Skyrim Remastered: Bethesda Defends $60 Price Tag, Pre-Load, And Language Support Detailed

Overpricing older games reissued as remasters or re-releases is an unfortunately common occurrence.

[NukaCola]

Lack of console cross save is an insta-no buy. BS Bethesda

[gameseveryday]

Are there any games that support cross save in a release which is separated by 5 years? (the original game was out in 2011).

[Kane22]

borderlands the handsome collection and diablo 3

[madmonkey01]

minecraft, ps3-ps4-vita,

[UltimateMaster]

I would buy it for 25$ but not full price 60$.
Server based games are going to include cross-saves for sure.

[rainslacker]

Maybe not five years, but FFX Remaster had it with a difference of about 2 years or so.

[C-H-E-F]

@Rashid
DC Universe Online

@TheKhurg
I will be boycotting this game until it hits a good price "USED" so they don't get a DIME from me haha. I normally do this with Call of duty games but hey.... Skyrim welcome to the boycott club. :D

[Muzikguy]

All these people are coming to you with games that did the cross save feature. I'd think someone running such an informative website would already know this stuff

[OldGuyStillGaming]

Skyrim is one game I want to start over from the beginning again..I'll definitely buy again but it will have to be at the inevitable price drop

[Jag-T1000]

I have a huge backlog! There is no time to replay a game. You only live once and time is against you.

[Shubhendu_Singh]

Is it just me or Bethesda is coming out as little co*cky in these past months, and weren't 100%.

Their Fallout 4 while being good was a step back from FalloutNewVegas.
Had the same engine and same codes (weapon clipping) from age old Skyrim.
Recently stole the entire F:NV mod and inserted it into the New Harbor DLC.

They still love their fans and cut above the rest of companies, but maybe it's time we stop seeing them as saints.
Todd Howard : "It Just Works!"

[seanpitt23]

What ever they are working on in the future it best be on a new engine that creation engine is so outdated and fallout 4 suffered because of it especially when the witcher 3 came out in the same year and ran rings around it in every department.

Some of them character models in fo4 was just not acceptable and at times it really looked like it was meant for the PS3 and Xbox 360 generation.

[thekhurg]

Bethesda is a modding studio to be perfectly honest. They aren't a true developer

[Dragonking007]

Ikr they acting like what they made was better than everything released in 2015 while got destroyed by witcher 3, mgs 5, and blood borne those games actually look like current gen standards. I might of let it slide if game released smooth state but it was really buggy and broken

[Forum_Pirate]

It was a step back from New Vegas because Obsidian made New Vegas. Those were many of the same people (though not the same company) who had already made Fallout 1 and 2, KotOR 2, Planescape Torment, Ice wind Dale and Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. Comparing anything Bethesdas creative talent is capable of to Tim Cain, Chris Avelone or Josh Saywer (among others) is always going to make bethesda look bad, because it makes everyone who isn't naughty dog or lucas arts look bad.

Morrowind is a singularly great game, especially in it's world building and storytelling (if not it's dialogue or reactivity compared to the greats of the time,) especially on so large a scale, but at this point I'm convinced it was a fluke or they lost some secret super talented designer nobody knows about, because they have failed miserably to replicate that.

[Big_Game_Hunters]

Problem is they have never been good devs. They've been releasing broken games since forever.

[Exvalos]

Oh man your old save cant be transferred? Agree, ppl have spent hundreds of hours, should be a way to port your file over wow I would have to start over? Lol not for that price tag

[_-EDMIX-_]

I mean....many might have not been planning to continue games anyway as that seems a bit strange.

[InTheZoneAC]

I can see why some would complain, but I would rather start over in this game.

[Kane22]

mod support lol. if they couldn't get the ps4 version of fallout 4 mods to run i would love to see how their gonna do it for skyrim...

[_-EDMIX-_]

...

Different game bud. Skyrim is less demanding then Fallout 4.

I'd imagine they would not have a hard time at all getting it work considering the jump from PS3 to PS4.

[Kane22]

lol its bethesda..ill wait and see

[Goldby]

still wouldnt be worth it as restrictions on mod size and compatability are an issue.

[InTheZoneAC]

meh, don't really care about mods, bruh

GOML

[raWfodog]

It will be a joke when/if the PS4 version releases with a bunch of game-breaking bugs like it did for the PS3. If Bethesda every releases a PS title that is on-par (performance-wise) with the XB version, I will be genuinely and pleasantly surprised.

