Framerate is everything: why upgrading to 60fps can break your favorite games

Upgrading Dark Souls 2 caused an unexpected gameplay glitch which enhanced games on PS4 Pro and Xbox Scorpio can learn from

[Nitrowolf2]

This is seen mostly in japanese games because for some reason they like to tie physics and other things to the fps and when that changes from the origi al fps to a higher or even worse, it messes up a lot of things in the process.

Like the article states, there is no reason to do it like that (tie fps to game functions) considering games built on pc specifically dont suffer from this to different fps settings. Devs just thought they could get away with it on consoles, because you know, consoles a closed platform when it comes to players being able to change the fps themselves. Obviously with these ports we are seeing these issues. Hopefully theh build games in mind that fps can be improved one day going forward

[Ashlen]

"This is seen mostly in Japanese games"

That's not true at all.

Bethesda games especially Skyrim is notorious for its physics being locked to the frame rate. On PC if you had a high framerate things fly into the air when you enter buildings. And it happens in many games regardless of where they were made. Just because this article focuses on Japanese games doesn't in anyway mean this is limited or even more common with Japanese games.

If there is a commonality it's more common on games that weren't planning to go to PC where they would be exposed to unlimited framerates.

[quent]

Yep, same goes for Bioshock with that weird 30fps ragdoll physics

[VJGenova]

Killer Instinct @ over 60 fps also runs the game physics at the increased speed. Or it did. Not sure if it got patched or not. Doesn't get more American than MS.

[Unspoken]

Assets should stay where they are at for the time being until we can double the frame rate and keep it consistent. Going from 30 to 60 fps simply submerges you into the virtual world. It's very difficult to go back.

[VJGenova]

http://www.dsogaming.com/ne...

Not sure why I got disagrees ...

[rainslacker]

Maybe because a lot of Japanese games use Havok engine or Havok tools, which indeed does do this by default. Many western games actually do this too,because Havok is used in most of those games as well unless changes were made to the source code by the developer to prevent it.

Beyond that, there is no reason why it's either bad or good for physics to be tied to frame rate. It's also wrong to say it the way you do, because it's more that physics are tied into the game loop, instead of being a subroutine. Since frame rate is usually tied into the game loop, if the physics engine is also, then it's obviously going to be tied together...but not directly....just because it's in the game loop.

In any case, physics have no actual bearing on frame rate unless both are tied into the game loop instead of sub routines. They "get away with it" on consoles, because consoles are closed systems, and it generally gives better performance to actually make the frame rate part of the game loop.

In any case, games on PC also tie frame rate to the game loop, it's just that the game loop can keep up with the frame rate. It can do this by managing the input differently, so that small portion of the game loop is polled at a constant pace, as opposed to being read for each pass of the game loop.

Generally though, games on PC use the same engineering designs as their console counter parts. Doing otherwise would mean redesigning the whole game on a base level, and that almost never happens.

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Good article

[Elda]

I'm good at seeing the difference in resolution but I can't really tell 30fps & 60fps.

[dRanzer]

You can see the difference between 900P vs 1080P when you playing?
I find it hard to believe.

[Elda]

Imo 900p looks slightly duller then 1080p.

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

I can tell the difference between 900p (Battlefield 4 PS4) and 1080p. But between 30fps and 60fps it's way easier to see the difference. Yeah 900p definitely looks duller like @elda said below.

[ONESHOTV2]

elda--- do you own a PC? gaming one that is

[Elda]

No I don't just a PS Vita,3 & a PS4 Pro.

[ONESHOTV2]

elda--- ah i see no wonder you can't see the difference between 30 frames and 60- because most console games don't even hit that 60 mark---- and i own the same system as you good to know

[KwietStorm_BLM]

Frame rate, especially 30 to 60, is in another world than a little bump in resolution. Everything about the gameplay, even panning the camera feels completely different and far more responsive. That's why they're always making new monitors and TV technology with more responsive refresh rates to keep up with the input speed. Strange that you can't tell the difference.

[P_Bomb]

I love 60fps. Always have always will. One of the first things I notice.

[Imalwaysright]

Agreed. Some people at ND went as far as saying that 30 fps feels broken when compared to 60 fps https://www.gamespot.com/ar...

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

Though just because the game runs at 60fps doesn't mean it will actually have good responsive gameplay. I've played 60fps games that felt like 30fps gameplay wise.

[DefenderOfDoom2]

When i was playing DESTINY on PS4 which runs at 30fps and then started playing WOLFENSTEIN OLD BLOOD DLC which runs a 60fps . Wow, i noticed that WOLFENSTEIN OLD BLOOD ran much better, faster and smoother ! So you can feel the difference on consoles .

