Why Did Guerilla's Killzone 2 Force Me To Kill The More Interesting Good Guys? I Hate The ISA!

PushSquare: "Somewhat souring my experience with Killzone 2 was the admittedly weak narrative running throughout the entire single-player campaign. If you've played the game, like myself, you probably harbour an underground loathing for Rico that occasionally forces you bolt upright covered in a cold sweat during deep sleeps. The only redeeming factors Killzone 2 has as a story come from the "antagonists", the Helghast, a mysterious race whom we're assumed to hate but never quite told why. It's no wonder; my research concludes that they're the bloody good guys!

A friend of mine recently put me on the trail of the Killzone 2 backstory. Not only was I blown away that Sony's biggest shooter actually had a deep history, I was actually dumbfounded as to why Guerilla opted not to use any of it. The plot is good and it's a shame Guerilla didn't put more into it. The glorious technical feats achieved in Killzone 2 could have been seriously underlined if they'd been given more context. Like the war itself; I just assumed the Helghast were rotten aliens trying to take over the world. I never once questioned the motives behind my foul-mouthed team. I guess that's for the best given that the ISA are rotten, raging hypocrites.

According to Guerilla's story, the Helghast aren't bad guys at all."

[PirateThom]

It's not as simple as bad/good guys, both sides have done terrible things, both sides could be seen as defending themselves.

It's quite annoying when people just instantly assume Helghast are the bad guys.

[Elven6]

Reminds me of World War II, people think it's clear cut but it gets really complicated.

[Bigbangbing]

I LOVE shooting and killing those red eyes bad guys :D

it's just feels so good .. with the "Hit-Response" system :D

[Ghoul]

agree

Thats why i LOVE killzones universe. The story is infact very very deep if you bother to actually read the intel and story you get from killzone.com for example.

Personally i would LOVE a spinoff like hl:oposing force where you play the same story as the oposite faction.

The Storyline pretty much let you decide witch faction you consider bad or good, since both have a brutal history.

"Reminds me of World War II, people think it's clear cut but it gets really complicated."

i think its pretty clear who where the bad guys in ww2 isnt it ?
if you want to compare it to something take iraq or vietnam.

[cayal]

Good and bad are simply perceptions of each individual.

Americans and most 1st world countries think that the terrorists are the bad guys.
Terrorist think we are the bad guys.

[Elven6]

Ghoul: I'll post what i posted below just incase this gets long and lost,

Yes of course I wasn't referring to that aspect, more so how people have automatically assumed things like all Germans were Nazi's or how Japan was so innocent in the war, and of course the one about Allied nations doing no wrong during the war.

It is clear who the bad guys are, the bad guys were a majority of the Nazi Party (Since people like Oskar Schindler were Nazi party members but they used their position for good), what I was trying to say was people automatically assume all Germans were Nazi's, Japanese were innocent, etc.

Iraq or Vietnam? No, WWII is extremely complicated if you dive deeper into it. Many Germans originally went to war thinking they were doing it for Germany because thats what they were lead to believe for years. Of course the Nazi party had other things in store for them. In Japan, people thought what they were doing was honorable because of how Japanese culture was (Bushidoism, etc). Of course Allied nations had their own pro's and cons.

Vietnam is a good example, I don't know much on Iraq (previous or current?) to really comment much on it.

Yaygames: Their is much more to war then who starts it, if you are seriously saying you judge conflicts solely on leaders your perspective on the war must be skewed.

Edit 2: No problem ;)

STK: Good explanation I guess, keep in mind during the first year or so of the war and of course during pre WWII the US was also selling supplies to Germany as well.

I don't know how true this is but I've heard stories saying the French Resistance didn't want colored liberation forces to enter Paris for the victory celebration. Apparently the French troops in Africa at the time were extremely brutal to the locals and they thought letting commonwealth troops into Paris would make them take revenge on their women, houses, goods, etc. Of course they were able to die and give their life for the liberation, just not celebrate.

Of course don't expect Call of Duty or any other WWII game to even make mention of any of this! :p

[STK026]

clear in WW2?
Well, it's clear that the Allies were the lesser of two evils, but the good guys? no way.

