Microsoft vetoed a black woman on cover for Fable II

Ex-Lionhead art director recalls marketing department "just didn't get it," insisted on a white male for Xbox 360 RPG.

[Z501]

Sad.

EDIT: (I didn't want to just s**t on MS)
After reading a bunch of comments saying it's "demographics" not racism. Coupled with (from article) "They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog"

A couple questions arose.
1. People didn't like Princess and the Frog because the lead was black? How do they know this? source/proof
2. If people didn't like Princess and the Frog because the lead was black. Isn't that sorta racist/bigoted itself?
3. "We know what sells" - How would they know? Focus groups? What would someone in a focus group have to say? 'I don't like that cover because it's a black female' Isn't that sorta racist/bigoted too?

I've personally haven't played Fable 2, but I was under the impression that you could create your character OR alter the character appearance/gender. If not, then this ISN'T racist/bigoted on MS part.
BUT... If it's true that people/gamers won't buy a game because there's a black female on the cover. What does that say about said "demographic"???

How many people do you guys know have admitted they're racist? I assume, none to not many. That must mean racist don't exist, right? Think about it.

The "Sad" part is, the MS guy basically said 'A huge portion of our audience won't buy this game JUST BECAUSE there's a black female on the cover'

[Retroman]

Know thy truth and it Shall set you free indeed.

and they say Discrimination do not exist anymore.

what difference do it make what race on the cover jacket money still green.

Fable 2 will have less sales because person of color on FRONT cover really???

here it is 2016 we still have hatred of a human being color no matter how hard that person learn his/her craft,skill,trade still treated like mud, wages still lower than white co-worker with SAME education level.
in the white world a color person is good long as he has a bat,basketball,football in his hands, tell stale jokes as a comedian.
other than that he's a non-factor body to the white race there are people of color everywhere around the world but according to the "white race" there is!!! no other race but the white race. as a child watching tv Wild kingdom with Marlon Perkin, National geographic countries around the world all i seen was Europeans except occasionally Africans in Africa but portray as (SAVAGES) uneducated wild men. but... as i mature and learnt the REAL Savages are (white americans). you see it in classic western cowboy movies. disguise as indians, "REAL" indians in background while white americans dress,painted red as Indians in fore-front making real indians look bad as savages. "REAL Indians" are peaceful,love nature,love people,helpful, beautiful spirit. POWWOW is awesome. Asian people,Chinese,Japanese people,Haitians,Africans,Somal ians afro-americans did not exist in my mine back in the day no broadcast co. would show anyone of color on tv back in the 60's all this from "MY" experience. so, people of color dont exist in leading role in video games nor in movies........................ . . ....it is WHAT it is and how it is,and always will be that way. those of you think im closed minded think again...........YOU ARE to truth and facts of life.

all 69 disagree is white gamers 26 non white gamers agree.............see discrimination is alive on here as well.

if you cant speak your mind why be alive??
if i said i was white would my disagrees change?? probably!
white americans "CAN'T see the truth with white privilege that others don't have or born with.

im a Asian

truth be known

[Lord_Sloth]

I'm sorry but isn't the hero of Fable 2 white no matter what? Why would the cover sport a black character to represent a white hero? That actually doesn't make sense.

I don't agree that a black character would negatively impact sales but in this case it's kind of false advertising.

[thekhurg]

LMAO

Who cares. Video game cover.

[BrandanT]

If race doesn't matter to anyone, then why do people care if he/she is white, black, yellow, red, brown, or polka dot for God's sake!

[343_Guilty_Spark]

@Lord_Sloth

Pretty sure with a black female on the cover, the game's character would be black and female.

[zeuanimals]

@lord_sloth:

You realize you're able to choose between different sexes for your character, meaning they could also allow you to change the race of the characters as well.

And to the people who are saying it'd be discriminating against white people if they put a black character on the cover instead, did you even read the article? The devs were told that it has to be a white male on the cover. There were heated arguments about this. They were told "no black people on the cover", "it's not what sells, just look at the most unsuccessful Disney movie of all time, The Princess and the Frog". But no, apparently that's not discrimination. But simply putting a black person on the cover? Apparently that's discrimination to you.

[JackBNimble]

@ gt67
You are just as much of a Bigot as any other racist out there , and what you said is highly offensive .