[rainslacker]

Depends on the game itself. Some don't benefit much or at all from 60 fps. Games with more action tend to show a difference though. Slower games, even slower action games, it can be hard to tell the difference if the frame rate can remain stable at a certain point.

[Prince_TFK]

The different between 30fps and 60fps is more noticeable than resolution. Try playing the Witcher 3 on console and the Witcher 3 on a high end PC and you will immediately see the different.

[Elda]

On my console or my tv I can tell the difference between 480p,720p,1080p & 4k the images or more vivid,defined,sharper & clearer then one another.I can't see the difference when I play a game with 30fps & 60fps,perhaps with 60fps the movement is faster or the animation is faster? I don't really know.

[Prince_TFK]

Elda

Once you get used to 60fps you wont be able to play 30fps games without feeling jerkiness. Also regarding resolution, i think you cheated abit by listing 480p as no modern console use that resolution. Heck even the switch handheld mode is 720p.

The resolution that we are talking about here should be from 1080p and up. From 1080p and up it is hard to see the differences without puting your face near the screen.

[krypt1983]

you can def tell the diff b4 30fps and 60fps its night and day

[Fyflin]

@Elda

Do you have the last of us for the PS4? Try flicking between locked 30 fps and 60 fps on the in game menu, see what difference it makes when rotating the camera etc.

[KTF26]

you can feel the difference between 30 and 60 fps
smoother animation is just small part of the experience
the more important thing is everything become more responsive

[Imalwaysright]

I can instantly tell if a game is running at 30 fps or 60 fps. In side by side comparisons 30 fps feels like its in slow motion compared to 60 fps.

[bluefox755]

I can tell the difference, and definitely prefer 60, but it's certainly not drastic for me like it is for some, unless it's a really fast paced game, then it makes a noticeable difference. Games like Horizon and Uncharted 4, I didn't really miss the 60fps much because they were done so well at 30.

[Elda]

Agreed,I watched some 30fps vs 60fps videos on YouTube & it's what I thought all along.30 fps is slightly slower in animation than the 60fps which to me in the games I play wouldn't really make a big difference.I can see somewhat wanting to have 60fps in a shooter while playing PvP but imo overall it really doesn't matter. I will still say some people can see difference in resolutions,like the difference of 1080p & 4k or 720p & 1080p..I know I can.

[rocketpanda]

If you can't tell the difference between 30 and 60 then you never have played at 60.

The difference is day and night.

[Vasto]

I can not see the difference in something so small as 900p vs 1080p.

30FPS / 60FPS I can see the difference instantly.

[madmonkey01]

I am with you, i can hardly notice a difference in frame rate, Rise of the tomb raider for example has an option to switch between resolution or frame rate on ps4 pro, but it feels exactly the same for me.

[Elda]

Thank you! But I can tell the difference between different resolutions.

[Takwin]

You are lying, blind, or dense.

1080p to 900p is difficult, but not impossible to notice. 4K is easy over 1080p and HDR is easy over all non-HDR.

But 60 fps > 30 fps is the easiest of anything to notice. It jumps out at you and a 5 year old could easily see it. As for 144 > 75, that I'm not so sure of. Once you get past 60 or 75, it does become harder, but I know that I can still tell a difference when something is running at 144 compared to a traditional 60.

[Elda]

Not all folks are technically incline to see the difference between 30fps & 60fps just as some folks can't see the difference in different resolutions.60fps is somewhat faster in animation than 30fps but that's it in my eyes.But in my eyes I can see the difference in resolutions from 720p to 4k..each bump up the image is defined sharper & clearer.

[Nathan_Hale53]

That is ridiculous.

I can see the difference in practically any game. On console, I can suck it up if I have too, but it does bug me if a game is locked at 30fps, especially since most games have awful motion blur to compensate. If a game allows me to unlock the frames, even for a few extra frames, then I enjoy it more.

Infamous Second Son for example, I see a massive difference between scenes when the frame rate is unlocked, or even when the frame rate is locked. Try locking and unlocking games that let you and you can really tell a difference. Dark Souls 1 and 3 are unplayable unless it is at around 60fps for me, which is why I have it on PC as the consoles drop below 30 often.

I have a 2k monitor, and I can't tell the difference between 900p/1080p unless it is side by side. 2k vs 1080p is a difference though, and so is 720 - 1080, but 900-1080 is not a big difference in motion, unless the frame rate is bad.

[Antarius717]

It's the overall feel I get between 30 and 60. I don't see a difference it just plays smoother. Maybe it's a placebo effect idk.

[ONESHOTV2]

wow I thought I saw everything a console P can spew lol so many wrongs

[dRanzer]

Oh cr+p not you again

[ONESHOTV2]

dRanzer--- well this is a gaming news site and I'm a gamer so why wouldn't i be here lol

[ShadowKnight]

😁😂

[XxINFERNUSxX]

60 not good enough for me anymore. Playing Overwatch as an example with FPS 120-144 @ 1080 max everything cannot compare to 60. All devs need to start making games with unlocked framerates period. 10 yrs ago 60fps 1080p was cool today not so much.