While the Germans, with their allies, started WWI, the way the allies acted afterwards is what led Hitler to power and the reason there ever was a WWII. The way they treated the Germans asked for retribution, Germany was to pay for the war, litterally, something it couldn't have done in decades, and to make things worse, the economic crash happenned.

Also, the British knew what was going on in Germany, yet they preferred not to act and assumed Hitler would not go into a war, despite the fact that he was biulding an army and developping new tanks in collaboration with the russians.

When the Jews tried to escape Germany, many countries including the USA and UK, only accepted a few of them, leaving many to die on German soil.

Also consider that the Russians were on "the bad side" when it all started, and became the good guys when Germany turned on them, when they entered Germany, they killed, pillage and raped, they did what the SS did to them, but worse.

The Japanese attacked the USA only because the US were preventing them from having any natural ressources, they had to strike them to be able to continue their war on China.

Also, don't forget that in WWI, at the beginning, the USA were not really allied with the French and the Brits, as they were selling weapons to both sides, only siding with the Allies when their ships got sunk by the Germans.

Finally, look at the way the Americans treated the Asian people after pearl harbor.

These are only some examples showing that neither sides were good, it's just that one wasn't as bad. There's no black and white in wars.

[yaygames]

And whats so complicated about it?

Hitler = Bad guy (starts the war)

edit: sorry didn't read the conversation below :p

[gamesR4fun]

if u dont see whats coming play the game again n maybe pay a little more attention...

@the author of the article.

[edgeofblade]

Just face it, Killzone 2 and Halo 3 are on the same level. They both have great multiplayer and barely-digestible campaigns.

[WeaseL]

The bad guys always lose cus' its the winning side that writes the history

If Hitler had won we would all be praising him by now & speaking German

[Tomdc]

you've twisted some things to paint the allies in a far worse light than reality. Granted the allies werent all good but they certainly weren't as bad as you make out.

Hitler did not come to power because of the treaty of versailles. That was one influencing factor, sure, but there is so much else to take into account within the country!

I've been studying Hitler for the past year of my life (fun...) so could talk a hell of a lot more about this but i've tried to keep it extremely simple because i cant be bothered to write an essay.

My main point is this: Compared to Hitler, the allies were bloody angels!

You wanna see a war where there was no point whatsoever and neither side was good? look at World War 1 the most pointless, senseless, waste of life in the history of mankind.

[STK026]

yes, I know it was only one of the reasons, however, had the Allied treated Germany with some respect, the German people wouldn't have been as angry. During WWI, the Germans were told they were winning, and they had all the reasons in the world to believe so, however, when the war ended, they were defeated, and they didn't really know why, as the government never really told them the real situation.

The treaty was unfair to the losers, but to the german people it was more than unfair, it was incomprehensible, as for them, it was a shock, as they always thought they were winning, so the conditions of the treaty didn't make any sense to them. How do you go from being on the verge of victory to being a defeated nation humiliated by those you were defeating, that's pretty much how they felt.

Had the treaty been more respectful of the proud German people, they would not have been as angered. Also, the treaty pretty much forced Germany into what seemed like eternal poverty. Another thing that didn't make much sense was the fact that the Allied decided to make the Society of nations (sorry, I'm a French Canadian, so it's Société des NAtions for me, don't know about the English term), without including the defeated nations, which composed a large part of the world.

Had the German people not been forced into poverty and humiliated by the Allied, Hitler would have most likely never been able to take the power, or atleast, wouldn't have been able to establish himself as quickly as the supreme leader of his country.

But this is just speculation of course.

@Elven6

Of course CoD will never go there. WeaseL is somewhat right about the victorious ones having the ability to write history the way they want it to be. Sure, history books won't lie to you, however, in the medias it can easily be seen. Movies and games will most of the time put you in the shoes of the Allied, which make sens since they won the war and stopped the Nazis, however, they usually fail to mention that not all Germans were Jew-killing nazis, they also display the Russians as being "good guys", rarely mentioning that at the beginning they were had a non agression pact with the Germans, and that at the end of the war, they refused to withdraw from the defeated nations and that Stalin killed more people after WWII than during WWII, afterall, they're good guys.

@edgeofblade

both games also have a very very deep backstory, too bad the devs can't seem to use it properly in their games.

