So,Who decides if a Game is a Flop or a Success?

Do fanboys determine if a game is a flop or a success? Comment sections of many articles on the web today about games turn into a war of words between Xbox fans and PS3 fans. But do they carry any weight?

[NYC_Gamer]

the gamer playing/watching gameplay makes that call..

[handheldwars]

The publishers..

[mastiffchild]

Well, I know who DOESN'T decide it, EVER. That would be HHG as EVERY game he's EVER reviewed got at least an 8.5(must lay) out of ten! Every sodding one!

I'm not a hater of the belt wrangler but his reviews are so bum licky it's not true.

[InfectedDK]

"So,Who decides if a Game is a Flop or a Success?"

No one - but yourself,
One mans 1.0 game can be another mans 10.

[NecrumSlavery]

When it comes to PS3/PSN games, I usually let Bungie, Omega, and Knightdarkbox decide if they are flops or successes.

EDIT: ok that's a joke, just messing. We all know they have no useful existence, at all here at N4G.

I think if the game is reviewed poorly collectively, then it is a fail. If it's well loved then it's a success. Regardless of sales, cause many good games sell poorly and bad games sell well.

[HopSkotch]

Magic 8ball decides all

[MicroSony4Life]

Just kidding we the gamers and not the trolls.

[SOAD]

@mastiffchild

hhg rated alpha protocol a 7.5.

[RedDead]

On this site?

The fanboys

[Dee_91]

I MAKE THE FINAL CALL !! and you all are nothing

[UnSelf]

well if the game is on a Floppy disc then you should know.

if its on a success disc (blur ray) then theres ur answer

[EvilBlackCat]

N4G because they have a crystal ball.

[wages of sin]

Me, myself and I.

[ABizzel1]

Well this generation success in the eyes of gamers has been based on review scores, and sales.

[Inside_out]

Gamers make or break a title...PERIOD. You hype a game all you want. Run commercials all day long. In the end the truth will come out and the majority of gamers will support the game if it gives them what they want.

MW2 ( 20+ million ) is the phenomena it is because it delivered. It's sales of games as well as the record breaking DLC and on-line numbers is all the proof anyone needs. UC2 ( 3 million ) and KZ 2 ( 2.5 million ) are some of the most ( especially UC 2 ) over hyped games ever. Their sales pale in comparison because people realized the games were not very good with poor multi-player. Fans of those games claim other wise but people don't buy games with there hard earn money just to please the gaming media or delusional fanboys.

Alan Wake is one of my favorite games this gen. Incredible graphics and atmosphere...sales ( 620,000...12 wks ) have been very disappointing so far for the game...why, it didn't give the core 360 gamer the experience it was looking for, in this case a good multi-player experience. Why pay $50-60 a year for on line and then buy a game with no multi-player. A silly oversight from a developer that made it's last game in the pre-online era. If ( BIG IF ) there is another AW, it will no doubt have a multi-player component. Look at Mass Effect...they have already hinted Mass 3 will be on-line.

What does this all mean...Every FPS shooter coming out in the post MW2 era will try and copy the MW2 formula. Badcompany, MOH, KZ 3, Crysis and of course Treyarch's COD will emulate that game hoping to drag the MW2 core gamer over for a look. Halo is a FPS BUT it's in it's own league, selling 11+ million units exclusively on 360 well BEFORE MW2. If it was on all platforms it would no doubt be at the top or very close to it. With the increase in gamers on 360 since Halo 3 release, Halo reach will have something to prove in terms of sales this September.

Who decides...Sales are the driving factor and measuring stick in any business..." If you build it, they will come "...words of wisdom indeed.

[theherp80]

metacritic

[mastiffchild]

Nah, Metacritic is just what ensures we all fail, gaming fails and the industry stays slightly dumb. A site which aggregates a bunch of reviews using totally unrelated scores ansd scoring systems from no score at all(which they, and I CANNOT believe this sometimes, make up for them)ro letters to percentages to out of ten and out of five? This is how the industry measures critical acclaim or hatred accurately?

[Mmmkay]

if you don't understand how 4/5 or 4/10 can be made into percentages that is your problem....

[SOAD]

mmmkay has a point. Metacritic does translate them all into percentages.

[Baka-akaB]

Metacric screws up its own concept quite easily and early .

It would be one thing to post scores and percentages from a pool of the same established and respected sites and magazines ...

Let's take fps (or rpg or whatever) A and fps B .... A gets 20 reviews mostly positive for a score of 92 .... while B get reviewed by 40 sites , some even foreign or nowadays dead , the excess review seems to be negative and bring the score at 89 .

