As Naughty Dog Crunches On The Last Of Us II, Devs Wonder How Much Longer This Approach Can Last

Jason Schreier writes: Many who have worked at Naughty Dog over the years describe it as a duality—as a place that can be simultaneously the best and the worst workplace in the world. Working at Naughty Dog means designing beloved, critically acclaimed games alongside artists and engineers who are considered some of the greatest in their fields. But for many of those same people, it also means working upwards of 12-hour days and even weekends when the studio is in crunch mode, sacrificing their health, relationships, and personal lives at the altar of the game.
“They do try to take care of you, providing food, encouragement to go take breaks,” said one former developer. “But for the most part, the implication is: ‘Get the job done at all costs.’”

[Smokehouse]

How long has this game been in development? Seems like a long time... why would crunch be necessary? Every trade job works 10-12 hours a day all year long. I have no sympathy.

[ilikestuff]

Yea, I don’t get it either. For them to be “crunching” this long this game would have to be the biggest game ever. And they took.. out... multiplayer.... how is this game taking so long? Guess we’ll see why soon

[VenomUK]

It was delayed from February to May 2020 purely to spend more time on polishing it. The game is effectively 'finished' bar fine tuning. However this type of story is one that cavalier journalists love because they can make juicy accusations that the subject, Naughty Dog, can refute but the journalist can always claim that their insider is the one telling the truth.

[Fluttershy77]

@VenomUK conspiracy theorists love these stories too

[RosweeSon]

If your making a game that is pretty much the same game as last year or fifa or cod then sure easy 12 months same engine same menus same set ups just a few new levels for cod and new maps for multiplayers few tweaks here and there. This game is brand new I doubt they using same engine as before even if they are it’s gonna be pushing this current gen to its limits like the previous game did last gen great games take time. Generally 2-3 years if not more If they value their game which they do hence not rushing it and patching it at a later date.

[Petebloodyonion]

@VenomUK
Have you read the story?
It's not an insider it's testimony from many devs at Naughty Dogs and the Uncharted 4's story isn't some kind of fanfiction it's well documented by the ppl that quit the company because of it.

[Angyobangyo]

Long development times don’t equate to big games. Duke Nukem was in development for 15 years and still turned out to be below average at best.

[aconnellan]

@rosweeSon

“hence not rushing it”

Just to be clear, crunch time is literally “rushing it”

[ilikestuff]

I’m sure the game will be great, it’s just strange is all I’m saying. I wanna see this game that cut multiplayer and took years to make and is still in crunch time.

[blacktiger]

so what all games including final fantasy 7 is now bad wtf is wrong with gamers today?

[Hungryalpaca]

Might want to start getting an education.

[Vizigoth04]

It is the studio managers role not to only get the job done but also take care of employees. One has to work in advanced a sharp schedule. One that can incorporate night and day shift, leave requests and other common sense items. Working hard has its reward. Being taken care of as an employee should also be a priority too.

[notachance]

i'm a developer and I think this will always continue in some form or another for the foreseeable future as long as you announce the release date since far away.

programming stuff is just that, it's very hard to foresee how long you're gonna work on something. What you thought was gonna take a week ended up taking the whole month or something. It's not only in gaming but programming as a whole, but it stands out more in gaming since there's the release date announcement stuff. Only way to not crunch is to hold off on the release date until the work is 90% done or something.

[porkChop]

That's what publishers *should* be doing. Announce games when they're 4 or 5 months from release. Marketing will be far cheaper that way, and it'll be much easier to maintain consumer interest.

[Rebel_Scum]

Yeah it stands out more in gaming because of the intricacies of working within the game loop and all the threading they must deal with. Yuck.

[rainslacker]

You don't have to delay a release date announcement. But being overly concerned with hitting a target release date and unwilling to delay is going to cause more crunch. ND is one of those studios with highly dedicated developers, so the crunch is probably more about studio culture than being behind schedule. ND got more time, so the release date isn't the issue here, as they are still months away from release.

[Sono421]

While what you said is 100% true, the opposite is true as well, something you think might take a month or two, you might end up getting done in a couple weeks. There are two sides to this.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

Crunch time is going to happen regardless of how long something has been in development. it's just the period when they're nearing the finish line. The thing is, when you have a confirmed date, it becomes almost inherent to ramp things up just to be sure it does get finished. It's just unfortunate for anyone to have to be under constant pressure for several hours a day, every day.

[OCEANGROWNKUSH]

Comes down to polish... You can literally sit and work endlessly on your art, but there comes a time where you have to just accept what it is and put it out. When you create something from the ground up you know where all the flaws lie, you know millions of people will be picking apart every little thing and so you just want to "get it right". Now imagine an entire studio feeling this way with a release date quickly approaching.

[Rebel_Scum]

Haha every tradie does not work those hours every day. Can't tell you the amount of times we're about to start a new job at a site, look at the time, and think bugger that because we can't finish it that day and head to the pub.

[Smokehouse]

You use UK language lol. It’s different for you guys, you have legit nap times lmao. Here in the US they work us like dogs. I work 10-12 hours a day and have for 6 years straight lol. When does my crunch end? It doesn’t. It’s just the way it is. It’s why I’m on here looking at gaming news, so I don’t go crazy.

