Mario vs. Sonic in 2017: Why Odyssey worked but Sonic Forces failed

Nintendo understands Mario's core mechanical appeal, while Sega keeps trying to push Sonic in directions other than "going fast."

[FallenAngel1984]

Because Nintendo is passionate for their flagship franchise while Sonic Team has become very dispassionate and cynical about theirs

[PhoenixUp]

“The war between the pudgy Italian plumber and the spikey blue hedgehog continued, decades after it began, with the 2017 release of both Super Mario Odyssey and Sonic Forces.”

What ongoing war? It died 16 years ago when Sega stopped being a hardware manufacturer.

[-Foxtrot]

I think what these games show you really is Mario can get away with gimmicks...give him Fludd or a magic hat and it works. Give Sonic a sword, alien wisps, a werewolf form etc and it dosen't work. I think that should tell Sega something...stop trying to be like Mario. Only thing Sonic should have is abolities from the item boxes like faster speed, special shields or short time invincibility.

You want to know why a 3D adventure like Sonic Adventure works...no gimmicks, it was it's own thing.

[PhoenixUp]

Wisps didn’t ruin the Sonic experience

[-Foxtrot]

No but they were stupid and not needed...I mean yeah that's what Sonic needs, more characters.

[PhoenixUp]

They enhanced Sonic’s basic moveset in most cases and weren’t as introsive as the other examples you mentioned.

Other characters would be welcome, but that doesn’t make wisps a terrible idea unto itself.

[-Foxtrot]

But the point is they can't help putting something in whether it's small like the wisps or a game changer like the werewolf form.

Sega always feels the need to add something and it's getting annoying. I mean even in Sonic Forces they thought about wasting time on a custom character creator. Who asked for that? I mean seriously? Polishing the game and making it better then it was would have probably been a better option,

[PhoenixUp]

I’m specifically talking about the wisps. They weren’t even as egregious as past power ups Sonic’s had in 2D games or the Adventure games.

So no the wisps in particular aren’t an example of bad game design, especially when they were implemented to a nice extent that didn’t dramatically change the gameplay style.

Adding in new things is what most platformers do.

[StormLegend]

Wisps and Boosting ruined the games for me.

[Teflon02]

I like boosting. I hate wisps though in forces I don't mind seeing the way they're used works fine for the avattar

[Neonridr]

I wouldn't say that Mario relies on gimmicks. Just really, really great gameplay. The root of fun really.

[-Foxtrot]

You're making out I'm saying it as a bad thing...I'm not

I'm just saying when they add a feature which COULD be considered a gimmick, it works so well that it's not

Unlike Sonic where when something is added it feels like it is

[Neonridr]

@Foxtrot - fair enough, I see what you mean there. Thank you for clarifying.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

"You want to know why a 3D adventure like Sonic Adventure works"

Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 was the reason I got a Dreamcast.
I haven't played any other Sonic game since those two, but if they haven't done so in the past, I don't get why Sega doesn't just put their focus on expanding the Sonic Adventure series. Just stick with that story-driven/action-adventure Sonic. They can even make it open world. There is a lot they can work with.

[gangsta_red]

In all honesty I don't know why Sonic games don't work. What is it that he's doing that's different from what Mario is doing or has done?

Its almost to a point to where Sonic has tried everything in terms of gameplay and design and it just doesn't work.

I think Sega needs to hand the title over to Nintendo's Mario team and see what they can do with the character. One, lets see if they could actually make a game that is well received by gamers and two lets see if there's just any type of bias against Sonic if they just do the same thing that was done before but now it's the greatest game ever.

[DillyDilly]

Perhaps Sega should let Nintendo make Sonic games

[Skuletor]

They should just let the Sonic Mania devs make future Sonic games instead.

[Teflon02]

It took them that long to release mania. I'm not trying to wait Square Enix Long for the next Sonic game. Forces had its problems but it's not bad. Just need to go back to Unleashed and Gen type stages

[overrated44]

Sonic Forces looks even worse coming out after Sonic Mania. Sonic Mania shows what can be good and done well in a Sonic game, Sonic Forces shows everything that is wrong with the current Sonic franchise.

[Tross]

Here's an idea: Sega should stop trying to CPR Sonic and focus on other IPs. Mario's still around because his franchise never died. Sonic has been dead for a long time.

[Kosic]

I've not played a sonic game since the Dreamcast days. Even then it was terrible.
Sonic isn't a great 3d world platformer. Half the time the game plays it's self when you get into a section where it's all about going fast. The camera just pans by showing you loop then big jumps into more loops.

The quality of sonic has dropped. Even just viewing it from a video trailer. There's nothing that screams buy me from these sorts of games.

Where as mario is a basic platformer, Odyssey didn't really offer anything new to the formula. Even the hat doesn't change the game much. Every so often you'll control something new. But everything still felt like the basic Mario 64 sort of title.
This is where mario does well, it's a basic game with a very high level quality to it, every zone felt like it had loads of passion behind it.