Edit: But I know this article is focused on the price and I have no problem with it releasing at full price with all of the DLC included. If I want it, I will just do what I always do and wait for the price to drop eventually.

[-Foxtrot]

If the PS4 version is just as buggy as the PS3 version despite it being a new, easier console to develop for, something they said they wish the PS3 was which was their main excuse for the horrible version people got then they are done...it's going to cause a shit storm.

[thekhurg]

It'll be just as good as Fallout 4 was. Oh wait, that game had problems too... Nevermind.

[Kane22]

i do cause the pc guys get it for free while console have to fork up $60 and that's if the ps4 version actually runs decently well. cause we all know how much bethesda "love's" making playstaion games..

[FPS_D3TH]

Whoops wrong reply

[frostypants]

They have no excuse to complain about the PS4. It's architecturally similar to a PC. And since it's a console, it's a single hardware target, so it should actually be easier.

[InTheZoneAC]

pc players don't get it for free. They bought the game for pc and are getting a free patch, just like any other game that offers "free" patches.

Had bethesda not been retarded and offered skyrim as a downloadable game on the playstation store they could have offered a discount on the ps4 upgrade. I'll never understand why Fallout and Skyrim failed to show up as downloadable games...

[Kane22]

@InTheZoneAC
I highly doubt Bethesda would've done anything like that for consoles even if fallout and skyrim were available for download. also, skyrim has been out since 2011..meaning a lot of pc gamers most likely bought the game cheap as all hell. which still doesn't justify charging full price for a 5yr old game to console only players.....

[Nathan_Hale53]

Hope you know the issue with the PS3 was because it was on a really weird architecture right?

[BlackTar187]

So does that explain all the issues witht he PS4 Fallout?

[FPS_D3TH]

Completely seperate problems.

[Nathan_Hale53]

What issues? Nothing near as bad as the PS3 and the game ran better than the Xbox version.

[FPS_D3TH]

That was the ps3s garbage RAM allocations problem. The game ran fine on 360 as the console dedicated most of its ram to the game. PS3 only allowed half. It won't happen with ps4. It has like 50x more than the old available RAM

[Perjoss]

Forget getting a perfect working game from Bethesda Game Studios, its just not something they are capable of. To be honest though I can totally handle a buggy game as long as its not stuff that is too game breaking, but the boring combat in Beth games just puts me to sleep. I used to love their games but so many games have come out with really fun combat systems since Fallout 3 and they have just been left way behind in that department.

[ScorpiusX]

Cool bring it

[souldestroyer14]

Nope. No reason this should be 60 dollars. 40 maybe but even then I wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't even buy it for 20 bucks.

[Ark_]

Well I think 20 bucks for some updated graphics seems reasonable. Modders allready did better work on this game in their free time, but since they need to pay their people and want to earn some money ... well, like I said, 20 seems reasonable to me.

[Spyroo]

PC owners get it free. On console I won't buy it no more than 20-30.

[thekhurg]

$19.99 the perfect price for a five year old game with all DLC.

[jmc8888]

Exactly I can't complain because I get it free.

I'm also pretty sure it will get discounts pretty quickly. I don't think this will be a game that is still $60, 9 months after release.

[PSN_ZeroOnyx]

I'm still waiting on GTAV to reach $30 or less on disc. I paid $60 for my PS3 copy of GTAV and refuse to pay mor than $30 for a second copy. Skyrim is no different, full price the first time, half price the second time.

[Bradk721]

$40 is the perfect price. That's about the price I'll be paying after selling back a game to get that in store discount. It's definitely going to be worth more than $20 unless it's completely unplayable.

[_-EDMIX-_]

Then continue not to buy it.

The game has moved HUGE units and clearly he team knows the value of their IP. To say "40 maybe" is to say at a price you will buy it, thus they don't care. Buy it later on, they could care less.

I don't even get saying "wouldn't even buy it for 20 bucks" why is "40 maybe" then? LOL! You do know what the word "maybe" means right?

[souldestroyer14]

Yea I know what the word maybe means, jerk off. Just because the price is more reasonable at 40 doesn't mean I would buy it.