[extermin8or]

@smokehouse: nap times? lol nah you're thinking of central europe. We are similar to you just we insisted on laws to protect home-work balance for most industries and wont accept having that or holidays taken from us as a general rule. :p That said I worked 10-12 hours a day to finish projects as part of my physics degree... especially near the end of them and people regularly have to work 10-12 hours at the shop i work at part time atm. Particularly when people are say panic buying or around christmas, retail has it's own equivalent of crunch it's a normal thing when approaching a big deadline or launch etc.

[rainslacker]

I assume your in construction based on your comment. There is a marked difference between starting a project you can't finish given the time of day, and a building a product that has no restriction on what time of day you work on it. There are practical reasons why you stop working on the project for the day. There is no practical reason why you would have to stop working in an office just because it gets dark, or its about to rain.

Not that I agree with crunch, but I know it's a thing that's going to happen sometimes when it comes to some kind of media production. The nature of the crunch, and how often it happens and why are the biggest factors. If the staff is doing it because they want to improve what they have done, it's much different than trying to scramble to finish a deadline. The latter is usually oppressive, and frustrating because it feels like you aren't accomplishing anything....and there is a lot of waiting for testing during this time so it's doubly frustrating because you can't see immediate results. The former is usually pretty rewarding, because you can see improvements on a good product, so you end up taking pride in what you're doing.

Different scenarios for different things. I don't know where ND falls in on that scale, but they got a delay already, and they tend to be perfectionists.

[aquamala]

I’m a software developer (not in gaming) and work 8 hours a day, no way I’m working 10-12 hours that’s not normal

[RosweeSon]

Because it’s built from ground up and not a yearly churned sequel. Your right tho no sympathy for 10-12 hour days welcome to the real world most people get paid minimal wage for that 😑🥴😜✌&# 127995;

[MatrixxGT]

Pretty much. I’m a heavy equipment mechanic that works on construction equipment and I avg 55 a week. I’ve done 24hr shifts, I’ve done overnights, I’ve done 90+ a few times. So what? Your in a profession that at times calls for you to leave the 9to5 behind to get a job done.

As long as your being adequately compensated then i say maybe this job isn’t for you? My job told me what was required of me at times during my hiring process just like ND does. You sign up for it, stop bitching about it when time comes to step up.
Also there is nothing wrong with getting burnt out and changing jobs or find another career path. It happens all the time.
This article sounds like it was written by a entitled brat that wants programming degree pay while working as a bank teller.

[Smokehouse]

Exactly, as long as you are compensated then it’s all good. It’s a service, when people need their stuff then they need their stuff. Hours be damned. I hate my job, I wish I was making games. I do it because they pay me for it and the crazy hours means more money, bonuses, etc. I wouldn’t do the shit otherwise. And certainly wouldn’t demand that the internet fix it lol.

[rainslacker]

You are actually correct. It's well known that crunch is a given for all but a few trades in the game industry. For instance, I make tools for game engines, and work with developers on the back end. I have a 9-5 job. I can actually pick my hours so long as I'm there during core hours. But, sometimes, since we provide tech support for our tools, I do end up spending long hours working with devs who need to get a job done. Sometimes I can do this from home, sometimes it requires me to have a dev kit so I have to work at the office. It's not overly strenuous work, even for the devs most times, because it's not like they're coding the whole time. You write a line of code, or analyze it for hours then change one thing, then wait a couple hours for the next. Sometimes you can work on something else.

My point is, that stepping up is something that is required for productions like this. If it became 9-5, game production would pretty much become inconceivably expensive. The movie industry went through unionization, and even the people that work in it and are unionized understand that not everything goes to plan, and they may end up spending extra hours on set. It rains all day for a daylight scene, and you only have that location for a day or two, you're going to be working longer that day. Same goes for game production. Sometimes things just don't go as well as they should, and the unforseen is a given. Good studios account for this unforseen. Those that constantly release poor products and have constant crunch do not.

[Petebloodyonion]

Then How about having to work 70 hours average a week for several months with no extra money or just some cold free pizzas?
How would you feel?
Take a look
https://www.gamesindustry.b...

And here some comment from low talent like the main story writer of Uncharted and the Street fighter lead designer.
"The whole time I was at Naughty Dog - ten-and-a-half years - I probably, on average, I don't know if I ever worked less than 80 hours a week. There were exceptions where it was like, 'Okay, let's take a couple of days off,' but I pretty much worked seven days a week, at least 12 hours a day."
https://www.gamesindustry.b...

"Most remarkable is the fact that these conditions have been a mainstay of Ono’s career at Capcom, going back to the early 90s when he would stay at the office until 2AM coding game music, go home for a few hours of sleep, and then be back at work by 7AM."
https://killscreen.com/prev...

[NXFather]

Yeah that is true until those employees get sick or health starts to suffer. Then it has to be analysed correctly.

[NXFather]

Do you feel that way about soldiers suffering ptsd or depression and then expected to fufill job obligations? Sometimes compensation comes in the form of lifelong disability payments. Science wins on this one. Otherwise each country should cut these type of exams and compensation. Now working at a desk is not exactly a combat zone but, it has to be taken case by case.

