Is the Xbox 360 crippled by its use of DVD?

Suite101 looks at how Microsoft's decision to stick with the use of DVDs is affecting the Xbox 360.

[GreenRingOfLife]

Umm no. If you really care about multiple discs then just buy a harddrive to install your games to simple as that. You already have to mandatory install games on Ps3 so it pretty much makes the whole ps3 vs 360 argument in this case useless

[-Alpha]

You don't have to mandatory install ALL games.

360's technology is obviously older, but I don't think it's a big issue either, at least not with the games right now. None of the games right now on the 360 require anything major past DVD9's, and if it does, then they use extra discs. I don't see the big issue with disc swapping.

The solution is there: just use more discs. But there are, apparently, fees. Not sure how expensive it is, but I don't think that's what's keeping devs back.

The thing is that devs aren't making games that require TOO much space, at least not third party devs. MS's exclusives like Forza use multi-disc. DVD9's are just fine for the majority of games, and at worst people will need multiple discs to swap in and out. The problem comes when devs have to compress and compensate because they don't want to go multi-disc. It affects the PS3 too because if multiplatform games are keeping the 360 in mind then perhaps they will simply make a game with the 360 in mind and then port it to the PS3 since it's easier to develop for the 360 rather than make a game with the PS3 in mind and then port to the 360, provided that said game doesn't utilize the PS3 as much. That's why more multiplat games look slightly better on the 360. Space hasn't been a big issue, but developing for the PS3 has been difficult for some devs, though by and large, most (*ahem* Valve) have gotten used to the PS3's architecture

This article poses a question and doesn't bother to go into too much detail or even answer the question. Sounds a bit like flame bait honestly. They are already stating what has already been known, so I don't get the point of this. Yeah, LP2 is having trouble, but it's not that big of an issue to use another disc. The problem comes with these fees that devs have to pay, and I'm not sure how much it is but it sucks that they have to do that. The thing is that the 360 is still the lead platform because it still has a bigger audience than the PS3 and more sales with multiplat titles, and additionally it's easier to develop for. Sony PR states third party publishers are coming to the PS3 and if Sony's sales continue to climb past the 360 then we could very well see devs focusing their attention on the PS3 as the lead platform. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon as 360 sales do continue to grow and the US market is Sony's toughest this gen. Even if Sony takes the lead it still is much easier for third party devs to work on the 360 as the primary console since it's similar to the PC, so the PS3 mostly just relies on it's first party studios.

@Green below
Again, the fees and the fact that devs just aren't making THAT big of games seems to imply MS is not in any major trouble right now. The article only seems to list one or two instances of large games that the 360 held back. So yeah, I don't think MS is crippled with their technology just because the majority of devs don't seem to be making anything vastly huge. FF is an example though, but again, it's one instance. If, in the future, it's common for games to be huge then MS may have trouble, but I'm not sure how quickly the technology will advance. The thing is, the biggest games this gen seem to be from Sony's first party. I'm not *saying* that "OMG K2 and Uncharted is impossiblez on teh 360!1!", but if a lot of games were up to the standard of high-end PS3 exclusives then the 360 would constantly be spammed with multi-disc releases. Unfortunately, major third party games still aren't using much farther than what the DVD 9's offer. But, we'll see with future titles. I wonder how Crysis 2 will end up on consoles...

Also: Does anyone know WHY MS charges royalty fees? I'm assuming that others are assuming that MS is an evil greedy corporation, but is that the legit reason or an assumption? Just wondering..

[GreenRingOfLife]

You have to install pretty much all PS3 games to your harddrive before playing

If devs making 360 games don't want their games to be limited (in other words they are just too lazy to learn how to compress anything) then release it on multiple discs which you can then install to your harddrive before playing

In other words, if the 360 is crippled by using DVDs then PS3's bluray is being wasted since you still have to install games on both before playing (whats the point of having the extra disc space then?). I don't see whats so difficult to understand here

[Redlogic]

mandatory installs are nothing like multi disc games. I don't even get how you could come up with a line like that with bullsh!t not flying out of your mouth at the same time. Also, to same something is ignorant as "just buy a hard drive" something that costs a ton of money more than it should just shows how out of touch you are with the rest of the world. There are gamers and parents who bought an arcade 360 not realizing that they needed a hard drive, but hey if you want to buy one for all of those gamers I say go ahead. MS should have built the HDD in with the console, then its problem solved.

[Nitrowolf2]

well games like UC2 and FF13 show that Mandatory installs are sometimes not needed, But i think what this author is trying to say that its not just affecting how many disc is used but how the game looks (FF13 shows) and like he mention for RAGE on what the devs said about it having to be compress and look worse, even cut stuff that becomes DLC (even when they are free) should be on the disc day one, what of those who don't have connection to internet? I think that was MS big mistake with staying with dvd rather then have HD DVD (i know this came out later but i mean MS should have known about this if they were planning on releasing a HD DVD for 360 right?. People say Blu-ray is not needed, but that is utter BS. Once again FF13 all on one disc not compressed, 1080p cutscenes, lostless audio, Look at tales of vesparia, PS3 version has better coloring for its animation, and more content on the disc. Even the devs for GTA said something about disc space.

Okay allot of PS3 games require installs, i get that but klets take a look at FF13 like i said requires no install, same with uncharted 2, and now even God of War 3,KZ2, some of these games out there i wonder why do they need installs if these games right here listed pretty much are the top PS3 games this gen and are probaly bigger then most ps3 games out there, why do they require installtion? i think it might be a development issue, cause these guys they have it right. But any way look at FF13 superior version is the ps3 version. Why? because its not compressed like the 360 version and thats stretched out to 3 disc.
now this also explains why so many devs are saying there games is only possible on the ps3, Its not that they can't make it for the 360 its just that it won't be at the same level of graphics and quality like the ps3 has it at.

You should know this actually, Its not about whether you have to install the game its about how the game will end up lookign and how much content you have.
----------------------------- ------------------------------ - ------------------------------ - ------------------------------ - ------------------------------ - ------------------------------ - ------------------------------ - -
Question: Does installing part of a game take away from the look of the game? The content of the game? does it force devs to cut back on stuff and make them into DLC?

[Darkeyes]

"You have to install pretty much all PS3 games to your harddrive before playing "<-------- That is wrong my friend since most current games don't require a HDD install be it KZ2, UC2, GOW3, FF13... And the major difference is the fact that ALL PS3s come with a mandatory HDD unlike the 360 which is still selling a SKU without a HDD.You are a part of a small group here or N4G that knows about this, but if devs made mandatory installs, then it would f*ck the millions of Arcade owners (who are idiots to have bought the thing without HDD in the first place). M$ themselves won't allow it an will try to force devs to cramp the game as much as they can into 1-2 DVDs.

Plus add to this the fact that M$ charges royalties over the extra disc.Even if they cut that thing,DVDs don't come for Free and someone has to bear the cost of that. It might not sound much, but for a game like GTA/Halo/Gears which sell more than 5-7 million it becomes a big loss for someone (publisher or M$ would bear at least 5 million loss which is a hell of a lot.... Note Gears 2 was developed for something like 9 million). Hence M$ themselves urge devs to cramp things up in 2 disc if possible.

[Al Bundy]

Tell me, how can an open world game like GTA5 be split up onto multiple discs? To go to island #3 insert disc 3. To go back to Island #1 insert disc 1. To go to island #2 insert disc 2. That wouldn't be feasible.

[Strange_Evil]

Holy crap did the mod sleep on the Disagree button or does a 360 fanboy seriously need a life? 5 minute ago, 0 disagree and suddenly I see 20 disagrees lol?!

[-Alpha]

Everyone has 22 disagrees??

Al Bundy:

It doesn't work like that where each island would hold 9 GB of space. There are ways to incorporate and wisely use the disc space to flow with gameplay. Devs have done that.

Also, like I said, a lot of games this gen SO FAR have not used space that warranties multiple discs, especially GTA. In the future, Xbox's DVD's will show even more strain, but right now it seems like the beginning of the turn more so than the turn itself. I don' think MS has to worry right now, though long term they may be screwed. The question is how fast devs are going to advance, especially since most of them are leading with the 360. Crysis is a good example of a 3rd party game that seems to advance past the 360's limits, but most 3rd party games don't venture too far out of the 360's limits.

[Saaking]

Yes

Last year alone, Halo 3 ODST and Forza 3 had to be spread across two disks.

This year, ME2 already suffered, Lost Planet 2 has had content cut, and FFXIII is showing definite signs of being gimped.

I'll bet Fable III, Alan Wake, and Halo Reach will all be on 2 disks, not to mention Rage which will probably be on 3 disks.

We're not in the 90's anymore. MS needs to get with the times or get out.

[LordMarius]

GreenRingofBungie come hit my disagree button, I expect 20 in less then a minute, GO

[OtherWhiteMeat]

Damn Bungie, How many accounts do you have???My guess is 22.

[Saaking]

How many accounts does Bungie have? A LOT.

He get's nearly 100 disagrees with most of his commments and yet NEVER looses bubbles. In fact, he gains bubbles. Same thing with Green Ring of Life (one of hist multiple accounts).

I'll admit that I am a troll, but at least I don't spend my life on N4G bubbling myself up. I mean seriously, everyone hates GreenRingofLife yet he has 6 bubbles. WTF is up with that?

[-Alpha]

"Last year alone, Halo 3 ODST and Forza 3 had to be spread across two disks."

But it still managed to have content, multiple discs isn't a problem, it's just inconvenient. Consider all the multiple discs games of last gen had. It was never a problem, it was just inconvenient. Devs are never limited to one disc, though in MS's case these "fees" may scare them away from creative freedom.

"This year, ME2 already suffered, Lost Planet 2 has had content cut, and FFXIII is showing definite signs of being gimped."

How did ME2 suffer from multiple discs? LP2 sounds likely, and FF13 was gimped because it is a badly ported game-- I don't think this has anything to do with space. In LP2's situation the game was compressed instead of expanded. It's the devs choice, not MS's problem.

