The Last of Us 2 epitomizes one of gaming’s longest debates

Naughty Dog, the creators of Uncharted, have finally bridged the gap between story and action, dragging the story kicking and screaming and gurgling on its own blood to align with what you actually do in their games: kill people.

[cluclap]

People really don't get the point of this game

[seanpitt23]

I have played it 37 hours clocked in on my playthrough Took my time, but I never want to play it again because

F€$k the last of us Part 2 made me feel so empty and depressed and It’s just a pointless game that tarnishes the absolute beautiful and special game that is the last of us Part 1. Neil Druckman didn’t have a clue how to approach part 2 he needed more help he was way out of his depth and it shows a mile off.

It’s just a real shame that the most beautiful franchise and characters has been destroyed.

[DrDeath]

Well thats just like... your opinion

whatever dude

[DigitalHope]

I guess you think part 1 must be pretty pointless too then huh?

[MrNinosan]

First of all, 37 hours... what the heck did you do? My first playthrough with 209 collectibles, probably 3+ hours in Photo Mode took med 32 hours. Aswell I took my time, and in my second playthrough I do exactly that again, spending even more time in Photo Mode.

Anyways, to the point. Part 2 is pointless according to you, let me guess it would ve better for you if Abby got killes at the end? That would have been less pointless then?

What happened in Part 1 then, that was so much better. We killed lots of people to get a cure out to the world, an amazing journey which ends with what? Absolutely nothing but both our main characters still alive and failed mission. Just more death.

I love Part 1, and Part 2 is even better, that’s my opinion of course.

[cluclap]

The point was to show that the characters you kill in games are actual people. It was a realistic portrayal of the cruel world these people live in. The name of the game is the Last of US. Not joel and ellie, not Abby and Ellie. I think they showed perfectly something never really done before in games and ground what you're actually doing to people in videogames in reality.
Also joel gave his life to save ellie, it just happened 4 years later.
I think he would've wanted to die like that so if it made you depressed it did its job

[cluclap]

@mrninosan he obviously didn't even buy the game and is just talking crap

[Tacoboto]

I put double the hours into Days Gone that I didn't like but even I didn't think that was pointless.

How do you spend that much time on something so pointless to you? Clearly Druckmann did right to engage you for nearly a full work-week

[Lexreborn2]

How can so many people romanticize Joel and Ellie the way they have? Joel was a fragmented character that we were thrusted into aligning with by being empathetic to watching his daughter die. But, we missed 20 years of Joel doing some shady shit before he met Ellie.

And even in his single most redeeming act from our perspective. He was still being an awful person. There was nothing perfect about these characters, there was nothing even hopeful. The Last of Us 1 ended on a lie, how can people be this oblivious to the implications the world laid out?

[ziggurcat]

"the last of us Part 2 made me feel so empty and depressed"

That's kind of what the point was.

"It’s just a pointless game that tarnishes the absolute beautiful and special game that is the last of us Part 1."

How?

"Neil Druckman didn’t have a clue how to approach part 2"

He approached it perfectly. You not liking the outcome of something that everyone seems to be irrationally upset about (despite that it was made very apparent in the very first trailer for the game that that was going to happen) != no clue.

[mandf]

I'm sorry how many ending of humanity situations have you been in? Like you are an authority on it. It was a story meant to provoke emotion and it did. It's one thing to kill and survive but completely different to seek out to kill someone for revenge.

The story is deep in how it portrays 2 different points of view of revenge. It was meant to provoke emotion which very few games do. Killing to survive is horro in its self and you lose part of yourself. Most people think revenge killing is simple.and emotionless but its mental torture and you destroy your soul. The story was thought provoking. Some of you are to young to understand.

[SegaGamer]

Ah yes, the typical "You don't like it because you don't get it" reaction. I remember the same reaction to Death Stranding. Seriously, get over yourselves.

[ziggurcat]

There are a lot of points of the game that people appear to be missing, which is largely why they're up in arms over the story. So yeah... they don't actually get the point.

[Final_Aeon]

ziggurat - not liking the story doesn't equal "not getting it". It would be wise to not generalize and dismiss comments because you make presumptions about them.

[ziggurcat]

"ziggurat - not liking the story doesn't equal "not getting it"."