[Rhythmattic]

Petebloodyonion
Well I guess the California state government address's this issue with the new AB5 law.
Though it will effect and kill the music industry, I wonder if it will impact any Development studio based in California..... Silicon Valley especially...
I imagine many are hired as Freelance or Contractors... Hmmm... Just putting it out there.

[Mr_Swagtastic_]

This man gets it I agree 100% I have no sympathy if your situation is so awful then leave no one is forcing you to work these hours. This is ridiculous what do they want 20hr work weeks. You don’t make great things without hard work.

[Petebloodyonion]

How about searching on the subject before making a post
like this study showing that 2/3 of dev are working 70 hours and plus while some aren't paid
https://www.gamesindustry.b...
or the article about Yoshinori Ono (the Street fighter 4 producer) about health issues
https://www.cinemablend.com...
or Amy Hennig (the story writer of Uncharted) interview where she talks about the work schedule and impact.
https://www.gamesindustry.b...

But Hey! no one forced these peoples, right?

[rainslacker]

To make games of that caliber, it takes a dedication to taking every moment available to improve on the game. The game was delayed to improve it, but that doesn't mean they see it as finished. Crunch isn't always necessary, but sometimes, the culture of a dev makes it a thing. In the case of a dev that is on schedule otherwise, it seems bad, and constant crunch is indeed bad. But I wouldn't take the discussion from this article as always bad. You are talking about some of the most dedicated developers in the world. The kind of people who can thrive on such things. Not everyone at the studio will, but if you've ever worked with a creative group like that, its just the culture by which they live....until they grow weary of it and move on.

[Smokehouse]

Right I’m sure 99% of them chose to stay there lol. These articles make the industry sound like slave work.

[Rebel_Scum]

Not even from UK or Europe for that matter lol.

[Games1st]

Average 12-15 hours a day. Some people worked 24-hour shifts towards the final seven weeks of Uncharted 4‘s development.

[Smokehouse]

For a few weeks to finish a project though. Bust ass for a few weeks and then do absolutely nothing for a few months. Casually work on dlc or preproduction on the next game. My point was that people work 12 hour days all year long, it’s just the job. There is no hard few weeks and then cruise. It’s constant.

[spicelicka]

What kind of response is this. There is no "necessary". If there's crunch time there's crunch time, it's not like they are forcing crunch time upon themselves lol wtf are you saying.

"Every trade job works 10-12 hours a day all year long."

Then they all need to change.

[Smokehouse]

Deadline is a deadline. My question was why do they need crunch after working on a game for 15 years? Isn’t that the point of not doing crunch.

No they don’t need to change. I don’t mind working 10-12 if I’m paid correctly. I’m not a slave, it’s a choice. Most traders choose more money and benefits.

[spicelicka]

"Deadline is a deadline. My question was why do they need crunch after working on a game for 15 years? Isn’t that the point of not doing crunch."

But that's exactly what the devs are saying. After working so long on the game they STILL need to crunch, which obviously means the higher ups are increasing pressure and making them do more work than they should be doing.

"No they don’t need to change. I don’t mind working 10-12 if I’m paid correctly. I’m not a slave, it’s a choice. Most traders choose more money and benefits."

Maybe they're not paid correctly, that's one of the biggest problems with this industry.

[Hungryalpaca]

Try working 18 hour days for months then we’ll talk.

Why is crunch necessary? How about learning how game development works.

[Smokehouse]

Indie devs work 18 hours to get their game in the store but they aren’t on here bitching about it. They take pride in their work. And they have no idea if they will be compensated for it. No sympathy for
Corporate game devs who get paid decently from what I hear. If the compensation for overtime isn’t enough then speak up. Not anonymously through some game article but to the person that pays you lol.

I know why crunch is necessary and I know that game development is mostly contract work. It’s no different than that heavy machine mechanic getting a week to fix somebody’s crane. The complexity and scale can differ but the concept is the same. It’s not a 9-5. it’s a get the shit done promptly contract.

I asked why crunch was necessary on this game because it has been in production for 32 years. Talking with these fine people I have come to 2 conclusions.

1) there is something seriously wrong and it’s all hands on deck
Or
2) people are staying because they want to and they take pride in their finished work. Instead of contracting more people they are taking on more hours. The few who say screw that feel pressured. I don’t care.

[banshyork]

The desire to make a mind-blowing game and the sky-high expectations add to the pressure.
The Rockstar one-
https://kotaku.com/inside-r...

CD Projekt Red
https://www.gamasutra.com/v...

[SyntheticForm]

Thank you, Naughty Dog, for all your hard work and dedication.

Your games are among my favorites, and one of your games is my absolute favorite.

[aquamala]

If any ND devs are reading this, go back to work!

[rainslacker]

You'd be surprised how many devs read gaming forums. There is a lot of downtime at studios. They have to spend it doing something.

[REALAS]

I know that when I work 6/12s, my overtime is fat. I actually like to do it for a couple months and pay off some bills. Been doing that for 12 years.