The more review added , the more chances of negative scores bringing the primary % down .

What does it mean then ? Well precisely nothing , it's worthless stats . it only means that data is easily manipulated , sometimes even without any agenda .

[SOAD]

That's assuming too much.

I could say that the more reviews there are, the better the chance that the primary score goes up.

But I do agree, Metacritic should establish a set of review sites and use the reviews from those sites only for the aggregate. The fact that it doesn't might be reason enough to accuse it of being biased.

However, even the most popular review sites tend to skip some games for some reason for another. Sometimes IGN doesn't review something and sometimes GI or Edge doesn't, either.

[cereal_killa]

Metacritic is a joke it takes only the scores they want and places it on there so called percentage and is even more of a joke with multiplat games places 1 lower score on only one of the consoles score to make the other seem higher Metajoke is nothing but a flamebait site for Muppet fanboys.

[gravemaker]

me

[greeneggsnsam]

Hail, O great chooser of success!

[Megaton]

Ah, the chosen one. Decider of flops.

[PimpHandHappy]

with their wallets
also
if the ppl that did buy it had fun with it

[Zerodin]

n/t

[comp_ali]

Sales only can say it loud and clear. even good games can flop if they don't achieve expected sales like Alan wake and Alpha protocol for this year.

[creamydingle]

Agreed except for Alpha protocol I played it and it wasn't a good game

[comp_ali]

yeah , it wasn't AAA but at least acceptable. MW2 on the other hand lacks polish and broke sales records so it was a success for the publisher. Even Mw2 DLC which is basicaly just MW1 maps sold 5million on the second quarter , that;s much better than a great game can score.

[1942]

those games didn't do great in reviews either so they aren't really good evidence for what you're saying.

[SolidSystem]

because they are the only ones who care. everyone else just enjoys games.

[Zachmo182]

n4g duh!

[ImmortalLegend]

Lmao, I don't take most people on N4G seriously. This place is filled with fanboys.

[big_silky]

We'd like to think that lol but all the posters on n4g, gamefaqs, etc probably don't even equal 1% of the game buyers out there.

[Foxgod]

The people who make the game, they have expectations, if those are exceeded, its a succes.

[ImmortalLegend]

Yeah, as long as they get the money they want it's a success. That's what most people fail to understand. Also, let's not forget about the publishers...

[punisher99]

Well personally. I judge games by their overall quality. I don't judge them by sales numbers. A non quality product can sell really well if its been continually hype up and advetised. This theory have definitely been proven this gen.

[justlikeme]

B/c a game can be successful through the eyes of a gamer b/c it is a "AAA" game. But if it didn't sell well, publishers will consider it a flop.
i.e. Heavenly Sword..
And vise-versa. If a game sells a whole bunch but is considered a mediocre or even a crap game by gamers, gamers will consider it a flop and publishers will consider it a success. i.e. Wii sports, Wii fit..

Developers want the game to sell well, and be a "AAA" game.

[3sq]

I think it's the Patriots.

[Malebaria]

Each one of us,and that´s all that matters.

[bjornbear]

Me. No one else, just me.
xD

[Skadoosh]

Success is not always about money. Believe it or not some people have a vision and if they fulfill their vision than that's a success. The term flop is subjective around here. I see people throw around the term flop with Alan Wake. Well I loved that game so it's not a flop in my book. Of course, fanboys believe every game on the other side is a flop.

Life is so much more nice when you're not a fanboy. :)

[masterofpwnage]

i guess the 360 fanboys, because i remember way back then they called every ps3 a flop, if it didnt get a 9 or more and sell millions days 1

[1942]

you're completely right. uc was a flop to them because it got an 88 on MC but now they say 80s are ok because alan wake got an 83. also now that their games aren't selling as much as ps3 games they say sales don't matter. who knew they had such power?

[Roozium]

Xbox 360 exclusives don't sell? Wow, that was new.

[1942]

aw, scc, 99 nights, me2 and crackdown 2 all didn't sell. how dumb do you feel now? i gonna guess a lot.

edit: like all problems skadoosh the 360 fanboys started it. they bashed the ps3 a whole year before it even released. all they had to do was keep their mouths shut and then maybe it wouldn't be like this. since they did act like @sses we will never know if it would be fine or not. actually if we look at the gens before the xbox it was never this bad so it looks like things would of been fine if they learned to shut up. also no one proved your point because alan wake took 5 years and a AAA game budget just to get average reviews and poor sales it was a flop(maybe not to you but to the industry as a whole it is). uc reviewed better and sold 3 million copies 360 fanboys called it a flop because they didn't have it.

