Will Xbox Series X games be held back by previous Xbox hardware?

People are scared that games won't look good on the Xbox Series X because it won't have any exclusives at launch. That's silly. Silly AF.

[Kribwalker]

Exactly. It’s like having a cheap laptop with a crappy graphics card playing games at minimum spec that another guy with a $3000 rig and a RTX2080 in there playing the same game on ultra

[RpgSama]

I know the games will look amazing between generations, the issue I have with this approach is that those exclusive games where gameplay would be built around advanced physics and AI will not exist because that's something that cannot just be turned on and off (if the gameplay is based around that), graphically you can scale up and down within generations, but those features, which are the features I'm most anxiously waiting from the next generation will be definitely held back or even worse, not happen at all, just the same game with higher frame rate and prettier graphics.

This generation we saw how physics based gameplay or advancements in AI was basically non-existent, with this approach the first couple of years of next gen will be the same.

[Ashunderfire86]

That was already done with the PC version of games, and the only big change if the PC version of a game gets Mod support.

[timotim]

Not necessarily. Things like AI and physics can be turned off between generations...or at least limited depending on the hardware. No one is going to be making so much of a physics based game this earlier in the generation that will impact gameplay that much. Most of the physics will come in the form of the environment, which definitely can be tuned liked shown in this video here...
https://www.youtube.com/wat...
Instead of complex calculation which the SX is certainly capable of, it could simply be limited in base Xbox One by comparison.

AI can also be adjusted between hardware. Nothing stopping foes in Halo Infinite from having more complex patterns of thinking on SX vs what we're already use to in Halo 5's AI as an example. You are limiting the creativity of these developers and what the consoles will be capable of

EDIT: In terms of trying...it will NEVER happen this early on in a generation. Thats just how it goes. Physics thats work that tightly into gameplay is something that will start to show up as the generation matures...certainly not at launch. Doesn't mean that their cant be impressive physics in cut scenes and environments as an example that then just becomes scripted on lesser hardware or even static...doesn't mean SX cant have games with impressive physics while they tune it down for base Xbox One...

[RpgSama]

@timotim

"No one is going to be making so much of a physics based game this earlier in the generation that will impact gameplay that much."

And this is exactly my issue, with this approach we can be sure that nobody will even try.

[Zeref]

They can literally turn on and off features like advanced AI and Physics for the respective console. That's not a problem at all. Cross gen titles from 360/PS3 Era did this.

[Livingthedream]

They can take advantage of the hardware, it can be done on PC,so it can be done on console as well

[NXFather]

So you mean Sony won't do anything revolutionary in the fist couple of years with AI or Physics. Otherwise what is the problem. Microsoft are who they are. Who don't know that by now.

[NXFather]

Why is it all on Microsoft's shoulders? Sony is the only real champion here and innovator. Are you an Xbox fanboy or Xbox preferred gamer.

[NXFather]

Sony is the leading horse in this race. Where is your head at boy? It only really matter what Sony do. If Sony fail we fail.

[NXFather]

You seem to have an identity crisis taking place right now!

[NXFather]

Since the Physics and AI is pretty much nonexistent this gen it won't be hard to turn it off.

[Kumakai]

Lol. They said no one would support the one X either and it ended up being heavily supported. It’s easy to scale render settings and LOD in almost every game engine and they wouldn’t implement ssd, gddr6 and ray tracing in new hardware if they couldn’t scale it up and down. You’re just hating bro. At 12 TFLOPS it will hardly be a budge laptop. That’s up with high cards now.

And just so you know ps5 is doing the same thing. Same architecture structure as ps4. That’s how their backward compatibility is going to work with ps4 and why it will need special modes for the SOC to run old emulations of older consoles. The next gen consoles will actually be treated more like the mid cycle refreshes... but with a way bigger hardware upgrade.

[froy402]

No ps5 is not doing the same thing, ps5 exclusive games will not be capable of playing on ps4, ps4 games will be able to play on ps5 aka (backwards)-compatible.

Xbox series x exclusives will be capable to play on xbox one aka LAME, definition - (crapbox that has no exclusives).

[bluefox755]

Except that most modern games on the cheap laptop with crappy graphics are virtually unplayable, even on the lowest settings. Don't believe me? Try it.

[Donnie81]

Games are very scalable these days

[babadivad]

Not sure why people are making a huge deal out of this. Literally every console gen is hamstrung by the previous one for at least a year. Most 3rd party games are cross-gen and don't start taking advantage of the new gen until the install base increases.

[SkatterBrain]

i feel with all the power levels this gen all over the place that games next gen will be like PC Games Releasing on Differnt settings

Switch 1.0 Teraflops Very Low Settings
Xbox One 1.3 Teraflops Low Settings
PS4 1.8 Teraflops like Medium settings
PS4 Pro 4.2 Teraflops High Settings
Xbox One X 6.0 Teraflops Very High Settings
PS5 9.2 Teraflops Ultra Settings
Xbox Series X 12.0 Teraflops Max Settings

[SkatterBrain]

Seriously disagreeing is like being Blind, play witcher 3 or crysis or metro exodus on pc and turn these settings on and they match with the consoles power , im A Playstation Fanboy but i can see the truth i admit my brothers Xbox One X running in native 4k beats the PS4 Pros Upscaling and it shows sometimes

[tontontam0]

I actually bought my GPU for framerate and sometimes I turn on raytracing(30-60fps) when I play on my large (60hz only TV) I might as well turn on raytracing and enjoy the eyecandy because my TV can only display 60fps.

On my "1080p" computer monitor, to reach 144fps I even have to lower the settings to medium settings, I set my games to console quality graphics just to reach that 144fps.

I don't know why console gamers are so misinformed, we did not buy a high end gpu just for ultra graphics. Actually at one point I knew a lot of people who bought high to mid end gpu just to play "OVERWATCH @ 240fps" some even crank their settings to low where the graphics is slightly inferior to console versions just to hit that 240fps.