[mandf]

I'm a cook and work 12hr days I don't see how non physical work is any harder. I love naughty dog but all developers do this.

For that matter every industry with a crunch time does the same thing. Sensationalism at its finest.

[rainslacker]

There's this belief that no one can sustain more than 40 hour weeks. A fairly arbitrary number set in place by corporate professional time schedules where non-labor workers traditionally only worked 8 hour days(with a lunch), 5 days a week. In the course of the modern age, it's a rather recent thing. Most companies adhere to it because they don't want to pay the extra labor required to work people past 40 hours.

I do know people that would forgo overtime if it means they could work that one job, because now they're working two, which is more problematic when it comes to scheduling. Plus, if it were me, it'd break up my day and once I stop working, it's hard to get started again. But if I keep going, I can go indefinitely.

Salaried workers are a bit different, but studios do typically compensate them for their extra work through bonuses. many nowadays are even contracted to compensate for over a certain amount of time worked. In most studios, more than half the workers are contract employees who get paid by the hour anyways, and they make bank for that extra time. Many of them use that extra money for the times where they will be out of work, or just to plan on stocking up on their savings for other things.

[Casepb]

Seems like there would be no crunch if they just set appropriate release dates, or just say it will be done when it's done. I'm guessing it's not up to the developer most of the time and publishers are the ones pushing for the set date. You know it's only going to get worse with next gen games as well. Makes me wonder how long this work style can last.

[RazzerRedux]

“They do try to take care of you, providing food, encouragement to go take breaks,” said one former developer. “But for the most part, the implication is: ‘Get the job done at all costs.’”

You work for any studio the level of Naughty Dog and you have to understand what you are getting into. These guys have extremely high technical skills that could be used in a large variety of fields. They choose video game development and they choose to work at Naughty Dog. It is what it is.

[SyntheticForm]

Yep. They signed up for it basically.

Fact is these guys are the best in the business and they're in high demand. Naughty Dog has a standard - a very, very high one. People employed there or are seeking employment there know this.

They chose Naughty Dog because they're passionate what they do as individuals and what Naughty Dog does as a team. They wanted to be among the best, and when you're with the best, or the best in general, the job is naturally more challenging and more is expected of you.

[Wasabi]

@SyntheticForm

**"Fact is these guys are the best in the business and they're in high demand. Naughty Dog has a standard - a very, very high one. People employed there or are seeking employment there know this"**

Jonathan Cooper (Ex Naughty Dog Lead Animator - Left Last Year ) -

Twitter Link

https://twitter.com/GameAni...

"When I left Naughty Dog late last year they threatened to withhold my final paycheck until I signed additional paperwork stating I wouldn't share their production practices. They finally relented when I assured them that was most likely illegal..."

"The reason I left is because I only want to work with the best. That is no longer Naughty Dog. Their reputation for crunch within LA is so bad it was near impossible to hire seasoned contract game animators to close out the project. As such we loaded up on film animators"

"While super-talented, they lacked the technical/design knowhow to assemble scenes. Similarly, the design team ballooned with juniors to make up for the attrition of key roles. Every aspect of finishing this game took much longer due to the lack of game experience on the team"

"Ultimately, ND's linear games have a formula and they focus-test the shit out of them. While talented, their success is due in large part to Sony's deep pockets funding delays rather than skill alone. A more senior team would have shipped TLOU2 a year ago"

[RazzerRedux]

Disgruntled employees are nothing new. Do we need to replay what Obsidian folks said about Microsoft before MS bought them?

Is Jonathan Cooper even employed in the industry anymore? Cannot find any reference to him working anywhere.

[Wasabi]

@Razzer

**"And yet Naughty Dog continues to excel"**

That depends on what standards you are basing your comment on. Maybe by your standards Razzer, certainly not by the standards of one of the studios senior animators who cites a lack of relevant talent, extreme crunch and difficulty recruiting new talent as reasons for excessive delays on TLoU 2, which by his own reckoning would have shipped a year earlier with a more capable team.

Naughty Dogs last release was Lost Legacy in 2017 which itself was an update of a 2016's Uncharted 4, so how does the company "continue to excel" today in 2020 with no further releases and evidence of some serious troubles at the studio?

[RazzerRedux]

I adjusted my comment after looking at Cooper's info. He really isn't worth discussing at this point.

[rainslacker]

There's a lack of talent in the entire industry. Not just with ND. Every big developer is trying to pull from other industries, because that's where a lot of those people are going. It's easier to get a job in those industries, and despite those industries also having crunch, the game industry is called out for it on a routine basis, even if it's not really as bad as some places like to make it seem.

I don't doubt what Cooper said, but I question the implication that it's because of their crunch practices. Senior developers are in extreme high demand, and can go work on projects where they don't have to crunch as much due to the scope of the game. Since these senior developers are past the point of being enthralled with proving themselves, and lives change as time goes on, it's just as possible these developers want that instead of the thrill that comes with releasing bench mark products. They've done that. They don't need to prove themselves. They have something they can take pride in. They likely started a family at some point, and their priorities change. But, if any studio put out a call for a senior developer, it's unlikely they're going to find more than one or two with more than 5 years experience applying. Most people leave the industry within 10 years...if they make it that long. Attrition is the worst enemy of the industry, which is why they're trying to change this culture, and trying to get more women into gaming, because there aren't enough workers to go around.