It usually does mean that. We see it all the time. A lot of these opinions complaining about certain aspects of the story are just examples of people failing to grasp the concepts within the game or generally whining about something because it wasn't how they wanted it to be.

[Obelisk92]

We got the same reaction for Death Stranding because it was the same thing.

With Death Stranding it was only easier to get why people disliked it. It was not a game for everyone, and not in an "elitist" sense. Just not everyone enjoys it.

[mandf]

Glamour

You are in every tlou2 thread hating on the game. If you dont like it move on. You have stated at least 40 negative posts in 2 days. You are just a hater. Why are you still here? You are just trolling now.

[MWH]

Don't generalize. there are more people than you think there are who gets it, probably even more than you do.

[Nicknasty]

The point is the story failed and the game is actually very slow paced and boring. Other than the beautiful graphics, its highly overrated under that pretty coat of paint.

Its probably why Naughty Dog did what they did with making the story so controversial. Trying to hide the fact the game itself actually kinda sucks. Flashing back every hour with boring tedious tutorials and a long drawn out mess of boring cutscenes. Backtracking with some stealth mixed in. Most of the game has you just wandering around with not much going on. Very little action! Tomb raider does a much better job! Now, lets mix in some agenda driven bs while were at it.

No thanks, this isn’t a videogame! Its a frikin political statement. Im sorry, but i play videogames to escape the mess of a world we live in. Naughty Dog has sunk to a new low. The fans have spoken and it will backfire on them. Majority of user reviews are terrible!

Naughty Dog are demanding any negatives be taken down? What a bunch of cry babies they are, lol. Game is a bore ontop of everything else. There are so many other games that are much more deserving and dont get the recognition they deserve. Maybe because they arent caught up on trying to force political nonsense on everyone.

[SamPao]

Over 4 million gamers have spoken user reviews are going up everyday. Because yoi know. People actually need to play the game to give it a fair review

[outsider1624]

See now here's what we call a sad little hater! Move on bud. Get laid or something like that.

This game ain't for you.

[ziggurcat]

There's no "political nonsense" being forced on anyone. Play the game, and you'll realize that.

[Obelisk92]

Ow, that sounds awful. Must be a 60 on metacritic. Let me see-oh wait.

I can't stand when people is clearly, clearly nitpicking and they exaggerate things because they WANT to hate the game. Most times for political reasons, apparently.

[Obelisk92]

@Applyo

You think we're so dumb not to notice you're a troll account with 5 comments huh?

It's because of persons like you that it's impossible to take too seriously the hate about this game. You're digging your own grave.

Try again next time buddy.

[ssj27]

stop excusing the illogical. Imagine if the new GOW kratos was killed and you have to play as his son only him turning into a she mtf trans while having male to male scenes. Anyone with half a brain will be upset sure the gameplay is good and acting is good presentation is stellar (but pace of gameflow hurt to fit stupid agenda and narrative) but Imagine that happening. It will be very upsetting and weird to play. So stop telling me or anything to be ok with whatever they did to last of us 2

[mandf]

You sir a liar and lack critical thinking skills. Stick to tic tok.

[TheKingKratos]

You are a moron and liar and you don't play as trans

[ssj27]

You don't play as a ts? I saw gameplay video she is more muscular than the rock wtf. Definitely a ftm if not fully going that way hence aware poeple can see the agenda and not hating on the game itself but the agenda behind it that sony and free mason put into. Check agenda 2030. Anyways stop been babies protecting the agenda. If you like the game cool! I bet from what i hear the game is like last of us 1 but better minus the stupid plot. That i am glad many of you enjoyed. Is not like i easily enjoyed any entertainment now days since i can see the agendas behind every or most movies music and game. But the tou2 is way to big and obvious hence the awakening and complaints. But every game is full of agendas nwo stuff it's disgusting because they could be better but change to fulfill new world order agenda.
I will eventually play it i guess. But you all should be aware that the lgt agenda is been pushed to then normalize Pedophilia sure today you say no way that be normalize but wait and see.

[DrDeath]

To be fair. Abby is grossly and unrealistically jacked. She would need steroids in most scenes. But she is a woman and has normal sex with a man.

