why do I mention that ? The current OpenGL implementation sucks. If you really want to use multicores or CELL you need to rewrite from the bottom. Time changes.

[level 360]

In one word - YES.
That's why games are taking longer to produce.
That's why game developers' are still trying to figure-out kinks in the system.

So, Yes.

[computerjeff05]

The PS3 will be around till 2012.... because you'll only have about 80 games by then.