"I'll bet Fable III, Alan Wake, and Halo Reach will all be on 2 disks, not to mention Rage which will probably be on 3 disks."

Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that the games will be any less than if they were on a bluray disc.

"We're not in the 90's anymore. MS needs to get with the times or get out."

PS2 did just fine with multiple discs. MS is doing fine... for now. The technology is certainly catching up, but space is not an issue of information, just an issue of fees and inconvenience. Yes, more games are getting bigger but this will just lead to more discs being used. If more discs aren't used then games will suffer. It all depends on if devs are going to expand or not. The issue is if devs aren't willing to pay fees and if they are going to compress games to fit MS's DVD format. If that happens as in the case of LP2 then MS is holding devs back.

[D4RkNIKON]

My N4G account has been acting up and wont let me log in on my laptop or ipod any more. I am using my girlfriends laptop now.. Very odd, and also not cool. Has any one else ever encounter this problem?

[supraman21]

Nah saaking I really dont think your a troll. Everytime you say something yea sure its Pro PS3 but you always make a point and state fact. I always see you giving props to MS and its games so no I dont think your a troll. I really think your one of the sane ones around her well alil bit more pro PS but not a troll. Alpha male bjorn bear are also the normal people on this sight. Alpha male always gives props to both sides of the war.. Bubblesss to alll muhahahahahhaa muhahah.

Yeah I called her up. She gave me a bunch of crap about me not listening to her, or something. I don't know, I wasn't really paying attention.

[Saaking]

@Alpha Male

That's my point man. Notice how you keep bringing up the PS2? Well, we're in the 7th generation of gaming NOT the 6th. We shouldn't have to put up with this anymore.

Anyways, as much as you deny it, multiple disks is an issue. It ruins the flow of the game. You get excited and then BAM change the disk. It just throws you off. Yes, it only takes 30 seconds to switch disks, but it still takes you out of the experience.

Oh, and I think what I said about ME2 was too harsh. It didn't cripple the game (the game looks amazing and plays great). I just meant to say that it does intrude on the experience. You get all into it and then you have to switch disks. I will admit, that the swap is placed in a nice way, but still. Anyways, that's my issue with multiple disks.

[unrealgamer58]

face it, It's pathetic to use multiple discs in this day and age. So stop letting microsoft brainwash you into defending them.

p.s 360 fanboys ran to this article huh? lol

[-Alpha]

"Anyways, as much as you deny it, multiple disks is an issue. It ruins the flow of the game. You get excited and then BAM change the disk. It just throws you off. Yes, it only takes 30 seconds to switch disks, but it still takes you out of the experience."

Ok, that's a very valid and fair point that I overlooked.

Your right, multiple discs is problematic-- however I'm not 100% sure if games still run the way you say it does. I mean, like Al said above: you travel from one GTA island to another and you have to change discs. A lot of games aren't like that with multi-discs.

I think 2 discs is fine, though the more there are the more annoying it gets. I guess it's up to devs to spread them perfectly.

Anyways my main concern with multi-discs is with devs being forced to either compress or pay to expand which seems like it could become an increasingly common situation as the months go by.

The 360 was very short-sighted. The PS3 suffered from being far-sighted, as Blu Ray pretty much crippled sales at launch, but now it seems that time is catching up to MS.

@Feelintheflow

You make a very good point: MS HAD to gain momentum and steal Sony's fans. They did do it with coming out before Sony though, but it resulted in botched hardware issues.

MS has done a good job gaining a foothold in this industry, no doubt about it. Sony fanboys last gen laughed at the Xbox and said it would go out faster than the Dreamcast but MS held on and fought.

I still fear that MS went too early though, and though they have garnered fans faster than Sony this gen they may also lose their fans to Sony in the long run.

Maybe PS3 fanboy prophecy is just getting to me, but the PS3 really is more future-proof and articles revolving around DVD limits proves that.

Again, games dont always go multi-disc-- a large majority are single disc or two discs, and MS has great games regardless of hardware. I'm sure they can maintain, but we will see how it goes.

[feelintheflow]

Think about it. MS was hoping to just make a bigger dent in what was a market dominated by Sony. They new the PS3 was going to be expensive. The only chance they had to make a bigger dent in market share was to come out first and make sure you are cheaper than your competitor. Had they put a HD-DVD or a Blu ray drive in the 360 the cost would have obviously been much much higher. They took a gamble that it would be a few years before their storage device was going to be a big detriment.

It has been three plus years and we are only now starting to hear about dvd-9 being a big deal holding developers back. They have done much better sales wise than anyone would have even imagined. There is no way anyone thought 3 years into this cycle that MS would still have more 360's sold than PS3's. Will sony win this gen, (not including wii for the sake of argument), of course. Anyone who thought differently, before the first xbox360 was sold, was only kidding themselves. Microsoft is probably sitting back saying, mission accomplished. The only knock is reliability. They will probably not get the gains next gen they had hoped for, because some people will be a bit wary of hardware reliability.

[MGSR THE HD VERSION]

these people were in the darkness but now they've turned to the light...the flash of alan wake's flashlight has guided them to see it and do a massive disagreeing. http://www.gamersyde.com/po...
http://www.gamersyde.com/po...

...............it's either that or something, cause i know when i see that game i know these dumb complaints of disc space has to be false.

well, my two cents, later.

[Tinted Eyes]

Wow he has that much multiple accounts to agree with himself and disagree with others?

How sad.

Anyway you couldn't expect DVD9 to last forever.

[Bathyj]

I cant believe some of you'se think space doesnt matter.

What it GTA5 were to be twice as big as GTA:SA, with 6 huge cities, all the vehicles, planes, helicopters, jetskis, weapons, buildings with interiors, all in HD and it cam to 45GB.

Sounds good huh? Shame no one will ever make it, unless its a PS3 exclusive, because no ones going to chop a game like that up in 3 discs, so I guess it just wont happen.

God, devs were running out of room on PS2, why is this so hard to understand?

And riddle me this, if DVD is ok now, will it be next gen and if so why? Whats suddenly going to change that makes it so. HD graphics are what made DVD obsolete this gen, so are next gens console going to be 4000P or something.

[slayorofgods]

Actually, PS3 installs are not always mandatory. Technically speaking, it is possible to get around any mandatory install on any PS3 game. However, for the sake of getting games released faster developers often go with mandatory installs. Developers also get better at mastering Blue Ray technology as they make more games, do you notice the installs getting smaller in size, or even absent from first party developers?

P.S. Your constipated avatar really bothers me, I want to disagree with everything you say just for that picture alone.

[under taker 34]

@ 1.22
I think i don't want to see that many places, most gta games are far too long and i usually never finish the game. plus with all that dlc stuff, that just adds to it. so having more stuff and places to explore would be hard for me to be able to enjoy all of it.

[Maddens Raiders]

Hello world, it's 2010.

[Christopher]

I own more than 50 PS3 games. Only 10 of them require a HDD install. 11 When Heavy Rain comes out.

Now, I don't mind installs on my PS3 compared to my 360 solely because for the cost of 500GB HDD for my PS3 I couldn't get a 120GB HDD for my 360. I do mind that certain developers just can't design their games so they don't need installs. I also do mind that developers cut - or claim to cut - 1/3 to 2/3 of the game because they want to keep discs down to 1 or 2 and then sell us the parts they supposedly cut as DLC down the road rather than just putting it on the service for download and play for free on day one.

[blackmagic]

Yes, blu-ray has a space advantage but consider this. If Sony launched the PS3 at the same time as the 360 and it cost $400 instead of $600 would the 360 even be in this race? Sony was forced to launch a year later and at a higher price point because of blu-ray and it has cost them dearly. If they had launched in tandem with the 360 and at the same price but with a DVD drive instead of Blu-ray, I have no doubt in my mind that Sony would be solidly beating Microsoft by atleast a 2:1 margin. Heck, they may have even been challengining the Wii for install base.

[Anon1974]

It's really rather rare to see PS3 games with mandatory disk installs. I think of the 25 PS3 games I own right now only 2 have mandatory installs, RE:5 and Batman: AA. Lots of room left on my 250GB harddrive for expansions, PSN games and videos.

And even when there are installs, isn't that a good thing? To me it's just one more tool in the developers arsenal. Some use it, some don't. It's no big deal either way. I played games off my PC harddrive for over 20 years. Someone want to explain to me how harddrive installs are something to be looked negatively on?

[morganfell]

First it must be realized that DVD9 only nets you 8.4Gb of space. Out of that, MS has been occupying over a GB for security purposes. A practice which any visit to a bit torrent site will demonstrate is quite futile.

You can't just put island 1 on disk 1, island 2 on disk 2, etc. Doing it in that manner will necessitate replicating textures, models, sound, the whole shebang, on each and every disk. Such a practice nets you little space on each disk.

In addition and as it has been pointed out, someone must bear the cost of a disk. In some peoples inexperienced mind, they believe such a cost is negligible. Tell that to Microsoft who are refusing to pay the cost of a 3rd disk for Rage. A decision which will harm the quality of the 360 version.

Some people think that because only a handful of developers have commented on the issue there must not be a problem. They need to understand that such comments are like an iceberg. By the time you catch wind of it, see anything, the problem has grown to huge proportions that are not visible.

By the time you hear about DVD9 problem in public, it has already swelled to a massive issue for developers that are trying to push boundaries.

And to anyone that believes every PS3 game must have an install, thanks for demonstrating you know nothing about Sony's console. After all, how big was the Killzone 2 install? That's right, there wasn't one. How big was the install for Uncharted 2? That's right, there isn't one.

When the 2 best looking games this generation do not need an install it becomes patently clear that the PS3 does not have an Achilles heel in that department.

[duplissi]

uh no, even when you install the game to your hard drive you are still required to swap the disks.... for a fanboy its odd how you are unaware of this.

[SWORDF1SH]

Games like gta are crippled. if you have multi disk for a open world game like this then the game will be a disk swapping mess

[Genesis5]

I am not trying to be rude to anybody. But how blind do you have to be to keep saying that DVD9 is still good to go for this advancing generation of games.