[Skadoosh]

It's the same with sony fanboys. Both are stupid.

You just proved what I said in my earlier post. One side always complains about the other side and vice versa. Uncharted was not a flop and neither was Alan Wake.

Life is to be enjoyed and the anger you keep showing will destroy you.

[Seferoth75]

fanboys of course

I had one even tell me the other day that 200k was a success for HD games yet 650k for and SD game was a complete flop.

[PirateThom]

How this really went down:

False statement: 3D Dot Game Heroes was a flop.
Retort: No, it sold pretty well considering it was a neich title with little hype.
False statement: No, [on the defensive now], it was outsold by Madworld and No More Heroes and those games are considered flops.
Retort: Yes, those games are flops because they were billed as big Wii titles and were supposed to reflect the hardcore userbase on the Wii but sold terribly in comparison and didn't meet expectations at all.
Retort: I have no bubbles.

[Seferoth75]

True statement. 200k is a flop. Lame excuses do not change fact.

You are trying to argue that because you claim there was no hype for the game and it was niche that the developer made money off of it and it was a success.
It is a BS argument that has no merit. BTW the game is pretty much Zelda so I fail to see how that is niche title and some 4 hour black and white button smash fest with no skill required is suddenly on everyone must own list of hardcore games.

You even pulled up Conduit as THE example that shooters do not sale on Wii. Forgetting of course that the COD series has sold millions more units on Wii.

It's funny to see someone completely clueless and ignorant of the subject argue a point and be openly bias and two faced and actually still think they are winning.

Only a fool would say 200k for a game is a success but games selling more than that on other consoles are bombs.

Well since Zelda games are "niche' titles with their millions in sales tell me hoe many millions all those other successful black and white brawlers sold?

[PirateThom]

Here's the problem, you are looking at this solely through sales. Don't do that, because it's a trap everyone has fallen into this gen, where sales are all that matters.

I'm going to explain why that's wrong though, so, you know, listen up.

"Flop" is not determined solely on sales, as fanboys like yourself believe, or on "metacritic scores" as other people believe. In fact, the term "flop" is misused on this site more than anywhere else. No, rather "flop", is determined on publishers requirements and expectations.

While 200k may be a flop for, as you said, a Zelda title, 200k for a no-name franchise, from a small developer (Silicon Studios - who's main focus is software, not gaming), a game ridiculed by many for being a Zelda rip-off, with no hype (apart from a small number of Demon's Souls - another "flop" if we go the sales route - fans waiting for, which they thought was "From Software's" new title), no expectations and no advertising.

3D Dot Game Heroes had NOTHING going for it as far as a sales counter goes, the shop I bought my copy from got 2 copies delivered on launch day and it wasn't even out on the shelves, I had to ask for it... and it still hit 200k.

Then, let's look at Madworld. A game that was supposed to show a hardcore fanbase on the Wii, the follow-up from the studio formed from the ashes of Clover Studio, following on from the success of Sin City in the black and white and red comic book style, an actual marketing budget and a big name publisher with plenty of shelf space dedicated to it.

You can't just apply an arbitrary number, like a million, and say any game that passes one million is a success and any that doesn't is a flop. I have no doubt The Last Guardian will never hit 1 million sales. Ico didn't, Shadow of the Colossus didn't. No reason it will. Will it still be called a flop even if the reception is fantastic? Undoubtedly, by the same people who use sales as a measuring stick, but will, at the same time, critique a game with metacritic score of, say, below 92, even if it sells 4,000,000+ on day 1.

And, yes, Call of Duty... a game with a fanbase of 15 year olds on every console, good choice.

[Baka-akaB]

of course fanboys will sway it one way or another . But people need to stop being that dumb and at least look at a title within some parameters .

When a game cost nothing , got no promotion , and is obviously designed for a niche market , and that even all accounts points to a dev and publisher being very satisfied , i shouldnt need to point out that those 200k are a success and not a flop .

Likewise when two new multiplatform s hack and slash ips go on and do above a million (darksiders and bayonetta) , dont seems to have an insane budget ... and when the biggest franchise of the genre like gow and dmc are the only ones lining up 2+ millions .... stop pretending those are flops , just because you dont like them .

since when does any entertainment market is RAW numbers as a metric ?
Indie movies who procede to do 60-70 millions dollars wont be called a flop because avatar does a billion ...