[sammarshall102]

I couldn't care less who is on the cover just make the game good

[Alexander1Nevermind]

How can we embrace diversity without actually being diverse,,,,,, Shame on a major company like MS if this is true.

[Kingthrash360]

I've been black my entire life.
What I've seen from the perspective of being black in america:
1.Every race has racist people.. black white hispanics Asians ...no matter what there are idiots in all races.
2. Blacks suffer from racism the most. That's just fact. I can't count how many times I was falsly accused of stealing or followed in stores or pulled over or refused seating in restaurants.....alot...Like at least one of these twice a week alot.
3. Blacks don't care. It become the normal sadly. Living here in America where you were born and raised but still get looked at like you don't belong are the norm. We are ok with it. We feel bad for racist people missing out on how awsome other races are.

That said...so whaaaaatt! This would have matter more back when it was first released or before...but now? Like a decade later? So what. Racism is alive and well sadly but I see tons of improvement in all people in the US...all I ask is keep the RACIST BS OUT OF MY GAMING LIFE!

[stuna1]

People talking about People don't think!? Here's something to think about! Maybe the black woman on the cover was the antagonist???

[CrimzonRazor]

Your a idiot

[SonyWarrior]

i know i personally wouldnt buy a game with a minority on the cover. the cover should be used to promote what the game is about not about being politically correct.

[iTechHeads]

Not really. How many black women do you think play video games? Its is surely a very small amount compared to the typical white male gamer that plays games.

Its not racism. Its catering to the games biggest potential audience.

[jholden3249]

^^^^ This

True equality is true reprentation of the audience. Pull up the stats on how many Fable gamers are black women. Doubt it's even close to a majority. It's not about race, it's about who is buying and playing the game.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

Oh so that's why most game leads are white males. They're just catering to the majority and ignoring the rest of the human race. I get it now. Makes so much sense. Just like movies. And awards. And advertisements. And job promotions.

..............

[BrandanT]

Kwiet, affirmative action says hi.

[Erik7357]

Pretty sure sims had gay marriage before fable 2 but idk

[DragonKnight]

What's sad is A) Current year arguments and B) That suits and representation ideologues are still so out of touch with actual gamers that they are not yet aware that we couldn't give a rat's a$$ about who is on the cover.

Is the game good? Then we'll find out and buy it, never once caring about box art UNLESS it's a Collector's Edition, then we care for money purposes only.

And for games with character creation, either go the way of Soulsborne and have a generic, androgynous, fully armored protagonist on the cover; or put multiple characters of varying ethnicities, genders, or races on the cover. That would be accurate to the game.

Either way, stop feeding the SJWs because they never shut up about it and then we end up getting TrigglyPuff.

https://youtu.be/4uPXZG304d...

[Spenok]

Doing the research of about 2 min... it turns out Howl's Moving Castle is their worst performer, although that's a technicality, as they didn't make it, only help produce it for the states. If we're talking about actual Disney made properties, Teacher's Pet from 2004 makes this list, at 6.5 million on a 10 million budget.

Now how about we delve a little further and look at one of their actually well known movies. The rescuers down under fits this bill, although there are several other disney properties that fit this bill truly. The Princess and the Frog did quite well for itself, finishing currently at ~100 million.

NOW on to MS. Even if the statement were true, they have every right to decide what goes on the cover of their games, regardless of what that reason is. If what they said is true, it's actually not racist of THEM to say that, but racist of the consumers who wouldn't buy it for that reason.

To 'try' and answer your question.

1) I've no idea, but it's BS based on the info I gave above. I'm an adult white male and I enjoyed that movie.
2) Technically no, the definition of racist is to believe one race is superior to another. So not liking it because she's black doesn't make you a racist UNLESS you hold the view of blacks being of a lesser race at the same time. This answer could get ridiculously long to be fair, but I'll leave it at bigoted fits the bill of what you described more.
3) Focus groups would be one of the answers, sales history of their own, and rival companies. However the second part of your question is entirely irrelevant to the first part, as Disney isn't responsible for what focus groups would say.

To answer another part of your comment you were able to fully customize your character, to include gender and race.

Long story short on this whole article, it was written to create controversy over something LONG past, and ridiculous. This website that very few have ever heard of cherry picked this portion of the interview from Eurogamer just to piss people off. Racism exists on a personal level, plain and simple.