[ONESHOTV2]

same here I have a 165hz 1440p monitor so 60FPS is some of the past for me now it's either 100+ and nothing below http://imgur.com/FImgcDP

[XxINFERNUSxX]

Damn nice 165 fps :D. Also until games can reach 100+ at 4k res I will not upgrade. I will wait a few years in the mean time I might go 1440p GSYNC. I get disagrees because, maybe they can't see a difference, well there is a huge difference between 60 and say 120+

[tee_bag242]

Pretty much. 60 should have been he target last gen. 120+ is where it's at. 2017 ffs. Ain't no going back to 60 let alone 30.

[Yohshida]

Said no PC gamer ever

[Ju]

This article is so out of date. It won't be much more of a problem for the Pro or Scorpio than it is today for the XBO or the PS4 or any PC port. This might have been the case with a clock derived from the refresh at these older the platforms because this was indeed the most accurate clock in a games console back then. With the switch to HDMI that VSync completely went away and nobody in his right mind would design a game with a master clock derived from from the refresh rate these days. Timers are so much more accurate. Also with highly multithreading these days, this won't work anyway.

[rainslacker]

Maybe in the future, but many games still lock the frame rate to the game loop. While there is no real need to do this in a broad sense, it does lead to less time spent on optimizing both factors seperately. There are a lot of things that can crop up in the graphics and performance when you seperate the two, which is why many devs still keep them intrinsically linked.

[Ju]

Legacy engines maybe, but surely nothing one would design today.

[rainslacker]

All game engines today can do either way. What works for a particular game is really dependent on the game itself.

I think going forward, if console continue on a revolving upgrade cycle more like PC's then certainly we'll see less locking of the frame rates to the game loop.

There are pros and cons to both ways of doing it, and for some games, 30fps may be all the dev needs, and may prioritize the graphics, and locking can indeed make it easier to optimize.

We'll see I guess. I don't want to speak for all developers, because in all things programming, the answer is always, "it depends".

[Ju]

I don't know. If one can rely on a fixed clock, physics is usually more precise what I have seen so far. But if you'd start from scratch none would use a fixed clock interval anymore. Making this more dynamic might create some "wobble", or not have a fixed clock in one but in the other (which sometimes when making the refresh rate dynamic is easily missed). But in general, I don't see why one would put a const value as a base clock into an engine if you'd design this from scratch. One can also easily decouple states from the render loop which would impact controller response and precision. AI doesn't need to run at full framerate either. IMO a render loop should really only do that: render visual context to a screen.

[rainslacker]

True, but at the same time, the physics can run on the "fixed clock" while the framerate doesn't necessarily have to.

But it is highly dependent on the game, the nature of the physics, and how the rendering pipeline is defined. No one answer is really right.

[ziggurcat]

I always thought it was weird that when they doubled the frame rate in DS2 that the equipment degraded at twice the rate.

[Sm3000]

I know this won't be liked but I'm ok with steady 30fps. My eyes adjust to it. 60fps is great, of course, but I'm not gonna shoot down a game that's 30fps

[Ju]

Also, BTW, one can also sample controller data at a higher refreshrate than 33ms, even in 30fps games to make these games more responsive.

[rainslacker]

Stable is usually sufficient for me. While I can tell the difference, I've never found 30fps to be unacceptable in performance terms.

[mogwaii]

Being a console gamer all my life i didnt know what the big deal was with 60fps....until i actually got to experience it for myself and hell yeah it makes a big difference to the way games feel and play, my brother still does t get it cause he hasnt played any 60fps games himself, hopefully it becomes the norm next gen.

[NapalmSanctuary]

Most console games Ive played weren't below 60fps until the ps3/360 gen, when they started prioritizing pixels over performance with the onset of the HD era.

[Kokyu]

Breaks lots of movies and games from me as I can see the extra frame and it makes everything move unnaturally and makes it look like fastforward.

[VJGenova]

Durante's dsfix unlocked the resolution and frame rate for dark souls on pc. It came with a couple weird jumping glitches, but was totally worth it.

As for DS2 durability, I wouldn't call it "unexpected" on consoles as the pc version was "broken" from launch. I thought it was a new gameplay mechanic thay forced you to fight bisses with 3 different weapons. #gitgud if you will. Also made you have to equip them, which slowed you down, or learn to swap them faster (which is what I did). Again, worth it!

[bluefox755]

I don't think 30fps is going anywhere. Despite many of you being so staunchly in favor of 60fps, you can't deny the fact that most gamers just don't care that much. Don't you think the devs would be targetting 60fps if it were that big of a concern? Instead of just certain genres?

