240°

The Truth About Move's Lag

PSInsider writes: Some sites have recently been reporting the PlayStation Move has "a noticeable lag", and used a 60fps video feed of it showcasing an augmented reality demo as proof. What they fail to mention is that lag is not universally applicable. We set things straight.

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MGOelite5169d ago

its nothing to do with move... theres a gif somewhere where a guy throws a sword up and spins it in the air and it show like 1ms lagg

raztad5169d ago

Socom 4 with MOVE looks really responsive as well, thats really promising considering the game and tech are still in development.

Greywulf5169d ago

Why do you take 1 account as fact over another? Joystiq had a great time with Move, and actually played the games, not testing for lag. The whole issue with lag is because no matter what, NATAL has a stated lag of 100ms by the developers themselves. Moves performance is 1:1. Now whether or not the software is showing it off at its final product at GDC, thats another case.

Move has shown without a shadow of a doubt that its working in Socom4 to aim, and navigate. Without detrimental lag to the games performance. Ping Pong including even top spin, also shows that the lag isn't the end of the world at this stage. Because again, Move's specifications are 1:1, as the onscreen hair/bee demos have all shown.

360 fans are falling over themselves to point out the lag in Move, but to what point? Its clearly working in more applications that Natal has ever been able to show. Keep pointing out the lag in Move releases, because there will be more and more. No one is getting frustrated and throwing the move away because its unplayable, which is what 360 fans are trying to portray, nope. People are enjoying the several game applications just fine. Of course there is lag, but its not as laggy as Natal's ball demos have shown, or burnout. Even the Wii has lag. The 6axis, has lag too.

I realize most of this is because NATAL is the biggest news for the 360, but its really not for the Playstation. Move is showin working with normal releases perfectly fine, and EA is even going to start bringing over Wii Titles. Clearly they are confident in the experience, even at this level. Which Journalists are finding to be good. As were several members of the press at GDC. Move is working, its working with all types of games, and Sony isn't afraid to show it off at this point because of how well its working at this stage.

Natal isnt. We will keep having to talk about this though, since there is absolutely nothing to talk about for 360 news except PS3 related items or events...

Motion controls are lame to begin with. But Move has more to show, in a more advanced working state than Natal has ever shown, and its working.

CrimsonFox135169d ago

Can you find it? I always wanted to see someone throw up or spin the Move controller!

sid4gamerfreak5169d ago

The move is still under development, so the lag should and will be fixed by Sony.

@arny: I was thinking the exact same thing, how come you guys diss the natal when its still under development but not with move. Pathetic.

Christopher5169d ago

While it's great that people enjoy the precision of the above linked gif... you do realize it doesn't show the difference in what he is performing off screen and on-screen, right? Meaning, how can you tell if there's lag if all you're looking at is the output?

Anyway, I definitely think there's a lot of potential for really analyzing the strengths of both Natal and PSMove, but it's not going to mean much until they get to a point where both companies say they're out of the core development stages, which both still are involved in.

Greywulf5169d ago

http://i43.tinypic.com/2r5c...

Just keep thinking its oh soooo laggy..

I never thought a Gif alone could own everyone but yea.

OnlyOnN4G5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

You can see 1:1 tracking in this gif...

http://i39.tinypic.com/xpv3...

@Greywulf

Yeah, the lag that others are seeing in the DF Vid is due to video feed lag during the augmented reality app, not controller lag, if you watch this ping pong gif i posted you'll see it's 1:1 because the PSEye is only tracking and not processing video.

kancerkid5169d ago

Looks cool for what it does. Practically no lag and 1:1 correspondence.

Hopefully Natal works on their software and make it practically lag free also (like what Nintendo did early)

I won't be getting Natal or Move, so it doesn't matter much to me, I just like observing the technological achievements.

IdleLeeSiuLung5169d ago

The Move will suffer lag like any other motion controlled device as the article pointed out.

If you only rely on the accelerometers/gyroscopes, you are limited to basically what the Wii does. If you rely on the camera, well you will introduce lag.

There is no way around it, you can minimize it, but it will be there. For camera based stuff (including Natal) you will have to complete the motion for the camera/software to recognize the whole motion. Thus you introduce lag, the only way around it is if you are able to predict the movements as in the case with Natal. Even then it isn't perfect.

With that said, there are game mechanics that don't need that level of precision/lagless controls nor do the majority notice or care about it.

In the end it is how you balance the game with the controls. Who knows, you might never notice it or frankly you might just adapt to it!