[thorstein]

Princess and the Frog:
Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $104,400,899 39.1%
+ Foreign: $162,644,866 60.9%
= Worldwide: $267,045,765

Doesn't sound too shabby to me. It is a great film. I watched it with my white wife, white kids, and white self. Why wouldn't I, it is a great film.

Sorry I didn't stay segregated like I was supposed to, 'merica.

BTW Assassin's Creed Liberation (Black Woman on cover and protagonist) is considered a success.

[BrandanT]

I guess it represents the majority: a white male. The only demographic that is not considered a minority.

[zb1ftw777]

And the demographic that is most discriminated against.

[BrandanT]

So true, the whole equality argument is a bunch of bull. It's more like role-reversal. What's a man suppose to do when everything is potentially racist?

I'm honestly scared of applying for colleges. I'm a white guy, and the whole affirmative action thing makes it harder to get into a better school. Even if my life is worse off than that of a minority.

[Zeref]

white male the most discriminated against? how ignorant...

[game4funz]

Agreed. If you mistreat a white person being white... Everything is fine.
If you mistreat a black person being white yourself.... All hell breaks loose.

Same goes now with all kinds of things like homosexuality etc... Nothing will happen if you mistreat someone based on religion their religion especially if their Catholic.... Unless of course they're Muslim.... Then all hell breaks loose again....

Lots of discrimination against the ones assumed to be doing the discriminating.

[Silly gameAr]

This is a joke, right?

[FunkyBoy]

Boo hoo buddy, this only been happening for the past couple years and I admit it's been going to far. But u guys only been scratching the surface. I'm Asian lived mostly in southern states, TN, KY, and IN. Experienced this throughout my life thanks to most media and most white people in general. Not so fun is it

[Trez1234]

You must be joking with that statement

[OverdosedWitDopeness]

Lol are u serious? So many closet racists in the N4G gaming community from looking at the agrees to disagrees SMH.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

It's depressing that this society has twisted your mind so much to believe what you just said.

[SirJohnnyVincent]

haha you have no idea what discrimination is do you?

[BrandanT]

Exactly, people do not even care enough to hear out my story. My god, are you all so close minded to not even give my words some credence.
It's like back in the day when black didn't have much of a voice, but I guess everyone will just see me as some damn privileged white regardless of situation.

[UnwanteDreamz]

This is typical and sad. Victims of descrimination? Do you pathetic people have any sense of history? Brandan T you think affirmative action keeps you down? It was the answer to descrimination. Blame the generations that came before us for treating minorities like less than human beings. You do realise that minorities were kept from enough opportunity that the federal gov had to make laws to help. So entrenched in racial hatred and nepotism that is the history of my nation. Equality a joke? Everything Racist? You sound like an extremist who lives in a bubble. My only solace is knowing your mindset is becoming so irrelevant that hopefully in another generation or two it might be seen for what it is. Ignorant racebaiting covert racial predudice.

To the other commenters above who also took issue with this. N4G is a reflection of gaming demographics. White males make up the majority. I'm cool with that and have been my entire life but you wont have a meaningful discussion on race issues here. What you will get is the kind of race baiting Sharpton would admire.

Just remember that these kinds of sentiments are becoming more rare. They will get louder in their deaththrows but the outcome is worth the annoyance .

[BrandanT]

Closet racist? What the hell is with the slander and libel?
I just hate laws that give anyone else a better advantage. All I want is for everyone in this world to have equal playing ground. I wish everyone saw each other eye to eye. I don't like gender and ethnic related scholarships, I don't like how men get the short end of the stick with women in courts, and I don't like how women still need to ask for equal wages even after all this time.

You know why I don't care for race? Martin Luther King Jr. Said it best. "Judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character."

[UnwanteDreamz]

@Brandan

As long as you continue to ignore facts history and context then I would say closet bigot. Not racist. I know white people experience discrimination and it's wrong but perpetuation of the myth that white people are just as or more discriminated against is not helping anyone yourself included.

I hope you get into the college you deserve. I hope that you don't rush to blame affirmative action if you don't. You may see affirmative action as something that lets people "cut in line" but it was created to let people in the line. What you see as preferred treatment others see as lvling the playing field. I hope to see it disappear too one day because it is not needed.