"so how does the company "continue to excel" today in 2020 with no further releases and evidence of some serious troubles at the studio?"

So, three years is the time that developers start becoming irrelevant? Don't games take years to make? Aren't ND, with what they have shown, still shown that they are masters of their craft? They've shown game play and graphics. They've shown these animations which they are well known for, and their current delay wasn't a year or more extra. It was less than 8 months. That doesn't sound like trouble to me. that sounds like typical production time based on when we know when the game went into production. What about what ND has shown has said they are not at the top of their game still?

[Wasabi]

@rainslacker

**"So, three years is the time that developers start becoming irrelevant?"**

No one has mentioned irrelevance other than you. Please don't attempt to take my words out of context - stay on topic.

My post was in response to Razzer's (edited comment) . As he's amended what he wrote I don't think it's fair to make it the focus of debate. The only thing I will say is that personally I feel that it's a stretch to state that a studio "continues to excel" when they haven't released a product in over three years and are currently the focus of some negative publicity relating to their employment practices.

[Imalwaysright]

I don't know how it is in the US but in my country when I sign a work contract I have responsibilities but I also have rights. Crunch time wouldn't just be a case of employees having to "understand" what they got themselves into, it would be a case for the courts.

[RazzerRedux]

If ND had violated any rights then it definitely would be in the courts. But that isn't what I am talking about. I'm talking about the expectations that go along with any high paying job. High expectations and high pay typically go hand in hand.

[Imalwaysright]

And I'm saying that If I willingly sign a contract no matter what my expectations are, the rights I have as a worker granted by my country's constitution don't become void wich is why I found your comment to be bizarre. Also what I've come to realize over the years is that the gaming industry gets away with all sorts of underhanded practices so I wouldn't put past publishers pressuring game developers for their precious crunch time.

[RazzerRedux]

I believe I understand what you are saying. If the government of Portugal says you are only to work 40 hours max a week (if what I read from the link below is accurate) then that is that. However, most US workers/employers don't have laws such as these. Very little of what I read in the link below applies in the US outside of minimum wage and minimum working age. So you may find this "bizarre" but this is just how it is in the US.

https://www.expatica.com/pt...

[Imalwaysright]

So there isn't a legal limit of maximum hours you guys can work in a day, week or month? Damn that's tough and yes there are some things about the US that we find to be bizarre but I'm certain that it goes both ways.

[RazzerRedux]

No, no limits. I'm a software developer (non-gaming) and I've been through "crunch" a few times myself. I once worked 40 hours over the course of one weekend prior to release after averaging 60 hours a week for a year. But that is an extreme case and certainly not the norm. Most full-time jobs are 40 hours with occasional overtime.

[ShadowWolf712]

The thing is, this is actually brought up during the interview process and, by Schrier's own admission, nobody at ND even ASKS people to crunch. They can leave after their normal workday whenever they choose. If they decide to stay, they're fed by the company, and encouraged to take a break whenever they feel they need it.

Honestly, this hardly sounds like a company that "doesn't care about the human cost" as he suggests.

[extermin8or]

look closely at the contract it will state in it things like "extra hours to get work done may be required and are expected in addition to contracted working hours" assuming ou are contracted for specific hours otherwise it will state "longer shifts and weekend work may be required from time to time" or in the case of a developer "as release of a product approaches" etc. These clauses are common. Obviously that contract can't contract you to work more hours than the law's maximum. However that doesn't mean they can't ask you to as an exception to the average or you can't willingly do so. The expectations of your colleagues to get the work done regardless of how long it takes isn't a legally binding matter and isn't something you could sue about unless a manager explicitly told you "you must work more than *legally permitted max in country*"

[rainslacker]

Workers in the US have similar rights. They're not quite as in favor of the employees as you see in the EU. Won't say it's all benefit for the employer either, but there are similar labor laws here in the US. There are different types of employment, and not all employment is a contract, but rather what is called right-to-work. Basically an hourly employee. You show up, you get paid. Sometimes employers will have other benefits for those employees, but those types of employees are still working based on the companies rules. Contract employees can vary in what they're required to work, but some states are starting to enact overtime for salaried employees. It's after 45 or 50 hours depending on the state. Some companies already compensate for this...like most devs do.

There are contract hourly employees, and they generally clean up during crunch. A graphics artist can make about $22-25 an hour, but overtime is 1.5X that. Work 80 hours for 3 weeks, and that's a pretty big paycheck. When I was a game tester, I was working 80-100 hours a week at $14/hr. That $14 was pretty small compared to my prior IT jobs, but I had other motivations, and the overtime I was making more in a week than I did with a salary. Now, as salary, I'm not really required to work extra hours, but we are expected to provide technical support, which can lead to overtime. I wouldn't say we ever have crunch, as what we do doesn't demand it, but sometimes we have to work when other devs are having crunch and rely on our tools. I try to put myself there with them, so it helps make them feel like I really care, because i do care about my work and helping them make the best game they can. It's a pride issue for me, and from my experience, they also take pride in what they're making.

