Battlefield 3 Multiplayer Confirmations.

DICE has mostly been focusing on giving out information about single player, but finally they have confirmed some details about multiplayer. Mulitplayer is a big part of the Battlefield series because before Battlefield Bad Company, there was no single player. Battlefield Bad Company 2 is one of my favorite shooters and reading through some of the details about Battlefield 3 there seem to be heading in the right direct, fixing things that needed to be fixed and keeping the things that have worked well in the past.

[xc7x]

"One of the issues with Bad Company 2 was that most of the weapons were unlocked before reaching half of the ranks"

that's not an issue,holding back weapons is an issue,what's wrong with dev's these days. as for kill-cam,booo!! just makes the game more noobish.

[ULTIMATE_REVENGE]

If kill cam makes you more "noobish" then that's your problem.

How on earth kill cams can make you less of a skilled player is beyond me.

[Staude]

It insures people can't just camp in one location since the kill cam reveals your location. Much to the dismay of said campers and snipers. Personally, I dislike snipers and campers so I don't mind the killcam :P

[captain-obvious]

kill cams in BFBC2 didnt exactly show you where is the player since it shows you his image from the front
so if you are not familiar with the map you wont know where is he
but when you get used to the maps
you'll know right away
the thing is
by that time you'll already be some what a good player

and kill cams in general are not noobish
not in my opinion

[BattleAxe]

I hope they:

- fix auto balancing in the console versions
- release the game with more maps and game modes than BC2 had.
- after watching the GDC video and seeing how realistic B3 is going to be, I hopw they can up the graphics from BC2 on the console version.

[Iroquois_Pliskin]

it reveals the sniper's location...

In the battlefield, there isnt a killcam to show you who's killed you because then you would be dead.

[Bear_Grylls]

Kill cams are rubbish for real players and snipers/campers are part of the vast expanse of the game.

FFS they are not hard to kill, you all sound like a bunch of COD playing L337 noobs to me.

kill cams in any BF game is a fail.

Disagree all you want, real gamers know the truth.

[NewMonday]

-There is no killcam in BFBC2 hardcore mode, so complainers can have that; I know a lot of my friends that play sniper moved to it just for that.
-For B3 I hope they limit the ammo for hellfire shooting helicopters, and give us more anti-air guns.

[evrfighter]

I dont mind kill cams either way. But to the battlefield community that's borrowing from cod. To borrow from CoD leaves an uneasiness to the bf diehards.

seriously though. If you're watching kill cams your 1v1 individual skill probably blows and you'll more than likely lose again. If you hate kill cams. That probably means you're camping. How people have fun in fps's by watching a door for 5 minutes is beyond me.

Among my friends we are more likely to give props to the dude who goes 11-11 then to someone who goes 11-2. an 11/11 man score means that person has a fearless play-style and those types get my respect.

[LoVeRSaMa]

In the real BF games there is no kill cam, because you would get bombed if they knew where you are, the real BF games are more about vehicles where as the BC games were more FPS/COD like.

[DeadlyFire]

You guys do know it is optional for servers.

[plb]

There is hardcore on PC where you can turn killcam and maps off and enable friendly fire etc...not sure about console?

[Ascalon94]

I believe that console version had hardcore which turned off the noob settings.

[Minimox16]

console version had it.

[BISHOP-BRASIL]

Does the hardcore mode offers a "no respawn" option?

I don't mind Killcam if there is non respawn games, because it makes sure you can snipe or rush a certain way on the round but press you to not use the same location or path the whole game.

Personally I snipe on all games, but I like to play moving, covering friends, spotting enemies and trying to find different position to take out enemy snipers, I generally get as much kills with pistols as I do with sniper/marksman rifles. The "problem" is that, don't matter how much you run around, if you snipe anyone the guy will complain you were camping, that's just how it is. Everyone wants to outtrigger you, not you to outsmart them.

[ATiElite]

A little upset about there being no commander. I hope the maps are even bigger than BF2. 32 vs.32 is gonna KILL! you move up in rank you get to get the big guns. I don't see a problem with this. Besides a M4 with 203 grenade launcher or a Dragonov is all I need anyway along side my trusty Desert Eagle.