[BrandanT]

But I'm not trying to ignore history. I just see that we're such a progressed society since then. I'm just in high school and I could easily see that in this generation everyone seem to see each other as equal. It's starting to look like everyone has mutual love for one of another.
I just think these laws are starting to have less of place now. I know why they were needed then, but so much has changed in the decades since.

I'd be happy to actually share my story with anyone who will pm me.

[UnwanteDreamz]

@Brandan

I think we agree on that then. Your generation is so much more tolerant then my own. I see it in my own highschool aged kids. Some of the protections given to minorities are outdated some of the laws are becoming unnecessary. I do hope I haven't come off as a person that doesn't understand that it can be hard to be white in todays society. I don't envy the flak sometimes thrown your way. It's wrong to judge people on skin color afterall.

I just think more understanding and less pointing fingers about who has it worse is what's needed. I wish you the best.

[BrandanT]

I apologize as well. I always had trouble coming off as too blunt, and maybe that's why I don't always seem reasonable.

[MagicBeanz]

Not for long.

[SonyWarrior]

not considered a minority because they make up like 80-90% of the population in the us.... its simple math really

[BrandanT]

That's not considering children, right?

[NotanotherReboot]

getting sick of microsoft's s***

[jb227]

Yeah they are great at making shady moves, glossing over details to get fans & media to fill in best case scenario ideas behind them, only for the real truth to come out months later to be swept immediately under the rug.

Case in point: IGN has an article up with details on the Lionhead closure (that for some reason doesn't seem to be submitted to N4G even though it is more interesting than half of the recent news on the site)...the article says that MS receiving tons of letters of intent from publishers wanting to buy & save Lionhead, but MS refused all offers because these publishers reasonably wanted the IP Fable to go along with it. Ok, fair enough, it's MS' ip to do as they please, so if they'd rather leave the flesh & blood people out to dry in order to hang onto a property that they may never do anything with, that's their prerogative.

Where it gets really fishy is the Legends fiasco. I saw tons of MS supporters on here saying that it's Lionhead's fault the studio is closing because they decided to go the Free to Play route which resulted in a game that Fable fans didn't want...they wanted a proper sequel. When I suggested that maybe Lionhead didn't have a say in the matter, I was told that I'm crazy, that MS gives devs ALL the freedom. Well today we found out that Lionhead wanted to make Fable 4...they had a story & characters & art all ready to go, made the pitch to MS, and MS refused it, shooting it down because they said that they wanted Lionhead to be going the "games as service" route, hence Legends.

So ultimately the scenario that myself & a few others suggested, that MS forced Lionhead into making a game they didn't want to make, only to turn around & cancel the game & close the studio when said game turned out poorly. So that's definitive proof that Lionhead's closure was no fault of their own, it was clearly a result of restrictive mismanagement on MS' part. Really classy move. Wish this stuff would be brought out further in the open so things like this don't happen behind closed doors in the gaming industry anymore, but console warriors continue to shield & protect the people who are actively hurting their favorite pasttime, all for the sake of pointless competition.

[Rookie_Monster]

Cool story bro.

[TheColbertinator]

tl ; dr

[Magnes]

@Dookie_monster it's a shame we the bubble system went away now trolls like you get to run ramped least everyone on n4g knows you for what you are

[Hold_It]

I just came here to say you have the perfect dislike to like ratio. 9/11

That is all.

[Godmars290]

MS certainly didn't want to risk the IP going multi - onto the PS4 - especially after cancelling a title.

[game4funz]

You are stretching the truth. No where does it say they didn't want to not do the game they were creating.

They got bored.... Thats their problem... Not Microsofts. They had over 3 years to finish a simple game. They're currently full of excuses... Not to. Mention contradiction.

When the game was canceled they came out saying how no one saw it coming. That they wanted really much to finish the game etc etc etc.... Now the story changes to that they never wanted to create the game to begin with and it's Microsoft fault etc etc. And that they could see it coming but didn't expect not to finish the game.

[Haru]

Microsoft is the worst publisher ever

[CrimzonRazor]

They closed lionhead because they dumped a large amount of money into legend and the game was a huge turd its called cutting your losses.

[Imalwaysright]

2pacalypsenow

Europe isn't a country, it's a continent and Europe more racist than the States? Is that a joke?

[Z501]

US geeks will buy a game with a 'blue dragon' on the cover, but a black woman on the cover... Ewwww, f**k no!
WTF!

