Art over politics - Separating the creator from the work

"Sometimes, it seems like the hardest thing a person could do is to separate the creator from his or her work (like in the case with Notch's "Minecraft" and Tim Sore's "The Last Night"t). So here's my take on the matter" - Justin Easler TGG

[Poli_Games]

I never really cared about anyone's political views when it comes to entertainment, if the games good I'll play it!

[TGG_overlord]

That's what Jay (and I) think as well. I think we're better off that way to be honest.

[Simon_the_sorcerer]

Good call that.

[Littil_Devil]

From what I can tell, this was a smear campaign by the anti-GG folks. I mean, the timing was perfect. E3 2017 was live, and Sore presented The Last Night for the world, and then bam!

[VideoGamesAreDumb]

"smear campaign by the anti-GG folks"

Sore has said he's anti GG as well now. So that's good.

[TGG_overlord]

They did so to put him under pressure. Simply put, they used that to force him to apologize.

[bluefox755]

Right? If I were to write off every game, movie, and song just because I didn't like the politics of the artist, I'd never get to experience anything entertainment related. This is one of the very rare scenarios where I'm actually in agreement with the politics of the creator. I'm glad that others are also able to enjoy work by someone they might not necessarily agree with on everything.

[ccgr]

As a Christian reviewer I have to be blameless as the Bible commands in Phil 2:15

[TGG_overlord]

You mean the "You shall not judge" part?

[Simon_the_sorcerer]

It's this part:
https://www.biblegateway.co...

[Simon_the_sorcerer]

I am not an active Christian (or how I should put it), but I like the Christian values.

[Littil_Devil]

I'm just going to let the game speak for itself.

[Simon_the_sorcerer]

I honestly don't care all that much about their personal opinions, politics and whatnot (at least not if it's not something really extreme). Simply put, if the game is great, then I will buy it.

[Littil_Devil]

Not to mention that there is a whole team behind The Last Night. So I really love the fact that "some" people ranted that they would boycott the game just because of what ONE person on the team said.

[Littil_Devil]

I had no idea about what Tim Sore's said back in 2014, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less. Because I think that The Last Night looks freaking awesome.

[opinionated]

I have no idea what CDPR's political views are despite their very political games. I have no idea what Klei's political views are. These are some of my favorite studios and I think the fact that I don't know their politics attributes to it. Some studios are very open about their stupid politics and I can forgive if it's not overly apparent in their games or smartly written. Some of my favorite game writers are flaming left wing hacks (Amy hennig, ken Levine).

The creators that preach their activism through their works with token platitudes get on my nerves. I'd be lying if I said that it didn't influence my opinion of them. So I enjoy thoughtful political writing and loathe the idiot political writing. Unfortunately the idiot politics heavily outnumber anything with actual substance.

[TGG_overlord]

I like Ken Levine, but I don't know all that much about his political stand points. As for me, if I ever ended up developing my own game, then I would most likely add so little of my own personal political thoughts as possible.

[opinionated]

Yeah he seems like an awesome dude. He's a thinker and even though I disagree with some of his view points or tweets I still respect his works and opinions. He trashed a part of my own personal political philosophy and it's my favorite game lol. If it's done well then it's done well.

I have no objection to people promoting their beliefs and creating what they want. It's a business though, not a protest. If you don't cater to your audience and only try to feed your appetite for personal activism then don't be surprised when your audience leaves you. Know your audience and target them. Don't try to please everyone, it's not possible.

[_-EDMIX-_]

That doesn't sound like you hate its involvement it simply sounds like you don't agree with specific views.

Regardless of how you feel about it policy-making in and of itself is still in art and is still an ideology that many developers are going to take in and show in their work.

[opinionated]

No, I hate the involvement and popularity of a few ideologies lol. Im not going to join a boycott list or take to the streets in mass protest to get it taken off of the shelves, I just won't buy it lol. Maybe shit talk a little.

I think history and politics are interesting. Control of the masses in all its forms and engineering. Whether it be law, religion or activism. I certainly have my own view points and clash with others but it doesn't mean I don't think they can exist.

I have many friends that are the polar opposite of me politically, left wing nutjobs. Who else would I bum HBO off of? Lol

[Swiftfox]

I'm not really sure you can use Disney as the simile unless there was a bit of soap-boxing on Disney's behalf--say they came out in favor of Communism or something. Still I find the language used interesting here. Disney the harsh, over workers and the poor poor people making the films and behold--the ends justify the means. Interesting to lead into a story about someone you seemingly share views with.

