Bioware: You Stab Me Through the Heart

Chad Awkerman from DualShockers writes: "Dear Bioware, Honestly, you’re one of my favorite developers. Why must you go around spouting nonsense like you’re some elitest RPG god, assuming that only your brand of RPG is the only way RPGs can be done? I loved both Mass Effect titles, I loved Dragon Age: Origins, I’m looking forward to your upcoming Star Wars MMO. These are all awesome games in their own right, why must you go around shooting your mouth off willy-nilly? It makes you look like a bunch of jerks."

[Hitman0769]

Genre labels are becoming less and less relevant. That being said, this is still a ridiculous quote!

[karlowma]

Have to agree. The lines defining genres are becoming fuzzy, as every game tries to be everything to everyone. Gone are the days where we can point to a game and say, "That's a shooter," or, "Yup, that's an RPG." Everything is blurred together in an attempt to appeal to the largest number of consumers and amass more sales.

[StanLee]

Great points. Mass Effect itself is more a third person shooter. Even the sequel had its RPG elements scaled to the point they were none existent. What was left was character customization and the "element" of choice. Even character development was as bare bones as they come.

[hamoor]

he shouldn't blame bioware because its square enix's faults for releasing sh!itty sequels for final fantasy
i mean its linear as hell and no towns???i don't call this an rpg game
what was once called the king of rpg games is now gone
square enix is not square soft anymore

[Reibooi]

Regardless of what one thinks of Final Fantasy XIII(Personally I loved it) The way Bioware has been acting(yes I say Bioware because even those in charge there have been guilty of this) Are acting like nothing but internet fan boys trying to cause drama between RPG and JRPG fans and it's BS.

They have said that the JRPG genre hasn't moved forward in awhile and yet the same exact thing is true about their games. Dragons Age is nothing but Baldur's gate with now gen graphics and Mass Effect is the exact same thing with a shooter mechanic attached(I love Mass Effect as well can't stop playing ME2).

The point is they need to stop talking and just make games. They make great games sure but when they come out every week with some new trash talk against the JRPG genre it makes them look pompous.

[Simon_Brezhnev]

Reibooi i agree with you 100% except i didnt love FFX13. Dragon Age isnt even that great not compared to The Witcher which has better choices then Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age. ME2 and DA are all about good or evil choices but in The Witcher there is not right or wrong choices all about your morals.

[tinybigman]

which is a TPS in my eyes even though i love the game i was disappointed it was more shooter and less RPGish. branching speech does not make an rpg developing your character does, and Bioware took that away from me with ME2.

i put over 100 hrs into FF13 and only 30 hrs in ME2. personally im not a fan of WRPGs but bioware has made some of my favorites, but constant yapping is starting to get on my nerves.

[Ninja-Sama]

I put over 200 hours into ME2 and 50 hours into FFXIII, before I got to the last chapter and gave up, too boring and repetitive.

[Socrates]

ME2 was far more enjoyable to me than FFXIII. I don't care what your personal definition of an RPG is, ME2 is a tremendous game and certainly fulfills my craving for an RPG experience.

[tinybigman]

but for me even though i loved ME2 one play through was more than enough and the final boss was a major letdown. personally i can not put in more than 30 hrs into an wrpg as i can a jrpg. but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[UnwanteDreamz]

Demon's Souls was more RPG than either.

[iamtehpwn]

20 seconds in a editor is NOT the same as character that people have worked on for 4 years developing.

I'm sorry, No editor you give me can make a character like Cloud, or Kefka, or Zidane, or Squall, or Sora, or Lightning.

[AbyssGravelord]

Agreed 100%

[Simon_Brezhnev]

Yeah i agree and the best WRPG is The Witcher will be over taken by The Witcher 2.

[Chadness]

Agreed completely. That's how I see things. Not that creating and customizing your generic avatar isn't fun, it certainly is to a point. But, it is nothing like a pre-defined character built from the ground up to be intertwined in the lore and story of a game, instead of just "there".

[Redempteur]

i'd rather follow a complete story than to follow some choices that doesn't affect the story at all except some lines of dialogues that change .Same with characters customisation is important but it should come before the character themselves ( there are exception to this rule )

[JoelT]

But the truth is Square Enix and their Final Fantasy series are genre defining. They have always been visionaries and they're never scared of taking chances. More often than not the risks they take work out in their favor.