[_-EDMIX-_]

? Lol then why do you say $40 maybe and then go on to say $20 you wouldn't even purchase it? Lol

I just don't understand why you would give any hint at purchasing it based on price only to inevitably say you wouldn't purchase it regardless of price.... just say you want to purchase it and move on I see no reason to go back and forth split hairs and all this other bizarre spinning.

Maybe I'll purchase it at $40 , but absolutely I would never purchase it even if its at $20....

Does that sound like it makes sense to you?

[souldestroyer14]

That's doesn't make sense. It's also not what I said. I said it shouldn't be 60 it should be 40.I never said I would buy it just said what I think the price should be.

[_-EDMIX-_]

"That's doesn't make sense" Its not suppose to bud, just like "40 maybe but even then I wouldn't buy it. I wouldn't even buy it for 20 bucks" Um "doesn't make sense"

""40 maybe"

yet

"wouldn't even buy it for 20 bucks"

Soooo you are right, what you stated makes no sense. How can $40 be "maybe" if you um "wouldn't even buy it for 20 bucks"?

SO you would think about it if it was "$40" yet wouldn't even buy it even if it was $20?

Buddy..its easier to just say you misspoke and under consideration would not buy it at all regardless of price.

vs

$40 maybe, $20 never lol

[souldestroyer14]

You're an idiot I'm done with you

[NohansenBoy]

As a PC player I feel for the console people. This is strait up garbage on Bethesda's part.

[thekhurg]

It's Bethesda. This is completely normal for them. Overprice their content then abandon it once they feel they've done enough regardless of the quality of their game at that moment.

[exkalibur97]

honestly i played this game and didnt even enjoy it the first time around. a no buy for me

[yeahright2]

Yeah their games do come off as a bit... soulless I guess is the right term. for my taste, they have a ton of content, it's just that I don't have a good time playing any of it. I got all the achievements for Oblivion and I think the only time I enjoyed myself was during the dark brotherhood side quest which is like 5% of that game. So yeah, passed on the original release and I'll pass on the remaster.

[wsoutlaw87]

The problem I have is that you spend all this time in combat and getting weapons for combat, then their combat is simplistic garbage. Also you do all this stuff in the world and the world doesn't react to you at all. the world is just good enough, to feel like it could have been so much better.

[yeahright2]

@Brad, to see what their justification was for charging full price because it could set a precedent for other developers thinking it's ok as long as their games were popular enough.

[Tdmd]

Good for them! And I defend buying it used a few months after launch.

[_-EDMIX-_]

Lol you're right to if you truly feel that way. I was going to purchase this game at launch but just have way too many games to play, so I'm going to purchase it later on used but once I decide to purchase something after its release you better damn well believe I'm looking for that used discount and the absolute best lol

What's funny is it's an extreme thin line from getting it full price to getting it dirt cheap used simply based on timing.

It's just launching around the time lots of other big titles are releasing and I cannot justify replaying a game for the fourth time with brand new releases coming out so if I'm going to put it on the back burner for a few months there's no reason for me to purchase it new after the fact.

It is just unfortunate based on its timing but I think it's probably going to do really well and probably chart really high regardless I don't really think they have anything to worry about.

[KimikoGaming]

As much as I want to play Skyrim with mod support and better visuals on a console, I'll wait for it to be at least $30 or less before I buy it.

[InMyOpinion]

Bethesda are more and more starting to remind me of Capcom.

[INMATEofARKHAM]

Sadly, it's still going to sell like hotcakes...

[_-EDMIX-_]

Why is that sad? All the more money to make Elder Scrolls 6!

[souldestroyer14]

It's sad because this gen is a joke. A huge portion of games this gen are just last gen games and sequels. And if it sells well for 60 bucks what's to stop other companies from doing this.

[GrimDragon]

Iam sorry but that's way too much for an old game despite the touch ups. It's not like the entire game had to be rebuilt from the ground up and figure out where the story should go, how to market it and hire all kinds of people to work on this game because the whole future of the studio depends on it. This was an option as was the option to reasonably price it. But this is not the only game to be priced well over 40 dollars. Sacred 3, gears of war, red dead redemption etc all suffer from the same name recognition equals price inflation. Sadly I bought the original at launch and finished it. So I won't be filling bethesda coffers with an additional 65 dollars just for nostalgia. Or any other game that is priced this way. This could only benefit those who never played it. Funny I bought both star wars games for five dollars a piece and thought all BC games would be along the 5-20 range but I see that's not the case. Purchase with caution.