[Elven6]

You're right, here's hoping one day developers get it right and treat the war with the respect it deserves. Taking a Band of Brothers type approach to the story telling aspect of WW2 could do wonders, BIA kinda tries to do this but they stop short.

It seems highly due to the whole Nazi aspect of World War 2 that many are deciding not to touch on the German aspect of the war, in a good sense that is. What I personally do when I talk about WW2 in depth like this is I tell people straight up I'm splitting the Germans into two categories. The first category is Germans who were members of the Nazi Party (Nazi's) and the second is German Heer's (German for soldier). Given how you could have been a Nazi but not hand a hand in the holocaust or you have had a hand I tend to avoid the complex category all together. Thats probably why people avoid that category as well in media, it's just too complex to delve into at this point, many have focused on the Heer category and done so very successfully until the 90s onward that is when people decided to merge the two categories together for some odd reason.

Just thought I'd add, The United States and to a lesser extent Britain were the only nations who after WW1 pushed the idea of rebuilding Europe instead of pointing the finger of blame.

Like I said before, if you fought in a war with "honor" (aka not killing civilians intentionally, committing atrocities, etc) regardless of side you will have my respect.

[MicroSony4Life]

Sev was ok but never felt connected to him, Rico is that annoying PE teacher we had in high school.

Killzone 2 would have blown me away if we were to play as the Helghast.

[Qui-Gon Jim]

Edgeofblade, you may be right, I haven't played Halo 3 to be able to compare them, but I think Killzone 2 COULD HAVE had a much deeper, more textured story than it did. If they had explored the back story of the Helghast, it would have made things much more interesting. Not to mention if they had bothered to make concessions to the new players who didn't know the story, it would have been easier to make sense of what was happening.

[arakouftaian]

please inform ourselt and play atemtion!!!
in youtuv=be there is many many information about the mazons serets and who rule the wolrd we have to wake up and stp this soon .

this is not a joke

people wake up a virus have start in mexio and some pleaes of USA

[Downtown boogey]

threaten to smash your skull? Torn you into pieces?
I guess so

[pixelsword]

They did; they called it Killzone and Killzone: Liberation.

[DaTruth]

Wars are not fought by "good guys", Wars are only fought by two sets of bad guys or bad guys attacking good guys. Since the Helghast are the ones with the massive energy reserves, It's quite obvious that they are the defenders.

[SeanScythe]

meh.. I had fun shooting them it's a game I don't care who was good or bad. I just know I killed a crap load of them.

[Elven6]

I take it you weren't playing for the story?

[WhittO]

^^ i didnt play for the story much as i read that it didnt really have any.
on my first play through, i agreed that the story was very shallow and not much to it (although the game is really great!), your the good guys killing the bad guys.

However, after reading through the entire Killzone story on the website (just then), the story has instantly become ALOT more interesting and deeper, making me actually have an opinion and feeling about the characters/factions (which i think is missed in Killzone2).

Having learned all the story, it makes me want to play as Helghast and fight the ISA !! Both sides are sort of responsible, but the ISA are not the "perfect.cant do any wrong good-guys" - at all!!
There is so much left to this story and they did not even touch upon it in K2.

I think they should have done a quick re-cap at the beginning of K2 and explained the past in a cutscene as it makes what you are doing more meaningful (especially since most people playing K2 have prob not played K1 etc).

If i had known all of the story before playing, it would have made it more intense when killing Vasari or seeing that fleet at the end etc.

[DaTruth]

The ISA should just blow down a couple of their own buildings, than they could reek havoc across the globe...er the Galaxy and pretend they're the good guys!

[Spike47]

killing millions of innocent people seems defenitly "bad" to me.

[Elven6]

Yes of course I wasn't referring to that aspect, more so how people have automatically assumed things like all Germans were Nazi's or how Japan was so innocent in the war, and of course the one about Allied nations doing no wrong during the war.

[raztad]

Your discussion is pretty interesting, let me add my 2 cents.

Official History has two type of actors
1)Winners == Good guys
2)Losers == Bad Guys.
Pretty simple.

Some historical facts fromm the second world:
1) Russia WAS NOT on the Nazi side in the beginning, they just wanted to be neutral.