Let's say instead Anita Sarkeesian was making a game--and it looked fun and interesting to play with no obvious agenda being pushed--would we see an article like this one from these writers? You mean we wouldn't get threatening tweets? We wouldn't get a call to boycott and a negative reaction from people who obviously aren't too keen on her? It's fairly obvious the writers of the piece agree with Sore's views and this is a sympathy article with a heavy amount of bias. I really don't care I mean your opinion and views are yours, but If you want to show, in fact, it's not the politics/world views it would serve you well to cite an example from a creator with a viewpoint you don't agree with. It helps the proposition carry far more weight.

Also please stop using the world "art" to defend your own personal view points. I don't care which side does it, people only ever use the term to push an agenda anyway--the title deserves far more respect than to be made a "buzzword" to defend whatever.

[TGG_overlord]

I can't speak for Jay, but I can tell what I think. Truth be told, I don't like Anita (for more than one reason), and I can be honest enough to say that. However, I'm not a huge fan of Tim Schafer either (I used to be a fan of his). Even so, I still play some of Tim's old games. So I guess that I could give a game of that kind a fair chance without any biased opinions.

Well, Jay did add a ***Disclosure*** tag att the bottem of the post. Nevertheless, I'll be sure to forward this comment to Jay. Thanks for the feedback.

[_-EDMIX-_]

The word art is about expressing one's views in the first place...

Somebody wants to express their ideals through that method there free to do that.

Art and policy-making are two things that clearly are going to coincide with each other if not literally be intertwined and interchangeable to be almost the same things.

They are methods to express views.

I mean that's like trying to tell an artist that when they create their work to just simply forget and ignore all of their religious upbringing as well as political as well as their economical situation so after you're done can you even explain what art actually is? Do you seriously believe the influences regarding art have nothing to do with any of those?

Seriously get out of your feelings 😂😂😂

you have to accept that anybody that's expressing themselves through any method of art is going to use anything that they believe in inside of their work

the two cannot actually be separate ,both are almost the same thing.

If you want them to express something that is inside of their heart ,you're also asking them to express their religious ,political ,economical worldly views would have you.

If you can't accept that you, you cannot accept what art actually is.

[Swiftfox]

Of course I know what art is--I have a degree in the subject and am well versed in Art History. My issue isn't with people making the games. People will create as they do like any other art--that's not the point.

What I am getting at are those who seek to defend their preferred content by saying "it's just a game" and then contradicting it with "Artist should be aloud to do whatever." To say "it's just a game" is to relegate the medium into a static plateau damning it to be nothing more than what it is. An art is far more. No matter what you include in a game it demands conversation and critique, but there are those who would suggest it's "just a game" to dismiss any conversation all together--this is lazy and unacceptable. There are those who would also use "it's art" similarly to dismiss criticism and conversation.

If you're going to now align yourself to the camp of games being art, you need to get ready to not only state your ideals but discuss them. You need to embrace criticism and communicate higher ideas in open debate. This "chill out it's just a game" does not fly, and if you think holding up the shield of "it's art" is going to protect you from criticism and conversation--you're very mistaken.

[_-EDMIX-_]

@swift-I'm pretty positive it can be art and I'm pretty positive it could also be just a game

I have no clue why you thought that both of those things could not both be the same.

I have no idea why you suddenly believed it had to be an either or.

"There are those who would also use "it's art" similarly to dismiss criticism and conversation"

That's nice take up your emotional Vendetta with "those" people.

I mean that's not even relevant to games actually being art and the artist being able to freely Express their ideals with any art form they feel like it.

I mean maybe you're seriously going to have to get over it that artists are free to create what they feel like it what is your solution? Are you going to ban artists from creating Things based on their political, religious, economical believes what have you?

I mean seriously help me understand what you think the solution is to your fake problem?

"If you're going to now align yourself to the camp of games being art, you need to get ready to not only state your ideals but discuss them"

I don't need to do jack because this has nothing to do with my beliefs as much as it would have to do with the beliefs of the actual creator that made the content itself.

You are taking everything so personal and getting so emotionally worked up, if somebody creates a game or a movie or any piece of art based on their religious upbringing why is it that I need to bring up my own religious upbringing in defence or against what someone else created? Are you seriously telling me you're not even able to discuss a damn game without jumping to try to defend or go against a specific religious, political ,economical belief simply because you don't agree with the artist?

