Final Fantasy 16 raises more questions about current-gen 60fps gaming

Digital Foundry: Is it time to accept the limitations of PS5 and Xbox Series consoles?

[Christopher]

I thought this was as close to flawless as it could get? -- https://n4g.com/news/255641... -- What happened between then and now to question the future of 60fps gaming on PS5/XSX when there are already multiple AAA games that do it perfectly fine and don't get discussed because they're not big first-party titles (though, Ragnarok did it pretty dang well and people forget about that).

Are we seriously being apologetic for the choice in focusing on graphic fidelity over performance? Because that's what we're arguing. Not whether the consoles can do it, but whether the developers focus on one over the other. The hardware on both sides is great. It's not the hardware.

[Lightning77]

"What happened between then and now to question the future of 60fps gaming on PS5/XSX when there are already multiple AAA games that do it perfectly fine and don't get discussed because they're not big first-party titles"

Nothing, he mentions the 720p res drop in order to hit 60fps in the original link you provided. Plus all those other games in the past 3 years were ps4 and x1 games. Not current gen titles.

He said this in the article

"Square-Enix aims for 60fps combat as a priority in performance mode, lowering resolution in combat scenarios to just 720p, raising the lower bounds outside of that, resulting in lower performance."

A Plagues Tale was 30 frames (now 60 patch) Batman is still 30 fps, Redfall 30, Forspoken Res drops, SF 30, Jedi Survivor was rarely hitting 60 on PS5 and Series Series X at launch prompting Respawn to tell ppl to play the game at 30 for awhile.

Current gen games are questionable. If
we're just gonna get 30 frames and drop res on current gen then how are these consoles differ than PRO and 1X?

[Christopher]

***Nothing, he mentions the 720p res drop in order to hit 60fps in the original link you provided.***

Right. But back then it was flawless. Now, it's a sign of issues?

***A Plagues Tale was 30 frames (now 60 patch) Batman is still 30 fps, Redfall 30, Forspoken Res drops, SF 30, Jedi Survivor was rarely hitting 60 on PS5 and Series Series X at launch prompting Respawn to tell ppl to play the game at 30 for awhile.***

That's great to list games that are 30 frames and some that have problems sticking to 60fps. And you didn't at all address the point that this is apologizing for a decision the developers are making and trying to make it about hardware when the hardware can do it.

Some games running at 60fps (since we're listing games?): SF6, Stray, P5R, RE4, CoDMW2, Tiny Tina's Wonderlands, FC6, Diablo 4, Genshin Impact, MH Rise, Deathloop, FFXVI, FF7R, Scarlet Nexus, NFS Unbound, GT7, and so on and so on.

Do they run at a lower resolution when hitting 60fps? Absolutely. But, they run at 60fps because the studio took time to make it happen. It's better than just giving the heck up. And not trying isn't a problem with the hardware, it's a problem with the studio.

[4Sh0w]

"Right. But back then it was flawless. Now, it's a sign of issues?"

-Well seems you answered your own question because like 30fps, 720p in 2023 is NOT "flawless" and never was, I guess his excitement just overlooked that fact...& it's something many have questioned, no doubt FF16 IS STILL GREAT, I keep telling folks specs don't necessarily make or break a game, we've seen flawed masterpieces all the time worthy of 10's but that doesnt mean they are "flawless"= on the tech side it's a bit of hit & miss. That's fine with me as Ive said before but then why is Starfield so bad in many ps folks eyes for the tradeoff Bethesda made= not a twitch fps, so 30fps plays fine & you can use the overhead to deliver a much more ambitious game. The truth is if any Xbox exclusive was 60fps at 720p in combat ps fans would be trolling hard, especially if it was Starfield: "lol omg it's only 720p!"

[Lightning77]

"Right. But back then it was flawless. Now, it's a sign of issues?"

Not sure. They might of jumped the gun in excitement, John is a big FF fan after all.

"And you didn't at all address the point that this is apologizing for a decision the developers are making and trying to make it about hardware when the hardware can do it."

The consoles were suppose to be next gen and that includes 4k 60 more often. Only fo the consoles to struggle. To BS feature complete. We don't even have a real explanation why they're struggling to be feature complete. Devs barely or vaguely explain why such cut backs are happening. Bethesda SF at least gave us an explanation while Redfall is just trash all around.

"Do they run at a lower resolution when hitting 60fps? Absolutely."

I don't remember that list of games dipping the frames to hit 60 fps. Fighting games and shooters often are 60 frames so that's not too surprising.