Kill Cams are not noobish. I actually enjoy them as it gives me something to do while waiting to respawn. Go buy a PC and play on a server that has them turned off. Matter of fact go play on a server that is in Hardcore mode if your so good (which i doubt). After 2 hours of Hardcore mode you'll be back playing MW2.

[Bear_Grylls]

Not a chance.

Hardcore is where the real players go, no kill cams for me.

On BFBC2 hardcore servers have a Que of up to 10 waiting to join while noobcore servers go un-played most of the time.

[WitWolfy]

I always play hardcore on BFBC 2. Its actually easier for me if you know your maps, not to mention more rewarding when you know all the predictable sniping spots too ;)

[RioKing]

Yeah then after the hardcore games I'll hear ppl telling their buddies to "back out to a regular game mode" and I'll reply "yeah hardcore's tough, isn't it?" lol noobs.

[Hanif-876]

If prone is back then the kill cam needs to be there to discourage players to stop potential camping. if not, then that player that you just popped is coming for your a$$. Thats a pretty good way to balance the game in my book ;-)

[Bear_Grylls]

If you get UAV's, jets, helis etc all with spotting abilities and the fact that sniper rounds have a "trail" I fell the addition of any kind of kill cam as a down.

[damnyouretall]

i sort of hate campers and i never pick up a sniper rifle,,ever. but i like having them in the game though. cause i dont want everyone to play exactly like me.

[OdinFallen]

How is requiring people to reach a higher rank for a certain weapon an issue? Its a means of separating the lower tier players from the top, new from the veterans, etc. There has to be incentive, other than aesthetic changes, to reach higher ranks.

[BISHOP-BRASIL]

You aren't wrong but the problem with this system is that, if the better weapons are considerably more powerful or precise, you gonna unbalance the game. When experienced players have good weapons and newcomers have crap ones, the community growth is jeopardised in the long run, as the newcomers will struggle to level up and a good part will simply abandom the game over frustration.

As you said, it's a way to separate veteran/top players from the new/low tier ones... But the game won't matchmake like that, it will mix people in all stages and 6 months after release newcomers being deployed in a room filled with 31 halfly and greatly experienced players isn't a great idea, he's already in a lot of disadvantage and as soon as he realises that his M4 don't make half as much damage as a top SCAR which he would need to play dozens of hours with the crap set to get, he will abandom it... Case in point: MAG. I have seen many left it for that, they are already way behind the competition but the game feels like just punishing them a little more for not being day one buyers! LOL

IMHO a much better solution in a classes based shooter is to leave all weapons free to get so people can use what they feel confortable with, and the leveling/unlocking keep carreer related.

Like lvl 1~9 you get stuff to customize weapons (supressors, grips, bipods, scopes, lasers, camouflages, bigger magazines, etc) or character (can even grant different armor level and affect mobility) but on lvl 10 you get a medkit for medics, a tool for engineers, a radio for commando, etc. The prizes would be especific for each class. If it must be an "unlock all" kind of game, just dilute every class specific stuff throughout the many levels to everyone, so people can choose the class later on. You can even have some cool weapons as unlockable, but not overpowered.

I believe this is a lot more friendly to newcomers but still rewards veterans as they can call airstrikes, spot enemies, fix stuff... All what newcomers can't do, they can. But most of the time when engaging in a shootout, it's still may the better player survive, not the better equiped one. The class stuff should be enough to incentive leveling up to everybody.

[GrumpyVeteran]

Agreed.

Unfortunately people will disagree with you, the majority of people here are tainted with COD Unlocks... Honestly, all weapons should be available to me, and you're right, kill cams are insanely stupid.

Fucking COD.

[Bear_Grylls]

Yay a normal gamer.

Kill cam = FAIL

[xc7x]

well heh,least we know the noobs here on N4G now.

[GloriouS]

kill cam does the opposite, the noobs, the campers will get shown when they kill someone who is just walking around and playing how a shooter is supposed to be played. and after that person is killed, he'll be back for the camper with some marsmellows....

[blackhammer]

i find it pretty funny that I'm really excited for prone to comeback after years of being outcast from FPS games. Really pissed me off too. Finally I can be a true sniper again.

64 players... jizzed in pants anyone?

[BattleAxe]

I'd hate to see what you'd do in your pants if you played MAG.

[dtalon3]

lol, I guess he should rephrase his sentence then...