Like I said before you might have to accept truthfully that other people have different views in their free to express that within their games. All Gamers don't need to come out trying to be combative and argumentative on these topics just because an artist decided to create a game based on a subject that might be controversial.

I'm pretty positive I'm able to still watch and appreciate American History X while still not sharing all the views of any of the writers or directors.

I'm sorry but that's not a prerequisite for discussion of a game or anything to be honest.

I shouldn't have to be prepared to battle or be combative against specific beliefs just because we enjoy in art form in which the Creator may have used his own personal beliefs as influence.

Some of us are actually able to accept different views.

[TGG_overlord]

"Sore has said he's anti GG as well now. So that's good."

- Guess three times why. It's all about the money.

[TheOttomatic91]

It's a damn shame people can't seperate their political views from their craft but that also goes for developers that openly proclaim their political views and demand people who don't agree with their views don't buy their products like with that 2044 memories game (forgot actual name).

[_-EDMIX-_]

How could somebody separate a Viewpoint they have of the world from an artistic design?

An artistic design is something that is inherently expressive by its peer definition.

So clearly their political views or religious or economical social what have you are going to come into play in regards to their design.

To ask them to separate those views when creating a game is basically like asking them to objectively create something without any real emotion.

I mean using your logic we would never have something like American History X.

Okay so let's just separate all of our political views all of our social economical views and create what exactly?

Leave the PC at the door and allow creators to create.

Get out of your feelings of people having different views than you.

Seriously get over it and grow up.

Censor my work to make you feel better?

GTFO!

[Inzo]

"Even so, for some reason, a large group of people cannot see past that. In fact, several people (who, let’s be real, probably weren’t going to buy the game anyways)"

And now I am most certainly buying this game. In my view politics does not belong in games and neither does using games as a way to force your own ideologies onto people.

[_-EDMIX-_]

I mean you might as well feel the same way about books, movies, shows what have you.

What would even be your solution to this? Censor everyone's work of views you don't agree with?

[Inzo]

You cant compare the two or even movies. Books have always been story driven, a narrative following the path the author has set out, movies, which most of them were books first, are the exact same, always about the narrative but games did not start off that way, always focused on gameplay, story telling was a very distant 4th. Even as recent as the early to mid 2000s story telling in games came down, mostly, to revenge, rescue and mission based with maybe the exception of MGS. But recently the SJW message and ideologies has really started rearing its ugly head. I stand by what I said.

[_-EDMIX-_]

@inz-I very much could compare books and movies to gaming because there's still a narrative that is being told and it is still an art form go someone's ideals that are being expressed.

Stop trying to defect from the topic please.

That's nice that games did not start off that way but that's irrelevant to what we're talking about at the end of the day they can be and they are currently narrative-driven Concepts.

What they started out is irrelevant as I'm pretty positive books and even film actually did not start out as a narrative rich as you see today ,but I'm not too sure what the relevance is of such a thing in the first place it's off topic in seems a desperate way to stray off focus.

You still yet to answer my question ,exactly what is your solution? You're basically advocating for censorship based on views or ideologies you don't agree with ironically you basically are agreeing to the concept of social justice Warriors in a political sense you're saying you don't want its involvement inside of a game based on a personal Strife or grievance.

At the end of the day politics religion economics any of those ideals have their place in gaming who are you to say this shouldn't be?

Again why are you advocating for censorship?

Desperately trying to include specific ideologies in games is actually no different than trying to remove ideologies inside of someone else's work or advicate the removal of specific ideals from people's work.

You basically are social justice Warrior for politics.....

Soooo yea.

Stop getting so emotional over it if somebody creates something that you don't agree with because of their political or religious or economical what-have-you ideologies, you are free to move on and not play it but the outright say it should not be in the medium is silly and immature just play something else.

I mean that's as stupid as saying they shouldn't be in books or films just because you get a stupid childish emotional tantrum at a view that you don't agree with.

As an African American male do you not understand just how many conservative ideologies I don't agree with? But do you see me saying that they should all be banned?

Lol

Please dear God get over it.

Understand that the medium needs to evolve and artist should be free to include whatever they want in their games just as much as you're free to not play them , but trying to ask them to not exist in gaming is pretty stupid and desperate.

If you're so immature that you can't even look past a few point you don't agree with to enjoy a game then clearly you're free to skip it.

I don't support censorship in any form.

I also don't support social justice Warriors either as you basically seem like you're from the removal of specific content based on your own social justice ideologies.