If there is an alternative option for us to hit that framerate I believe some of us pc gamers would choose the cheapest option. Unfortunately the only option we have is to buy high end "Overpriced" desktops.

[NXFather]

Well since these games will be made on earth then yeah it will be fine. The games on playstation will look great but, both machines will have games in this generation. Now ofc you can't miss something you never had. You can however cry over something you wish you could have.

[Jin_Sakai]

What’s silly AF is windowscentral.com trying to defend this.

Having a game built to run on a 1.3TF machine is going to cripple next gen games no matter how you look at it. There’s going to be far more cut backs than resolution and framerate.

[timotim]

The major mistake that youre making though is assuming they are STARTING with the original Xbox One and then tries to scale up, instead of starting with whatever they have to work with for the Series X and then scale down. What you assume is NOT the case.

Windows Central is defending this because they understand how it works, while you do not. Echo gave the perfect analogy earlier...did the Switch version of The Witcher 3 hold back a top of the line PC version??? Now we all know the answer to this, but why not though? Its because the top of the line PC version was the hardware used used to make the game in mind...what the Switch got was a downgraded version of that...same can be said for all console versions of the game...they were just varied degrees of downgrades from the high end PC version. So if we look at the SX as the high end PC and the Switch as the base Xbox One, it should now be clearer for you to understand...even though something tells me you'll continue with the same baseless argument.

[Stanjara]

Yes and no.
If you make a game for PS4... you will need... lets say 3 years. Depending on your engine, you will then need another year to make upgrades for PS5, BUT you will need more time, incentive, headache and wizardry to make that game run on the Switch.
If you do it all from the start in the same time, your game development will not take 3 years but more, and you will start to cut corners from the start to make it run on the Switch.
So your whole idea of connected worlds with portals with an ssd, can go to waste cause of notorious loading on Xbone, and so you are changing original concept of the game, from the start.

I'm very loose with all of this but you get the point.

[timotim]

@Stanjara

Take a look at this video. This is what Im talking about. Both launched around the same time, was in development at the same time but launch for 2 different consoles in 2 different generations. The baseline project was Xbox One...they then took that baseline and tried their best to make Xbox 360 fit within that as best it could and these are the results
https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[rainslacker]

It works like that for graphics. Not for game design. There is a difference, and it's the game design that is the problem. Graphica are easy to scale. AI patterns, or balancing of objects on screen and their behaviors, and the way data is processed(HDD vs SSD access speed expectations) can have a huge effect on advancing game design.

If all you want is a prettier current gen, with this gen being most a prettier last gen, then sure, support forward compatibility. I just hope MS doesbt mandate that devs have to do such a thing. If MS wants to do it in their own software, then awesome. All that talk about how great all these new studios are going to make them is for naught, because theyll be restricted to last gen designs. Which may be the case anyways if MS supports PC.

[Realms]

You people are crazy the Witcher 3 is not the same game on the Switch as it is on a high end PC, fundamentally many concessions will be made to game design if MS wants to continue to support the xbox one as they have stated hamstringing the xseries. Oh and you are assuming third party developers will want to do this the Witcher 3 is only on the Switch because CD Projekt Red decided it was worth the time to do this not all developers will choose this option. What many have been pointing out isn't about graphics or fidelity but game design which will limit game developers that will have to keep in mind the xbox one's limitations.

[AngelicIceDiamond]

Tell that to third party devs who don't abandon current gen systems yet. Assassins Creed: Ragnarok and BF6 will most likely be on PS4 and X1.

[Sophisticated_Chap]

@ Jin

It just goes to show how little of an understanding you have when it comes to game development. If you were into PC gaming, you would easily understand why making a game work across a range of hardware options will have no effect on a game, running on hardware at the highest end of the spectrum.

[Atom666]

Like we continue to hear from devs, they'll scale down, not scale up.

Frank O'connor braved the waters over at Era and explained it:

"Most big publishers are building not just for cross generational hardware but for PC too - which makes scaling performance within those constraints but maxxing out at top spec, is already in the cards. And smaller indie devs who don't have the budget or concepts that need to "fill" those upper end specs aren't affected one way or another since they aren't makreting or designing towards perf - but even then they'll geteasy wins at the top end and plenty of very high perf at the bottom.

Our new engine is designed with those ranges in mind, so that there's no compromise on Series X or very hgigh end PCs and no compromise on creating amazing experiences at the bottom end."

[sibyl1]

Like we continue to hear from devs, they'll scale down, not scale up.

If their not scaling up that means they are programming for the lowest option. Dont you see what your saying is they aren't going to fully utilize the new hardware because they have to be able to scale down to the lowest hardware instead of being able to scale up into a new generation.

[Atom666]

No. Literally the opposite.

If you scale up, that means you develop for the lowest specs and then just "scale the game up" to make improvements. Just commonsense should tell you how inefficient that would be.

Instead, you devote your resources to maximize your game at the highest spec, and then "scale it down" to run on weaker platforms.

Practically every dev sans Nintendo will be doing this already if they release on PC.

[sibyl1]

Atom666

No, you can make a game build for a base xbox run on on an x with better graphics. You CAN"T make a game with super advanced ai or a 1000 enemies built for a next gen console with Ryzen run on a old base Jaguar.

Quit trying to twist the truth to defend Microsoft, if your fine with your new games tied to the base xbox so be it thats your choice, but quit trying to pretend that it's not going to hold things back.

[Atom666]

You could just read what devs say about it if you don't believe me. You could start by the one I literally quoted for you.

Or use your own common sense. You know how you scale down a game that has "1000" characters on screen? You limit the number of characters on screen. Same with AI. Look at the Shadow of Mordor games from just this gen. When the 360/PS3 ports were made, they couldn't handle the AI systems. You know what they did? They "scaled it down" and took those features out.