Wait until the product is out, it is too soon to make a judgment call until more games are released. I would just imagine what scrutiny Nintendo would have received when the Wii was released.... even then Wii Sports works great even with the lag and lack of precision. It is all in the software!!!

Bigpappy5169d ago

Sony has time to fix the laggy games. They look to be playable right now, but there is still a lot of time. Try not to take these web site too seriously as these are by no means the final release. In fact, Sony and M$ will have Kiosk in the stores for people to test before buying. At that point, you will know if the amount of lag is enough to make the controllers unacceptable. Never judge your purchase on someone else's opinion.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 5169d ago
-Alpha5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

There is absolutely no reason to try and justify Move's lag. It lagged. What's the big deal? The article say it lags "sometimes". The fact of the matter is that the product isn't in its final stage so there is absolutely no reason to try and justifying any lag we DO see. We can only assume Sony wouldn't release a product that doesn't work.

The only reason this is an issue is because PS3 fanboys are so worried over what the 360 fanboys will say, despite the fact that when Natal lagged PS3 fanboys were all over "Lagtal" for lagging... of course this was in likely response to 360 fanboys saying Move was a Wii clone... The cycle of ignorance never ends.

The irony in all of this is that PS3 fanboys loved to trash on Natal for lag (Lag-tal), and now they have to eat their own words. Of course they will make the same excuses this article and 360 fans made, which is the true hypocrisy of it all. I really don't care if people trash on Natal or Move for being laggy (despite the fact that most people will trash one and not the other for the same reasons). All I care about is the final product and fanboys can keep fighting some petty war over pre-released technology. It's like making fun of God of War 3's graphics at the beginning of the engine development.

@fr0sty below

Those of us who will be playing games like Socom? Who is to say what will have lag and what wont? NOBODY should be expecting lag on Move or Natal with the final product. If there is lag on "some" games it can be blamed on developers. Saying "Dont worry, our group wont experience lag" IS damage control and it's unnecessary. 360 fanboys must be having a good laugh seeing articles like this because people, for some reason, are actually worried enough about a pre-released product having lag that they have to make an article reassuring fans. WHY? That is exactly the paranoia fanboys love to egg on. Fanboys are so desperate to trash the other console that they can't even wait for the final product: this alone shows that people aren't willing to be fair, unbiased, or accurate when making silly claims like "lawl, Natal/Move has lag, it fails!"

Look how easily PS3 fanboys jumped on hating Natal for lag. Look how easily 360 fanboys jumped on hating Move for being similar to the Wii. We are witnessing a new fanboy war develop with motion control and in its earliest stages we can try stopping it, or at least recognizing it, yet people choose to buy into it. I can't WAIT to see how bad it gets when the products actually release if this is how things are when the products aren't even out.

Edit2 @frosty: Oh you wrote this article? I am not trying to disrespect your article at all. But I do think that your justification is poor. You don't know whether the final product of "games like Socom" will lag for sure, nor is it fair to say "don't worry, games like Socom wont lag" as if you don't care about casual games that may lag as proven by that Kotaku article (or whatever the hell they shown lag). My point is this: Lag is bound to be a technical issue, but the fact of the matter is that the only people who truly will dwell and exploit a simple technical problem like this are rabid fanboys waiting to sabotage the product. FFS, it hasn't even released yet and trying to make excuses for the lag by stating that it wont happen to "games like Socom 4" is damage control without any form of justification.

fr0sty5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

This isn't about justifying it's lag, it's about pointing out that the lag is only there in certain circumstances. They picked out the most laggy (and likely least used for core games) feature they could find to show off it's lag. This article is just to point out that those of us who will be playing games like Socom on Move shouldn't experience such lag, as it's not having to wait on the video feed from the camera to produce input. Something they failed to mention in the article.

In it's normal configuration, playing an average game, it has LESS than 1 frame of lag.

If this were damage control, I would have made a comparison video showcasing it's lag vs. natal's, which has far greater lag than move does even at it's worst.

WildArmed5169d ago

So basically it lags if you have video feed?
And no lag/minimal lag when you play it in a game w/o feed?

I'm not sure what to understand at this point in time >.<

fr0sty5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

Actually, there will be lag with natal because it is entirely USB based, and usb cameras have a lag in them (not even counting the time it will take the 360 to process that data into a wireframe skeleton that will then be mapped to in-game control).