I loved the game. Loved abby. But hated her look and was turned off by it. (Yes im a man who works out religiously and i understand how impossible her build is)

[Obelisk92]

You don't play as a trans and you should actually play a videogame before talking like this.

Abby is muscular because she wanted to be strong. And yeah, she's ugly because of that, we can have ugly characters too you know.
She also has very masculine look because for some interpretations she represents another version of one certain man se killed...

[ssj27]

You guys don't need to have a brain to understand th ageda behind this. To get Jack like that a women has to transform by taking men hormones promoting trans a trans sleeps with anything (not everyone is the same sure) but this is the point and agenda here is that is pushing to soon normalize Pedophilia. You guys don't see this are going to have a rude awakening soon then those who defending transumanism sexualism are going to be against Pedophilia or at least I hope but by then a new age of stupidity is going to differend it and not see it as it's wrong. Don't believe me wait and see it's disgusting

[CKPan]

I got the point and purpose of stool, and I don't like it.

[CKPan]

This is a bad story telling game, don't tell me there is a point we don't get, there were so many good games before this one, and we got them. suddenly this is a bad game because we don't get it!?

[DrDeath]

Story was great.

[Dragonscale]

Some people genuinely don't actually like this game but apparently they're just 'haters' lol.

[DrDeath]

The majority do enjoy it tho. By viewing real user scores (psn rating
Of 90% - requires purchase)

[V3geta]

If there's one point to take away from this game is to learn to let go, no matter how hard it may be.

[Father__Merrin]

Anyone who doesn't like this I recommend Bumpies Party 🎉 instead here's a trailer of it https://youtu.be/Mtt99SUtEE...

[AK91]

I mean I know it’s Polygon but the debate mentioned in the article has nothing to do with the actual debate people are having with this product.

[SamPao]

Well maybe they are not here to feed that debate and want to make a point?
Not everyone is out to take part in "that" debate you know

[rainslacker]

True, but it's still a decent debate to be had. It's not uncommon for people to talk about how you're a mass murderer with consequences to your actions. Nathan drake from uncharted in particular seems to get this criticism as people try to bring down the game.

I think that argument is overanalyzing the premise, but in this game, Joel's death was a direct result of his murder spree, and if you really wanted to analyze the first game, he didnt have to kill the doctor. The people trying to kill him...sure. but if he just killed those trying to kill him, the revenge plot doesnt work as well, because you'd only be empathizing with joel because you wanted ellie to live.

I wonder how people would have reacted if ellie actually died in the first game. Wonder if they would have been as in up in arms if joel willingly sacrificed his own salvation to save the world. It would still be a poignant story, but would people accuse ND of killing off major characters for something senseless.

[SyntheticForm]

People excused Joel and his no more than 'hinted at' bad background behavior because of the more immediate foreground plight of losing his daughter. Then, after some reluctance, he grew fond of and basically adopted Ellie and nurtured her with love and lesson like a good and loving father. So, with little imagery detailing Joel's past sins, and lots of it focusing on his current, in-game fatherly actions, the empathy became utter endearment by the end. But, Joel's tenderness with Ellie doesn't negate his evil actions, and those actions caught up with him.

I know you're extremely aware of all that, but that context needs be there regardless.

That bad background behavior (as I called it) is being utterly disregarded by so many even though it's part of the story, and the fact that it caught up with him makes total and perfect sense. It's told quite effectively, yet people are just seething over it, as if Joel's continued existence is a requirement for the theme of 'The Last of Us' to be a successful and well executed story. Even that title has broad implications. Joel and Ellie aren't "The Last of Us" they're only some of or part of "The Last of Us."

To your question; yes, I do think many people would have made a fuss, but perhaps it would have been more acceptable. Acceptable because Joel laid down his life for Ellie. Then, Part II could have been approached in much the same manner; Ellie hunting down Joel's killers and bringing them to 'justice.' But we'll never know that, and it really doesn't matter.

I think the problem is fans just basically and simply can't handle the death of characters they like. I wish I had better answer, or could give a better answer, but that's honestly all I can think of seeing these responses that don't seem to be the responses of a critical thinker, or someone who can appreciate potency and elevation given to characters in their deaths. I don't want to sound patronizing, but I think that's just it. Like you, I've rarely seen a cogent argument in opposition to the game; if any.