Look at changes made to games like Titanfall or Horizon 2 for other examples.

This isn't anything new. We've literally seen this for years on PC, which you obviously know about since you're also a PC gamer, right?

Instead of taking a realistic and educated look at technology available, you're hell bent on arguing clear and easily demonstrated truths. Good luck to you.

All I can say is that you're in for some serious disappointment next gen.

[sibyl1]

"You limit the number of characters on screen. Same with AI."

Then it's not even the same game....

A BR with 1000 people is not the same game as BR with 100 people. A city with a huge map populated with a thosand NPC's is not the same as a small map with 100 NPC's. Quit kidding yourself get real.

You say use your common sense, but I am the one using common sense your the one who is just trying to defend Microsoft decision. Instead of going on the defense just own up to it.

[Atom666]

Stop making everything fit into your imaginary console war nonsense. It's petty.

Games scale all the time. You don't seem to refute any of that, but instead try to attack with fanboy bs.

Look at the ports we're seeing on Switch or PSVR right now as an easy example. How about racing games and shooters that have to scale down for consoles? Or any game currently running on PC and console.

If you don't want to look at facts, history, devs own comments, or commonsense then I can't help you.

I hope you enjoy your console of choice.

[sibyl1]

Nice, resorting to insults?

All your talking about is graphical scaling, do you not understand that there are other aspects to game development than just graphics?

[Atom666]

Nope, just pointing out how you consistently label any arguments in favor of this approach as merely "defending Microsoft." Don't start playing the victim.

You've yet to identify that game that is only possible on console. If anything, you could argue that I'm defending PC here. For some reason, you seem to think that miracle advancements are coming because of the inclusion of an ssd on a console.

Whether its simple AI downgrades like we've seen in cross gen ports this gen (like the examples I gave you in that other thread) or limiting characters, models, physics, FOV, FPS, resolution, etc., scaling down occurs all the time. That's just fact.

This is easily seen in racing games right now. Not only can you limit the number of cars, the FOV, the FPS and other graphical settings, but you can also adjust the physics, driver AI, and systems AI. We will undoubtedly eventually reach a point where it's not feasible to scale down without sacrificing too much, but that will take a long time to get here. Those are actual examples and not just theoretical games you rely on to stretch to make your point.

Your entire premise is really just that console generations have always done it this way, therefore they should continue doing it. Otherwise it's only about how poor MS won't sell as many systems. You'll excuse me for not caring about the latter. As for thinking the old way doesn't need to change, here are some common statements we hear every new gen. Think about how this approach addresses all of them:

"MS always abandons hardware at the end of a generation."
"The game was rushed to meet the launch."
"Games (like Knack and Ryse) were decent for launch games.
"The (low) sales were OK considering the low install base."

They are just proposing to continue to support their old hardware for at least one additional year, yet you act like doing so will completely eliminate all video game advancements in the future. Those PS5-only games that are rumored will 100% be achievable on lower spec'd machines. Hell, the only one announced so far is also announced for PC.

For the 95%+ of devs already on console, scaling is nothing new. They will scale all manners of their games to fit what platforms that they choose and for what makes sense in the market.

PC games don't release exclusively for the newest card. Mobile games don't release exclusively for the newest phone. Instead of trying so hard to find fault in this approach because it's now MS doing it, take a step back and see that's it's not only feasible and easily achieved, but it's also in everyone's best interest.

But if getting the last word is important, go for it. Enjoy the PS5. I know I will.

[Ausbo]

There are 1.3 tflop PCs out there too. So are they holding everything back that comes to PC?

[RangerWalk267]

Your picture looks very familiar. Oh yeah, it's the same font as last generation. They should have put that in a press conference. Oh yeah, they did. Their innovation continues to blow me away

[timotim]

No. In fact, if we are being truthful...Series X will only HELP previous gen Xbox hardware to play these games better.

Whoever thinks that their wont be a noticeable difference between SX and One S is a person that is invested in the console wars and can not be trusted anyway. However, SX will help One S reach its best visuals (not framerate unfortunately) to date.

[Thundercat77]

Of course they will. Imaging making Read Dead Redemption 2 trying to fit old generation hardware.

You cannot definitely get the best of the new hardware trying to also comply with the old hardware capabilities.

You will have Xbox One games enhanded to play on Xbox Series X just like right now they are enhanded to play in Xbox One X.

[timotim]

Thankfully, thats not how it works.

Right now, 343 Industries is producing Halo Infinite. They are pushing the game as far as a top end PC and SX can handle in terms of visuals, performance, geometry, effects, physics, AI etc and agreeing on a baseline for those platforms. Anything below that baseline will receive a downgrade in those same categories to get them to run on current gen and below recommended PC specs. Thus on high end PC and SX, it is the game as intended, while on anything below that, it is the game with compromises once compared to those high end PCs and SX. This ensures that Microsoft and team Xbox isn't leaving anyone behind and can maximize their sales and playerbase for the game while providing next gen gamers with a truly next gen experience.

Why sell the game to a million gamers on day one when you can sell to over 100 million??? This is one of the dumbest arguments Ive heard yet. Some of you want to knock Microsoft for supporting their player base...those that stuck with them or joined them through this generation...why would they do that? But more importantly, why would you want them to do that?!?! Microsoft has already said they are getting rid of generations...where you buy a new console and effectively start over with library, accessories, network, accolades etc...this is them sticking to that word...how is this a bad thing...

[Sophisticated_Chap]

@ Thundercat77

That is simply not true. Go onto youtube, and check out the 4K PC gameplay and graphics analysis for RDR2 on PC. This is a game that is available on the base PS4(1.84 Tflops) and OG Xbox One(1.3 Tflops), but the graphical settings for this game are so demanding, when set to 'Ultra Settings' @ 4K, that even the most powerful graphics card on the market, the RTX 2080 TI with 13.4 Tflops of processing power, can't run the game at 4K/60fps.