[blackblades]

Next gen doesn't have to be 4k60, thats just something some gamers not all but some like you threw out there and made it a thing of expecting. The main next gen experience was the fast loading, building worlds thats not stuck and evolve around hidden loading screen, dual sense amongst other things which some can include higher fidelity etc. If the FF16 team really did focus on 30fps and added 60fps later then that was the problem but they also had it capped at 60fps doing combat only and uncapped outside of combat was there method. We'll see down the road of Sony 1st party games only on ps5 which we already seen with RnC and demon souls as well as burning shores. We just want options.

[Sonic1881]

"Ragnarok did it pretty dang well and people forget about that)."

So did Horizon Forbidden West. The performance mode is incredible

[--Onilink--]

Yes, but then again, both of those games were cross gen

[Shane Kim]

Onilink

Why does that matter when you can't find anything prettier then Forbidden West on consoles? Then it has to be bad optimization from the developers.

[Tacoboto]

The performance mode became incredible after a series of ten to a dozen patches. At launch it was hazy and fuzzy; they reworked their upscaling and AA processing and only then delivered a solid beautiful Performance Mode.

It was in the patch either immediately before or the patch itself that introduced Balanced Mode and VRR support.

[Sonic1881]

@Taco
"The performance mode became incredible after a series of ten to a dozen patches. At launch it was hazy and fuzzy; they reworked their upscaling and AA processing and only then delivered a solid beautiful Performance Mode"

Not for God of War ragnarok. The performance mode was perfect

[Lightning77]

Those games are on PS4 also. The PS5 is sharing the PS4's architect and design. Not truly unique PS5 experience. Except Burning shores which shows the PS5's capabilities.

[Tacoboto]

I'm responding to you Sonic, who mentioned Horizon Forbidden West. Clearly I'm talking about Horizon.

[Sonic1881]

@Taco

Not Horizon Burning shores. It took advantage of the PS5 capabilities and one of the best looking games in 60fps on a console and the performance mode is perfect 🤔

[--Onilink--]

@Shane

Well, its the point of the entire article and their discussion in the podcast. With crossgen games it was much easier to get good performance modes (even 120fps modes) because the backbone on the game’s design is still targeting last gen (in particular their weak CPUs)

No one is saying they are not pretty games, Forza Horizon 5 is also a good example of a game being cross gen and having a significant difference too.

The point is, as the generation progresses, its more likely that unless a developer starts the project with 60fps in mind, they will probably design many of their systems around the render target for 30fps and it wont always be that easy to then push for 60 later (like in FF or Plague Tale)

Getting to 60fps isnt always just about lowering graphical settings and yes, there will also be games with 60fps modes that look and run great and will offer even more graphical fidelity at 30

[Tacoboto]

Horizon Forbidden West, dang how are you not understanding that! It was very public the first few months how Performance Mode looked.

No duh Horizon Burning Shores looks great in Performance Mode because they fixed the visual issues a year ago.

[--Onilink--]

I mean, if all you are going for is the titles of each video/article then yes, it would seem contradictory.

But the “flawless” video was never about having perfect performance, if anything almost right away he addressed it was lacking. It was about everything else and that its practically bug/issues free. Yes, they shouldn’t have called it flawless in the title with such a bad performance mode, but it doesnt hurt to actually watch the videos too.

Same for this article, no one is apologizing for devs, they are very directly saying its more likely we will see lackluster or missing performance modes if the developers goal is to push as much as possible within the 30fps target, and that is fundamentally a design decision and one that is not so easy to just push out a performance mode later if too much of their game design was based on the render time for 30fps. Its not always just about dropping resolution to get to 60fps

[Lightning77]

"Next gen doesn't have to be 4k60, thats just something some gamers not all but some like you threw out there and made it a thing of expecting."

Nobody was throwing anything out there. When you have Epic touting Unreal 5 capabilities for 3 years now we're still yet to fully experience those Unreal games you start to question 9th gen and what's really going on. Perhaps we have to wait to fully experience UE5 but how long do we have to wait. It didn't take ps360 or ps4 and x1 to show their capabilities.

I suppose if you look at the best 3rd party graphics of last gen. Red Dead Redemption 2 The Order 1886 was that tip off for last gen graphics. Now those types of graphics and animation are standard with this gen

"The main next gen experience was the fast loading, building worlds thats not stuck and evolve around hidden loading screen, dual sense amongst other things which some can include higher fidelity etc."

It's basically a Pro and 1X with fast loads, better controller (PS Duel Sense) and better effects. BO overhauled AI systems or unique level design like never before. So these consoles aren't doing anything a whole lot different. Paying more money for virtually the same. DF is on to something when they said they believe we'll see more 30 fps games. Imagine Alan Wake 2 being 30. That would make no sense if it is.