[Socrates]

First of all, some people are making a big deal about nothing. All this Bioware person talked about was what they feel makes a good RPG.

Second, look at the scores of Mass Effect 2 and Final Fantasy XII, I'd say most people agree that Bioware have a greater vision for what makes a good game. They are just expressing what that vision is.

[Simon_Brezhnev]

Dont give me that review score crap. ME2 and FFX13 are real generic when it comes to story. ME2 you save the universe from the collectors. Mass Effect 2 is just KOTOR with TPS. FFX13 is that great either but Mass Effect is for older audience and FFX13 is for younger.

[Chadness]

Don't go by review scores. They're highly subjective, HIGHLY. FFXIII got everything from a 4/10 to a 9/10. How does that give you a good idea of how the game rates?

Anyway, Square-Enix takes more risks than Bioware, because the fundamental Bioware RPG hasn't changed much in 10 years, where as Final Fantasy titles and new IPs out of Squeenix are always trying something new, whether or not it works.

Not to say that Bioware RPGs are bad by any means. I absolutely loved ME2...even more so than FFXIII.

[Lionalliance]

Sadly FF is not what it used to be...

[Figboy]

look at your comment because of the boobs?

i'm only partially kidding, and you make a good point. Square-Enix is the reason why western console gamers even BOTHER with the RPG genre in general.

if it wasn't for Final Fantasy, i wouldn't be an RPG fanatic at all.

i love both Eastern and Western style RPGs, and i love them BECAUSE they do things differently.

what Bioware is promoting is HORRIBLE! why should the RPG genre be tackled in just one way only? why should EVERY RPG feature character creation, or an open world environment?

all that that will accomplish is gamers complaining about the RPG genre like they do the shooter genre. all RPGs would be the same, and there would be a stagnation of creativity on the developer's part. WHY should other RPG makers subscribe to the template that Bioware prefers?

imagine if Uncharted 2 had stuck to the template that other third person games used?

what if Silent Hill stuck to the same template that Resident Evil used back on the PS1? both games are in the survival horror genre, and yet Silent Hill and Resident Evil are vastly different games.

Final Fantasy and Dragon Age are in the same RPG genre, but they are vastly different games. this is a GOOD THING.

why would Bioware encourage other developers to completely IGNORE their own creative leanings just to make thing like Bioware likes? it's incredibly selfish and arrogant.

it's like, "hey, i don't like to grow apples, so all farmers should stop growing apples, nevermind that people may actually LIKE apples compared to what i grow."

[taz8080]

That Bioware quote is borderline ridiculous. Curious as to what he was hoping to achieve by stating this?

[Hitman0769]

Headlines of course?

It is looking like it backfired though with the exception of Alfred E. Neuman no one is impressed.

[Christopher]

IMHO, if you classify FFXIII as an RPG, then so is God of War and Dante's Inferno.

They both contain the same RPG elements:

1. A storyline
2. You play as one or more characters
3. You can level up skills

Personally, for me an RPG requires:

1. Character driven storyline
2. Leveling of one sort or another

But, I'm an RPG snob...

[Optical_Matrix]

For you an RPG requires character driven story and leveling? FFXIII has both of those. What on earth are you on about? It's one of the most character focused storylines in the franchise. Not the best one, but the 6 characters are CENTRAL to the plot. And leveling...WELL, not only can you level up weapons and accessories, but also your characters paradigm roles? Which in turn unlocks more HP,MP and techniques. Sorry but anyone saying FFXIII isn't an RPG is a tool. Simple as that.

[raztad]

I think Fallout 3 is much closer to a RPG than both FFXIII and ME1.

[Christopher]

You do know what a "character driven story" is, right? It's a story that evolves based on character decisions/actions rather than a scripted story the results in the same outcomes no matter what. You see, character driven doesn't mean character focused, which is every single game out there with a story.

FFXIII doesn't evolve at all. Games like Planescape: Torment, Mass Effect 1 & 2, they evolve in many ways. I admit that ME2 is a lesser form of evolving, but it is dependent on the character's action how the ending is played out, even still giving you the choice at the final moment to decide how you will go into the next game.