[Elda]

Agreed.

[Tetsujin]

The big problem is the majority here swear to 60 FPS and even calls off some games as examples. The first thing out of their mouth is graphics, or something visual-related; not one started off with game play, or something outside visual aspects.

The other problem is motion-sickness, which is a concern for a lot of gamers. Just because the majority can play at 60 FPS doesn't mean everyone can. And there's those few, "buy some motion sickness pills," or "you will get used to it after a while;" well guess what? It's been a few years, and I still can't play certain games because of it. Does it make me any different than them? No.

I'm happy at 30 FPS because it's been proven to work, whereas 60 is still being debated today for certain games. I'd rather have something that's proven to work with minimal to no headache, than have something 60+ and risk getting bugs, errors, or overheating.

[HeyNowChillax]

Games running at 60FPS look, feel and play better than 30FPS. It isn't up for debate and every time I see a developer say we locked it at 30FPS for cinematic effect, I just SMH. That being said, I prefer a locked and stable 30FPS in games rather than 60FPS with dips in framerate. IMO, stable 60FPS w/vsync 1080p should have been the goal this console gen and it's a thing of beauty when a dev has the finesse to achieves it. Titantfall 2 and Ps4 Pro patched NMS is a good example of this.

[rainslacker]

The look of a game has nothing to do with frame rate. In real world terms though, you can typically get better graphics at lower frame rates due to having half the load to actually render the frames, which is why frame rates tend to hit 30 more than 60.

[CrimzonRazor]

These arguments are dumb all you have to do is learn a little about the human eye to learn the TRUTH.

[GrimDragon]

Glass half full. Dipping frame rates equals cool slow mo.

[The_Sage]

I very well may be the only one here, but I don't like the way 60FPS looks. I understand that it's smoother for fast paced games, but give me the option to set it back to 30 for story driven games and I'll use it every time. I started playing The Last of Us remastered and couldn't hardly stand it until I found the option to turn off 60fps was there. 60fps made it look like a cartoon. All of the grit disappeared.

I'm the same way with tvs. The first thing I do when I get a new set is turn off interpolation. It causes everything to look like a soap opera and I can't stand it. Ruins movies, especially when you consider film runs at 24 frames per second.

[Elda]

When you mean it looks like a soap opera that it looks like it was filmed with a video camera (live) instead of a movie camera?For instance how talk shows & the news are filmed with video cameras but movie's & tv sitcoms are filmed with movie cameras.

[The_Sage]

Exactly. In my opinion, it makes it look cheap... I do have to say that sports look better with it on though, but I'm not one to watch sports.

[ocelot07]

Need For Speed Rivals on PC. It's locked to 30FPS. But if you unlock the FPS in the ini file. Sure you can get 60FPS but the game speeds up to like 3x so it's unplayable.

[AuToFiRE]

This article is fake. DS2 was locked at 30fps because of a microsoft deal to sell more consoles. Only when the lock affected the consoles did it get fixed

[pyroxxx]

What the hell is wrong with DKS2,..? If anything Remaster timings are easier because of faster framerate (It was always pretty shitty in comparisson to dks1, demon's Souls or bloodborne,.. 60 fps makes feel a bit better, but it is still very strange where in the animation are active parry frames,.. Bloodborne does is perfectly (especially pistol),.. DKS3,.. is pretty ok,.. You just have to adapt in DKS2, though It never felt very good to me, neither does DKS3. Still think Demon's Souls and Bloodborne feel the best. Still love all of them.

About glitches,.. yes It can happen even in DKS1 when you run it at 60 all the time,..(certain jumps are easier if you put it to 30 locked) but it is nothing gamebraking.

[Father__Merrin]

You can tell 30 V 60 fps, but for some reason an out an out 30fps title like Uncharted plays smooth but if you take a PC title and use rivia tuner to lock at 30 it seems unsmooth jaggy? Any idea why this is

[pyroxxx]

first off Uncharted has incredible motion blur implementation, also 30 fps is constant and the engine could probably run it more or less steady at well above 30 probably 30 is engines absolute minimum on PS4,.. Then there is heavy V-synced image and controller inputs VS Keyboard and mouse (where even some more or less 60HZ games can look and feel janky,.. just because of added precision)

Even if you lock it at 30 on pc,.. It really depends on frame pacing of the game,.. so yes it can feel wrong+ mouse just makes everything more apparent. Also depends on the game,..

Some say Bloodborne has terrible frame pacing,.. but it never really bothered me,.. Was more gobbsmacked on how on Earth does a machine render so many polygons in real-time,.. (and still am,.. Rocks in Nightmare frontier still blow my mind) You can definitly feel it plays smoother now on the pro.