We've all been using accelerometers and gyros with sixaxis and wii motion +, and neither lag (and move also has a magnetometer for added accuracy). That is how I know we won't get lag with socom, in addition to sites like arstechnica reporting it based on personal experience with move, because move has it's internal sensors for near-instant input.

With augmented reality like you see there (when eye puts you on screen with something in your hand), it has to first wait for the video from the camera (just like natal does) before it can do anything with the data the controllers' sensors are sending it, because it has to take that video and use the controller data to map an image of a sword over your hand.

But in an average game like, socom, this isn't required, so that lag you see in the video will not be there, just like Arstechnica and several other sites have reported.

iFLOWLIKEWATER5169d ago

You speak the truth and you deserve more bubbles...

Reibooi5169d ago

Well I somewhat agree with what you said I personally don't remember as much of the making fun of Natal being about the lag as much as it was about how glitchy the overall product was when they demoed it.

The Avatar Shoe and BAM there it isn't massive glitch live on stage would be what I am talking about and that's just one example of how glitchy natal seemed to me.

I personally think stuff like Natal and Move are stupid and pointless. Most of the games that use this tech on the Wii are not fun and are nothing but gimmicks and that gimmick stuff pulling people in seems to be slowing down. Making the games have better graphics with the same gimmicks isn't gonna change anything.

This isn't the type of tech that needs to be in games. It is not good enough or precise enough to make you really feel like you are playing something. It just makes you feel like a retarded waving your arms around and that will be a problem that won't go away any time soon.

OnlyOnN4G5169d ago

I posted this in the other thread...

"This isn't controller lag it's video lag and will only be seen in augmented reality applicatiions, you can exhibit this same kind of lag on a camera phone, if you wave your hand in front of it, you'd notice it doesn't capture your motion 1:1 in realtime, there's a delay. Now if you watch the Gif i post below you'll see there's no such lag with move because the camera is simply tracking and not processing video like seen in the augmented reality stuff posted on DF.."

http://i39.tinypic.com/xpv3...

Biggest5169d ago

Look at how fast iFANBOYLIKEWATER jumps on the spin cycle. It doesn't change the fact that Natal to this point has advertised more, talked more, and shown badly.

The Move, which is what we're here about, has shown itself to have real game applications. Sony is following through with their promise of providing for core gamers. Of course there will be some lag. The normal wireless controllers have lag as well. But the Move has shown 1:1 movement to be real. When the developers are finished with the games they are working on, hopefully the games have true 1:1 motion as well. The lag that is being talked about now is common sense and in no way a comparison to the Natal lag. There is no instant USB. So if the camera is connected through USB and the game features your physical image, there will be a slight lag. But that is for the casual game side of things. It doesn't matter for people that play games like Socom. And I would think, though I may be wrong, that the people that care enough about games to know this site and post here, are not the kind that want casual games.

iFLOWLIKEWATER5169d ago

I agree with Alpha, but don't assume I'm going to live in loserville and play favorites concerning motion control. I'm really not all that excited about either one. I'm sure I'll purchase them sooner or later, but I find trying to have sex with beautiful women is more deserving of my time than salivating over a piece of plastic...

kneon5169d ago

it seems a lot of people need a tech lesson before they comment. If you understood the two technologies being used for Move and Natal would know that Move will have less lag than Natal, there is just no way around it.

Natal uses a 30fps camera. That means that user input can't come in any faster than once ever 33ms. The video induced lag ranges from near 0 to 33ms for an average of ~16.5ms. That is just to acquire the image which then needs to be sent to the console for processing. Sending the data via USB must take less than 33ms otherwise it would fall behind and you would lose data. Lets guess 5ms. so we're looking at 20ms average before any processing is done, with a top end of 38ms. The processing task for Natal is non-trivial as there are no known markers to work with. It needs to figure out what in the image needs tracking and then track it (or them). This is a difficult task and will undoubtably take at least one frame. Now finally you have your user input data which can then be passed to the game code so that it can generate the next frame based on the user input

Move on the otherhand acquires user input data wireless in the same way as the dualshock so lag is no different than the normal wireless controller. The camera is only there to fine tune the positioning 60 times a second, it is not strictly needed for move to work, just to make sure it's accuracy stays within acceptable bounds. And this tracking of move via the camera is a nearly trivial task as it is looking for an object of known shape and color and size. The color is even adjusted to ensure better contrast with the backgroundd. So the data is aquired quickly and the processing is simple. How could it not have less lag than Natal.