This analogy applies to the different variants of console hardware. The only real difference between consoles and PC these days, when it comes to games, is that consoles have no options to adjust the graphics settings, as the developers have the settings already pre-determined, so that the game runs the best that they can get it on that specific console hardware.

[Kiwi66]

Or you will have a game designed to run on the series x and scaled down to also play on one x, crazy i know

[i3eyond the Circle]

There’s no exclusive game with any real active online community or components for the PS4 so I understand why this concept of not jumping out the gate leaving people behind is mind boggling.

I don’t think any developer has had the time to build a proprietary engine built only for SSD, Gddr6 and RTX and are ready for a 2020 launch.. that’s stupid so why not give people the “want” to see a cross gen game and it’s peak and push them to upgrade over “hey upgrade right now for something that you most likely could’ve played on our older system”

The first phase of next gen appeal will be the refresh rates, high res textures, ultra settings and Rtx.. all which will be better on the XSX... and that’s why I’ll be in line day one and so will others.

So the answer is NO... not right now. For the first couple years there won’t be a game or exclusive from EITHER CAMP that wouldn’t be able to scale.. so if there is ps5 only games.. that’s solely a disservice to you and gamers.

[Fishy Fingers]

Only first party will 'have' to support current gen and they will receive the resources or out source the last gen builds of games.

No one is stupid enough to invest money in the best hardware they can only to gimp it.

[Stanjara]

Guess that they don't have next gen games ready for at least 2 years. Those new titles that are will be upscaleble, but that is the same as playing Ghost of Tsushima on PS5.

[Eldyraen]

Technically? Yes. Going next gen only would allow all assets to be higher polygon count than if they’re released on the one S still. And that’s just the easy upgrade.

That said, if the Series X utilized tessellation than it could also circumvent that. Most assets are suitably high poly enough already imo, so tessellation could be limited more towards what really “need it”.

Most other next gen upgrades can be utilized well on the Series S with crossgen not being an issue however—like PC usually gets. Textures, lighting/shadows, draw distance, performance, etc are all next gen upgrades that are naturally easier to scale anyways.

Physics, raytracing, etc are features that can simply be disabled on lower powered platforms as well.

So it’s not like it’s not an upgrade still.

I still wish we had 1-2 true next gen first party Exclusive titles though. It’s just makes going to new consoles feel more special to me.

[Shikoku]

If their idea is to really have no exclusive for the system then there is no need to buy an xbone series x if you already own an xbonex.

[Knightofelemia]

I'd rather buy the next gen console and the game then buy a cross platform gen game The Evil Within on PS3 is basically a pile of shit to play but runs better on PS4. The cross gen games do not hold back the new hard ware its the games built for the new hardware trying to play on the old hardware that is the issue. Sometimes you run into new games that just don't speak well with the old tech like The Evil Within. Also with newer gen games on older machines tend to sell poorly because people are playing said game on the newer machine they just dropped all the cash on. And people tend to wait after saving the cash for the new console usually that game is cheaper by the time they buy that cross gen game. Yes GTA V is a game that has shown that cross gen games can do well but do you think Rockstar is going to dump resources into adding the casino the Diamond Heists the other missions to the PS3 and 360 no because by now most people have a PS4 and Xbox1. All GTA V did was slowly transition people from old tech to new tech.

[knickstr]

It's not about the graphics alone though. You can always scale things up to make things look better. The difference in the power is going to be the physics and assets on the screen at the same time. If you have to develop things for the old console it will hold it back in that sense.

[TheColbertinator]

So do graphics matter again?

[xX1NORM1Xx]

i doubt it, i imagine cross gen games will just look and preform better on series x and games that require series x specific hardware such as heavy CPU usage games just won't come to xbox one anyway...

[_LarZen_]

They will and the author of the article is mentioning it tiny bit before he continues his tantrum. The fact is that yes games will be held back. Sure the games will scale to take advantage of the extra hardware with higher resolution,fps, textures etc. But core structure and how new modern games can now be made will be held back.

[timotim]

You're not providing anything meaningful to the discussion without giving examples of what these "core structures" are. Thats the only way we can converse on if its possible or not. And for the record, you are like some others in here speaking on starting at the lowest hardware and scaling up, instead of starting at the highest spec and then scaling down to the lower hardware which is what was done here
https://www.youtube.com/wat...
https://www.youtube.com/wat...

What you dont understand is that the compromises come in the lower based hardware, not the higher end hardware. The higher end hardware is what was used to make the game...they push it as far as they can, then cut corners to get the game to run on the lower hardware...

[_LarZen_]

The easiest example is the SSD and the exceptional level of bandwidth these consoles will be able to handle. We have had SSD’s on PC for years and years.

But no game have been made to take advantage of a SSD. And I’m not thinking about loading screens but streaming data.

We will by all likelihood see games designed differently with bigger and smarter level design. Larger areas and views because so much more data can be streamed then before. That in combination with more and faster RAM and CPU should deliver more and smarter Ai, physics and just overall scale of everything.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we will see the first SSD required games coming to PC because of how games can be made on these consoles. Starship Citizen is the first PC game in development now that requires a SSD because of exactly what I’ve mentioned here.

So yeah current-gen consoles will absolutely hold back the Series X and PS5. Thankfully they will be left behind in 2-3 years.

[timotim]

SSD certainly isn't the easiest...its actually the most extreme case at this point. Too many variables and unknowns for anyone to actually say how its going to go. Sure, we know these console will have a fast SSDs...but what happens when the SSD runs out of storage space? What happens if youre playing some of these next gen games off external HDDs? What about devs that must also consider very high end PCs WITHOUT the same SSD tech of these new consoles? We have no clear picture at this time about the technology and how it works so you cant possibly call it the easiest, as if all games will automatically use it going forward and only current gen consoles will hold it back...thats out there.