It depends on the reason for crunch though. Sometimes it can be oppressive. I talk about that in another post so won't repeat it here.

[Batnut00]

No, no. “It is what it is” isn’t a valid excuse to justify long periods of crunch. You can achieve this level of quality without putting your developers through high amounts of stress which isn’t good for them both physically or mentally. Crunch doesn’t somehow equate into high quality.

[ShadowWolf712]

They do, actually. From the article:

"Crunch culture at Naughty Dog isn’t a secret. The studio is open about this mentality in interviews with new hires, and its managers deliberately seek out perfectionists in art, design, engineering, and all of the other disciplines that make games happen. The type of people Naughty Dog wants to hire are the type of people who will willingly stay late at the office in order to make their games better—the type of people who would take the time to make sacks of grain deflate when you shoot them. At Naughty Dog, nobody asks the developers to crunch."

[RazzerRedux]

Perfectionists. Sounds about right.

[Batnut00]

This doesn’t prove anything. Again, nothing about this suggests they need to crunch in the first place to accomplish what they do. If that were the case, every game would turn out great but that isn’t the reality. Naughty Dog wants developers essentially willing to work themselves into an early grave, because no matter how passionate you think they are, they’re still people and this shit is absolutely not healthy.

[ShadowWolf712]

Naughty Dog wants perfectionists willing to get the job done. Key word: WILLING. Hence why they bring it up in interviews. But on top of that, if you're not? Too tired, prior obligations? You can leave with zero issues.

At some point, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY comes into play here. At some point, they need to be willing to say "yeah, I overworked myself and I need to take better care of myself" instead of trying to externalize what happened and blame someone else... even as many of them move on to companies with just as much reputation for Crunch Time without the options or good treatment ND gave them.

I'm just saying when you got "burned out" by ND and then went to work for EA, Microsoft Game Studios, or Rockstar? You're probably not as burned out or disgusted by these practices as you'd like people to believe.

[rainslacker]

I don't think he said that as if he didn't understand what was expected of him. I think he was just trying to describe how it felt working there. You don't generally get a job at ND if you don't understand how the industry works, and it's not like crunch is uncommon. An intern coming in would be top of their class, and probably be very dedicated to working whatever they could to show their worth.

[hangdang]

>Enters an industry known for crunch
>ND even tells employees up front that there will be crunch
>ok i agree
>Crunch time comes
>I don't want to crunch :(

Crybaby Schrier never misses the opportunity to make a mountain out of a molehill

[knickstr]

Isn't Jason Schreier the one who mass banned people on Twitter for asking about the gaming journalist bias against anyone who isn't progressive?

[RazzerRedux]

Not sure about that, but he is a huge Bernie Sanders supporter and actively calls for unionizing game development which I personally think would kill the industry. So he is definitely writing from a political activist point of view. Nothing really wrong with that, but it is a biased viewpoint.

[extermin8or]

It would destroy the game industry nothing would ever get finished because the only way to avoid crunch is have no deadlines....

[Atom666]

Yep. To be fair, he'll block you for just about anything.

Funny post the other day from Kotaku- Despite Schreier's crusade for workers rights at other companies, his own employer is just now, in 2020, deciding to compensate salaried staff for working extra hours from home.

Maybe clean up your own messes before telling others what to do...

[StormLegend]

Crunch comes to any studio trying to release a ambitious game. Doesn't always mean it's a bad thing. ND, Rockstar, CDPR and so on expect quality.

[FITSniper]

All software development has these times.

[Christopher]

A lot of this article talks about the employees making this choice to do this, not about it being forced.

I also think this article highlights certain things for effect, not for fact. For example, the designers that left were picked off to join Microsoft Game Studios and R*, both companies known for crunch ethics similar to Naughty Dog. Some of them have even returned in 2019 to the currently unnamed studio working out of the same building as Naughty Dog.

Crunch sucks, but this article presents a title and premise that really is leading the person rather than anything else.

How much longer can it last?

Well, at least until the employees stop subjecting themselves to it, which by the responses seems to be them doing it way more than the company demanding it.

[Thundercat77]

Every company that strives for greatness crunches. This is not something new and it has been like that for decades.

No one there is forced. They are getting paid and compensated very well. If you cannot deal with it, you just look for another job.

Trying to hit Naughty Dog for this? Why haven't the other studios doing the same receives these critics? Double standards and just wanting to hit ND with something negative now that they are going to release their master peace.

[Einhander1971]

The trouble is games are announced far to early in development.

[windblowsagain]

10-12 hours a day is too long to start with for any job. sorry but it is.

Countries with less work hours enjoy more meaningful lives outside of work and enjoy life more. There has to be a balance.

I hate money and hate the way debt is basically forced upon you from day 1.

But don't fret. A massive asteroid is coming 2026 and will decimate the earth. Debts will be erased just like the trillions that america lost and then got rid of with 9/11.