[wiz7191]

@Christoper Ragnarok was cross gen

[isarai]

Didn't literally you guys say it was "near flawless" and the important part is that it has options

[QuarkZ]

Something, something, Starfield 30FPS ridiculous, FFXVI flawless.

[Knushwood Butt]

Starfield 30 fps
That's why this article exists.

[GoodGuy09]

It's quite sad. With the new CPUs current gen are rocking, they'd definitely be able to handle all these games at 60 with the sacrifice of visual fidelity. That obviously was never a target of square's and did not want to spend the time to optimize the performance.

High action games need 60fps period.

[Number1TailzFan]

"With the new CPUs current gen are rocking"

They're not new, however they aren't really "weak" either, it's just they have clock speed limitations compared to desktop due to console formfactor. The chips are also 2 generations behind now and we've had decent IPC advances since then. Any demanding games will show the limitations of the consoles. It's just common sense, and it's what always happens with consoles.

[Minute Man 721]

These games are "too demanding" then 😆 🤣 😂

[P_Bomb]

Good game BUT…the further I get the worse performance mode seems to get. Needs more framerate optimization. I’m reminded of HFW which is a bigger, better looking game imo and holds 60 most excellently. If they can do it, Square can get there too.

[VersusDMC]

I was definitely dissapointed in the performance during exploration. Combat and cut scenes were great though.

Maybe it was just a issue with this team. Is this the FFXIV team's first single player game in awhile or ever? Hopefully FF7REBIRTH runs as good as Intergrade.

[blackblades]

From what DF said they might have just wanted it like that combat obvious 60fps and exploration and seeing the world as best it could be but with sacrifices of frames. Also since they were working with Sony and only one system that all that would be fine but at the end of the day people still enjoying it. Also maybe its just square teams looking at this forspoken, SO6 and I think valkyrie had problems or different problems as well.

[cheetah]

HFW doesn’t look better, sorry.

[VersusDMC]

Dead Space, RE4, HFW Burning Shores and Forespoken's 60fps mode were great when i played them earlier this year.

FFXVI definitely had dissapointing performance during exploration. Cutscenes and combat were great though.

But that could just be a problem with the FFXVI team (and Respawn)and not a problem that will happen from now on every game.

[victorMaje]

Exactly it’s a dev thing.
One can’t & shouldn’t automatically consider all games will suffer the same unoptimized fate.
Great game though performance is disappointing indeed.

[Good-Smurf]

I loved how they so conveniently left out all the Sony 1st party current gen only titles that all have 60 fps options or even higher through VRR displays.
Two Xbox exclusives failed to hit good frame rates so now you're going to tell us that we should expect less from both machines using FF16 as a scapegoat?
I guess them saw PS4 Pro version of ran SF6 better and look better than Series S really pissed off their favorite sponsor.
What about Spider Man 2 being 60 fps?
I only see this as them espcially Richard jumping on whatever's hot and blew its problem out of proportion while they get to keep sucking MS balls and papers.
Only to say at the end that we will get 30 fps games from game by game basis yeah no shit sherlock.
I hate blog post like this.

[Muigi]

Lol and people still don’t think a PS5 Pro is coming out oookkkk.

[PunksOnN4G]

Funny when a PS5 game hitting 60FPS.. But starfield 30fps is A OK LOL...

[Good-Smurf]

Looks like them doing soft damage control as they're the one so vocal about the how and why Starfield is 30 fps all without ever touching a game.
No such lip service for Sony 1st party titles.

[QuarkZ]

Funny when people here saying 30FPS for Starfield is baaaad, but FFXVI is perfect even if 60FPS is only in combat and at 720p

[Tacoboto]

Nevermind that FFXVI is broken up into chunks of land separated by map selections with static time of day.

[andy85]

Difference is theyve given people the choice not just locked them at 30. I play performance mode and it still feels good. Itdoesn't look 720. The upscaling engine is very good. But in my opinion there's zero excuse for this game not running well at 60. It not graphically top of the game

[Christopher]

***even if 60FPS is only in combat and at 720p***

Why do people say this like it's a negative thing? If people want 60fps, do you think they care about resolution enough to worry about what resolution?