Easiest would be environmental physics...easiest would be smarter AI patterns...all of which would have no problem separating between current and next gen in platforms with the same games.

[IamTylerDurden1]

The SSD.

Cross gen games will ultimately have less design flexibility because they will lack the new SSD technology.

These new SSDs in the PS5 and Series X will do more than just reduce load times, they will influence design choices. Lacking this feature will surely hold back cross gen games.

The weaker XB1 hardware will also limit the technological and design capabilities to a degree as well.

Sure, games are very scalable in terms of resolution and framerate, but there are just certain design philosophies you can pull off with 12 teraflops as oppose to 1.3.

Ultimately, PS5 and Series X will have cross gen games, but Microsoft seems more committed to the idea than Sony.

[FanboysKiller]

Who are they? Call their names.

[SPEAKxTHExTRUTH]

Both consoles launch games will be held back by last gen. You really think MS and Sony will just abandon the millions of customers from last gen to solely release games on next gen?

[froy402]

@speak
Yeah that's that's exactly what sony did when ps3 ended and ps4 started

[sibyl1]

Yes, I think Sony first party games will take full advantage of the new hardware.

[SPEAKxTHExTRUTH]

Not when they gotta scale for PS4 they wont

[xX-oldboy-Xx]

SPEAK - Sony isn't releasing any PS5 1st party launch titles on PS4, when have they ever? Now 3rd party that's a different thing all together.

Game, set and match - ms has given the gen away already, this is a bigger blunder than anything Don Mattrick done.

[SPEAKxTHExTRUTH]

Do you really think Sony will not launch 1st party cross platform games for PS4/5 at launch? Sony never really focused on BC but something tells me that with PS5 they will. And if they do that then those games will be held back by PS4.

[xX-oldboy-Xx]

Do you really tho k Sony won't release 1st Party games exclusively on PS5?

They may do a remaster here and there - who cares? They don't count.

New ips and sequels released specifically for PS5 is all that matters.

Name one console (successful) that has released without exclusives?

[sampsonon]

it's just a bad move because most people won't make the leap to buy the series x when they can play the games on the console they already own.

[timotim]

This is Sony's way of thinking...do whats best for hardware sales and whats least for the consumers. Forget the fact that supporting your entire line of current products is pro consumer..forget the fact that it means more can experience the game...forget that it means more gamers to play with online #DayOne...no you rather they only do whats best for hardware sales...typicle.

[sampsonon]

enjoy your watered down games.
MS doesn't give a shit about you. they almost destroyed their brand this gen and understand they cannot compete with their competitors. So they decided to acquire A and AA studios so they can make cheap games and sell them on all formats. will they have a AAA games from time to time? sure, but they will be few and far between.
MS knows exactly what they are doing. make a bunch of cheap games and have people join a service so they think MS is doing someting.

NO launch exclusives? not one? lol

[IRetrouk]

They have supported every single playstation after the next has released, what are you talking about? The ps2 and 3 were both supported longer than the xbox and 360, so please explain how its sony that has a history of not supporting their older consoles?
Didnt sony also say the ps5 would be backwards compatible with ps4 games and accessories, including the vr headset? Hows that not pro consumer?
Also psn has more active users than live, so the whole more gamers to play with day one is bull, sonys already stated they want the transition to be easy, they have a history of supporting their old hardware and our friends list etc already was cross gen, with the ps3/4 and vita, Sony has us covered whether we buy day1 or wait, like it or dont, exclusives sell consoles, and that's kinda the point when one of your business is consoles....

[sibyl1]

What about consumers who buy a next gen console and want actual next gen games and not Skyrim remaster remastered because that's all the base console can handle?

[xX-oldboy-Xx]

timotim - o mate, what are you talking about? Look what your defending -

- NO EXCLUSIVE LAUNCH GAMES ON SERIES X - Why would anyone upgrade?

Sony has a fantastic line up of games releasing this year as a nice little swan song for the little console that could - PS4. Sony and PS4 will continue to outsell xbox and probably even keep up with Nintendo.

That positive energy and outlook will flow into next gen, a fresh start that will reinvigorate 1st party studios to prove themselves once more. Amazing 1st party exclusive showcasing the best the industry has top offer - what Sony does best - that will drive sales of their new hardware PS5.

How it should be.

[rainslacker]

I think it won't matter much in the first couple years. It also won't matter if its optional and at the devs discretion. I also think it's probably moot for any game going to PC as well. Chances are in the latter case, the game design that would most be effected(not graphics), would still use design and implementation principals that exist now, or even were around since last gen.

For console exclusives though, it's a big deal for the long run. Devs may choose to target a single platform, or multiple similar platforms, but will need the features available to them on those platforms for the core game design and implementation of design algorithms.

Many games, if not most, arent really going to be bar raisers, and the things that advance will be incremental, until they become ubiquitous. One or two changes to a design could be overcome if it has to be worked for older hardware. Major changes to design paradigms that may come about with new technology not so much.

As gamers though, we want devs to br looking at those large scale changes which redefine what to expect from not only a gamer perspective, but from the perspective of how the industry decides to make games. Otherwise, we just have stagnated design, and pretty visuals, which is about what I feel this gen has been worth. Very few games this gen wouldbt have been possible on last gen hardware with some consideration to limiting graphic design. But from a design standpoint, there is nothing that really stood out as bleeding edge and only possible on newer hardware. A lot of that was because the hardware only advanced in one area. In some ways last gen hardware was actually better at core game design processing, which is a side effect of x86 from CELL or PowerPC that ps3 or xbox used respectively.

[sampsonon]

Single shot, no loading God Of War was innovative.
Driveclubs weather/day night cycle was never done before the way they implemented it.

many more innovations that happened. Sorry you didn't notice them.
And I'm too tired to list them all.
Take care.