[lastking95]

Sad truth be told.....that probably true. People are racist to go along with sexist and I'd bet money some wouldn't have bought fable had it been a black woman

Did i say all. Do your eyes not see that four letter word "some"

[exkalibur97]

love you just assume everyone is racist and sexist lol we had a meeting and decided woman and people of color dont matter XD the fuck outta here with that shit, if isis doesnt represent islam a few racist and sexist guys shouldnt represent games now should it?

[pasta_spice]

But even if racist/sexist people DIDN'T buy the game based solely on the cover, I doubt it would have much of an effect on sales. In the end, they're only hurting themselves by not buying a potentially good game based on the race or gender of the protagonist.

[gangsta_red]

You'd be surprised.

I mean look at the flack people gave Star Wars when they saw a Black Storm Trooper. Then you get people going ape shit when their favorite white comic book character is portrayed by a black actor.

Even still you have to wonder how many african/americans have graced the covers of video games that wasn't related to sports.

Shame, MS should have grown some balls and just did it instead of conforming to the status norm.

[SuicidalTendencies]

The comic book characters have more to do with staying true to the source material. There is no good reason to change the race or gender of a character that has been around for decades. People would prefer they just create new comic book characters who are black or whatever instead of changing the old ones. Shit like that does more damage than good and fuels the fires of racism or sexism.

Edit: Meant decades, not centuries. My mind must have been elsewhere.

[garrettbobbyferguson]

The excuse was that people are racist. Except people gave zero flack over Lando (Billy Dee Williams) another black dude. So how would you explain that?

[gangsta_red]

@Suicidal

Source material? That would hold true if the source material required that character be a certain race/ethnicity/religion because it directly ties to their origin or powers. For instance it would make no sense for Black Panther to be played by a white person since he is of African decent. But Nick Fury, Johnny Storm, Deadshot...it makes no difference what color they are since there backstory has nothing to do with where they are from and what color they could be.

@garrettbobbyferguson

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Lando was a bit character that no one really cares about. But there were people upset that a storm trooper was black.

Point is there are people that get upset about race even in this day and age.

There was a recent ad campaign by Old Navy that showed an interracial family.

http://www.today.com/style/...

It's a shame that something that is really so common (at least in Cali) could even spark debate, support or outrage.

And I'm out of bubbles.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

@SuicidalTendencies

Unless their ethnicity is crucial to their origin story then a character can be portrayed by any race.

Spiderman for example is just some nerdy guy who happened to get bit by a radioactive spider. He could honestly be black, white, yellow, red, green whatever.

But

Black Panther has to be African because he is the King of an African Country. The story wouldn't work at all if he were a white guy.

[garrettbobbyferguson]

"Lando was a bit character that nobody cares about"

Piss off with this stupid crap. People loved Lando. Not to mention he even went on to pilot the Falcon for the Rebellion. Once again, no one complained about this. People dislike Boyega because he's not exactly very easy on the eyes.

[game4funz]

Actually portraying an originally white superhero as suddenly being black is racist indeed... Why not leave the white superhero stay white and create a new black superhero... What is so difficult in doing that... It makes us feel discriminated against.

[zeuanimals]

Alternatively, Steve Roger's has to be white because he grew up in the Great Depression as a poor Irish Catholic kid, and his Catholicism helped make him the man he is. Same with Matt Murdock, Irish Catholic except not born in the Great Depression.

Other people donning the Daredevil or Captain America names can be whatever else that they are, but Steve Roger's and Matt Murdock have to be white, Irish looking people.

@Garrett:

And people dislike Boyega because he's one of the main characters and he's the first character we ever get to see from the trailers. Lando was largely a side character. Certain audiences don't mind minorities in minor roles (get it?), but it doesn't go well with those audiences when the minorities are the leads.

@Godmars:

Characters have to be as they were originally envisioned? I guess all of those retcons never happened.

[Godmars290]

@343_Guilty_Spark:

Peter Parker's Spiderman is white for the same reason that T'Challa as the Black Panther is black: its how the characters were originally envisioned.

If Miles Moralas had been introduced back in the when the original Spiderman was introduced, and became popular, THEN there would be no issue with him today. Much in the same way as the Phantom, a white superhero based in Africa, has remained popular and likely served as inspiration for Black Panther. Cause that how Marvel do back in the day. They took "inspiration" from heroes from other established comic companies.