There is just no way for Natal to have less lag than Move. Now that doesn't mean that Natal's lag has to be a problem, only that it will be more than Move. It is possible to keep it to an acceptable level but since Microsoft ripped out the on board CPU that is going to be harder to do.

The Wood5169d ago

dude....you cant like that around here...what you said actually makes sense. People who believe natal will have less lag than psM are really clutching. Bookmark this page...I guarantee you'll have use for it in the future

ChozenWoan5169d ago

+bub

For the augmented reality games your going to get camera lag, but as long as it's +/- 1/10 a second then players will be able to adjust to it. Besides, we all know that most of the augmented reality games are not going to be hardcore games so why worry about those anyway. The fact that the augmented reality games are not going to be among the high competition online games means that the lag shown in most of the demos is well within acceptable limits.

Now for hardcore games like Socom4, the PSMove will only use the cam to refine the positional data, thus lag will be less than 1 frame. This means that due to all of the added sensors, the PSMove will be quicker and more accurate than the analog sticks of a DS3. This will give players a very real advantage and thus seal PSMoves position as THE hardcore controller to have.

You might think I'm crazy... and I am. But after watching the Socom4 developer walk through, I am convinced that PSMove gamers will have a very real tactical advantage. One that I will definitely be using in as many shooters that support PSMove.

fr0sty5168d ago

actually kneon, you are perfectly right about MOST of that, but the PSEye actually captures it's video at 120FPS, not 60, in order to further reduce any lag. It can only shoot in 320x240 resolution this way, but that is way more than enough pixels to see glowing orbs, faces, and gestures. it's about the same res as a default youtube video, for those who do not know.

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Sonyslave35169d ago

LOL So the damages control begins

fr0sty5169d ago

Ok, so setting a site right for implying that the controller has lag on all games when it only does with augmented reality games is "damage control"? Not quite. Just calling out BS where we see it.

JasonPC360PS3Wii5169d ago

The droids will be working overtime on this

awesomeperson5168d ago

Hey Jason, we've got your comment about Metro 2033 under wraps.

And are we forgetting about Natals lag here?

Fishy Fingers5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

So whos playing with Move or Natal at the minute? No one, your using a pad, so unless the situation remains the same at launch can we all get off our motion control high horses?

There is a reason both are still in their development stages.

-Alpha5169d ago

You said what I said above but in less than 3 lines. Amazing

The Wood5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

the passion huh alpha, it just all flows out sometimes..lol but yeah Its not complete but we have seen it working so thats one thing out of the way i suppose

The people who are defending psM like a newborn are just the same as the people trying to attack it but on the other end of the scale. Its not even been released or tested by us so its a wash until then. 1 things for sure...it'll have less lag than natal plus i lag in real life so its already doomed to fail;)

Darkeyes5169d ago

Alpha, I like the way you frankly talk, but seriously put a stop on the essays... It's 12.30 past midnight here lol and I really feel sleepy seeing such a wall of text.

On Topic... If the devs pull that 100-130ms to a reasonable 75-80ms, then I don't mind. Anything above 100 will be evident, so they should aim for anything less than that.... Besides, I am 100% sure the thing will have less lag than Natal or the Wii mote... It will be great to see games like Socom 4 and many other perform on it... Can't wait.

Godmars2905169d ago

We're dealing with this crap because the Wii has falsely presented the success of motion control, and MS showed off Natal far too early.

The Wood5169d ago (Edited 5169d ago )

but Godmars290, isnt that how MS 'won' e3......¬_¬

truth is the media were ejaculating over staged stage shows and wizard of oz manipulation and thats how the western media is. sony 'showed' ms 'faked' and 'promised' but natal is the second coming?......they're setting themselves up big time.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 5169d ago
tunaks15169d ago

Craig Harris of IGN cleared things up in their podcast,
the camera is a couple seconds behind and causes the lag, nothing else just the EyeToy can't keep up the video capture when the ps3 is rendering the graphics. The also said the rail shooter that comes with move has a lag on the cursor. I guess we'll see when it ships.

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80°

7 Deserving Games That Never Got Backward Compatibility

Backward compatibility works for many games on newer consoles, but titles such as The Simpsons: Hit and Run have been left out.

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20 Best Survival Games of All Time

From base building to swinging willies, here are the best survival games around, which include a couple of less than obvious picks.

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210°

Microsoft once tried to nab LittleBigPlanet from Sony after a few drinks

It turns out that many moons ago, Microsoft once had its eye on the Sony published LittleBigPlanet series.