[rainslacker]

I think Joel changed, but only in the sense that he had a reason to live. I don't think he changed to the point he wouldn't still do terrible things should the need arise. By need I do mean based on his perception.

And that's what this game was trying to convey. That people have their reasons for doing these things, and these things seem like they're necessary, or justified. But, the game also made a point that despite all this, those consequences have actions, both for the individual committing them, and to others that are connected to whoever they do these things to.

This is a theme that is left out of most games, if not all but a few, because it's not a topic that you really want to think about while playing a game. You want to play the good guy....or the bad guy with the moral high ground in some cases. Your actions have to be justified, and generally speaking, while playing a game, you don't want to reminded of the consequences of immoral actions. Gaming is generally about escapist fun. But, at times, things like this are not a bad thing to explore, as they put one's own moral identity into focus.

My question about the first game, was what if Joel hadn't of saved Ellie, and Ellie died. I think you thought that I asked what if Joel had died. That also would have been an interesting way to end the story, or could have been, but in that case, that would have been the main character sacrificing himself at the end, and that has been done in other games, or media before, and it can be a meaningful conclusion if done right. In that case, I feel given his explained past, it would have been the ultimate redemption for his path back to humanity.

"I think the problem is fans just basically and simply can't handle the death of characters they like."

I agree. I remember some people were upset that Ned Stark died at the end of the first season of GOT. It was in the book, but a lot of people were upset. And when you kill off a character people like, it turns you against those that did it, and has a point to the story. This game did that too. It had the power to make people feel the anger and grief that Ellie felt, although maybe not at the same level, and it made you want revenge. People claim it was meaningless, but it wasn't, because it immediately made you have more empathy for Ellie's plight. That later gets turned on it's head, as you start to play Abby's side of the story, and you grow to have empathy for her. It was a really brilliant way to explore this concept, although I'm sure it's been done somewhere before. The pacing was the only problem of this approach, and when things started getting good, and seeming like they'd pick up, they started all over again. If they didn't have the pacing issues, I think it may have been more interesting, but that slow part was important for building Abby's character. Some say you should have played her first, but I don't think most people would have liked to come to a point where they were hunting Joel, or would have been upset if they found that the story was about that.

[SyntheticForm]

Also, to add, this is not a story of heroes.

Joel is a hero to Ellie for obvious reasons, but he isn't a hero in any other sense - far from it. The idea that he deserved better; I'm not even sure what that means, completely. Did he "deserve" to high-five Ellie with a sunset at the end of Part II? Or, did he "deserve" a different death? Did he "deserve" more exploration in some way? That's for the writers to decide, but I think at this point it's really that certain fans misguidedly believe 'they' deserved something different.

Wow, I thought you were referring to Joel. That's my cue. I need sleep.

[SyntheticForm]

"This is a theme that is left out of most games, if not all but a few, because it's not a topic that you really want to think about while playing a game. You want to play the good guy....or the bad guy with the moral high ground in some cases. Your actions have to be justified, and generally speaking, while playing a game, you don't want to reminded of the consequences of immoral actions. Gaming is generally about escapist fun. But, at times, things like this are not a bad thing to explore, as they put one's own moral identity into focus."

I think this is precisely the issue. Maybe it's just too serious and severe for some. Things like this are absolutely not bad to explore, but their rarity also makes them special.

Was a very welcome experience for me. I value worlds with severity and consequence, because they make for good and compelling stories.

[rainslacker]

I think no matter how you look at Joel's death, no matter what, his story had already been told. He lost his way after Sarah's death, then found redemption of himself by saving Ellie. He doomed humanity in saving himself, and to him, it was the right thing to do. Selfish maybe, but given our connection to the character, we all accepted it in the first game, and the ethical and moral quandary of his actions, which were talked about more in this game...even among Ellie and Joel...were disregarded because we also wanted them to live happily ever after.

His story being told, there wasn't many other ways to continue it. That didn't mean they had to kill him off, but it was a good staging ground to do what they were trying to do with this game's story. Yeah it sucks, but I think whatever they were trying to achieve narrative wise, they did so with his death. Turning that around with such a beloved character being tortured and killed, and making you actually empathize with the so called antagonist, is a feat in and of itself, and something I think people aren't giving ND credit enough for. I realize some people may not feel the same way about Abby, or come to accept her justification for what she did, but I think that is based on what you refer to as the hero worship that has been placed on both Joel and Ellie.