[rainslacker]

Yeah, but we're talking about small innovations on top of what has become common back end design. There have been quite a few of those kinds of things this gen, but no game that really just blew everything out of the water in terms of innovating game design.

GOW for instance, could have been done to some degree last gen, but it'd require dialing back the size of the world, and using other tricks like occlusion culling. Graphics would also take a hit. The effects of what was done was exemplified in a larger world which came from newer, or at least more, technology behind the system....like memory and graphics rendering, but for many of the scenes in the game, there wasn't a lot that couldn't have been done last gen.

Weather cycles in Driveclub I don't really think was a product of better hardware this gen. The effects of the actual weather was made better because of the better hardware. That is an advancement of game design, but if the weather itself was done last gen, it just would have had similar physics effects to what they had in the games that had it last gen.

I'm talking bigger picture stuff. Games like Gears of War which couldn't have been done on the older hardware. Uncharted which used technology which wasn't available the prior gen. Games like Mass Effect which upped the anty in terms of back end design. There wasn't a lot of that this gen, and what was there was more sporadic in the larger game it was in.

[S2Killinit]

A bad move on their part I think

[ApocalypseShadow]

Fans keep lying about this. Sure. OFFLINE, you can scale games to fit certain graphics settings. Basically, remove all the good stuff. That happens right now for consoles, PCs and mobile.

ONLINE multiplayer, scaling isn't going to be possible unless you dumb down the more powerful game. No matter how much you want to believe it won't. It will. Either you hold it back or you make the game exclusive to the higher console.

It's not all about resolution and frame rates. That's that PC mentality of making something LOOK better with a new graphics card. But you guys are trying to tell us that this example:

200 vs 200
50 vehicles
Bullets can go through walls
Walls are destructible with grenades, C4 and rocket launchers
Buildings can be destroyed
Terrain can be modified with gunfire and explosives.
Weather creates mud and puddles that slows movement of characters and vehicles.
Advanced physics that all happen at 60fps or higher

VS

32 vs 32
10 vehicles
Bullets not going through walls
Walls aren't destructible with grenades, C4 and rocket launchers
Buildings can't be destroyed
Terrain can't be modified
Weather doesn't affect the ground to create mud or puddles
Lower level physics that we currently see all happening at 60fps or lower

YOU CAN'T SCALE THAT ACROSS SYSTEMS.

If the current system's game can't handle what the higher system game is doing, the higher game will have to be dumbed down or not even possible to play with the other. We have even seen games like for Xbox and PS4 that can't be cross played with the Switch because the Switch can't keep up. Xbox series X games would have to be scaled back to cross play One with the only difference being resolution and textures. Or not at all.

Next gen is about what is not possible to do on current systems. No amount of spinning will change the facts. Some things can't be scaled.

[timotim]

Im going to tackle your post point for point and explain how you can START with an SX and get these things and then scale down to not have these things in base Xbox One. Remember not all modes are mandatory between generations. There could be instances where SX does things that drastically changes on One S but the game will still be avalible on both.

200 vs 200 - SX could have 200 while One S gets 32. The 200 could be a feature exclusive to SX.

32 vs 32 - see above

Bullets goes through walls - theirs nothing particularly taxing about bullets going through walls. Thats more of a design philosophy more than anything. Just because one has enough power to have bullets going through walls does not mean they will want to. Perfect Dark had a mechanic where you could see what was on the other side of a wall and shoot the player...

Walls are destructible with grenades, C4 and rocket launchers - could be realtime calculations on SX and scripted on One S

Buildings can't be destroyed - see above

Terrain can't be modified - see above

Weather doesn't affect the ground to create mud or puddles - see above

Advanced physics that all happen at 60fps or higher - could be 60 on SX and 25 or not at all on One S

Not a single thing you've said that can be compromised on for the lower end hardware from your talking points. The next gen counterpart can have all those things while the lower older gen hardware can have those same things cut or removed...compromise sure...but not for the next gen console, only for previous gen...

[rainslacker]

MS hasn't really clarified what the extent of their comment is, not have they said if its mandatory at all. They've only said that is the expectation of their in house devs, and weren't even that committal on if it would be for the entire generation. Heck, they weren't even saying that last gen would be supported, just that a series of hardware would all play the same software.

I like the general discussion, especially from a philosophical standpoint. It is something directly related to my job. But my job is literally making tools for porting games across systems, so I am intimately aware of the limitations of game design centered around hardware features.

Graphics, yeah, that's easy to scale and is not even worth discussing. But it's all the other stuff which Apocolypse gives a fine, if not rhetorical example of.

It won't matter for all games. It may. Ot be mandated for all devs(I hope it isnt). It may. It be mandated at all. It may not even be talking about the base hardware this gen.

I just feel the discussion is being done based in forgone conclusions based on limited information.

If I'm wrong about what MS was specifically talking about, and they dis indeed say what this was all about and how it was implemented, then please enlighten me, because then I can discuss how I feel about it instead of making general scenarios to discuss it phylisophically.

[ApocalypseShadow]

If what you say is true, we would still be cross playing with PS2 and OG Xbox. Some things can't be scaled. Sure. You can make modes that limit what the higher game has during a match to play with the weaker console. But now, it no longer plays like a next gen game. It plays like a prettier current gen game.

Every gen we moved forward. There's only so many things a current system can do at the same time. But if the next gen console has better physics, that won't translate to the weaker console. Or we would be playing GT Sport on PS4 with GT6 on PS3.

I know you guys want to push this idea that Microsoft can scale games all the way back to SNES. But that's not the case. Single player yes. Multi player. No.

As soon as you said compromised, you blew your comment. You would either strip down the current game to keep up. Making it look like PS2. Or, you limit what the next gen game can do when playing against weaker consoles. Holding the game back to play a with a weaker console.