[Bradk721]

This is when it's good to have games that u don't play...I will be selling back a game to get a good $25-$30 in store credit to go towards Skyrim. I even got a brand new game for free this year bc I had enough gamer points from buying and reselling games. GameStop is where I go and I hear there are even better places out there for discounts.

[_-EDMIX-_]

I think it's only good if you have a good system going and you finish games often similar to even GameFly but I usually take a while with some of my games and have a large backlog and usually prefer to keep and hold on to many of my games as I like to collect them to each his own..

By the way I also Envy lots of Gamers that are able to finish and complete games in Fast Times as I just don't have all the time that I used to these days.

[corroios]

Not really. Nope, não...

[Rikuide_Furame]

I'm a console gamer who only recently put together a gaming PC. Bought Skyrim cheap and proceeded to mod it to my heart's content. To see what they're charging $60 for, when compared to the what you can do with the PC version, is pretty laughable. Really is the remaster generation.

[ziggurcat]

does it come with all of the DLC?

[Yui_Suzumiya]

Yes

[Livecustoms]

No way can you even try to defend this price tag.

[CrimsonWing69]

Yea I'll wait for a price drop

[Psychonaut85]

Greedy bulls#%t, plain and simple. I enjoy Bethesdas games, but I'm tired of them gettin free passes on behaviors that other developers get criticized for.

[windblowsagain]

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

That's the old comparison.

I got bored of the game.

Witcher 3 and Dark souls are much better games.

[cfc83]

I'd be a hypocrite for being overly critical considering i bought gtaV again. From recolllection i think it was full price on 'new gen' consoles. What is unfair is that pc players get a free update. So i'd certainly not buy it because of that. Plus bethesdas dlc practices for fallout were not to my liking. So i'm out.

[iluvmaPS3]

On the fence. I want to buy it because it's Skyrim but my brain says no. Should we not buy ES6 on day one and instead wait for the definite version years later? Tired of spending over 200 dollars on one game.

[Kokyu]

Releasing a 5yr old game at 60$ is plain BS doesnt matter what the reasoning is.

[Lazyeye79]

Any information on the loading times for the PS4. Will it be much better than the PS3 or what. Really want to replay this game, but don't want to be stuck with all the loading.

[Tankbusta40]

What did they add to this game that justifies a 60 release price? is it just upscaled graphics and frame rate or am I missing something?

[souldestroyer14]

And the ability to add content other person create

[Boog_89]

I would absolutely love to replay Skyrim again but I will not buy if they don't get mods working, I want access to the unofficial patch that PC users made to fix the hundreds of bugs Bethesda is too lazy to bother doing. Plus I would like better magic variety .... no mods = no sale, mods = super happy.

[antikbaka]

it's free for PC...

[JamesBroski]

Pete Hines being Pete Hines

[Mrveryodd]

The price will drop in a couple of months.

[quent]

Should be priced similar to scholar of the first sin when it came out, bit still, the release gap between skyrim and this "remastered" version is much larger, will come down to how much has been improved in visuals and in performance/stability, the original froze like crazy on console(my ps3)

[MilkMan]

Cant defend it. Its BS. Later for volumetric god rays

[lunatic0001]

The thing is I already supported them by buying the game and all of its dlc which they made lots of money and I mean lots of it...can't they repay their fans back by releasing it for at least 40 bucks as an appreciation for making skrim on of the best selling games ever

[crazed_shadow27]

Completely agree. Especially considering probably 70% who do buy it have already bought it before.

[OneLove]

Damn Bethesda you're the worst for this.

[Yui_Suzumiya]

I don't understand why everyone is whining so much. This is a huge game with all the DLC. I never played it so I'll definitely give it a shot at some point. Due to the content alone, I see $60 as a bargain.

[crazed_shadow27]

People like you are why gaming has turned into crap in recent years. They accept everything without questioning it. People keep saying ohh its no big deal....and every time the companies try to see how much they can push and get away with.

Like a person above said, they barely did anything. Only updated the graphics. No work on making the engine, graphics, or gameplay, or writing the story, everything has just been sitting there done for them already. It's insulting to game developers who need to make an engine, figure out the design and graphics, gameplay and story, etc (who's brand new game would be $60).