Edit: Based on the agrees you've been given, there's more than a few people here who don't know what it means either. Sad, and these are people saying what is and isn't an RPG?

[Reibooi]

A character driven story is actually more about seeing the characters grow and change.

Good example. FFVII. Cloud is more or less the exact same character at the start of the game that he is in the end. Hence it's not a character driven game.

Final Fantasy XIII all the characters are different people by the end because of what they go through and what they experience. THAT is a character driven story. Each character grows and changes just like a real person would going through what they do.

EVERY game story goes on because of choices made by the character that is a given. That alone does not make a story character driven. The growth and change of a character does.

Mass Effect for example is not example character driven. Yes you as a character makes choices that changes the overall story. That said none of those choices affect the character of Shepard beyond giving you more renegade or Paragon points. A good example of this is my first play through of Mass Effect 2 Jack died. My Shepard was close to Jack. Yet when she died that was that. No change in Shepard at all. Hence not character driven.

[Optical_Matrix]

A character driven story is a story that is pushed through the way the character change and affect the narrative.FFXIII is a prime example of this as it was so reliant on the characters. More so than the crisis the world was actually in. Notice how at the end all the characters have changed. Example how how character growth effects narrative.ME on the other hand is not or at least less so.
Look it up if needs be, but I study literature and media where I have to write essays on this kind of thing and I'm telling you, character driven stories are all about how the characters emotions and development effect the course of the narrative. They "drive" the narrative.

[Christopher]

I'll give you that, but is not how it's been used in RPGs when defining how characters evolve the storyline. It's been used like that since as long as I can remember when discussing evolving storylines based on character actions and decisions.

So, to put it more into your liking... Change character driven storylines to... Storylines that evolve based on character decisions.

Also, ME2 is technically character driven by your definition because he does grow into different relationships with each character as well as personally. Shephard at the beginning isn't necessarily the same as how he ends, regardless of the intent of leaving open ends during critical occurrences. I wouldn't say that it doesn't change the character, only the character still progresses along the set primary goal of the story in order to get to the end of the story.

@darxed: ***You don't seem to know much about the genre, you know, you being a RPG snob and all... ***

Yes, I don't know squat about RPGs because I use it as a reference to game design rather than literary reference? Honestly, they're the only things I tend to play and whether my meaning was lost or not... I do know about RPGs.

[Reibooi]

.

[darxed]

@cgoodno
I was talking about game design, I'm no literary expert like Optical either. My complaint was that you said that a RPG requires, to use your words, storylines that evolve based on character decisions, but again, you say character when you mean player decisions, and games that let player's decisions alter the storyline are very few within the genre. My point was that if a RPG requires storylines that evolve based on player decisions, like Mass Effect 1/2, then ALL Final Fantasy games and the Zelda, Shin Megami Tensei and Disgaea series, by your definition, do not have what it requires to be a RPG.

[darxed]

What you're talking about is an RPG that changes outcomes - history paths based on player decisions, which are very few and between in the RPG genre as a whole, and to which the games you single out are examples. But if to you, an RPG requires that then I guess ALL Final Fantasy games are not RPGs? oh and neither the Zelda, Shin Megami Tensei, Disgaea and a hell of a lot more series in which every game is by miles more of an RPG than Mass Effect 2 was... All those franchise have great character driven storylines, hell some of them invented most RPG mechanics way before Planescape: Torment, Mass Effect 1 & 2 and KOTOR even were a thought...

You don't seem to know much about the genre, you know, you being a RPG snob and all...

[Torkith]

Oh Bioware...

[Tony P]

I agree with like the first sentence because trashing what others do simply because they don't do it like you is conceit, plain and simple.

I wish the article stopped there though cos those bad rebuttals don't do the argument any favours.

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

''assuming that only your brand of RPG is the only way RPGs can be done? I loved both Mass Effect''

Mass Effect is not even an RPG.

Is a Shooter with RPG elements. Can't believe people don't know the differences now.

[zatrox]

Mass Effect was more of a RPG with shooter elements.
Mass Effect 2 is a shooter with RPG elements.
Edit:
@Maxx
They completly stripped Mass Effect 2 of inventory management, etc. Something you find on a normal RPG.
Mass Effect 2 was a Shooter with a dating sim in it, nothing more

[The Maxx]

A shooter is a game where it contains more shooting than story. Mass effect 1 and 2 contained more story than shooting.