Compromise. You blew it. Let Next gen consoles do what they're supposed to do. Be next gen. I'm not saying the game itself will be limited by current gen. But in GAMEPLAY it will. That's where it matters when they play against each other. Something has to give to keep parity.

[timotim]

@Shadow

Now youre just making things up to fit your narrative.

I never implied about scaling things as far back as the SNES...we are talking simply about next gen vs current gen...IN THE FIRST COUPLE YEARS...dont go full on over exaggeration on me. Lets keep thing within the realm of the discussion...I wont offend you, and you try and do the same.

Yes, every gen we will move forward...this coming gen will be no exception...but it wont be all earth shattering physics and unprecedented AI AT LAUNCH like some of you think. In fact, AT LAUNCH, it will be very much an improved iteration of what we have now. What you envision when you think "moving forward" will not take place until year 3-4 of next gen...once these current generation consoles are no longer supported anymore and devs have a greater understanding of where the market is and what these system can do. Now I know youre a PS guy so its better if I speak on a level you can better understand. Sony has sold over 100 million PS4s...you honestly think that they will leave that money on the table when producing next gen games AT LAUNCH???

"As soon as you said compromised, you blew your comment. You would either strip down the current game to keep up. Making it look like PS2. Or, you limit what the next gen game can do when playing against weaker consoles."

Blew it how? Example... no one expects a Nintendo Switch to keep up with an high end PC on physics, AI, visual fidelity etc...but compromises is exactly what CD Red had to make in order to get The Witcher 3 running on the Switch. Switch didn't hold back the game...they made the best version that the Switch platform could handle, and the game still garnered an 85 rating from meta for this compromised version on that platform. You understand that compromises were also made to get the game running on both PS4 and Xbox One too right? Neither of those versions play as well, runs as smooth or looks as good as the PC version, yet you most likely bought the compromised PS4 version.

"Let Next gen consoles do what they're supposed to do. Be next gen."

Thats exactly what Im saying. Their is nothing from stopping 343i from making a truly next gen Halo on SX while they compromise to get it to run on base Xbox One. Environmental physics, weather, AI, visuals...all these things can be taken advantage of on SX while limited, reduced or removed on One S. Forza Horizon 2 was "next gen" on Xbox One, yet no so much on 360...they actually had to cut certain things out of the design to make it work and offroad races were taken out completely from that version, but they did make it work none the less. They didn't gimp the Xbox One version, they gimped the previous gen version but made the best game they could for that platform.
https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[ApocalypseShadow]

And Tim Tim, that is what I said. The base game, the single player game can be whatever it's going to be. That doesn't bother me. No game is being limited by the other hardware here.

When speaking of multiplayer, that's when things get compromised. You would have to create a mode that limits what the next gen game is doing when playing against a weaker console. That would get boring over time. And I'm not even a tech head.

Now, if I'm playing a next gen combat game with all that I mentioned, weather, fog rolling in, environmental destruction, etc. Or, I shoot holes in the wall and light rays pour through it and I can see the enemy through the holes because now there's Raytracing, or his shadow passing through the light and now I can attack him, that adds to the gameplay. That would not happen on current gen. It's not possible to play together.

Now, I might play with a friend or relative in that mode built to play with current gen. But it wouldn't be fun anymore. Once you get a taste of that next gen gameplay, you're going to want to play that more and ask them, or even tell them, that they need to buy the new console. I'd bet after you showed them your console and the combat game, they may not want to play that mode or the current game either. They would see that their friend was held back in gameplay just to play with them. Pushing them to buy a new console themselves.

Will companies give up current consumer numbers for next gen? No. But what they will do is use profits generated from current gen to sustain next gen games and concepts until there enough consumers to sustain the platform itself. Making a game have to play with the older game is not taking gaming forward. It's handicapping it. It's like exclusives have become foreign to people. You don't have to make games across generations. Here and there it will happen. But it won't happen often and shouldn't. As a business, you don't give gamers reasons to not get the new product. You create reasons they should. Like exclusives.

And you're assuming those games aren't being made as we speak for launch.

[ApocalypseShadow]

Here's an example of what I said above
https://i.pinimg.com/origin...

That person passing through the light becomes a target. And if there's a laser sight on his gun looking for you, the red or green light may pass through the holes. An explosion in the background may create light through the holes. Maybe, you can place the gun barrel in the hole to use it as a brace to shoot. Maybe with time of day cycles, the light changes direction like you see here. Press play on the 10 second one
https://www.shutterstock.co...

From what I understand, this can all be done with Ray tracing. Why would I want to limit myself to play a game against current gen with those things not going on? And this is just one example.

After tasting that, just like all of us have jumped away from playing previous gens often, you won't want to play the limited mode with current gen. You would feel held back. You would want to play next gen combat with other players who have the next gen game too.

It's the same with VR. After 40+ years of playing games, the TV is, in my view, holding back gameplay immersion. Ask anyone that has played RE7 or Skyrim in VR compared to flat. Most of us can still play flat games. But feel held back by regular game development.

It's not the game itself held back. It's the gameplay if having to play with weaker consoles.

[Kribwalker]

didn’t the PS3 have a 256 person multiplayer game in Mag?

You can scale it if the tech is there. Right now on the xbox one x i get 60fps on rocket league at 4k, the xbox one gets what 900p/30fps, what does the switch get? 800/30?
The witcher 3 scales down to the switch, but can run amazingly in Ultra settings 4k 144fps if you have the right rig. The game can scale.

it’ll look like shit on the xbox one compared to the SX, but that’s the problem of those that don’t upgrade

[ApocalypseShadow]

See above.

[bluefox755]

Obviously, we see this every gen with cross gen games.

[Exvalos]

History is about to repeat itself, I called this years ago when Microsoft announced the one x, you have this monster of a console but its tied to hardware from 2013, so these developers hands are tied. Yes the games will be held back by the old hardware.