[RosweeSon]

Why else do you go to work other than to get the job done it ain’t a holiday camp. 10-12 hour days oh the torture, try roughing it in a sweat shop for 18 hours a day and barely a £1.
They probably have to work Saturdays too 😢 🎻 😂

[Mulletino]

Zzzzz

[extermin8or]

Crunch will always exist to some extent. As you get to the end of any project there will always be extra improvements you can make last minute or extra bits to add and polish that can applied. This is true of anything that has a deadline it's just the nature of how games are developed that makes it a more noticeable thing. For films it's the producers and editors and directors going over scenes, editing stuff cutting and adding scenes into the film to see which version they think is best so it's only a few people that end up doing that for games however it ends up the whole team because of the multidisciplinary collaboration required to build the finished product at every stage. As long as they assign themselves deadlines this will occur and as long as devs want to actually finish and release stuff they will set deadlines.

[Vanfernal]

Any job with a deadline is prone to crunch and overtime. Not saying it's ideal but 12 hours days is not exactly torture.

[dragonopt1]

They interview and tell you how it’s going to be... then you leave and complain..

[AK91]

IIRC a noteworthy dev (forgot who) said that whilst crunch was a horrible thing it was mostly self imposed pressure hardworking devs put on themselves to make a truly unique and ambitious game.

[Veneno]

Welcome to America. Employers aren't satisfied until every ounce of exhaustion is dripped dry from you.

[moomoo319]

Im in finance, regularly work 12 hour days and people work on weekends too. Naughty dog is a prestigious, high paying job with im sure great bonuses. This is a little dramatic.

[MadLad]

I've worked 60+ hour weeks years back. I don't care if you're smashing concrete all day, or sitting in a chair. Nobody should be putting in 12+ hour days 5-7 days a week, for months kn end; it's mentally draining.

All of the comments from people saying "it is what it is" is the exact reason why I'm all for unionization in the games industry.

[Sono421]

Oh give me a break "I don't care if you're smashing concrete all day, or sitting in a chair."

You can't be serious, the two are incomparable. Not to mention 12 hours is not long at all, that's completely normal, my brother works the barges and he works 70 hours a week every week, and isn't paid overtime until after 70 hours, it's hard physical work but he loves his job. Where I work we also have drivers who do 12 hours every single day anywhere from 5 to 6 days a week, the 6 days a week is the Driver CHOOSING to come in an extra day for OT, and these aren't even my company, these are outside companies that deliver to us, but our drivers also work 12 hours daily for 5-6 days... again the 6th day being CHOSEN OT. Quit acting like 12 hour days and 70 hour weeks are just so insufferable, because they're not ESPECIALLY when you're literally just sitting there the entire time.

BTW anyone who wants union jobs has clearly never worked one, I haven't but we have 3 guys at our job who all say the same thing, Union Jobs are like opposite day everyday, they say their managers continuously told them to slow down, don't do so much work, it's like they intentionally don't want to be efficient, and as a company that's clearly not a good business model, not to mention they told me about how if they ever had a dispute, instead of it just being between them and the other coworker they would have to go get their union rep speak for each of them and have it settled that way, instead of just having some manager punish the guilty party, it sounds bonkers to me.

[MadLad]

"My brother works 70 hours a week, and doesn't get overtime until after those 70 hours. He loves it"

Damn. It must be awesome being his boss.

[Sono421]

Damn it must be awesome living in a bubble. His boss is quite literally the pilot of the boat, working same hours as him, except obviously he's the pilot of the boat instead of a deck hand, or mate.

[frostypants]

Welcome to every major programming project ever.

[leoms]

Yet when companies don't reveal release dates people are mad. There is no way to make everyone happy.

[Petebloodyonion]

There's a huge difference between working crunch time 2 weeks during a certain period of the year and working 80+ hours for several months.

[Mr Marvel]

As long as money can be made, someone will do it.

[Dirtnapstor]

Oh Jason, give us all a break. Aside from the fact that EVERY dev team goes through a crunch period, there is a reason why ND “crunches” as they do, if you want to be the best, you have to invest your all. ND does this. That’s why they are one of the top players in the vast sea of developers. And I will never believe that any employee is forced to do their job at ND. Fact of the matter is, you (an employee) cannot produce the quality ND does if you hate your job or are being coerced into performing. It would show, and we would have heard about this sort of thing years ago. Take care of your employees and they will take care of you.
The most successful individuals in the world have at least one thing in common... they have a passion for what they do beyond financial motivation. They want to be the best, so they apply themselves 110% all day everyday.
You don’t become top dog by half-assing it.

[King_Noctis]

So in other word, you support crunching? Do you think the lives of the developers are disposable?

[The Wood]

How did you pull that conclusion from his comment. People are acting like this isn't some 365 crunch. There are so many industries and institute's that have crunch periods be it year end financials and targets or project completion. Why people on here are going on like they actually give a damn about the plight of developers is not only disingenuous but ridiculous too. Gamers care more about the end product than the process. Why this all of a sudden. . . .lol

[The Wood]

Sorry. .like this IS* some 365 crunch.

[Petebloodyonion]

Reading some of the comments on this topic makes my blood boil!
Honestly, I'm ashamed for some of you that would call themselves passionate about video games and treat this matter lightly like there's no story, the author as an agenda, hate against ND, nobody is forcing you, etc...