The reason such has become issue now was making the Human Torch black when he was an established white character and the whole stink with Lady Thor cause she was literally taking Thor's name while people who have yet to buy an issue gave the comic community the middle finger over the whole thing.

With Fable MS had opportunity to effect the series, make it open ended and multifaceted by not going to what they were making into established tropes, and they didn't. End of story.

That such a choice proved to be the end of Fable as Lionhead tried to go beyond the character established from the first game is besides the point.

[lawgone]

It's funny you point out the flack "people" gave Star Wars for having a female lead and black storm trooper but fail to mention just how tiny that population of complainers was. If it truly were a large group it wouldn't have been viewed by the larges f***inf audience ever. Clearly, the vast majority of people had no issue with it! But hey, let's talk about the tiny groups and make like it's everyone.

[ShaunCameron]

Yet they had no problem buying a game with a Black male lead called Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

[cyberwaffles]

Which profiles blacks as low life gang bangers and criminals.

[ShaunCameron]

@ cyberwaffles

[SuicidalTendencies]

I bought Remember Me which had a half black chick on the cover. Does that count?

[jer1122]

I just feel bad that you bought that game period.

[iTechHeads]

Having a black woman on the cover implies the game is FOR black women. It is an RPG after. (Role Playing)

Surely you can understand why most casual gamers wouldn't look at the game twice right? Calling it racism is just ignorance. Its not racism, its demographics.

[zombiewombie]

Lol, what?! So Mirrors Edge is for Asian women only? Wtf kinda logic is that?

[Retroman]

Why do it need to be FOR black women only??? Fable is a RPG game for anyone with Green money.
ooh! i cant buy fable because my money not tan,yellow,black,white......sh eesh you ignorant people crack me up with your foolishness.

so, when general public see a afro-american in a toyota comercial do that mean the demographic they reaching for only for people of color?? and when asians in comercial the demographic only for them but not ALL people regardless what race they are not to buy that car because asians is the target??? so if a Indian actor in a Campbell chicken soup comercial for colds campbell reaching out to indians only no one else with flu-running nose just the demographic of indians. no one else can buy the soup because no one else has a cold because they are white. if Advertiszers think like that. rest of the world is DOOM!!
i notice inner city street banners you drive by advertise "BEER/CIGARTTES" all over the place but in a ALL middle class white neighborhood street banners you drive by only advertise "Wendy's,McDonalds,Al 's auto,Shucks,Big Red supermarket etc.. never alcohol ,cigarettes,wine,beer. you guys can be blind if you want but in REALITY it is as i said. Racism at it's Purest.

if you can't speak your mind why in hell come here??

im a Asian

[iceman06]

So, if they would've went with the dragon idea, who would the game be for again???
As for your demographics idea, you sound like the corporate big wigs that continue to justify this practice. This thought actually diminishes the demographic into small minded, myopic, bigoted people BECAUSE of the assumption that people wouldn't buy it with a black woman on the cover.

[Hold_It]

Blue Dragon was an awful game sadly. I saw the Toriyama artwork and thought it'd be cool, but man, that game was garbage.

[rainslacker]

People tend to buy things that appeal to them. The old adage "Judging a book by it's cover" rings very true in the consumer space.

A black character isn't going to appeal to some, and may even turn some away. A white character is fairly neutral in terms of appeal because it's so common. Thinking on it, the only one I can even recall off the top of my head was the cover for Remember Me, and she was mixed race, with the picture lightened enough to not be as apparent, although it fit in with the look of the game. Any other black character on a cover is typically seen in the background, or with a group of a nice racial mix of characters.

It's sad, but that's just kind of how things are in the real world.

This, I don't believe, was a move made due to racism, rather made due to marketing trying to appeal to the most number of people. Most producers or publishers probably aren't as concerned with racial representation or issues, but instead pay attention to what will appeal to the most people.

[pasta_spice]

To be fair, racism (or at least prejudice) does play a part in marketing decisions. White is seen as 'neutral' because, historically, it has been white people who have been in charge of marketing departments and who started that whole 'white people appeal to the masses' belief. Even in countries where white people aren't the majority, you'll still see generically-attractive white people used in advertising because it is seen as a safe image. Marketing is affected by society's beliefs, but society's beliefs can also be affected by marketing. Hell, I'm sure nobody in the 80s genuinely thought frizzy hair and huge shoulderpads were attractive until fashion mags started telling people they were.