[Oner]

Anyone who simply doesn't understand or disagrees that more space available to devs is good, while limitations PLUS penalties for multidisc usage is bad (i.e. dvd9) for the 360 ~ is either just down right immature, biased or simply stupid. This has nothing to do with Blu-Ray, Sony or whatever. LIMITATIONS are not conducive for imagination and will restrict the kind of game you want to experience and are ultimately spending your money on. PERIOD.

[playboi28]

No matter how you cut it, disk space is an issue. Even if you don't feel that it is a prominent issue now, you will in the future. Games are evolving, they're taking more space, and the result is they are getting better.

It may not seem like much of an issue, but does anyone remember when CDR's only fit 74 minutes of music? How many times did you have to sacrifice a song on your CD? What if the artist had to sacrifice a song? Would you rather them release a double CD and split your songs up? Or maybe release the CD and tell you to download the last few songs on mp3?

And also, mandatory installs on PS3 are different than installs on Xbox360. On PS3, you would only have to install maybe a GB or two. Xbox360 requires you to install the entire game. Alot of early adopters (such as myself) only have a 20GB hard drive if any hard drive at all. Microsoft charges entirely too much money for their hard drives.

[execution17]

ha funny one, but yea the 360s dvd format is probably a reason why we're getting so much DLC lately. basically hurting every 360 and ps3 gamer out there

[playboi28]

Look, I am by no means a fanboy. I have both systems and I even have the majority of my games on Xbox, but facts are facts. Why be so biased against the PS3? Do you work for Microsoft? Are they paying you?

Microsoft is the same greedy company they have been for years. The fact is that they were warned about their disc format when they released their system. Had they released their games on HD-DVD, there really wouldn't be an issue would there. Microsoft always does that. They release a product not containing something that people want. Then they tell everyone that they don't want it and why they don't. Someone comes and gives the people what they want and then Microsoft then provides it at an inflated cost.

[feelintheflow]

Did you not read what I wrote. I think it had way more to do with timing/price , which yes i know is greed, but more for survivability. There was no way if microsoft waited and charge the same amount, that they would have sold as many as they did. Do people not remember last gen? 100+millions ps2's sold. MS had a choice to make: Make a system that has the same capabilities as the competitor and come out at the same time/price, or rush something out that will hit the market sooner and be less expensive. Had they waited and put HD-dvd in or even Blu-Ray, they would have maybe half of the sales if that. So they did what they had to do to make inroads into the dominating market share that sony had. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that dvd-9 is better or even sufficient for the size of games, but as a strategy for this gen, Microsoft made a choice and I think it worked for them. Not gamers so much, but for them as a company. Look at market share this gen compared to last. Even when this gen dies out, they will have sold many more 360's than regular xbox's and at the end of the day, that is exactly what they wanted to do.

[Sarcasm]

"You have to install pretty much all PS3 games to your harddrive before playing." And I thought they couldn't get any more stupid.

[MGS_fanatico_]

Short answer? Yes.
Long answer...YEEEEEEEES!

[playboi28]

@feelintheflow

Microsoft had a choice. The HD-DVD was released close enough to the launch to be a viable disc format. Microsoft rushed their system out and as a result, it was extremely flawed. Also, a bigger and newer disc format is not as simple or practical to pirate.

[Advari]

The only way the PS3 is a mandatory install is to cut down the load times on certain games. The Xbox does suffer with the DVD format because the DVD is limited on what it can hold for info when compared to the Blu-Ray. The DVD format is old its like putting Gears of War on the old Xbox you would need two discs for that. You can only compress so much on a DVD before the quality is shot down the tube. And who the hell wants to disc swap with this generation of consoles thats the last thing on my mind when I am heavy into a game. Disc Swapping is for the old generation of consoles not this generation if they can phase out something useful like backwards compatability why not phase out something uesless like disc swapping also.

[unicronic]

The Mandatory Install issue is not as common as it used to be. More Devs are figuring out how to get around this as they understand the hardware more.

The issue is DVD space vs. Blu-Ray space. It will eventually become an issue, right now it's only just starting to emerge so naturally it is being blown out of proportion.

But sooner or later it will become a problem for some Devs. Take Lost Planet 2 as an example, Capcom et al have already said they had to trim lots of content away from the game to get it onto a DVD.

Microsoft could have avoided all of this by making HD-DVD a media for the games not just movies.

[Myst]

It's not the fact that they use the DVDs it's more so on their [Microsoft's] practice. It has been stated over and over on here and other places that Microsoft charges devs for the additional DVD. If that was taken out of the equation I think games would probably be longer; and much larger than where they currently are [ on the 360 and quite possibly PS3] Since they wouldn't be held back.

[sikbeta]

As I said in other post, let the Devs use the Amount of Discs they NEED, after all if swapping 3Discs is not a problem, 4 or 5 Disc will not be a problem either and when I say Let them use more discs I talking about Don't charge[MS] them[DEVS] for more Discs

[Myst]

Exactly switching discs isn't a problem, hell Lost Odyssey had four discs and because of that it was a pretty lengthy game. If more discs means better game play mechanics as well as longer play time then go for it. Why Microsoft thinks in a backwards motion is beyond me. If they simply dropped the charge they would have some interesting games since the devs wouldn't have to worry about the cost for extra discs.

[beardpapa]

If MS took out the cost for extra discs, then devs would probably build larger games without having to resort to turning the content that couldn't fit into DLC. At the same time, this would mean more discs to one game and may give the PS3 an advantage ... or rather prove a point that blu-ray was indeed a better medium.

I could see that the extra costs for additional discs [and limited storage] is really holding developers back. Makes me wonder just how much more costly it is to go beyond 3 discs.

[morganfell]

Definitely the games would be larger were it not for DVD9 on one of the platforms. The titles would encompass more material on the PS3 because the PS3 has been held back by DVD9 limitations on the 360. This did not necessarily occur at the beginning as games were still evolving and were initially below the requirement. But we are at the point now where the rumblings heard by the public are the result of huge issues at development houses.

It all stems from the screwing we are getting by the publishers that are so afraid to alienate 360 fans by providing a version to them that has less play material than the PS3 version.

[morkendo]

look guys, only reason 360 is ahead of ps3 is becuz we all know it started out to high of price 600.00 had it been 400.00 we would not still be talking about 360 in 2010 it would been in loving memory as dreamcast. FACT!!...also since 360 capacity is 9gb and ps3 capacity is 25-50 GB would not that be a reason for dev. drag they're azz's longer to keep 360 in the game. instead of allowing ps3 reach its full potential?? the question is WHY IS DEV. HELPING 360 stay in the console game?? why the dev. not ultilizing ps3 potential??
WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE IBM,Toshiba,sony colaborated again for making the CELL??and blue-ray?? if dev. not going apply action on this kind of technology like someone above said sony should have only used dvd9 software in ps3 if dev. not going to take avantage of ps3 hardware. thats like saying got a maserati and its fast,sleek do 190 mph but rather use my ford pinto slow,inconvenient

[Hellsvacancy]

The 360's ALWAYS been crippled, dvd is just another reason y its crippled

[blitz0623]

The 360 IS NOT crippled.

If anything, it's the 360 games that are crippled because of its use of DVDs

[champ21]

its more crippled due to it using a 4yr old gpu.

[ChrisW]

The Xbox360 is so DEAD!!! Oh wait... hmmmmm........

[Michael-Jackson]

Some bot revealed a BIG spoiler for HEAVY RAIN, below as a username...might be real, so avoid comment 11.

[Hellsvacancy]

Good man

Bubble +1

[madmonkey0]

ty jacko + bubbles

[RedDragan]

Who says Sony will let Microsoft use the Blu-Ray disc anyway?

Nobody is going to accept a newer disc format now because all the Movie Studio's have spent the money converting their factories already. They will not support a new type of HD-DVD and we know Toshiba will not be putting HD-DVD back into production as the Xbox is not enough to justify al lthe costs of producing them.

On the otherhand, it would be funny to see Sony charge Microsoft for every game on a new system! Sony should charge the way over the odds to use the disc, and they can do it because they are a majority partner in the BD Association.

[adamant715]

@red dragen

Just so you know, Blu Ray discs were never invented by Sony.

[MerkinMax]

Seriously dude who spoils a game like that. You seriously just ruined my experience with that game. I'm really pissed right now. People please listen to MJ, don't read below!!!

[RedDragan]

@adament

You will find that Sony actually did invent the BD Disc and are a majority partner in the BD association.

It was Sony, Phillips and believe it or not, Toshiba, who together started the BD project.

[adamant715]

@Red Dragen

Yeah, but it wasn't only by Sony.

[Bumpmapping]

It's already crippled by it's inferior hardware lmao

Jump out and play b3yond.

[kaveti6616]

At the beginning of this gen, DVD9 was okay, but we've reached a tipping point. The ambitions of the developers have grown. Sony made a smart choice in incorporating Blu-Ray. I have no idea as to what MS will use in the next generation. Surely, they don't want to pay Sony royalty fees for using Blu-Ray in the Xbox 3, but any alternative high-storage capacity disc readers will be too expensive. HVD is still not ready and costs a lot. Microsoft has some very awkward decisions to make.

[Nitrowolf2]

well the could go with HD DVD (nless thats wat HDV is?) but then again i could totally see sony going with a much bigger storage next gen (Mybe an upgraded BD or something, i don't see games going Digital because they are way to big)

[taldous]

Just so ya know, the Bu-ray Disc Association already has to pay MS royalties for using VC-1 codec in blurays. For every PS3 game sold MS gets some of that royalty money for using VC-1. If MS decides to use Blu-ray next gen, Sony has very little to say about it.Sony DOES NOT own Blu-ray.

[PirateThom]

Except VC-1 has nothing to do with games due to it being a video format.

[beardpapa]

shoulda done some research before talking about vc-1 and games.

[Oner]

And that's the probelm with peole talking $#@! about things have have ABSOLUTELY no idea what the F they are talking about! All they are doing is spreading misinformation which is utterly rampant here @ N4G...

[STICKzophrenic]

So what if MS uses Blu-Ray next gen?