To me, Abby and Ellie had the same motivations. Neither was really a good person, but while Ellie lost herself, and lost everything she loved, Abby found herself, and gained something to live for. Their paths were opposite mirrors of one another, until the end where I believe that Ellie found herself to be like what Joel was when she first met him. Aimless and without humanity.

I 100% believe if Joel and Ellie weren't established characters, and say they were just father and daughter, or they only had the most cursory explanation of their path in the first game, people's views on this story would be completely different. I'm curious how people feel about the story if they hadn't played the first game. I think there was enough there to establish the relationship between Joel and Ellie and what it meant to her in the flashbacks. But without that connection to Joel from the first game, it would offer a interesting perspective on who was the "better" character developmental wise.

[SyntheticForm]

Right, because ND did such a good job of humanizing everyone; Abby most importantly. The fact that some of us were moved instead of being spiteful as we played through Abby's story after she killed Joel (even though I knew Joel wasn't perfect) is indeed a feat. Not at first; Abby's views at the beginning were narrow and intolerant. Everyone else was invalid but her and her group; like a Roman's view of a so-called barbarian.

Yeah, agreed on Abby and Ellie. Tommy certainly didn't help popping in and guilting her with what amounted to charges of disloyalty. Funny how Tommy was initially seemingly swallowing the loss after assessing the risks, only to end up angry at Ellie for not taking action. Guess he really wasn't swallowing it.

I almost feel as though a "Part III" is a dare at this point considering how well they've done. Like 'don't push it.' Sorta how people worried a sequel would tarnish the first game. After this storytelling though, I have pretty good faith in this team. Thought they did a fantastic job.

[DrDeath]

I remember trying not to kill the dr but you absolutely had to in the first game. Now i understand why

[gigzamillion]

There's no debate over this game lots of people love it while a small vocal minority are trying and failing to ruin it.

[MetalGearsofWar]

No one wants to "ruin" this game.

[Bathyj]

Haha. That was cute

[gigzamillion]

*looks at obvious user review bombing on Metacritic*

Sorry you're wrong some clearly do.

[MetalGearsofWar]

@gigzamillion
Or maybe they're voicing opinions as to how the game could be better to justify a purchase for them.

[TheSaint]

They are a minority but they definitley exist.

[PiNkFaIrYbOi]

Humans are a violent species. We are hardwired towards it really. It helps us as a species survive and thrive. So it is amusing that people want to deny it as something bad. It is just something that makes us what we are.

[Ristul]

We are also known to cooperate when faced with a common enemy. That aspect of Tlou could have been a great focus, they are facing extinction after all.

[whitbyfox]

There may be many debates about this game, but we can all agree on one thing: if you try to open a door, you already know that it will be locked.

[TheKingKratos]

Lol true

[anast]

the Last of Us part 2 is not just killing. Usually when people reduce something to the lowest common, they don't really have anything to say. I get it the writer of this article has a job to do, but for f' sake, is it possible to do a better job?

[Suzyp]

Having the debate is fine I have no problem with their story direction but the game has a terrible way of delivering that message. It's all over the place, disjointed mess. Neil thinks he nailed it but in reality, he has no idea how to put the puzzle together.

[Bruh]

I don't get why anyone bothers with dissent on this site. If you write any sort of criticism towards this game you'll get down-voted to oblivion loll. Just move on and take your rage to your own forums

[CKPan]

This is a bad story telling game, don't tell me there is a point we don't get, there were so many good games before this one, and we got them. suddenly we don't like the last of us II is because we don't get it!?

[DrDeath]

Joel changed. Ellie changed.

 Over he years, the pair survived by descending into a sinister way of life, hurting innocent people; going so far as killing them; all to survive. It's heavily implied that Joel tortured, deceived, and killed several people, becoming a hunter. He adopted tactics such as tricking passerbys into thinking he was hurt so he, Tommy, and likely others could ambush them when they let their guard down.

So tell me again how joel wasnt a bad guy?

[drunkenspy007]

saw polygon, avoided like the plague