Public perceptions can change like the wind, so there's really no reason that a white protagonist should appeal to the masses any more than a black or Asian one...even in a country where white is the majority. But marketing departments are too scared to take that risk and challenge popular concepts to actually do anything about it. Sadly, we've heard plenty of stories about publishers demanding devs change the race of their non-white protagonist to appeal to the masses, or of non-white actors having difficulty getting jobs because studios don't think they will appeal to the masses.

[rainslacker]

Marketing wasn't as sophisticated back in the day as it is now, which is why many of the things we see as typical or common place now are in place. Since it was typically white men making things, they'd go with standard cultural norms that were pretty generic, for both race and gender. Nowadays in advertising you'll see more variety depending on the product and the market it's trying to appeal to. For instance, in the past decade or so, McDonald's commercials have more African Americans in them, because they're trying to appeal to that segment more.

Anyhow, as it stands now, it's just become normal in our society to see this kind of thing. Where it started is kind of moot at this point, because cultural norms are ingrained over generations. Perceptions can change, yes, but people in general don't change as quickly. Perceptions of the gay community for instance has become more acceptable in society, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from being adverse to it, and because of that, when it comes to marketing, it's usually left out, because marketers want to send positive messages, not controversial ones...most of the time anyways.

Marketing departments aren't scared to take risks, They simply go with what works. Marketing isn't really about taking risks, it's about getting a product noticed, and expressing what that product is about. In some cases, using a minority can do that, but more often than not, it doesn't. Where it makes sense to use a minority, and if a minority is a target market for a product, then sure, they'd use a minority. Otherwise, there's no point in stirring the pot, because most products aren't put out there to make a political statement.

So I'll ask the question, what would be gained by using a minority just for the sake of using a minority?

As far as the changes devs are asked to change. Yes, and sadly, that's not likely to change to such a great degree anytime in the near future. However, when it comes to producers, they know the generic appeals to more people, and their motivation is more selling the product than being racist.

What I often see in conversations like this is people consider the current political trends and what is considered to be progressive. However, when it comes to marketing, and even things like movies or games, it's all based on analytical data which is proven to sell products, and until some metric comes up that shows representing a minority on a product is actually beneficial for a particular case, not much is likely to change. "Risks" do need to be taken to gather that data, but since it's the producers and publishers money, they get to decide if that risk is acceptable.

Overall, I don't think that taking such risks would be overly detrimental to game sales or appeal, but I'm not the one making the decisions.

[Fin_The_Human]

Same with Japanese gamers... Put a black woman on the cover of Final Fantasy and see what happens.

[iceman06]

Actually, in my experiences with Japanese culture, black people (women especially) are considered cool and edgy. There's an entire trendy movement in Tokyo where Japanese women excessively tan themselves, braid their hair, and wear gaudy clothing in the misguided attempt to represent some aspect of black women.

[2pacalypsenow]

Who cares

[cyberwaffles]

2pacalypsenow = racist.

If only the shoe were on the other foot would you understand.

[2pacalypsenow]

I'm South American yet I don't bitch and moan because Latinos are not all over the games. Or go out and destroy my whole city just because some criminal got killed

[cyberwaffles]

Do you know much about the American history? That white colonialists took over the land from Natives, assimilated people, then later enslaved Africans for years on plantation fields and through human trafficking? You know about the apartheid that has been riddled throughout our history?

Then when equal opportunities ushered in and abolished slavery the establishment still imposed jim crow laws and segregation? Do you understand how hard it is for a race to come to terms to a ruling class that has historically oppressed them? Especially when even today minorities have higher incarceration rates despite doing roughly the same amount of crime as whites?

I know a majority of the users on here are white as evident by the disagrees and the typical privileged lifestyle most of you have inherited. I'll just say this: Most of the the world HATES racist white Americans (NATO included) and watch the Africans, Indians (from India), and Chinese rule the world someday. The shoe will be on the other foot.

Last edit: I'm surprised as a latino it doesn't enrage you seeing that much of the land in Mexico and the southern parts of America were once owned by latinos. I'm mix so I don't need to get into argument like this but it seems a bit uncle tomish to be so naive of the blatant racism by the establishment. Then again I can't speak for behalf on South America.

edit: @Pocky. Your profile pic shows your white. Again, you wouldn't understand it unless you lived through it. But that's ok, I'm about done with this site. I'm going back to my government access forums. I don't need to get into debates on a dumb gaming web site.

edit @ Bruce

You're splitting hairs. You admit there are still struggles concerning racism so how does that moot my point?