64 players AND LOOKS GOOD...jizzed in pants anyone.

sorry bro MAG just plain sucks and I wanted to like it. apart from pixelated explosions, team killing, and boring maps...

unlike what mystic said you unfortunately never see as many players as the touted 250 player per game mumbo jumbo, sure more than an 8 on 8 squad...but rarely much more than you see in any other shooter with a larger team battle mode.

[MysticStrummer]

64 players = smallest MAG game type. Don't try saying that all you can see is your 8 man squad fighting another 8 man squad either, because that's BS. Soil your drawers over destructible environments if you want to, but 64 players is nothing new. MAG has prone also. Guess it wasn't outcast after all.

[lve2playbball]

too bad MAG sucks balls, and the only people that really like it are PS3 fanboys who HAVE TO LIKE every PS3 game that comes out. Every Battefield game has been better than MAG is, okay maybe not every single one--I'll except Bad Company 1.
I use my PS3 for good games like Uncharted, GOW, Infamous, etc but lets face it the PS3 is not the greatest system for shooters.

I used to be a PC gamer until I got my 360 and PS3. Battlefield is bringing me back to the PC. In fact, I already started saving so I can build meself a new beast. If you want the best shooter experience play BF3 on the PC.

[Kon]

I just want to play in Paris and blow the Eiffel tower into pieces.

[xtremegamerage]

PC version for me. 64players:0

[captain-obvious]

me too

[BattleAxe]

I'm just worried about hackers on the PC version. Apparently Crysis2 has already been hacked, and it hasn't even been released yet.

[annus]

You don't play any PC games do you? Every game is hackable, and easy to hack. Almost all servers have security. And in servers there are usually a few admins who click on the persons name and remove them from the game. I can guarantee that even if they hack this game in the first few days, there will not be any hackers found online. Go look at CoD on PC. I have NEVER seen a hacker on that, can't say the same about PS3 and Xbox360 where I have seen multiple hacks.

[Xfanboy]

VAC is great on steam!

[Pandamobile]

Well, the demo has no anti-cheat, so there's your reason why there are hacks already.

[plb]

I wonder if PC squads can be more than 4 players since it can have 32 player teams

[BISHOP-BRASIL]

I hope so, I want to communicate with my whole team, not a fraction of it. Maybe not 32 as it could became chaos, but at least 8, 4 simply isn't enough for some team strategies. And squad leaders should be open mic between them.

EDIT: Also console versions should simply have one big squad as it's just 12x12. You can have communication between 12 players without chaos, just add PTT button.

[MGRogue2017]

It's great that it's coming to consoles 'cause now I can finally play a "true" Battlefield game. Bad Company 2 is kind of a spin-off

Battlefield 2 is as everyone knows, only available on PC & my laptop isn't the best (Acer Aspire 5920G) so I wasn't able to play it.. well, not at a stable frame rate & good quality settings :(

I prefer playing MP games on the Xbox 360 anyway.. The only MP game I play on the PC is CounterStrike Source. :)

[SixZeroFour]

"It's great that it's coming to consoles 'cause now I can finally play a "true" Battlefield game. Bad Company 2 is kind of a spin-off "

its kinda odd that you say this cause everyone knows bfbc2 is a mini version of the main series cause the main series has bigger maps, more players and a lot more vehicles...HOWEVER the bf3 is kinda like another bfbc game cause less players (24, just like bfbc2) but not sure about the map sizes and this is most likely due to the console limitations

and im not talking about consoles not being able to handle more than 32 players cause plenty of games have shown 32+ player multiplayers...im saying consoles cant handle the graphics/destruction ALONG with the high player count

[BISHOP-BRASIL]

I alway believed Bad Company 1 and 2 were sequels/spiritual successors of BF2 Modern Combat, which were already a spin off.

[telekineticmantis]

1. vehicles
2. alot of weapons
3. In-game movie recording

That's what you call content.

[Tripl3seis]

This is great I'm getting it day one I wish consoles had the 64 player matches but it could change on a later date I can't wait to play it!!!

[SJPFTW]

i wish they could of at least bump it to 32 players on consoles

[younglj01]

after reading that my only problem is 24 players on PS3.I understand that Battlefield started on tha PC so that means they will get tha best version.But y couldnt u have atleast 32 players or even 48?