2)Russia ALONE defeated Nazi Germany. I said again, ALONE. USA and UK, were waiting for Germany to destroy the Soviet Union and gave Hittler plenty time to do it (around 3 years). Look carefully for the dates, Germany invades Russia (1941), D-day (1944). When was pretty clear that Germany was retreating form the soviet front, and Russians were about to enter Germany, USA and UK launched the attack to Normandy.

3)Russia lost 50 million of its citizens during the war. One single battle in the soviet front, had more human losses than all the battles together in the French front. Germans treated russians (slaves in general) as non-human. It's not unexpected that Germany was going to receive a similar treatment in turn.

4)Read about the dresden bombing. It should give you some lights about unneeded cruelty.

[Elven6]

Russia was also receiving a lot of aid from the Allies which definitely helped them fight. During the Non Aggression pact weren't both Germany and Russia commencing in trade and to a certain extent military tactics (Poland).

Russia definitely had a big hand in the war but I wouldn't underplay the contributions of other nations. Funny thing is the British wanted to liberate France but many of the French didn't want a single British soldier on French territory.

[Spike47]

yeah I understand what you are trying to say, but I guess thats just the way the cookie crumbles for entertainment.

[Elven6]

Unfortunately your right, in my opinion when it comes to many wars no matter what side you fought on if you fought honorable and did not commit any sort of wrong act you have my respect. Sad how the media is just furthering stereotypes, oh well thats life I guess.

[Nelson M]

And Shoot yourself a Sh!tload of BoTs

Haaa Hah

[MGOelite]

i can see where the guys coming from, i really did hate rico for fuking up and getting 1 of your m8s killed (only 1 i liked) and for the fuked up ending

[PotNoodle]

"According to Guerilla's story, the Helghast aren't bad guys at all."

False, all they have said is that it isn't clear who the good guys are - that is up to you to decide. If you think the helghast are the good guys, then that is your story, if you think the isa are the guy guys - then once again, that is your story too.

[MicroSony4Life]

I love the Helghast and did not enjoy killing Vasari and Radec.
.
I was pissed when those a$$hole killed Vasari and I hope that in Killzone 3 we get to play as the Helghast so I can kill thoes a holes.

[swiftshot93]

You play this game for the intense action and the multiplayer.

[Bimmer3]

This whole back and forth between who is good/bad is exactly why GG should let us play as both sides in the next game, they've got a very intriguing story line. I definitely sympathize with the Helghast more than the ISA. I think the ISA are a bunch of punks, but I would love to see GG give us the whole story so that people can make the decision themselves (without having to go online and read the history off a website.) Maybe even a prequel?

[jcgamer]

just imagine if in KZ3 or Gears 3 we play a full campaign as the Helghast or Locust Horde, from their perspective...WOW...TIGHT

:)

[Timesplitter14]

I think we're supposed to feel bad in the end

[BlackPrince 42]

I feel the same way as the author.

*spoiler*

I was royally pissed when Rico killed of Visari, he was my favorite character! Long live Brian Cox! I just hope that in the next Killzone we get to play as a Helghast and kill off Rico.

[na2ru1]

Rico and his role has to be the worst kind of character I had to deal with.

[spoiler]
Visari had THE most engaging characteristic. He should have been handcuffed let alone kept alive so they can somehow twist the story around a lot more for the next. What is there to look forward to now that none of the characters from the Killzone 1 aren't left.

[Don_Frappucino]

Should perhaps be a prequel to KZ and KZ2. Or if they pick up after the events of KZ2 i want to play as the Helghast best so called "baddies" ever!

[boss_killa]

i found myself feeling more sympathy for the helghast than really wanting to kill them.

USA = ISA
Helghast/Helghan = Iraqis/Iraq

You cant deny the similarities.

[Timesplitter14]

USA = ISA, yeah

but Hellghast = a mix between Nazis and Communists, but without the genocide.

[Ripyealip]

helghast are very nice people if you learn to have a lemon party with them not shoot metal at them!

[Dark General]

Thanks for reminding me of Lemon Party.