There was just as much shooting in Mass effect 2 as there was in Mass Effect 1.

[ATLGAMER]

Right

[n to the b]

the first & foremost reason ME1 is an rpg is because each attack u make goes thru a randomizer (die roll). a perfectly aligned shot can still miss.

*

"role-playing game
n. A game in which players assume the roles of characters and act out fantastical adventures, the outcomes of which are partially determined by chance, as by the roll of dice."

http://dictionary.reference...

"RPG most commonly refers to

...ROLE-PLAYING VIDEO GAME, which use[s] the settings and game mechanics of traditional role-playing games"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[Chadness]

I agree with you, actually. In fact, if you check my review of ME2 at DualShockers, and all my posts about it over the last 8 months or so, I never once refer to it as an RPG.

However, Bioware considers it an RPG, which is why I was referring to it as such in this particular article, because that is pretty much what the entire quote and article was centered around.

[Legosz]

Makes amazing RPG titles. Role Playing is stepping in ones footsteps and being the character themselves, and I think Bioware is best at that.

[karlowma]

Well put, Chad. I couldn't agree with you more. The Bioware quote (whether intentionally representative of the company or not, it is) is little more (or better) than the childhood playground banter, "My dad can beat up your dad." Live and let live; or should I say, game and let game.

[mirroredderorrim]

I don't care for trashing FFXIII, but it DID stray from what made the formula an instant win, with every release.

FFXIII is the first game that I felt I didn't care to play through again, in the series. And yes, I did like X-2, I enjoyed the hard hitting, fast paced version of the ATB system, without pausing for turns.

[zatrox]

"Stop trying to degrade other franchises to make yours look better, because nine times out of ten it has the exact opposite effect."
This. Bioware are acting like they're RPG gods, they aren't.
I mean their latest game IS a shooter. Seriously, a shooter. Not an RPG.
Oh well, I'm more of a SMT fanboy when it comes to JRPGs.
So fuck FF either way.
Also,
"I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again – I feel that generic characters, although highly customizable, ruin the depth of the RPG experience, because they aren’t connected to the story or the player in a way that a pre-defined character is, already being integrated into a story and its lore. I can’t care about my player-created character in Dragon Age: Origins as much as I would a very well defined JRPG hero or heroine because my character in DA:O is just that – generic. If you would have done DA:O like you did Mass Effect, and give us a pre-defined character, although letting us change their gender and/or appearance, I would have connected with the story a lot more. Oh, wait, I’m sorry, is that too much like a JRPG for you? It couldn’t be, you did it in Mass Effect. ‘Nuff said."

He did it again. It's pretty much obvious than Bioware are just being childish here, just like console fanboys. Seriously. Oh well, FF isn't a JRPG staple anyways, and if you want the REAL FFXIII, it's called Lost Odyssey

[Socrates]

Bullcrap. Mass Effect 2 feels like more of an RPG than FFXIII by far. It's an RPG because it has all the fundamentals of what RPGs have always been about. I don't care that the action is real-time. In fact, I love the fact that the action is real-time and enjoyable. That doesn't make it any less of an RPG.

[BubbleSystemSuck]

RESPECT

we are loosing the Respect.

[The real killer]

They call Mass effect serie's a RPG, it's far away from a RPG genre in my opinion.
Games like Oblivion/Gothic/Witcher/Risen/ Dungeonlords/Wizzardry series are the true RPG genres, not dragon age or Mass effect series, so boring.

But Bioware is not the best RPG makers, one of the best RPG makers is Piranha byte.

I know, i get allot of disagree's by those nerds

[cmrbe]

more than Bioware's games.

[The real killer]

Neverwinter Nights 2 this game and Dragons&Dungeons :)
Yes, i was forget that.

RPG games on console is gimpen all of the RPG genres.
PC is still the best for RTS/RPG games

[Tony P]

I like Obsidian's writing and general depth of mechanic better than BioWare's by far.

But they seriously lack for the all-important polish.