I'm sure I'm not tha only 1 thinking tha same thing.EA and DICE if u is reading this please boost up tha player count.Tha game doesnt come out until tha end of tha year.I think thats enough time to add some more players to tha console version.

[PapaSmurf11]

They did say that the player count on the consoles was not set in stone and something about players from consoles not complaining with the player counts on BC2,BC1, 1943 etc so they didn't think anything of changing it, but they said they will explore the possibility of more players.
Fingers crossed.

[SixZeroFour]

i kinda thought it wasnt set in stone BEFORE...but this is a list of CONFIRMATIONS, so wouldnt that mean it IS set in stone now?

also, i wouldnt see why ppl would complain about player counts in bfbc series, cause it was a smaller version of the main series...but if this is supposed to have bigger maps, more vehicles etc. i would assume they would need more players to fill the field (given that the maps are the same for pc and 360/ps3)

i still do hope they up it up to ATLEAST 32 players, 16 players 4 squads each on each side would seem like the sweet spot, but i guess we'll have to see just how big the maps are

[Pandamobile]

You guys don't seem to understand that this isn't some arbitrary number set in place for the consoles.

If they could get the game running smoothly at 32 players or higher, they would. Throwing 12 more players into a multiplayer game with a large amount of vehicles, map destruction and good graphics will take a heavy toll on the performance of the game.

[SixZeroFour]

its adding 8, not 12 lol...but technicalities aside, i agree, i would much rather have a smooth running game, rather than more ppl and framerate issues everywhere

[Pandamobile]

Sorry, math fail. I've been balls deep in linear algebra and C++ for the last two weeks that I tend to forget simple addition :(

[ATiElite]

if the consoles could handle 64 players then DICE would of put them in there but this is where the rubber meets the road and the consoles have reached their limitations.

sure Mag has 256 but this ain't Mag, this is Battlefield. The vehicles, physics, graphics, huge maps, quality, etc made DICE decide that 24 was the max without turning the game into MW2.

Dice doesn't sacrifice quality.

[hoops]

Well said. Bubbles

[04soldier]

I would be willing to go from the standard destructibility of Battlefield 3 on the PC to the low end destructibility of BF 1943 if they would up the player count from 24 to 32-40 for the consoles.

I could upgrade my PC for the best experience of BF3 on PC but I'm not seasoned PC gamer. I game on joysticks plain and simple. Its all my preference.

I have a hard enough time on Starcraft 2 much less a shooter.

Up the player count for consoles DICE please..

[PapaSmurf11]

One thing I would like but is very unlikely to be in the game is a bomber or some sort of heavy ordnance delivery vehicle (Mobile artillery etc).
How cool would it be to hear your friends asking for backup and seeing you come in with a B52 and wipe the enemy base out? It would be like the bombers in 1943 but you control it fully <3.
Perhaps landing to re-arm because I would imagine it being pretty overpowered.
Just my thoughts :).

[Veni Vidi Vici]

You do realize that what you just described is essentially what the Commander did in previous BF games, don't you? The Commander could place air strikes anywhere on the map to take out tanks, heavily defended flags, etc.

This is why I'm pretty upset that they took out the Commander feature. WTF?!? To make it more accessible? What kind a reeree couldn't figure out how to place a uav, air strike, send in supplies, or give a squad an objective to take?

[PapaSmurf11]

Um, I didn't but okay.

I am also pretty annoyed about that, It was a unique addition and it was fun to sit back and watch the map for requests.

[Rearden]

This was submitted to N4G by BF3blog, the source of this article, a few days ago, and failed (reported).

Yet this rip off is approved? WTF N4G?

[Fireflex]

It was sourced correctly.

[AusWarrior]

Co-op campaign! Woo!

[Thump1967]

DAy 1 purchase to bad it's next year

[Pandamobile]

Fall 2011.

[FatherM1ke]

I Have to thank Fireflex for posting my article from WTG.

I'm really excited for this game its definitely going to be a pre-order... BF series does a great job with their VIP customers!

[bumnut]

Please for the love of god limit the number of sniper slots per team like red orchestra.

Im sick of losing rush matches because 12/16 people on my team sit back sniping.

EDIT - and please bring back zooming out on the mini map, BC2 map is useless.