Sony Vaios come with MicroSoft Windows installed on them.

The two companies can be business partners while competing with each other.

[DJ]

Is actually Windows Media 9 video. It was used on the HD-DVD format; that's about it. Blu-ray uses MPEG-2 (which is what older movie masters were stored in) and the newer H.264 codec from Apple.

[unchartedgoty]

the hddvd, and lack of innovating games (mass effect excluded.)IN MY OPINION. but its a solid system, you shouldent hate it, hell im playing mass effect 2, its a great game, and im sure alan wake might be solid. preferance is the key to a happy gamer. xbox is mass effect 2 halo3 gears1 and l4d, ps3 is mgs4, uncharted 1,2, gran turismo 5, lbp, gow, motorstorm killzone 2, and whats the deal with the non hd final fantasy for xbox360? interesting...

[SnukaTheMan]

Xbox owners will be receiving the same exact game and story as ps3 owners....ps3 owners are not getting no extras on their blu-ray. Others want to use compressed audio as a negative for the xbox version..I play with earphones and will hear the exact music ps3 owners will...

[Immortal321]

I understand disc swapping wasn't a problem, "Back Then." In a world of touch screens, 16gb portable devices, blu-ray, and constant use of the internet, DvD9 is obsolete.

Blu-ray is becoming the standard now these days for HD. everyone knows Blu-ray is for HD, and have more storage than dvd9.

when 3rd party developers claims that they have to cut content out of the game due to storage room of dvd9, that should tell you that, "yes the dvd9 needs to go."

[Bumpmapping]

GreenRingOfNoLife has alot of duplicate accounts 24 agrees haha

[LordMarius]

lol yeah I noticed that
and 6 bubbles, ha

[Anorexorcist]

The gamer zone is a cess pool tonight.

So many disagrees to so many sensible comments.

"Not ALL PS3 games require installs. Only a few do" - 30 F'n disagrees to a factual statement.

"The PS3 version of FFXIII has no install, while the already stressed Xbox 360 version even on 3 discs requires an install" - Nothing but the truth, yet 25+ disagrees are attached to the statement.

God the PS3 detractors here on N4G are special breeds of f*cking idiots who must REALLY filter everything they see, hear, and read in order to live their delusional existance thinking the PS3 and blu-ray are not speeding ahead of the Xbox 360 and DVD.

[Bilzac]

They can make 'free' downloadable content available to both silver and gold members of all the content that could not be fit into the DVD while the ps3 gets all the content on disc at first. I mean, thats the only solution I can think of where both parties are not ripped off. Don't base this article on the statement Capcom made, because Capcom seems to do cuts in content to make way for paid DLC later on. Notice a trend? SSIV, RE5 and now LP2. Yes maybe they may have not have been able to include all the content, but they obviously develop all this content during their development cycle and focus on DLC as income. Not an extremely ethical strategy but it beats that guy on Bonus Round' pay to play way

[Immortal321]

free dlc for the 360 and give the ps3 all the content at first launch.

we need a gamers union to find solutions to problems like this.

[PandaJenkins]

I just want developers to use multiple discs and I will be happy. It only takes god damn 30 seconds at most to change discs and in most cases it should only ask you to change after many hours of playing. 'sigh' I don't get why disc changing is so terrible to most people. Heck the way it works with RPG's is obvious, but with games that are SP/MP they could just put one on each disc. Most people only play those for the online anyway, so not like they would have to bother switching discs anyway. Just my thoughts, I am sure everyone will disagree and not give me a good explanation why getting up to change a disc is so horrible.

[CryWolf]

The 360 was always a crippled console and a lost cause, its not just the DVD format why the hell should anybody pay for DLC just to play the rest of the game thats ridiculous, this is why Sony's PS3 is better cause the developers can fit the hole game on 1 Blu-ray disc.

[SnukaTheMan]

But as well all know it is possible. 3-4 dvds means we still get to play the game.

[blasian]

Next question

[GiantEnemyCrab]

When I think about my Xbox gaming experience this gen I can think of plenty of great games that I played and a few stinkers but never has a game stunk because it was only on a DVD.

I can't think of one instance where I said "this game would be so much better if it were not on DVD".

I never felt like I didn't get my $60 worth on those great games that I played. And the ones I didn't were because the games were BAD not because of the format it was on(ie a Blu-ray wouldn't even help these).

So I would say my answer is NO it's not crippled. I knew it would become more of an issue as the years have gone on but the 360 is on year 5 and DVD has been just fine.

I personally have no problems with multiple disc games but some developers do and they cut instead of spanning more than one disc usually for cost reasons. I think MS could go a long way by removing any extra fees and making it as cost effective as possible for devs so 360 customers can continue to get an equal product.

[Darkeyes]

Really? How about GTA4? I thought it was a downgrade from SA and I REALLY (I cannot stress enough the emphasis I am putting in that really) HATED the fact that the city was smaller than it's predecessor.

It might have been designed that way who knows, but I personally feel it was DVD9s limitation that pulled it back (even a few articles with devs claiming it cropped up). It's an issue which I feel will plague GTA5 as well.... GTA games with more than 1 disc can cause M$ problem with their Arcade models.. AS someone said.. Insert Disc 3 while entering 3rd city... Insert 2 for 2.... I would be really pissed if GTA5 wasn't a 2-3 disc game on the 360.

[Halo3 MLG Pro]

LMAO! You thought GT4 had a small city??? HAHA! I guess your still pissed knowing that the 360 version is miles better than the ps3's sub hd version.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Nope I didn't feel that way about GTA and actually after playing both the DLC I have had more GTA than I can handle for a long time.

I never felt that I didn't get my $60 worth from Niko's story. In hind-sight I thought BOGT was the best of the 3 stories but at the time I didn't know better.

I just never got into the whole gangster San Andreas vibe so maybe I'm not the best to ask about GTAIV vs SA

Also, realize I own a PS3 so I see what Blu-ray has delivered and it's not a blaring gap as stories like this imply.

[Darkeyes]

Ok Crab, but just for a sec think from a neural stand and just imagine if GTA4 was a PS3 exclusive utilizing the Blu-Ray space, don't you think it would have had a larger city and more content?

Here take a look yourself, Rock* official stating the issue...

http://www.joystiq.com/2007...

The Quote....
"Rockstar creative VP Dan Houser was asked, "On PS3 you've got a guarantee that every machine is going to have a hard-drive and, with Blu-ray, you've got plenty of storage, whereas on Xbox 360 there's no guarantee of a hard-drive and you're working with the DVD format. Does that create limitations?" His answer? "Yep."

So even the guys at Rock* do agree they had issues with DVD9 and they are bound to get it since they use the same format for GTA:SA and GTA4 uses more space in High res texures and better graphcs... 6.8GB that is all the devs had to work with.

And people saying GTA4 wasn't gimped ala Halo with his idiotic rant must go back and play GTA:SA... Sure GTA4 for graphically a better game with the fine detail and stuff, but GTA:SA beats that in sheer scale. And this isn't an argument about which is better, but an argument of why GTA4 wasn't a leap over GTA:SA when it could have been. Again, keeping out the DLC and just talking about the DVD game.

[Ashby_JC]

I gave you a agree.

I own both systems and dont see ANY devs making these HUGE awesome games taking advantage of the Blu Ray.

Im talking exclusives. Good games but not head over heels blowing away the fun im having on the 360.

For all the ppl who say DVD is obsolete or aging etc..

I ASK WHAT DO YOU WANT MS TO DO EXACTLY?????

1. Add Blu Ray drives to new 360s??

2. Make a add on drive that can play games for current console owners of the 360??

OK we get it..DVD 9 is starting to be an issue. But I ask...outside of multi disc games. WHAT CAN MS DO???

Multiple articles like this saying the same crap over and over. But one thing each article NEVER does...is answer there articles...with a SOLUTION!!!

Make a article stating the problem ..AND some solutions to THAT problem. See thats the problem....there is no solution outside of Multi ddisc.

If there is a solution Id like to hear it..because saying Ohh the 360 needs to add Blu Ray is idiotic and would NEVER work!!

[Darkeyes]

Dude you want solutions besides adding Blu-Ray, then here are some solutions.....

Step A) Drop the Arcade model all together and replace it with the old PRO model. The more Arcade models in the market, the more the devs and M$ will avoid bringing games on multiple discs with mandatory disc installation.

Step B) Drop the price of the HDD from 100$ to a reasonable 30-40$ so that current Arcade owners can upgrade easily... You really think it costs M$ 100$ to produce a 120GB HDD?! I got a 500GB HDD off Amazon for 75$ for my PS3 (LAST YEAR!!!!).

Step C) Drop the royalty which they charge for that extra disc. M$ DOES charge royalties for every extra disc and this is why most devs stay away from using the extra disc option... Even if M$ charges 2-3$/DVD (above the DVD cost) as royalties, then too huge selling games like GTA4 will bear a loss of 10-15 million (GTA sold something like 6-7 million on the 360... So 2$ per disc means 12-14 million). That is a HUGE loss for any company. Gears 2 was developed for something like 8-10 million!!!! No company will bear such a loss no matter how big it is.... Solution they take is gimping the game on 1 DVD.

Step D) Even if they drop the royalties, M$ should themselves bear the cost of the extra DVD/s. DVDs don't come for free and even if it costs 1$, I showed you above how that percolates to millions eventually.... Bear the cost of that extra disc and see how the devs jump upon and start making games on multiple discs.

These are the steps I would suggest. Although I know it's never gonna happen as M$ has to bear huge losses at their end, but they f*cked themselves when they made the 360 with DVD... Lack of foresight is the problem with the 360.

[SUPREME RULER]

i remember a time when MS developers said blue ray was not needed. now dvd is showing it's age. while the ps3 50 gig blue ray is going strong. in the future the ps3 will be able to read 320 gig disk with a simple update.

poor 360 and it's 9 gig dvd old dying tech. the 360 will not last as long as the ps3. ps3 is future proof, it will live a long.

rest in peace 360 say hello to the dreamcast, sega cd, 32x and artari jaguar lol.