Nor does anyone expect a newbie jazz sensation to outsell 50 cents .

Use some common sense and stop pretending only RAW numbers matters for everything

[PSjesus]

Or just have a taste in gaming.except for FPS fans(CASUAL GAMERS).

[Blaine]

then every game would be a flop, obviously. 360 fanboys calling PS3 games flops, PS3 fanboys calling 360 games flops, and PC fanboys calling multiplats flops!

[LinuxGuru]

Who decides? Fanboys, it seems.

[Denethor_II]

ME

[Rocket Sauce]

"The most obvious example of this is the Xbox 360 title “Deadly Premonition”. This game was getting slammed by most of the big names in the media...Most reviews had the game at sitting at a 1 out of 10..."

You're just making shit up. Take a look at the reviews and see for yourself how badly it got "slammed":

http://www.metacritic.com/g...

[big_silky]

I agree, I would hardly consider a $20, absolute cult, odd-ball game a flop. It had zero advertising and zero press outside of "omfg you have to see this" word of mouth and some reviews. Personally I think it's a pretty damn cool game and probably the best truly budget title I ever bought.

It also depends on the definition of flop, are we talking a critical or financial flop?

[Darkfiber]

Nope, stupid reviewers do. Most reviewers suck because they don't know how to play games properly, don't have enough time to devote to giving a game a fair score and understanding, and don't have enough patience to play a game if it isn't retardedly easy in the first 10 seconds, or after they die more than twice, because they don't pay for the games. If reviewers had to buy every game with their own money like gamers do, they would definitely write better reviews (not necessarily better scores though). Half the reviews I read, they sound like they have no idea what they're talking about and have only played the game for the first 10 minutes.

You have no idea how many Demon's Souls articles I've read or stories I've heard on podcasts that only draw experiences from the first level of the game and say they died once on the boss and never played it again because the game sucks. Perfect example. I don't think the issue stems from fanboys, but I do think fanboys worship video game "journalists" because they are jealous of their profession and all secretly wish they could be reviewing games, so they are somehow automatically brainwashed into taking their word as gospel. Therefore, if a game scores under a 9 (sometimes under a 10) it sucks and they don't buy it. People are stupid.

[big_silky]

Good point. I truly believe that alot of reviewers and gamers simply don't "get" the game that they're playing and therefore it must be "bad". Demons Souls ran into that problem and IMO so did Bionic Commando and Lost Planet 2. I look at critiques of these games and I get the feeling that they're simply either playing them wrong or don't understand what the developer was going for. I look at the bad reviews and think that these reviewers can't be playing the same game that I am. They'd rather say it's crap than admit that they don't understand how to play it or that it's simply too hard for them. I played through Lost Planet 2 completely solo and there is NOTHING about the game that deserves anything under an 8 IMO.

[e-p-ayeaH]

Watch Classic Game Room reviews on youtube i promisse you will find a true matured gamer in there and a very funny one as well.

[e-p-ayeaH]

The game decides.

MW2 for example decided to be an outstanding multiplayer that the never stoping CoD4 fans all ever wanted and hype cant be denied when 2.5/4 of them are kids and only the rest are teenagers and young adults lol xD

[johng7380]

i'm just opening the door you have to walk through it

[Bell Boy]

Many xbox fanboys...the mart, power of green, green ring of life, omega I'm looking at you!! have been trying to persuade people on here since the launch of ps3 that every game that as launched as been a flop due to 1st day sales..lol.

PS3 fanboys are just as bad mind....if you listen to any of the idiot fanboys on here from either side or even the gaming sites you risk missing out on some great games.

I made the mistake in the early days of listening to hype and getting GTA IV which was traded after 2 days for Heavenly Sword which was slagged off by many a fanboy on here...no regrets as GTA IV was pants imo and Heavenly Sword showed me a glimpse into how great my PS3 was to become.

[kraze07]

Game design is art and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[SonyNGP]

A game flopping doesn't necessarily mean the game is atrociously bad. It's only the fanboys that think of it like that when they hear or mutter the word "flop".

[ChickeyCantor]

Its sad that some people here don't get that you yourself make the call and not some one else.

You can't judge it until you actually played it.

[Saryk]

This is one area that hurts PC gaming. One patch can make or break a game. But anyway, what I do is look at sites (like N4release) that has a average review score. Where 10 different sites have reviewed the game and there is a average score. Then I hit the forums of the game manufacturer, this is mostly for PC games. For a console: I see a average and look at some game play, if it interest me, then I will take the chance.