[Figboy]

pushing more story into the Killzone games, instead focusing on the smaller story with Templar, Rico, and the rest of the squad.

it's funny, because most games are trying to STRETCH what little story they have between gameplay segments, and Killzone has TONS of story that barely make it into the game! lol.

like Resistance 2, most of the story is found in the intel documents scattered throughout the game.

i think GG really could have taken the console FPS crown if they put all of that history, backstory, and depth into Killzone 2 (and the other KZ games, for that matter).

hopefully, with all of the feedback they've gotten from Killzone 2, they'll address this in Killzone 3, and truly give us an epic story to go along with their already epic gameplay.

if Guerrilla Games has shown a consistent trait, it's that they listen to their fans and address as many complaints from the previous game in the next one.

Killzone 1 was heavily criticized. Killzone: Liberation addressed those complaints. Killzone 2 ironed out the rest, and i imagine Killzone 3 is going to be simply awesome, especially judging by the epic ending of Killzone 2.

[Brixxer600]

I totally agree with you that GG should have made more of an effort in story telling.

I was reading the background story today and was amazed at how complex it really is. The whole good/bad thing is very blurry , yes the Helghast have done some bad things but the ISA aren't exactly angels , half of them don't even know what they are fighting for or what all started it in the first place.If you don't know anything about it then it's worth checking out.

Would definitely love to be able to play as the Helghast at some point in the future , they are one of the more interesting character groups in gaming.

[FF7numbaone]

you guys think most poeple would like a story but thats false. Most the players playing Gears of war, halo and killzone dont give a rats ass about story.

Players think their real soliders, they just want to know. Whos the percieved bad guy and who should be blown up.

For istance when I picked up killzone 1 couple years back, I was thinking why are the ugly helghast poeple trying to invade vekta. Remember the intial invaders are always percieved as the bad guys.

[kws1065]

"There is nothing either good or bad. But thinking makes it so"
-W. Shakespeare-

[Slime]

Rico is the worst character in video game history!

He is a complete and utter prick with no redeemable qualities whatsoever. He makes the adoring fan from Oblivion seem cool.

[FF7numbaone]

for some reason I like coletrain better than rico.

[FF7numbaone]

they might not be bad guys but they sure are the ugly guys.

[IVYvsTAKI]

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Guerilla lets us play as the Helghast. If not in the next game, later on down the road...

[STK026]

well, they did have us play as an helghast in the first killzone, not the faction though. I guess it'd be nice to be able to play as one, one easy way to do it without having the player being in "the bad guys" would be to put us in the shoes of an helghast who opposed Visari during the first few years of the arrival on Helghan.

[Qui-Gon Jim]

I think it would be extremely more interesting to play as a Helghast soldier who is zealously loyal to Visari. To be hearing about how we deserve to take back what was stolen from us by the ISA. To hear how, despite our history, we have not only survived, but have risen up to become a superior race.

I do believe, though, that to think the Helghast are the good guys misses the point almost as much as thinking the ISA are the good guys. After all, they did come to power originally through legal and financial maneuverings, and by heavy taxation of the only trade route between Earth and the colonies. Visari also transformed them into an oppressive, militaristic regime in his quest to restore their glory.

[STK026]

i agree it would be more interesting, but doenst seem as likely to happen.

[Bazookajoe_83]

They are just so much cooler and interesting.

[Qui-Gon Jim]

I dream of a game that leaves players wondering not only "who really are the bad guys?" but also wondering if the whole concept has any meaning.

I think the next step for video games to move into the realm of art is to make us start thinking about things in different ways, and the best place for games to do that is the area of wartime morality. Killzone 2 dipped its toe into those cloudy waters. Rico is the same character that we were cheering for in those 1980's action movies starring Stallone or Schwartzenegger, but when he killed Visari he committed a WAR CRIME and, maybe, single-handedly escalated the war. Armies around the world have these people with the "shoot the bad guys" attitude (some U.S. soldiers in the Viet Nam war had the slogan "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" referring to V.C. and civilians), but most soldiers are good people doing what they believe is right.

I think Guerrilla and Sony may have wanted to avoid controversy that might have come if they had tried to make the Helghast more sympathetic (some people would have claimed the game was fostering sympathy for terrorists), but if they had explored the backstory more in this direction, it could have been the defining feature that moved the game from "a great game" to "one of THE great games."

[arakouftaian]

please inform yourselt and play attention!!!
in youtube there is many many information about the mazons secrets and who rule the wolrd, we have to wake up and stop this soon .

this is not a joke

people wake up a virus have start in mexio and some of USA states

[rmatott]

way to bring this off topic : |