[DiRtY]

I game on a beastly PC these days and the games look stunning. Nothing is held back by not so beastly PCs that can run the same game.

[ApocalypseShadow]

Graphics is not what can be held back. If a game is to play with a weaker system, the gameplay would be held back. You would have to design modes that all systems can handle to play together. That's tying the hands behind one hardware back to have parity.

Better games made on better hardware, shouldn't have to limit themselves to play against weaker hardware.

When hardware manufacturers tell developers you can't add anything in gameplay between PS4 and PS4 Pro when playing together. And Xbox One with Xbox One X, that's being held back. When Sony said you can't add in gameplay anything different between PSVR on Pro and PSVR on base PS4, that's holding back.

We know this to be true because it has already happened. If you think it hasn't happened on PC to keep parity, you're wrong. You're just not told that they did it as developers aren't going you tell you. And it will happen in next gen if these games are to cross play.

[thexmanone]

No, It don`t with a pc. People who think that it will are just fanboys.

[GameStallion]

Is Microsoft paying N4G to run these articles or is there just really not that much fun gaming news right now?

[SugarSoSweet]

This is something I'm genuinely worried about......

[chiefJohn117]

I get the feeling you'll have to connect online if you wanna play next gen games on old hardware. (Cloud power?)

[gravedigger]

Yep

[SkatterBrain]

i feel with all the power levels this gen all over the place that games next gen will be like PC Games Releasing on Differnt settings, try it out on high end games and it pretty much matches how the According consoles look

Switch 1.0 Teraflops Very Low Settings
Xbox One 1.3 Teraflops Low Settings
PS4 1.8 Teraflops like Medium settings
PS4 Pro 4.2 Teraflops High Settings
Xbox One X 6.0 Teraflops Very High Settings
PS5 9.2 Teraflops Ultra Settings
Xbox Series X 12.0 Teraflops Max Settings

[Magog]

It's not about how good they look its about AI, and unique SSD capabilites which will be held back by old hardware.

[tontontam0]

Xbox one "X"
XBOX series "X"
Xbox one "X" has an "X" so it is probably part of series X

Xbox one "X" is next gen and future games will be held back by the Xbox one "X".

[SkatterBrain]

this is what i thought that the current X is part of the series like theyl make games only supporting the X and Next Gen Xbox but wont run on the S or base model Xbox One, so i could see them making a Mid console 9 teraflops and a high Console 12 Teraflops so the games will run on all 3 systems

[FanboySpotter]

There won't be any holding back. No x1 game held back the x why would series x be held back? First party games using their top performing console to build games from the ground up on just down scales on xbox devkits so easily to their devices.

Have you seen forza horizon 4 on og x1? Game was built ground up for xb1x and it looks like it doesn't belong on og x1 for how weak it is or s. their devkits are magic. The only games that might hold back both series x and ps5 are launch multiplatform crossgen games (depending on developers and how lazy they are) because we know that for xbox devices all they gotta do is 1 version unlike 360-x1 transition.

But who knows if they will have to make a ps5 version then a ps4 version since there hasn't been any downscaling comments from sony side so far.

[Da_Ocsta]

If a game isn't made with next gen hardware in mind, it won't be as awesome. How hard is that to understand?

[isarai]

Apparently VERY looking at this comment section.

[TheHan]

No because they already scale differently amongst each

[Max_Eckhardt]

Next gen CPU’s are supposed to offer advanced A.I, crowd simulations etc... not possible on old jaguar CPU’s.
I guess nothing about the xbox exclusives will be next fen other than the graphics then.

[SpineSaw]

The answer is yes! If we're talking about Microsoft 1st party studio's it's a simple yes. When has Microsoft first party every pushed the limit of their own hardware? Never!

[isarai]

Yes, easily. Next gen is centered around SSDs and a massive leap in CPU power which will affect core design choices, choices that cannot be made if the game has to run on current gen hardware. Surprised at how many ignorant people are in this comment section.

[Miacosa]

No, Xbox Series X will leave current Xbox in the dust and Microsoft will rely on Project X Cloud or Devs to creative a lower spec version for older hardware if the financials work out to do so.

[fathertime4464]

News today
MS forward and backwards compat across all xbox brands from here on out. The people [boo, bullshit, going to hold things back, you suck, such a dumb move]

Tomorrow's news
Sony making all playstation devices forward and backwards compat from here on out. The people [yay, brave move, how revolutionary, so consumer friendly, why don't others do that, this is why Microsoft's the devil]

[STK026]

Of course it will. Graphics can scale but game design doesn't.

As an example, if I wanted to make a battle Royale game with 1000 players and push the next generation consoles to their limits while doing so, the Xbox one version would likely need to be scaled back. Having worse graphics is one thing, but it's also possible that the Xbox one simply couldn't have nearly as many players due to both cpu and GPU limitations. While simply reducing the number of players on this platform could make it work technically, chances are that I would also need to adjust the map itself in order for it not to feel like a wasteland. In such a case, scaling down needs more work than scaling up, therefore most developers in such a situation would chose to create the game with the Xbox one in mind and simply make it look and run better on series X.

People say that PCs have been dealing with this for a while, which is true to an extent. PC does offer plenty of settings to allow a game to run a wide variety of hardware. However, even if you manually set a game to potato graphics, it still won't run on some older hardware. Take a modern Total War game, lower the settings to the bare minimum and try running it on a Pentium 4 with a GeForce 6800 and it'll be unplayable if it starts at all.

Next gen consoles are set to run from faster storage, have significantly better cpu cores, twice as much memory and a much improved GPU. This should allow for more immersive worlds, more realistic physics and improved AI. These, unlike graphics and resolution, don't necessarily scale as well as shadows or textures for example.

I believe that by adopting this strategy it is possible that Microsoft's first party developers will be less ambitious in their projects compared to third party developers or Sony.