[nefertis]

I agree with u, 360 has become a embarrasment too the game industry and M$ is poison. Playb3yond

[dolphinn64]

I feared the day when i would have to get off my ass to swap a disc!!!

[Typical-Guy]

It's simple, yes. Look around you !

[Foxgod]

I am looking at my 360, it seems to be alright.

[Ashby_JC]

I just put 55 HOURS into Mass Effect 2.......55 hours!!

I had to get off my butt a grand total of.......TWO times to change disc.

Oh my I feel that my 360 is sooooo crippled that I had to change disc TWICE in 55 hours.

Had ME2 been on the PS3 I would havent had to get up so much.

Is the DVD storage a problem for DEVS...I am sure it is. but at this point in the 360s life. The options are pretty much limited to...

1/ Multi Disc...(See Mass Effect 2)
2. Making SP on one disc and MP on a second Disc
3. 2 Disc One with full game..second disc with extra maps/cars u DL onto your hardrive (See Forza3)

Adding a higher storage option this far into the consoles life is impossible (IMO)

As long as there ar eviable workarounds...saying the 360 is crippled is just FUD.

I own a Ps3 and games made exclusive on Blu-Ray have not been head over heels better then top games I have played on my 360. Will it get to that point one day yes Im sure.

But bottom line it is up to the DEVS. Look at MAG...I love the game...but if Blu Ray is so HUGE why doesnt the game have TOP NOTCH GFX??

The answer....is the DEVS decided thats as high as they wanted to go with the LOOK of the game. Having Blu Ray doesnt automatically make a game better. Its what the dev does with that space.

[My_Outer_Heaven]

DVD isnt the only reason its crippled.. its only real strengh it online.. but now PS3 is catching up in the online department.

PS3 is the best entertainment system, ive ever bought.
I watch high def movies on blu-ray and download, I can play and copy video, music and photos straight from my external 2terabyte hard drive.

My ps3 has 250gb, about 190gb is still left because of demos, game saves, music n movies.

I used to own a 360 but when I found that I had to burn music to CD in order to copy to the console I was really annoyed.. Not to mention the fact that games released on PS3 hardware 1st find it almost impossible to port to 360 yet 360 games can all be ported to PS3 if they just took the time to properly utilize the all the cores.

I hate that developers dont take time to port a game properly.

MGS4 is physically impossible on XBOX aswell as games like Killzone 2.

XBOX are lucky to have Final fantasy 13, cuz we all know that game was seriously reduced and downgraded to fit on 3 disks all compressed and no longer HD from what I have read.

PS3 still has loads more potential..

360 is already reaching its limits, hardware wise.

720 will most likely have to come out in order to beat PS3.

But what happens when PS4 rains down? I reckon blu-ray will still be a part of PS4 but they will also develop an even larger capacity format. Maybe even like hard drive sized memory sticks with games on. Just like ye old cartridges.. nahh who knows..

[Nike]

It has to be! Otherwise every one would think we're insane, right?

...Right?

[SnukaTheMan]

Watching sons of anarchy on dvd...does not look crippled to me....its the same show.....gonna watch the hurt locker on dvd....now if any movie is crippled then im expecting this one.

[unrealgamer58]

and you cannot be that stupid (maybe you are on second thought) to think so.

they're is a diffrence between a developer not having enough room to develop a game on one disc and a average joe watching a dvd movie.

[Ps_alm3k]

everybody wants to install 30 gigs on to your harddrive?
I'll be the first to say no.

[The real killer]

It's more than just the DVD drive, also the CPU is weak compared with the one from the PS3 CELL CPU, Why because the CPU from the PS3 can handle the Blu-Ray diode.

Also the architecture must be chance and the RAM like use of XDR RAM what the PS3 have it's very fast and also very efficient with the speed of 3.2 Ghz

Even the Xenos GPU has no power to output 1080p support and i don't talk about the upscale ANA chip they use.

The bottom line is, is that people do not think trow Blu-Ray drive in the 360 or the HD-DVD, it won't help.

Of they trow the Blu-Ray diode than the hardware like CPU/GPU and the RAMS must be replaced.

[Nike]

Why anyone who spells more as "mire" and throw as "trow" would be taken seriously is a mystery.

Edit 1: Fix your spelling of throw as well. God, you have the stealth editing skills of a ninja who failed Windows Movie Maker classes.

[Halo3 MLG Pro]

Sony fanboy intelligence at its finest right there.

[The real killer]

You are so freaking fanboy to click at disagree and yet call me a fanboy you little stupid kid.

I explain why Blu-Ray CANNOT in the 360.
Read better next time stupid little kid.

[The real killer]

What is your problem little kid?

Yes, i make mistakes like everybody does and you make such fuss about it. Please get on-topic not off-topic little kid.

[beans]

I just really hope MS is listening and makes the next Xbox completely future proof.

[Nike]

Hoping that Microsoft would be listening to your hopes is like an earthquake victim hoping God is listening to his: Touching, but ridiculous.

And no console is future proof. That's why we have Playstation THREEs.

[Foxgod]

There is no such thing as future proof.
Yes the 8th gen of gaming may see everything on 1 disc in the first three years.

But i guarantee you even blu ray will eventually meet its limits, and thats when games start coming out on multiple blu rays.

Thats why multiple disc are not, and will never be a problem, because multiple disc will be a recurring thing until the very day we stop using disc's all together.

[The real killer]

Microsoft cannot put the Blu-Ray drive in the 360 not for us as 260 owners but the whole hardware like CPU/GPU and the RAM must also replaced to support the Blu-Ray.

Blu-Ray eat very much processor power and the Xenos CPU is not that powerful and that is the main problem for the 360.

The GPU is not big problem, but if the 360 wants Blu-Ray than the GPU must also support 1080p and not only 1080i.

The Ram is another issue, to help the process from the CPU and GPU the speed of the RAM is very important like the use of XDR RAM.

So, Microsoft know that.

[Foxgod]

@up,

360 supports 1080P, The cpu can easily handle blu ray, as the dvd rom in the 360 got more data flow then the blu ray rom in the ps3.
(thats why ps3 games are uncompressed, because the drive is slower).

Also the ram in the 360 is faster, cause once again its been proven that the 360 got more dataflow trough its memory then the ps3, the ps3 only got a faster processor, thats it.
So if the ps3 can handle a blu ray drive, then so can the 360.

The reason the 360 wont have blu ray, is because they will have to release all the games on both dvd and blu ray, and that doubles the manufacturer expenses.

Its all business perspective, and got nothing to do with technical limitations.
Its about the money.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Did you accidentally swallow a Sony marketing brochure?

"future proof" is Sony mumbo jumbo for selling the PS3. The Blu-ray disc in the PS3 is already out-dated by larger capacity discs that require a new diode to read them.

[beans]

You make a good point! It's going to be interesting to see how this gen plays out.

"Did you accidentally swallow a Sony marketing brochure?"
NO I didn't lol.

[PirateThom]

Foxgod, if you're going to talk about memory, at least know the specs of each console

360 Ram: 512MB of GDDR3 RAM clocked at 700MHz
PS3: 256 MB of XDR DRAM main memory (clocked at 3.2ghz) and 256 MB of GDDR3 video memory (clocked at 700mhz)

RSX has the ability to both work in tandem with Cell and has access to all available memory, while Cell can only use the 256MB of the much, much, much faster XDR DRAM.

I mean, come on, this is going back to 2008 PS3 fallacies? Will we start using "Duurr, the 360 has a wired controller" again?

[Oner]

In addition PirateThom the PS3 has 4 times the internal bandwidth on top of the already double memory bandwidth coupled with the overall speed of the ram in the 360...but yet Foxgod as usual right on cue is spreading the misinformation of the PS3 being "gimped" or "slower" than the 360. Seriously Foxgod your "information" is blatantly FALSE...when was the last time you did any research kid? @ E3 from 2005 or so? Give it up already, the proof is out there and has been confirmed time and time again http://talkplaystation.com/...

[RedDragan]

Foxgod,

Please stop talking. Your inability to speak the truth is embaressing to our species.

360 RAM quicker than PS3 RAM?! Lol.... fanboysim at it's most extreme!

[Godmars290]

Having it as the default console is certainly having a crippling effect on the industry.

[maniacf40]

come bots, start crying that its more powerfull then the PS2 LMFAO!!! I havent seen the 360 power yet and its been what?? 4 years now?? going on 5.

[Halo3 MLG Pro]

And here comes the juvenile websites. I just played the greatest RPG ever in Mass Effect 2 on just 2 discs. No big deal. Only people that seem to have the problem are the ones that don't even own a 360. LOL!

[GiantEnemyCrab]

Amen! When I'm playing AAA excellent games like ME2 I just have to laugh at stories like this or anyone down playing the 360 because it's an awesome system outside of its reliability.

[Shendow]

I don't own a crap 60 an ME2 look alot better on my PC, sorry. didn't mean to make the 260 look outdated.

Yeah bring ME2 into the topic, just another crappy 360 title that looks better on a PC.

[Shendow]

Besides the people above me, people that disagree an not say a word, those people are losers with not life if they can't say why they disagree.

Get a life you losers.

[Ashby_JC]

Thats how it always is. The ppl who usually are doing the complaining...dont own the 360. So articles such as this that dont offer a solution and just harp on the problem are suspect.

Make a article talking the problem and some SOLUTIONS then Ill take it seriously. Otherwise I take this as propaganda ...trying to make it look as if the 360 is goin down and the PS3 with its magic Blu Ray is the better option for gaming.

Mass Effect 2...55 hours 2 disc swaps.....

Mass Effect 2...55 hours 2 disc swaps.....
Mass Effect 2...55 hours 2 disc swaps.....
Mass Effect 2...55 hours 2 disc swaps.....

Mass Effect 2...55 hours 2 disc swaps.....!!!!!!!!!

Awesome game....yeah it was sooo crippled with 2 discs swap. As long as the 360 is in existence. There will be multi disc games. Its not my problem how the devs make it work..as long as they make it work and release goog-great games. Myself and millions of others could CARE less about DVD.