[cmrbe]

that think that ME2 is more of a shooter than and RPG. Gameplay wise ME2 to me is more of a shooter. The story presentation though is classic RPG.

[ClownBelt]

Bioware's RPG doesn't appeal to me. TBH, it looks garbage to me.

[Letros]

which one of 10+ were you referring to?

[Jerk120]

It looks garbage doesn't mean that it is garbage.

If you haven't played an RPG made by BioWare, you have no right to criticise BioWare's RPGs.

[00000000000000000001]

FFXIII is not a very good RPG, you just follow along. Both Dragon Age and Mass Effect you get to choose your path, both are very good and I have played both several times, they hold your interest. I can't even get myself to finish FFXIII, that should tell you how good I think it is!

[ATLGAMER]

I am a old school turn base guy....they have destroyed ff

[predator]

to me this generation Oblivion is still the best RPG I have played with Lost Odyssy coming close nd Mass Effect, I really want to get White Knight, is it worth buying? oh nd some of u may disagree but I also enjoyed blue dragon

[catch]

You might want to wait on White Knight. There is a rumor that WKC 2 will come with an updated version of the first game and it is likely that we will hear if it is true in the next couple weeks. I personally wasn't a big fan of the first game but if they use an updated engine I am willing to give it another shot as it has a lot of potential.

[Sarevok]

''Why must you go around spouting nonsense like you’re some elitest RPG god''

Yeah, well they did make Baldur's Gate, so it must be true!

[comp_ali]

"yawn" Fanboys..

[Bodyboarder_VGamer]

People these day think that they know more than the devs themselves. It is not only bioware saying that FFXIII it's not an rpg but Square themselves too.

"Because players are presented with multiple different situations on the field, in a lot of senses FFXIII is more like an FPS than an RPG," says director Motomu Toriyama. http://www.1up.com/do/blogE...

[catch]

Nowhere in that quote does it say it is specifically not an rpg.
The game clearly has many rpg elements in it and the fps comment was to give people the sense that the game would be more like a sweeping action-packed story than your usual slow paced exploration-based rpg.

A different kind of rpg yes but still an rpg.

[shuuwai]

1. you can't level. your char.
2. they tell you where to go.
3. game mech. was washed down. the dev even said they washed it down cause it was too hard..."too hard" what they meant to say was " we think gamers are too stupid and dumb."
3. creating chars features wasn't one of final fantasy strong pt; however, if you have foundation of good chars this isn't needed at all. Yet "i miss the old days when you could change the chars name."

Why picked Resonance Of Fate over FF13?

1. rpg game dealing with "GUNS" and crazy ninja moves.
2. good leveling system that's been upgraded but still keeping the core idea
and good example everyone would know would be the street fighter series moving into 2d/3d system.
2. towns!!!!! <----
3. as you level up so do the mobs in the old area <-- can't farm "sad panda"
4. fighting style different from other rpg such as " ff1-12"
the game mech is wick. Google it if you want to know more about it. -_-;;

Overall i think square-soft lost its fundamentals in creating a rpg game. Even so people will still buy SE games cause of their logo.

note: english isn't my first language.

[BannedForNineYears]

Sereh was a pretty bad character in FF13 imo......
-_-

[Zerodin]

Bioware made the weeaboos cry.

[booni3]

Dont take the comment to seriously guys. bioware are obviously FF fans..

[Jerk120]

BioWare IS RPG God.

[ClosingRacer]

AS much as i love Bioware and their games i would have to disagree with the statement that FF 13 isn't a RPG... It is a very good RPG just doing it differently then What Bioware "thinks" is a RPG. it is like bungie go calling Call of duty is not a FPS which is obviously a dumb idea

And really calling Mass Effect 2 a "RPG" can be a borderline lie( i consider it a RPG..but i can see people calling it a shooter action game with "RPG" elements) so they really don't have a right to deem what is a RPG or isn't

And on the RPG note i don't understand how oblivion and Fallout 3 are great games. Oblivion is a lazy developers game. where the gates are the same just move the towers in them from left to right and so on and Fallout 3 you can skip about half the story by just going to Vault 108 i think and use that dumb machine to get you into that dream world thing( the story was bland and i knew how the story would end once i left the Vault...well not the details but i knew he would die and "I" would have to save the world)