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XiNatsuDragnel2d ago

Microsoft had a good idea but fumbled it again.

Cacabunga21h ago(Edited 21h ago)

Project Spark idea was decent but they quickly gave up ..
LBP was wonderful

ApocalypseShadow1d 15h ago

Microsoft in a nutshell. Always tried to poach Sony employees, games, 3rd party games and devices like the depth camera that was turned into Kinect but was running on PS2 before Xbox 360. Wouldn't be surprised they wanted LBP. Just like they worked behind the scenes pushing the MLB to bring Sony's baseball game to Xbox instead of making their own.
https://www.playstationlife...

They didn't spend years trying to develop their own baseball game. They wanted Sony's game.

They're scum.

Zachmo18220h ago

Microsoft didn't force MLB on Xbox. MLB gave Sony 2 options either go multiplat or risk losing the license.

Rynxie10h ago

And why do you think MLB said that? I believe Ms approached MLB.

ApocalypseShadow9h ago(Edited 9h ago)

Totally ridiculous comment.

The only exclusivity Sony had was to their own creation of The Show. Microsoft could have paid the MLB for the license just like Sony did and made their own baseball game.

Microsoft instead, groomed MLB for years in trying to poach Sony's game and bring it to Xbox. They're worth 3 TRILLION dollars. You think that's not enough money to make their own baseball game? Don't be delusional.

Microsoft spun it like they always do and told the media that they had to trust Sony with their hardware. After they put Sony in that position of not having a choice. Either go multiplatform or stop making one of their successful games. That's a no win scenario.

And what did Microsoft do? They didn't try to sell the game to the Xbox community. They put it on game pass to hurt Sony. Pushing the idea of why buy games that are $70 when you can play them in their cheap service for $10. It was a dirty tactic.

You fell for the Kool aid drink Microsoft served you instead of spitting it out. Hope it tasted good because you were fooled by Phil and the gang.

4h ago
Hereandthere1h ago

Xbox executive Sara Bond has told Axios that Microsoft spent a number of years trying to get MLB The Show onto Xbox consoles. And when it finally succeeded in breaking off PlayStation’s long-held exclusivity, the company had to “trust” Sony with pre-release Xbox Series X/S consoles.

Bond revealed that MLB The Show “always came up” in conversations between Microsoft and the Major League Baseball organization. “We always said, ‘We love this game. It would be a huge opportunity to bring it to Xbox.'” she recalled. However, when Microsoft’s efforts materialized, it put the company in an awkward situation where it had to send in pre-release consoles to a rival company.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 1h ago
Notellin6h ago

"Microsoft instead, groomed MLB for years in trying to poach Sony's game and bring it to Xbox."

Take a nap, conspiracies are rotting your brain.

4h ago
Hereandthere1h ago

Xbox executive Sara Bond has told Axios that Microsoft spent a number of years trying to get MLB The Show onto Xbox consoles. And when it finally succeeded in breaking off PlayStation’s long-held exclusivity, the company had to “trust” Sony with pre-release Xbox Series X/S consoles.

Hereandthere1h ago

They were too cheap/inept/lazy to develop their own mlb game, so they port begged for years and bribed the mlb to make the show multiplatform. Like i said many times, xbox brought nothing to the table their 24 years, ZERO.

OtterX22h ago

"However, Healey said Media Molecule wouldn't have felt right doing that, adding it would have been "morally corrupt"."

Major kudos to Media Molecule for being an upright studio with principles.

RNTody22h ago(Edited 22h ago)

Great, more stories like this please. Show the last of the zombies holding the line what we've been saying for years: Microsoft is anti competition, anti industry and has no interest in making games at all.

But hey, at least there's an Xbox Games Showcase to look forward to, right?

Inverno21h ago

Well considering SONY just killed the series, LBP would've been dead by now either way. Though MM probably wouldn't exist by now either, so I'm glad they stayed with SONY, hopefully they don't get shut down any time soon or ever honestly.

Inverno19h ago

They shut down the servers, that's millions of user created levels gone. That and dead are pretty much the same, it's also been years since 3 and they cancelled HUB soooo.

4h ago
fsfsxii6h ago

They shutdown the servers because no one was playing, no one in the community cared about the user created levels so why keep them up? Wtf you guys would never succeed in running a business.

Inverno5h ago

Yea dood no one was playing so they shut off the servers. Cause people with enough common sense can't just Google why they were actually shut of, right?

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