Bottom line is FUN!!! Are you having fun with your games. This is a gaming news site. And there is never talk about how much fun you had with a game.

All my friends have Me2 and we all have talked about our experiences with the ggame for the last 3 weeks. Not ONCE...no one time did ANYONE say man..i wish I didnt have to swap disc.

So..it seems to be..WHO is exactly complaining about DVD???

Oh and as far as ME2 lookin better on a PC. Thats a fact. My GF has it on PC. I dont have a gaming PC...end of discussion.

[Foxgod]

Stop complaining about multiple disc's.

The Next gen of gaming may see everything on 1 disc in the first three years on the ps4 and the xbox next.

But i guarantee you even blu ray will eventually meet its limits, and thats when games start coming out on multiple blu rays.
Theres only so many layers a disc can have, and eventually they wont be able to add more.

Thats why multiple disc are not, and will never be a problem, because multiple disc will be a recurring thing until the very day we stop using disc's all together.

When Displayport and UHD become a standard, There will easily be games that have over 300 GB of CGI alone, and then you still need to add all the game data.

[Guitardr85]

lol, or we can wait until Google perfects their experimental fiber optic 1GB/sec internet, lol!!!

[Guitardr85]

Disagrees really?>!?! Maybe people just don't know about this. The city near where I live is actually trying to become an experimental hub for this new Google fiber optic internet...

What?!@? People never want the internet to speed up?!?!

[bujasem_89]

is the sky blue or is gabe newell FAT or is MJ Black or did Leo D get mentally botched at the end of shutter island ??? i can go on but i think i made my point xD

[The real killer]

"360 supports 1080P, The cpu can easily handle blu ray, as the dvd rom in the 360 got more data flow then the blu ray rom in the ps3.
(thats why ps3 games are uncompressed, because the drive is slower).

Also the ram in the 360 is faster, cause once again its been proven that the 360 got more dataflow trough its memory then the ps3, the ps3 only got a faster processor, thats it.
So if the ps3 can handly a blu ray drive, then so can the 360.

The reason the 360 wont have blu ray, is because they will have to release all the games on both dvd and blu ray, and that doubles the manufacturer expenses"

The 360 support 1080p by (upscaleing) it but not the full potential of 1080p

Further more the low speed, dude Blu-Ray read allot bigger data than DVD look at Killzone 2 or Uncharted 2 no loading time .

Blu-Ray is difference than DVD and the same like programm it for Blu-Ray.

(thats why ps3 games are uncompressed, because the drive is slower)

Compressed technique cost quality of the game, Blu-Ray offer that space for quality textures.

Further more, the PS3 has no intern chip that unpack from compressed data like the 360 have, this has nothing to do with Blu-Ray diode.

[bjornbear]

sim

[Nathan Drake2]

giantenemycrab you're one stupid mother*ucker just like foxgod.you should be friends.

[skeletonss]

Their system is getting beat by a gimped system haha hahaha

[blasian]

well atleast u admit the xbox is gimped ill give u that much

[Bumpmapping]

Long time no see bot!Whats the matter no games on 3sh!tty to play?! or is back at M$ headquarters getting repaired for it's 10th time?!

[Jerk120]

That's funny, Bump.

And what's going on with you? No ga-.. I mean movies to play?

[nefertis]

LMAO no more skeletonss and your xbutts bubbies yall time is all most up.Its time for sony to take out the trash 360 is one outdated peace of sh!^. Playb3yond

[avengers1978]

Beat sure by alittle bit, but all the news lately is bad for the 360, meanwhile the PS3 is really just catching it's stride, and is coming out with must have game after must have game, and has been doing so for more than a year. 2008 holiday season brought some great titles to the PS3 including LBP, and Resistance 2, 2009 started off with KZ2,and went the whole year with game after game, and 2010 is starting the same way, MAG, Heavy Rain, and God of War 3 all out before April. The 360 has developers pissed, gamers disappointed, and absolutely no way to be better with firmware updates. They need to make a new system and use blu-ray technology and then they can really have HD gaming.(standard dvd using standard dvd9 tech is not HD)

[Guitardr85]

Plus I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but MS makes devs pay extra royalties for anything over the first disk...This is one reason that the DVD is crippling the 360...that and it's an outdated medium. Sure it's good for everyday use, but for a leading edge game platform...sorry!!!

[frankymv]

GUARANTEED

[mp1289]

Its too bad the 360 doesn't use laptop Harddrives, then it wouldn't be a problem. And for the record many of the ps3 games require installations to improve loading times, thats its the only set back so far on the early life of blu ray discs. Im fine with my affordable 500gb harddrive though.

To Non-Ps3 Owners:
There is a reason why ps3 owners don't complain about installations (other than some that complain about the time it takes to install). Its probably why the ps3 gets mandatory patches for games every now and then, Everyone has enough space.

[jden28]

There were actually two things talked about in the article.One Was the whole disc space thing DVD vs. blu-ray, the other thing mentioned was hardrives and installs. I am learning to program code and from what I'm learning it isn't he disc space that most developers would want but the mandatory hard drives. If the x360's all had hardrives and thats what a programmer would prefer, they're faster than streaming off disc's and re-writable and you can literally install the number of disc's you want to create the files size and structure you need to run any sandbox, fmv heavy, or hugely scripted game you want. So as you all argue about the DVD vs. blu-ray thing realize that isn't correctable in this generation but MS if you paid attention has been changing its policies for developers and there game requirements and developers can now as of this year require a hardrive for a game. That doesn't mean any or all of them will do it. There is still the problem with multi disc fee's which I hope MS will either reduce or defer this cost for most new games. FFXIII could've been a perfect replica on the x360 as it was on the ps3 but it would've required 2 more discs and the cost for that was just too much for square.

P.S. sandbox games are the worst kind to try and street from multiple disc's because the whole world should always be accessible to the player.

[jalen247]

Of course it is since day 1

[PimpHandHappy]

its more crippled by lack of 1st and 2nd party devs

:-)

[jalen247]

That too.

That's probably my main reason for not owning one yet...the lack of real top of the line exclusives.

That and RROD of course.

[Xi]

And in those workarounds, new compression, pipelines, and resource management will provide new tools later on for game development. Just like optimization for consoles help performance gains for PC games, i believe dvd will force developers to find and create innovative new tools for data management.

[jalen247]

Devs shouldn't have to waste time and resource to do that. This was a big mistake by Microsoft and since they launched first, both PS3 and 360 owners have to suffer for Microsoft's mistake.

[RagTagBnd445]

I would more say the 360 is crippled by the lack of a hard drive, so the game developers could force an install.

[Mr Remz]

Microsoft should look into euthanizing the xbox 360 now so it doesn't suffer anymore!!

[Optical_Matrix]

Well, it's not that much of an issue for gamers themselves, but for game development...fact is people, it's holding the industry back. Deny it all you want but it's true. Look at LP2 the other day, because 360 is the lowest common denominator, and to avoid paying royalty fee's, Capcom CUT CONTENT from the game and may charge for it as DLC....why do PC and PS3 gamer deserve that just because MS couldn't take their fingers out of their ass and use a more up to date storage medium.
Even Final Fantasy XIII, the game that PS3 owners wanted for years, had content cut to accommodate the 360's piss poor storage medium. How can anyone sit back and call that fair?
I sound butt hurt, I'm not. I'm just stunned at the blind ignorance of some of the people of this site. That one aspect is not only holding back 360, but multiplatform game development as a whole.

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

can swap disc...use your tape recorders...and use telegrams all u want

[xoxideu]

last gen no games is last gen no games

gimp in.

[hazelamy]

the 360 isn't crippled by the size of dvds, but that limitation is becoming a hinderance.
mass effect 2 needed 2 disc, but it wasn't a big problem there because you only had to swap twice on the way to finishing the game, games like forza though show how it's limiting, with the tracks spread over more than one disc there's no end to the amount of times you might have to swap, and a sandbox game like gta will always come up against this size limitaion as swapping in that kind of game would be a disaster.
but like i said, it's not crippling, games can be made to fit a single disc, but who knows what has to be sacrificed to cram it all on the disc.
and GROL if some devs are too lazy to compress their games, does that make valve too lazy to make ps3 games? :)

[Karum]

I think it's going way too far to say it's being crippled by DVD. The storage capacity will eventually start to become a bigger problem but at this moment in time it's a problem only for a small number of games.

The size of games are starting to increase and eventually they will require more space than what is offered by DVD but we're not yet at a point where it would cripple the 360. The 360 is doing just fine.

[Nevets92]

I admit that i do not have a PS3 but i do have a Wii and Xbox 360 (don't have the money for a PS3) but i also admit as a 360 user that this could become a problem for the console in the future.

But thats also not to say that the PS3 and Wii do not have problems that could effect the future of the console (some of which may not be discovered until later). Don't get me wrong i think this is the best gaming generation yet, i just feel that there are soooooooo many fanboys out there that would not even try another console, which is fine by me. But they should give each console credit as they have some amazing features on all of them.

This feature is lacking on the 360 as it is starting to feel the strain of the DVD but we have to see what happens in the future. There ar other features which stand out and some that dont *Cough RROD* but that dosnt mean that every other console is perfect.

[strickers]

You can't use the term crippled>It is producing some very good,large and good looking games BUT it is starting to show it's inferiority to the PS3.It's becoming quite clear that the PS3 is more powerful and part of this is due to disc size.The 360 will continue to produce great game but the thing that will start/is starting to happen is that PS3 will get extra content.This hasn't happened due to 360 leading the market but the PS3 has sold faster and is closing the gap with some multi platforms even outselling 360 versions.You can clearly see the benefits in texture work on exclusives too.

[Marty8370]

Why do you think Crapbox has:

Games on Multi discs
Audio compressed
Graphics gimped

all due to DVD9(6.8Gb useable space),lack of storage.

Jump Out, Play B3yond

[Denethor_II]

"Also: Does anyone know WHY MS charges royalty fees? I'm assuming that others are assuming that MS is an evil greedy corporation, but is that the legit reason or an assumption? Just wondering.."