[khamvongsa09]

OMG JETS ARE BACK!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! One of the few games that I will most likely get this year :DDDDD

[arjman]

Guys I need your opinions
I'm thinking of starting a budget build from scratch, budget is £400.
Athlon II X3 450
Biostar A880GU3 mATX mobo
4GB DDR3 (thinking Corsair, Crucial or Kingston here)
Standard 500gb Seagate hard drive or maybe stretch to a 1Tb
Standard LiteOn 24x DVD
Coolermaster Elite 330 or 342, need opinions
BeQuiet 530W Pure Power - 120mm Fan, Dual 12v rails, 5x sata, 2x pci-e
Either a 1Gb GTX 460 or an ATI 6850

All this comes to around £420, I've got a copy of W7

Games I'll be playing are: BF3, Metro, Crysis, Civ, Starcraft, Skyrim, Brink, Batman, Deus Ex, Duke, Diablo, etc...

1. Is it worth waiting for AMD's Bulldozer or is an Athlon II x3 enough for BF3?
2. Which case is best, the aforementioned or any others around the £30 mark? Ie. What would be best for the components and expansion?
3. Are BeQuiet a good brand for PSU's?
4. Is it worth getting the slightly older (mature drivers) GTX460 or the newer (young drivers) 6850? Which would be more future proof?

Cheers!

[iagainsti120]

dont get an athlon they suck get a Phenom II 965 or better only like $160 American http://www.newegg.com/Produ...

and get a Ati HD5770 make sure the Motherboard supports Crossfire, save up and get a 2nd one later 2 of these cards get performence around a Ati HD 5870 or better and a psu that supports 800+ wats and no i havent heard of BeQuiet look for Thermitake, Zalman, or Antec , go Full Atx you get more options, good memory makers that you listed 4gb is fine , Newegg is your friend use the user reviews and eggs to make your choices you can make an inexpensive enthusiast machine with some of the components i listed may be a bit more expensive than your looking for but its worth it. Plus if you want you can upgrade your cpu to a hex core as well in the future if you need to.

[arjman]

Man I'm in the UK so things are a lot more expensive here

[lve2playbball]

I'm not a real expert but I know about gaming rigs. The CPU isn't terrible, but you might as well spend an extra $30 and get the Phenom II x4. BFBC2 is one of the few games that actually used all four cores, so I think DICE will do the same with BF3, even moreso. If you don't want to spend a little more I understand, because it's a budget machine--the other guy might've ignored that. I have heard of BeQuiet, and it's fine. However, you will need more power if you plan on running crossfire/sli. If you want to go with one card that 6850 isn't bad at all. I'd go for it over the 460 just because I think the drivers will push further performance out of it in the future. About the hard drive...I have a personal bias against Seagate (because 2x I lost data on Seagate drives), so I stick with Western Digital--preferably the Caviar Black series--can get a 500gb for $60.

One more thing... It might be worth it to wait for Bulldozer. AMD is still the value kind, and Bulldozer isn't gonna cost nearly as much as a mid-high end Intel chip. If you can wait til summer then wait, if you can't wait then so be it. I am in the same situation, plan on building a new rig for new games, but I'm gonna wait until Bulldozer--or maybe even Llano. Llano are basically like Phenom II's but with GPU on die--supposedly will be able to use crossfire with the onboard gpu and a 6000 series card (like the 6850).
Well, those are my thoughts, sorry if it wasn't what you were looking for.

[arjman]

That was like the perfect answer! Bubbles for you!

I'm definitely waiting for Bulldozer at least. Seagate I agree about, I had a Barracuda drive which gave out on my last desktop, like 2 years ago but then that desktop itself was made of 4 year old hardware at the time.

Agreed about the quad core utilisation in Battlefield, definitely a must, I'm not planning on dipping into SLI/Crossfire yet, so a single card will do me fine.

At least I know the release of Bulldozer will bring some new quad core value options to the table and drive down current cpu prices, so it's pretty much a double win!

[im-12-years-old]

Get the 955 which is the same as 965 only clock at a lower speed, if you want a 965 then you can just overclock.

[pnoozi]

' BF3Blog.com is an independent estalbshment and is not associated with EA and DICE. '

/FACEPALM

[bjh089]

is this game gonna be different though. im not a huge fan of the bad company series hopefully this is faster paced

[gcolley]

you mean more arcadey? try CoD

[DiLeCtioN]

No clan support?