A new copy of Skyrim with all the DLC is $20 on Amazon. This crap should be no more than $30-40. Especially considering that an estimated 70% who buy it have already bought it once before. Anyone that wanted it would have bought it within the past 5 years, so only a minority would be newcomers.

[Yui_Suzumiya]

I'm the minority then. I'm more of a Fallout person anyways. Oblivion and ESO bored me so I never tried this but I'm willing to give it a shot if all the bugs are ironed out.

[BlackTar187]

Solid i can only guarantee you one thing and that is that this game will still have a ton a bugs. If you are getting it on PS4 then you'll have twice as many bugs as Xbox but you'll still have bugs no matter where you play it.

I would suggest PC to play it or xbox Beth hates PS and they show zero care about the product they release to the PS community so i'd stay away on PS4 if i were you.

[Yui_Suzumiya]

It's interesting you mentioned that though because Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 were Day 1 purchases on PS3 and PS4 and I never had any serious issues except for Point Lookout DLC in Fallout 3.

[crazed_shadow27]

Shame on you Bethesda

[ILostMyMind]

There will be multiplayer mode and compatibility with PS VR?

[JokerBoy422]

What did you guys expect? They lost alot of money by giving it to PC for free so console gamers literally have to "pay the price."

[Bradk721]

Good thing I have GameStop lol. I won't pay more than $30 for my copy. That's if I don't even have any gamer points. If I do it'll be even cheaper than that. $40 should've been the price tag to begin w though. $60 feels like a weed dealer taxing his clients lol. Why get it for 60 from u when the guy down the street has the same thing for 50? That's how it feels w this...

[UncertainCategory]

It's a good game, and the mod support on console, as well as the updated graphics options that go beyond a simple resolution boost are certainty appreciated.

Still it's disappointing that PC users are getting the same experience for free if they already purchased the game, where consoles are left to foot at $60 bill for the privilege.

$40 would have been more fair.

But then again, it's going to sell loads of copies, so the market will justify the price, shame really.

[Kane22]

sounds great...but Bethesda an anything PlayStation doesn't go together...just look at every game they have made themselves starting with ps3...

[susanto1228]

So far 3 of my friends are buying it and so is my son for his Xbone without a doubt it will sell and restarting it is no big deal I've gone through my PC version about 10 times already restarts so what.

[thelwebb100]

I already put over a hundred hours when this first came out so I'll pass.

[ikarodemon]

My favorite game! Ever! But $60 is absurd for this old game.
Its not a true remaster anyway. No high polygon chars, no modern visual effects, no new quests.
Is more like the "ultimate" same game.

[ILostMyMind]

"Mods" for consoles lose their meaning when when trophies/achievements are not allowed. Bethesda should evaluate when "mod" compromises the game. If not, then they should not block the trophies/achievements.

[Donjune]

It's obvious that some of you frown upon the game. So why bother rant like infants! Ijs

[Trekster_Gamer]

Should be no more than 40. IMHO

[DaDrunkenJester]

Ugh I hate these remaster cash grabs unless it's TLoU, GTAV, Injustice....

[Condemnedman]

you don't have to buy it. they can price it at what they want anyone who does not want to pay the price stop moaning and get it when the price drops.

[titans9999]

I Love this game and I love Bethesda! I have this on pc(and of course I am going to download the free remastered version) and on ps3, and I cant wait to have it on ps4 as well!!! I don't understand all the hate, even at 60$ I work and get paid for a living so day one buy for me!!!!!

[Mithan]

They should charge whatever people are willing to pay. Don't buy it if its too expensive and quit whining already.

[GeraltOfRevia]

They probably brought back all the bugs so we can experience the game the way it was originally released.

[Godmars290]

Very simple response to the $60 price: don't buy it. Enough people do that and they'll have no choice but lower the price.

[susanto1228]

Game should also be 39.99 not 59.99 and everyone should have to pay for it.

[Herbalistic]

I'll pick the game up for cheap a few months after release on Amazon or some other online shop

[TC731]

lol I got Skyrim on pc for $5 and can make it look much better than the $60 remaster.

[BoneMagnus]

It's a single player game - no rush to get it - wait until the price drops. Which seems to happen rather quickly on these remasters.