My theory is this: M$ simply put a "royalty" charge on every third disc to discourage multiple discs for the xbox version of a multi plat, thus keeping it to one disc so BD doesn't seem superior, plus we stopped swapping discs in the ps1 era. The future is here, its called Playstation 3, AKA the Black Beast.

PS: It's time multi plats were optimised for the PS3, then shredded, dulled, compressed and w*nked on for the 360 version as thats what their getting anyway. Why should Playstation suffer?

[The Simple Truth]

not in two years, now!

The PS3 is future proof. Wi-fi, blu-ray, advanced processing and graphical ability.

But the 360 is a gimped low cost tart in a miniskirt. But when you lift that skirt and get down to business, you are hit with disapppointment and remorse.

[RedSoakedSponge]

oh im sorry. I didnt realise we travelled back in time to 2005.

[jlemdon]

some of you guys are delusional to think that MS didn't need HD-DVD. I bought it to support my system of choice at the time, you guys can't seriously say your diehard MS fanboys if you didn't buy the HD-DVD!!!

[divideby0]

enough of this..from the day the PS3 was released, my 360 was clearly gimped from the start...20G disk...to small for digital downloads..no BlueRay..(many as I thought HDDVD was gonna be a dismal failure), where MS really F up was not discounting the prices of their harddrives within reason to make someone like me upgrade to a larger HD..just another MS greedy F ups.
the multiple disk thang many are saying is just a inconvenience...wrong..its first off a mood changer when playing a game to stop and change disks..I just finished ME2 and without an install the game was clearly chucking especially towards the end..and the elevator rides..instead of one long one..you had 3 short ones....
ME2 is a great game, but I think would have been better on one disk with streaming..since I have a 20G disk, I am not sure if I can or would install the game for better performance..
you are blind to think DVD hasnt crippled the 360, especially after Rockstar, Capcom say it is...
and look at FF...just another example...

[chewmystink]

Like someone else said VC1 has nothing to do with games but is a codec used for HD content.
Yes there was some Bluray that used this along with mpeg2 at the start but I can tell you most are H264 now so MS aren't getting squat, you can't be this ignorant surely.

[Colonel-Killzone]

Well i wouldn't say it was a huge problem but now it starting to seem that way because now developers are cutting things out of games now. And because of this we will see DLC which should be in the game which we have to buy now but end of the day us the consumers will suffer. All i can say is Microsoft plays a huge role into holding back the true potential of games. Just remember if more developers were to start on the Ps3 then port it to the 360 would be a seriously problem for microsoft.

[RELAX]

so long ther is good games comming . i dont care

[ShiNe-Box-]

I'd say the Xbox 360 is being more crippled by things other than DVD, but yea... I could see why someone would list the DVD format.

[Smootherkuzz]

Xbox 360 crippled by not being Blu ray, after all the success the Xbox 360 has had I would say no, Will blu ray be top dog long I say no, there is talk of a Blu ray replacement coming up sooner than you think, Electronics change faster then some people can change underware, we are used to that, heck look at how fast TV sets has changed,almost paper thin, internet connections, HDMI 1.1,1.2,1.3 and so on, my 52" LCD purchased in 2007 still serves me right with out all the current new features. For now great games will continue to come out for the Xbox 360 and when the time comes for Microsoft to unleash the next gaming monster they will rock the gaming world again.

[gollumlotrs]

for fun lets imagine a game that involves time traveling, say back to the future style, ok now we have the idea setup for such a game, imagine its multiplat and that the game is in no way cut in size, it equal in every way sound video and gameplay, one version on dvd for the 360 and the other version for ps3, but that there is a difference, one version is using 1 disc and the other is using 4 or 5 discs, ok well some may say this is still ok and fine and dont mind changing discs, well lets now say that the developers made this back to the future stype game in such a way that involved going back and forth through the same levels, altering time lets say, as you revisited you past avatars self and could alter said game levels by doing changes to the level as you past self goes though it, well now lets say over the 4 or 5 discs there are 5 levels on each totalling 20/25 levels in all, but this is the thing say the game requires you to hop back and forth from level 1 to 20, 20 to 2 to 7 and so on every 30mins or hour of gameplay, but the bluray version of said game just has you travel through the levels with no such disc changing back and forth, now what it the game itself was a total run through of 10 to 15 hours, you could be looking at something like 30 time to change a disc for only playing a game once,

and the point of this is not the actual game itself because it does not exist per say, but that the very reason something of such an example doesnt exist is purely because on the 360 such a game would be hell to play, but on the ps3 would be a simple pop the disc in and play the game out to the end, and have a laugh along the way seeing you past self messing up and stuff, so yes the 360 and dvd is holding back not only blu ray but the ps3 and developers ideas, as they all have to stay within what the others limits are, in order to maximize money coming in.

so blu ray wins and dvd is old tech, and the quicker its gone the better, I think its over come 2011/12 for dvd once xbox pulls its dxxk out of its own ass.

[Morgue]

Geezus!!! Is this the Fudzilla article from yesterday but just changed around and then you all copy & paste your comments from that on to here? Because thats what it looks like to me.

[ramiuk1]

*dvd spins faster than bluray,dvd can be read faster
*sony games arnt compressed very well because the bluray drive is so slow it cant read and uncompress the files fast enough,main reason for mand installs.
*most ps3 games are only a few gigs anyways,just like xbox games
*even with a game like metal gear solid with the compression quality MS use it would be possible to fit the 45g sony game on 2-3 dvd9's(as said due to how they compress)
*the hole dvd9 is not big enough is pure bull because every xbox 360 game has at least a 1gig dummy file,at least that is,some once ripped to the console are only 3.5gig
*everyone get a life and stop being pulled in to all the bichingthat goes on with the internet,its the media thats created console wars and they pathetic.
both systesm are awesome,i won both and each has there merits,i can thing of loads of pros/cons for both systems

lets just game and be happy

[JayD-1K]

i disagree on one part. the reason why some games are the "only" slightly bigger than 360 games is because they were probably the multi platform games. if a dev is given the ability to use more space for his/hers games, i think they would...and they have!

[MadMan00]

Do fan boys ever get tried of the whole 360 thing? I don't think PS3 even deserves to try and battle the 360 now...Just because it's finally cheaper after so many years doesn't mean they need to battle the 360 now...It's just stupid.

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

Is crippled by the technical issue, they need to fix the quality of Hardware, Jasper didn't work like people said. More than 4 years, and is just the worst technical failure in the history of consoles.

[Wile]

PC gaming says "Hi!"

FUD

[Dark_king]

ok first BD read the entire disc at the same speed even on the 2(or 6) layer same speed.while DVD is only faster reading the outer part of the first layer a gig or two wroth of data.So reading say 6 gigs of data the ps3 bd drive will finish first every time.And most PS3 games are about 20 gigs in size on average with LBP the current largest game.And you can compress data all you want but there will always be data loss to think there is not is showing your lack of knowledge.As for your comment it is entirely false except this "everyone get a life and stop being pulled in to all the bichingthat goes on with the internet,its the media thats created console wars and they pathetic. both systesm are awesome,i won both and each has there merits,i can thing of loads of pros/cons for both systems" so next time research before you attempt to educate.

[Ashby_JC]

"Suite101 looks at how Microsoft's decision to stick with the use of DVDs is affecting the Xbox 360. "

Ok I am really really tired of seeing these articles.

Decision to stick with DVD? Ummm what choice do they have...swap out all the drives that in households right now to blu-ray?

Redesign the new 360s with Blu Ray drives? How would that work huh?

When they designed the 360 years and years ago. There wasnt another opTION for higher storage capacity. There was no HD-DVDs there was no Blu-Ray as of yet.

Why do you think the PS3 launched oover a year after the 360? If SONY would have went with DVD. Things would have been different. They would have launched much earlier and would most likely NOT be in last.

So we 360 owners who are loving multi disc games like the recently released Mass Effect 2 and Forza 3 a few months ago. Are just fine.

Would I like a one disc option. Sure....but I have ZERO choice in the matter. AS long as the 360 is in existence...there will be multi idisc games now and in the near future.

WHO keeps making these articles? Is it someone who really wants the 360 to have a higher capacity drive or are you just trying make propaganda articles to make it seem the PS3 has better games because of Blu Ray??

I have a PS3 and outside of the top games. THe Blu Ray is not making my games I play FUNNER. See when it comes down to it...the bottom line is ..AM I HAVING FUN?

[lightningsax]

Ugh. We're talking tech. If you're fine with swapping discs, that's cool. Give it a few more years and more developers will have more problems with the old-school DVD format. We're not talking about you, as you are experiencing the end of a project. We're talking about the project itself.

If you're talking about fun, it's fine to have fun with games that are out right now, smaller-sized than many upcoming projects, but it's time for the big devs to move on.

You're right in a way. We haven't really seen the DVD backlash yet, and it's just on the brink of getting in the way of games. Since these consoles are being stretched for all they're worth unlike previous generations, this backlash will start happening as storage capacity demand gets higher for devs. It's beginning now with FFXIII, and in a way Forza 3 was the predecessor in the argument, but give it a few years. DVD will be gone.

So, you're managing a game company. You want to make the next best thing out there. What do you tell your guys? Make the game smaller? Or do you take some luxury fee from Microsoft on having the game on 4 or 5 DVD's? Or do you isolate your Arcade and non-internet (yes, they're out there en masse) consumers and make a third of the game a download?

On the bright side, there will probably be new consoles very soon. That or more downloading to your 360's hard drive (okay, maybe the semi-bright side).

[dredgewalker]

I don't think its an issue to 360 users cause they are used to it. Lets just leave this be. There is no more point in discussing this because there is nothing anyone can do about it and i don't think 360 users are really bothered by it.

[lightningsax]

The best part of the article is the last paragraph, where it makes sense. Staying with DVD for X360 would have been fine if consoles were in their usual cycle, but because everything has been drawn out, DVD is showing its age badly.

It was a fine business decision at the time, but the DVD is definitely a more obsolete piece of technology now. Now that these consoles need to live longer, the more expensive Blu-Ray path Sony took looks a bit better.