To theses ppl, I say take five minutes to reads about the subject and understand that it's well documented.
http://letmegooglethat.com/...

And if you are still not convinced that just a little thing how about a study on the subject that shows that 2/3 of the worker are working 70 hours during crunch time and that 1/3 of then aren't paid.
https://www.gamesindustry.b...

Or go read the interview with YOSHINORI ONO (the guy behind Streetfighters 4) called: Capcom Overworks Ono, Says Famous Street Fighter Producer
https://www.cinemablend.com...

And if you want more horror stories then treat yourself to the work-life of Amy Hennig at Naughty Dog
https://www.gamesindustry.b...

And after all of that,

if you still feel that defending the industry for the sake of a game you want, talking about who's gonna win a fabled console war, etc. is more important then the real health issues of the ppl creating our games and dreams, then what can I say? (There are tons of things that I could say but ill keep things civilized)

Quick question:
Do you believe that, in this Important Crunch time, measures and steps are taken regarding covid19 like asking employees to stay home, take a day off if they have symptoms or do we still value the work ethics of ppl that show courage and dedications by coming to work when they have a cold?

[dennigo]

there is no way to find the truth here, there will always be at least 1 unhappy employee and there will always be another side of the story. it's all speculation until an actual investigation is started don't click these stories!!!!

[Segata]

I dunno if now is the time to release this game anyway. I know the situation is not exactly the same but I recall many films reshooting parts to take out the WTC and some games were canceled/altered (MGS2) in 2001/2002. A delay might be best if the situation keeps at this rate.

[TheEroica]

It's a completely unnecessary game too... :( the first was a masterpiece and we didn't need a second game, but that's where this hobby stops being art and reveals itself as just another money project.

If naughty dog has the best designers and gaming engineers on the planet why am I still being offered uncharted games and sequels to games that didn't need one? Make something new....

[Butters360]

IF could code on code on ND's level, sign me the fuck up! Crunch is and will forever remain a part of the work force culture. It's not exclusive to game developers. Workaholics come in droves. No one is holding a gun to their heads .

[The_Sage]

Crunch is stupid. I'd rather they show the game later in development and take their time.

[mysterym]

The corporate apologist's are out in full force I see.

Putting this much pressure on people is unacceptable, but hey at least you get your game even if people are in hospital.

Had this been any other than a Sony studio, this thread would have been completely different, with boycott messages everywhere.

[The Wood]

I'd counter that by saying 90 percent of the new care bears don't give a flying ### about the life of developers but do now all of a sudden because it's a Sony dev. Goes both ways. An article has been put in here further up which shows this practice happens when deadlines are trying to be met by rockstar and cdpr. Not condoning it just laughing at the faux concern.

[Gazondaily]

"I'd counter that by saying 90 percent of the new care bears don't give a flying ### about the life of developers but do now all of a sudden because it's a Sony dev. "

Lol! My days...that Sony violin. If Playstation created covid-19 you lot would be injecting yourselves with it 😂

At one point do you think posting "Goes both ways" is fooling anyone now bruv? 🤣

[Good-Smurf]

What's wrong with this they got paid very well for crunch and weren't forced to do it.
There's always better way to crunch or not to crunch at all but then all it takes are few or bunch of bugs fixing and then you have to optimize on top of it and with the case of 2018 God of War they need few months to fix it and that's exactly what ND going through right now you can fine tune things add things but then you ran into bugs kinda like patch that supposed to fix and improve something but it also add bugs as well.
Developing games at this level are barely smooth and carefree process especially when you're the one pushing anything to the next level.
So if you can wait few months to a year of another delay just that they don't have to crunch then go ahead vote on it.

[mezati99]

dropping by just to point out Jason Schreier is a fucking pussy

[PCgamer98]

Welcome to triple a game development.

[Xavi4K]

awful....

[shammgod]

kotaku beating this drum again

[Bleucrunch]

The of a video game is to have fun and enjoy the experience. For those who don't know I will say it again and again,

"The Last Of Us" to me is the GREATEST VIDEO GAME OF ALL TIME ON THE PLANET EARTH IN THE MILKY WAY GALAXY OF THE UNIVERSE.

I have finished the campaign nine times and will do it for a tenth before Part 2 releases. I believe Part 2 will be a different experience and look forward to playing it.

However, one of the reason why I love that game so much is because of Naughty Dog and them doing their due diligence to develop these games. I would rather the people behind the game sacrifice their health in order to develop games, that seems counter productive and defeats the purpose.

Naughty Dog should definitely manage their employees and help them, I love that game but folks getting sick during development is something we as gamers should always be concerned about. Don't need folks potentially getting sick or worse because of their job. Especially since being a game developer is not even in the realm of worlds most dangerous jobs.

[GreenDragonCVR]

"Sacrificing their health, relationships, and personal lives at the altar of the game": sounds like they are making some good shit, shit they are pouring their souls into, that generations will remember and their grandchildren will be proud of. I bet the team working on Sea of Theives had great labor practices.

[dmonee]

I guess you need to be in the industry to understand. First thing that comes to my mind is, “why not just push the game back a few months or however long you need without beating down your employees