[aquaticDonut]

It's funny because you can get the legendary edition on Pc on sale for like $15. And upgrade for free.

[Petebloodyonion]

1 st rule of business : when you state what you want then there's a good change you will get what you ask for.

Ps4 owners clearly stated that they were more then happy to pay for remaster at high price, seconds serving, Themes, Background and BC. How often did they defended this practice that remaster cost something to do and if you want to play your old game then plug your Ps3.

Well PC players never accepted to pay for the extra graphics setting, Internet play, and repay the game because you change OS.

So guess what?
Console players get to pay because they like paying
and PC get it for free because PC players knows that a extra resolution option with a frame bump from a video card doesn't equal work on a new product.

[Zockaholik]

So I guess we get the way prettier version for neo and scorpio for free in the future, if we buy this...

[RenegadeRocks]

Bethesda will always defend overpriced games....they will go even further and jack th eprice up near the launch like their season pass :P !

[Artemidorus]

Only a complete tool will pay this. Force them to discount it by not buying.

[SynestheticRoar]

Never saw the fascination with this game. Definitely not worth 60 dollars.

[TheSaint]

Defend it all you want Beth, still not buying until it's half that, won't take long.

[Elda]

Folks shouldn't support this type of robbery 30 maybe 40 dollars for a 5 year old game remastered in 1080p anything older shouldn't be no more than 20 dollars.

[ShadowKing-]

looking forward to playing this on ps4,, but i will wait for a sale or price drop. holiday season is only a few months away so i will pick it up then.

[plissken731]

This is a must buy for me but I'm definitely gonna wait till it drops to $40. A good percentage of "remasters" always drop in price.

[DivineAssault]

Ill wait for a price drop then

[Yukonsbud]

I love Skyrim but i'm not paying no $60 for it! Esp with all these new games coming out soon.

[Mr_Writer85]

But is mod support also on PS4?

I mean they already running into problems with mods on Fallout 4 PS4.

If they do get mods working on Skyrim then questions re FO4 have to be asked.

If they don't get them working on Skyrim either than the PS4 version will be lacking.

[Reefskye]

Funny when games like TLOU got remastered even though the game was what just over a year old? I didn't see anyone moan about that.

The real reason people don't like it is because PC gamers get it free.

[Mr_Writer85]

Because TLOU wasn't multiplatform, so those who never had a PS3 could enjoy a fantasic game.

There were plenty of PS3 owners who wanted TLOU for free but didn't get their way and they were upset.

So please don't pretend that TLOU remaster didn't get stick because it did.

[Vlaitor]

The 60$ price tag is not worth it. We have experienced this game to it's full potential already. I don't see the point of paying that amount of money on a game that has revamped graphics that does not come close to the modding community. It's for me a really lazy work and a money grab from Bethesda. If they added quests, magic scaling, new features such as building your own guild or what not I wouldn't be too radical but with the current package I can't be thinking this as a good investment. Stay away from this dusty product.

[Night99]

This game should be 20 at most, they are insane to demand 60 on consoles for a 5 year old game with slight enhancements and guys on PC get it for free. Everyone who buys this at 60 is really a complete moron.

[Drithe]

I'll pass until the game is 5 bucks. Jesus the PS 4 is the home of the retreads. lol

[RyanShutup]

Will buy when it drops to $30 ... they're crazy if they think they can release a 6 year old remaster of a game for $60. GTFO Bethesda.

[frostypants]

If it was a remaster of a relatively new game, OK. But Skyrim is older than dirt now. This is ridiculous.

[r3f1cul]

bethesda is quickly demonizing themselves in the gaming world as of late... and honestly i have no defense for them... i cant even play devils advocate anymore... they are just falling off on all sides sadly... fallout 4 fell short in too many ways for me to call it a great game, the dlc offerings have been an absolute disgrace and the only proper dlc they put out was literally stolen from a modders work and ideas on a past fallout... $60 for a shinier skyrim with mods (which dont really work that great IMO, and not to mention dont even work at all yet on ps4, right? ) and then the pc gets it for free (which i guess they should if anyone on pc actually wants it for whatever reason that could possibly be) but thats a pretty big spit in the face given no discount at all for past buyers on console which despite the modding community on beth games is still their bread and butter :/ what a sham