[SKUD]

No commander support?

[peeps]

If the 64 for pc, 24 for consoles is true then I hope they find a way to make it work. Let's be honest to have 64 players plus vehicles (inlcuding jets no less) then you need big maps. But simply having the same maps and with a lower player count might cause problems.

Back when BF2 released BF2:modern combat released on consoles and again that game had 24 players compared to the pc's 64. The thing is though they were actually pretty different games with maps specifically built for the console version.

My dillema now is that I wanna play on consoles with my clan but also don't wanna have a reduced experience. Chances are i'll have to get both versions lol.

Oh and one more thing... proper conquest please i.e. have at least 5 flags lol and reduce the capture range. I respect that Bfbc was a spin off but I hope the way they did conquest in that game doesn't reflect on bf3

[ivant]

Yeah,

I'm a console gamer and am a little concerned that the PC maps will be far too big for 24 players.

Warhawk has 16 vs 16 and its largest maps are perfect for 24-36 and could easily handle 64 players .... allowing awesome air battles.

If DICE has console MAPs the size of the largest Warhawk, then things should be fine.

[gcolley]

well said

[gcolley]

WRONG... BF2 on 360 had singleplayer, this article is wrong before i even clicked on the link so i won't bother. just makin shit up again, don't waste my time

[Pandamobile]

Battlefield 2 wasn't on the 360.

That was Battlefield 2: Modern Combat, a completely different game.

BF3 is the first Battlefield game to have a single player campaign, not counting the spin-offs.

[SKUD]

LMAO. He said BF2 on X360. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Haseo106]

What the heck! 64 on PC but only 24 on console! This sucks. But I'll still buy it as long as the story is SHARP & GAMEPLAY is AWESOME!

[Naruto_Uzumaki]

Doesn't anyone feel that the consoles version is the inferior version i mean 24 players sounds low to 64 players. after all iv seen games like mag, warhawk having 32 players or more.. on a console......

[ATiElite]

The console version is the inferior version because the console is an inferior machine. Not trying to be funny but Battlefield is a PC game that consolers will get a chance to enjoy like how Bad Company 2 is a console game that DICE was kind enough to port to the PC.

DICE is all about quality but the the amount of content going into BF3 is too big for the consoles so DICE felt it was necessary to lower the player count so NOT TO COMPROMISE QUALITY.

Remember the PC BC2 had more players than the console version too. Sure Mag has however many players but it doesn't look like BF3, has no vehicles, no full destruction, and sure as hell doesn't play like BC2 which is similar to BF2 but not as big as BF2.

[Gawdl3y]

MAG has vehicles, just not to the level that Battlefield has.

[ATiElite]

This is Battlefield and not Quake or MW2 so camping is a strategy that is needed. The game has sniper weapons in it so therefore I don't expect someone with a VSS Vintorez and a ghillie suit running around the map and being effective while using a bolt action rifle.

Snipers provide forward support for assault and engineers and can single handily hold a position on a map. camping is a part of war. Go join the military and in basic training the first thing they teach you is to sit still behind cover, breath slow, and shoot straight from a static position.

For those who hate campers go play Quake, Reach, or Bulletstorm. Other than that you will see a lot of me dancing in your Kill cam while you wait to respawn.

[Obama]

The most wicked way of camping in bad company 2 is using the remote flying drone and camp at the corner of the nme helicopter spawning point in one of the maps. Just wait for two nmes to get on and shoot a missile for the kill when they are about to take off.

I invented this camping strategy but don't know if anyone is using it.

[gypsygib]

24 players kind of sucks knowing that PC has 64. I would have liked at least 32.

Might just have to build a rig in the summer.

[PS360PCROCKS]

woo hoo! 64 players will be so awesome.

[artdafoo]

WTF I thought they said it got bumped up to 32 players like 3 weeks ago ? Make your mind up DICE !

[artdafoo]

They only added the tarded killcam to BC2 for all the COD noobs.

[XxPURExX]

Lame DLC already :(

[MARKUS_MAX1MUS]

All this info is old, give us something new atleast.

[Undeadwolfy]

Is it just me or is the link not working? I cant get it to open up the website

[the_quimby85]

man grills needs to shut his stupid mouth b4 i shut it for him if you play hardcore mode there is no kill cam so piss off there somthing 4 everyone stop whining