[Charlieboy333]

Yep and Starfield isn't even close to as graphically intensive...and before anyone argues 'but but Starfield scope!'. That 'scope' is loaded in piece by piece and level by level. The predetermined and limited landing points on a 'planet'? Levels which are loaded. Fly into space? Loading. Item tracking? What idiot actually believes this affects the CPU and therefore the frames? Are all the game's objects somehow stored in the CPU cache or something? Or do you maybe...just...maybe....think all that data and the state of your equipment, game progress, conversation history, stats, etc are all stored on the drive. You know....like EVERY other large open world game has managed to do including object physics. It's no different than what they were doing in previous games like the ancient Skyrim, except with magnitudes more power available to them now. There's no excuse for it to be 30 fps on the X.....it has more than enough power to render the player visible world and objects at 60 fps....especially at that last gen detail level

[raWfodog]

In the first past of the article, they did state:

"Square-Enix delivers a beautiful, visually accomplished game but one that is (in our opinion at least) best played in its 30fps quality mode. There is a 60fps alternative, but performance is highly variable and resolution takes a substantial hit. In our show this week, my colleague John Linneman suggests that the game may have been developed with 30fps in mind and that the performance mode was added later, explaining why it seems like a poor fit for the content. I'm inclined to agree."

So I don't see a double-standard in their reporting. They're just pointing out that performance mode is having issues regularly hitting its target 60fps outside of combat.

[sadraiden]

You want PC performance out of a $500 console? But you also want cutting edge graphics? Pick one. Or buy a PC.

[CantThinkOfAUsername]

A similarly speced PC costs $830 and runs pretty much the same as PS5 with the bonus of stutters and cinematic 1% Low of 24FPS.

[CrimsonWing69]

All I can say is I’ve been playing on graphics mode and it’s been wonderful.

[victorMaje]

Not all games are the same. Not all resource needs/management is the same. Not all engines are the same. Not all devs are the same. Not all technical talent is the same.

But let’s disregard all that just because there are some games struggling to reach 60fps. Weird how all that talk about 30fps is ok & games will struggle to reach 60fps started after the whole Starfield fps issue.

Looks like DF are only experts at what they see in front of them, obviously. But not much knowledge beyond that or where/how technical talent can properly optimize games.
Pretty disingenuous to act like this is it for the gen & that we’ll see fewer 60fps games.

The problem is not that DF should know better, it’s that they do & they still choose to say what they’re saying.

[Petebloodyonion]

". Weird how all that talk about 30fps is ok & games will struggle to reach 60fps started after the whole Starfield fps issue."

I'm pretty sure that DF started talking about how 30 FPS would be the norm for the current video game console with games like Plague Tales2 that came out LAST year.
https://www.youtube.com/wat...
They even made a deep dive explaining how they managed recently to achieve a 60 FPS patch for the console by removing rats and sticking with 30 FPS for NPC and rats. showing that they are indeed knowledgeable and why they are a reference used in the industry.
https://www.eurogamer.net/d...

[MrNinosan]

I'm blessed, as I always play in 30fps and have never had issues with it.
And God damn FFXVI is beautiful 🥰

[RPGer]

60fps is huge W. however, as console a gamer I don't expect games to be in 60fps unless there is a huge sacrificing in graphics and resolution which contradict FF games presence. The most irritating thing in FFXVI and evey other game is the motion blur and any kind of any movement blur. I hate it. This motion blur should disappear or at least providing an option to shut it off and disable it for good.

[Petebloodyonion]

Were basically repeating what happened in 2015 when companies decided to stop making PS3 and Xbox 360 versions of their games to focus on Ps4 and Xbox1.
at least we don't complain about resolution as we used to (900P upscaled to 1080P vs 1080P).
https://www.gamespot.com/ar...
https://www.extremetech.com...

Expect mid gen upgrade to help with this issue.

[--Onilink--]

I still cant see a mid gen upgrade coming out any time soon, if at all.

They barely sold last time, even with the specific marketing appeal of 4k and HDR, what would be the push this time.

Not to mention, the consoles 3 years into their potential 8 year lifespan have INCREASED their cost. What would a Pro console would even cost to actually get a discernible difference in specs (especially considering costs for parts arent really dropping) ? $700? $800?

We haven't even fully left the crossgen period yet. As much as I would love to see better performance mode from consoles and not having to miss out of RT unless you do 30, I just don’t see a market for a mid gen upgrade this time, at least not until 2026 at the earliest, at which point it would be more of a cashgrab to get a few people to double dip just before the next generation

[Petebloodyonion]

I don't expect mid-gen to come next year but I fully expect Sony and MS to announce one down the line to alleviate performance, Ray tracing quality, SSD size, and resolution.

[Flewid638]

I love how gamers call themselves gamers, yet are oblivious to the difference between a hardware problem vs a dev problem.

I love FF16 but there are games with better graphics and performance on console. This is purely a dev issue.

[repsahj]

Did they forget about Demons souls remake, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank, and TLOU part 1? Even the next gen versions of insomiacs games runs and looks great.

[deadfrag]

The game runs piss poor and some even have the nerve to compare it to the Masterpiece God of War: Ragnarök.FF 30fps quality mode controls fell heavy and the performance mode it's poor in every way.