[RedDragan]

Does anyone else find it funny that the annoying wart Greenburg and co. will have to take a trip to Sony HQ and hand over money when the next Xbox comes out!?

Microsoft, get your cheque book out, you'll have to pay Sony for the right to sell games next gen!!

[ZJ88]

I always am checking whats new in the gaming world, it's hilarious that people like greenring and bungie are on these types of sites, if you are that insecure about your decision to fully support microsoft thats fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion or view but to spam every site is kind of extreme.YOUR PROPAGANDA ISN'T HELPING YOUR CONSOLE. I recently just switched to ps3 from xbox 360 not because i wanted switch to the "darkside" but because i wanted something fresh and different. I don't want to play a new gears, halo and fable every year although i did enjoy them. MS rushed the 360 and thats apparent at this stage in the game with lack of disk space and early hardware flaws. I want to get another 360 mainly for partychat with the dudes but seeing as i would be paying for older tech (dvd) i might as well hope psn premium will cover that missing piece. Does anyone agree or nay?

[adamant715]

They should've just launched the Xbox 360 with HD-DVD as the default format imo they would'nt have nearly as much problems as they do now.

[The_Truth_2009]

Blu-ray BTW! MS is very idiot to made Xbox 360 with old fashioned tech! what a shame, MS!

PS3 and Sony BTW!

[DJ]

PS3 games actually wouldn't look that much better. The fact that PS3 devs have 6 times the storage space to work with means a lot more detail in environments and characters, more animation, more sound, and just more variety.

Can you imagine a game like Uncharted 2 being squeezed down to 7 GB like a 360 title? The campaign would be half the size, multiplayer would be a joke, and the graphics would suck.

And before the fanatics jump in, PS3 and 360 devs use the same compression techniques. MP3 and JPEG aren't exactly platform exclusive =P.

[strickers]

I agree but I would add that the Cell chip helps too.It's not that it's much more powerful than Xenos,it's that is has onboard memory for each SPU so can run more stuff at the same time without bottle necking.The Xenos can multi thread but all using the same memory.

[artsaber]

The same 2.5" SATA harddrives that are used in the PS3 and laptops are shrouded in that plastic case. Microsoft went OUT OF THEIR WAY to modify regular laptop drives and make it their standard, disallowing you to use your own store bought SATA drives.

Some used a mod for replacing Microsoft's drive with a store bought larger one, but those folks get banned from XBL too. The 360 harddrive is nothing but a plastic case around a regular 20GB 2.5" laptop SATA hdd connected via a proprietary SATA to SCSI type adapter.

[bobrea]

This is dumb. I'm so excited to see the flood of articles about this that somehow make it to the front page. (/sarcasm)

[Figboy]

the games of this generation seem adequate for DVD9 is because DEVELOPERS ARE MAKING THEM THAT WAY??

believe me, having worked in the gaming industry for publishers and developers themselves, i can tell you that the more tools/options developers have at their disposal, the better.

why does GTAIV fit on a DVD? because it HAD TO. not because it didn't need to be on anything larger.

why do games like Assassin's Creed 2, Fallout 3, Oblivion, fit on a DVD? again, because they HAD TO.

early on the Playstation 2 era, games were still released on CD. Ico, Okage, etc, they were both released on a CD ROM. why? because early on in that generation, a CD ROM was enough for some games. other early PS2 games, like Metal Gear Solid 2 and GTAIII were released on DVDs because they required more space. please keep in mind that this was only single layer DVDs. that is, 4gigs of space.

then, same generation, mind you; God of War 2 released on a Dual Layer, 9gig DVD. the second disc of God of War 2 was a special features disc that had nothing to do with the game play of God of War 2.

now tell me, if a last generation game like God of War 2 took up a full 9gig Dual Layer DVD, WHY do you people think that a Dual Layer 6.8gig (the 360 used Dual Layer DVDs, but 1.8gigs are reserved for some specific 360 formatting) would be enough to contain ACTUAL HD GAMES?

the only reason that games have been fitting on DVD "9"s this generation is because developers have been FORCING THEM to fit by cutting as many corners as possible.

believe me, some developers aren't happy with having to trim down their vision to fit on the 360's DVDs, in the same way that last gen, some developers weren't happy with having to code to the lowest common denominator, the PS2 when doing multi-plats. and guess what? for the Xbox versions of multi-plats last gen, they DIDN'T code down the PS2 level. games like Prince of Persia, Beyond Good and Evil, and more looked more than just marginally better on the Xbox than the PS2 counterparts. sure, the games were still fun (ie, RE4 on the PS2 was just as fun as RE4 on the Gamecube, it just didn't look as good; for the record, RE4 on the PS2 still looked graphically impressive; i had BOTH versions).

so tell me, WHY is that developers don't want to code to the PS3's level, then code down to the 360's levels for multi-plats? they didn't hesitate to do it for the PS2 last gen. why is it suddenly all about "console parity?"

as a result, this DVD issue isn't affecting just the Xbox 360. it's affecting the Playstation 3 multi-plats as well.

it's not about disc swapping, a minor issue. it's about the fact that developers are actively cutting out content and corners that were initially intended to be in the game but couldn't fit.

even iD Software, a primarily PC/Xbox centric developer, had to completely re-imagine their initial plan for RAGE, to accommodate the Xbox 360's limitations.

sure, John Carmack does damage control, and pretends that his initial vision of a huge open world with several areas got cut down prior to their issues with 360 disc space, but his original comments about the game were that they had to alter the game design and flow for multiple discs.

now, the regions are separated, and by disc. the PC and PS3 versions reflect that change as well. how seamless and expansive could RAGE have been if it was on just one disc?(the PC would have installed the game to the HDD, so it didn't matter how many discs it initially shipped on).

it infuriates me that even to this day, some people are still making excuses for Microsoft's lack of foresight.

developers have been forced to accommodate DVD limitations this generation. they've done a remarkable job thus far (we've gotten some great 6.8gig games), but the entire potential of this industry has been hindered because of Microsoft's push to be out first, and insistence on using an aging disc format for storage, as well as removing the HDD as a standard feature across ALL Xbox 360s.

if it wasn't for the fact that the PS3 went with Blu Ray, games like Uncharted 2, Killzone 2, and God of War 3 would be shells of their current iterations. there's no way they'd feature that level of visual fidelity and variety. WHERE would you store all that high resolution texture data? audio? video? WHERE?

there's a reason why Playstation 3 exclusives look so far beyond the competition, and it's not just because of "teh Cell," but the WHOLE of what the PS3 offers developers to use.

they have the Cell, of course. they have the built in HDD, so if necessary, they can cache/install to the HDD, and they have the Blu Ray drive, with it's constant read spead and excellent streaming capabilities, to stream the data from the disc without solely relying on the HDD (Uncharted 1 and 2 don't install to the HDD, but they DO stream all that beautiful texture data from the disc, through the Cell, and RSX, and into our TVs, singing our retina's with it's awesomeness).

a console is more than just one individual piece of hardware.

for example, the Xbox 360's graphics processor is very powerful. so is it's CPU. UNFORTUNATELY, developers aren't able to go all out with them because of the other hardware. the lack of DVD space to store higher quality textures, audio, and video assets, and the lack of a standard HDD in every unit, so even without the disc space, developers could still cache/install that data to the HDD.

believe me, Mass Effect 2 isn't on 2 discs because it helped the game play experience. it's on two discs because it HAD TO BE. great game regardless, but it was hindered. when Bioware said, way back when ME1 was releasing, that they were having issues cramming ME1 onto a single DVD, i knew there would be some compromises made for the sequel. and i know swapping discs wasn't one of them.

working behind the scenes with games, i see a lot of the design decisions that go on at some development houses, and the reasons WHY those decisions are made.

as i said before, the reason why games this gen don't seem to need more than 6.8gigs of space is developers spent a lot of time and money to make sure that their game WORKS with 6.8gigs of space.

games like Agent and MGS4 would more than likely have been on the 360 if they allowed the developers to fully realize their visions with larger disc space and HDD options.

Xbox 360 isn't the only thing being hindered by DVD space. PS3 gamers are facing the consequences of Microsoft's short-sightedness with every multi-platform game released. it wasn't like this last generation at ALL. the Xbox allowed developers to further realize their visions, and the PS2 versions did the best they could.

now, you have developers preemptively gimping their titles for the 360 version, instead of simply working with it's strengths, and playing to the PS3's strengths, thus giving the owners of both platforms the best experience they can get on those platforms.

"console parity" is killing the growth of this generation of gaming.

maybe next gen we'll actually get more than just one console and the PC that pushes the industry forward.

[plumber15]

is it just me or dose sony think about the future vs the present or am i completely wrong

[Enigma_2099]

... in fact, I can prove it...

http://n4g.com/NewsCom-8037...

See, I said it right here...

[Advari]

The Xbox is crippled by the DVD format why would a person whose really into a game want to swap a disc thats the last thing on their mind. M$ should have used HD DVD as a format instead.

[KYU2130]

everyone is screaming multi-disk games are bad. Sure they disrupt the flow of the game.. then so be it if thats what the 360 community can live with then thats fine by me. But the one thing everyone is forgetting is that all these supposed HD games that MS are flashing everywhere are not true HD. MS gave all devs a cap on the resolution they were allowed to use when developing games. this cap actually is actually lower than 720p (i think its in 540p range). this lower resolution helps to reduce the amount of code needed to produce the game. And helps to keep it on no more than 2 disks.

That being said.... it means that there is only one true HD console on the market this gen... oh so sad

So is DVD9 outdated***YES*** since day one of this current gaming generation. sadly MS could have nipped this in the bud if they had used the HD DVD add-on they created to its full possible potential.

[Dkesh]

360 doesnt need blue ray, so far all games on the 360 look good. so far only PS3 use blue ray for gaming, pc 360 Wii all use DVD so gave dev need more attention on the 3 instead of one. i guess we still have long time to see the blue ray on all segment

[morkendo]

next xbox will be called X10 not 720 as we think (gut) feeling.