@game4funz

You're actually right. I believe there should be a balance of the two. We should feel confident to express ourselves yet at the same time be conscientious of others hence humility. There's a saying that if your mouth doesn't agree with your heart its a sin (don't take this too seriously.)

At the same time it shouldn't be an invitation to defacing and slandering people. People seem to confuse freedom of speech with libel.

@ghost

You know how much of a slap in the face it is to say we should thank whites for our liberation when they were the one's who initially enslaved us? lol you really are a troll. Oh don't forget Tubman and others who simply ran away from their slave owners. They didn't need your help. I also love the fact how Texas schools are trying to revise their history books concerning the confederates. They don't want them to be remembered as racist slave owners so just like the rest of the information taught in schools there is a case of revisionist history.

Or how the blacks and native indians played integral roles in the world wars yet didn't get the decorations they deserved until years later with the Clinton administration. You're just a douche.

[Wingsfan24]

Lol - I know a majority of the users on here are white as evident by the disagrees and the typical privileged lifestyle most of you have inherited. - while trying to bash white people for "racisim" you go ahead and make a general comment like that. Because people disagreed with your ignorant statement, they're immediately white? And they're privileged? I guess they're racist too, why not?

This is the problem with people. Everyone has a side, everyone is offended by things that are utterly meaningless like the cover of this video game. Big, freaking deal. If they put a black, yellow, white or purple person on the cover, what does it matter? If it really bothers you or anyone that much, you must really get offended quite easily.

In the context of the game, iirc there was no black main character, so why would they market such a character and then not have said character in the game. This is literally a story written to drum up controversy and that's about it really. Was super surprised to see this come from Gameindustry.biz...

[game4funz]

Political correctness strips people of freedom. Fact. Now we all have to watch out for what we say and how or possibly be imprisoned.

Racism doesn't exist. Only the sense of superiority. Want to get rid of racism? Learn humility... Then it won't matter what race, height, sexual orientation someone has.

Society doesn't need political correctness... Just humility.

[Gh05t]

@cyberwaffles

Yeah I totally forgot the part where the minorities on their own with no help from those racist white colonials were able to all the sudden get any sort of freedom, which war was that again where the blacks stood up and fought the white devil away for their freedoms, must have overlooked that chapter in my history book... thats right, as much as you hate white people it was not without the help of those of us who know its wrong to own people and enslave people that you even have the chance to complain about this crap.

I love how most minorities think they just stood up on their own and did this all themselves without help from whitey :)

You're welcome by the way :o*

Im going to go get some popcorn now, I like shows like this.

[Ashmedae]

On third thought...

@cyberwaffles and others

Have you heard of the Atlantic slave trade? I'm guessing not judging by your posts. Just a quick FYI: In the early 1800s NIGERIANS were selling other Nigerians as slaves to Europeans and the likes. The Ashante in Ghana earned much of their wealth back in the day by capturing/kidnapping other Africans and selling them as slaves. Do I need to go on with other examples? It wasn't just "the white man" taking part in slavery. Africans were just as guilty.

Do yourself a favour and educate yourself first before you go posting.

[khinter]

dammit, i accidentally up voted this comment. I thought you were kidding... sadly not.

[lawgone]

Cyberwaffles, your long and rambling comment has some real gems in there. Thanks for opening your mouth and proving how ignorant you and hate-filled you are. But please, go on and blame your failures on your version of history.

[Gh05t]

Do you know how insulting it is to have a bunch of people like you throw away the FACT white people aren't a bunch of racists and lead in the fight to stop slavery. I love Tubman, she was an amazing abolitionist but you have to have rocks for brains if you don't think she needed white people... Think about it, where did she run to? Who's houses did she hide in? Didn't need white people... You are a piece of work man. And about that confederate war was all about slavery thing, maybe you need to open a history book again but let me throw two dates out there for you. The American Civil War started in 1861, and the Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, so yeah not about slavery, it's about state rights but if you were an American by more than just birth you would get that. You have just been drinking the divisive koolaid from your echo chambers of hatred.

And yes I'm a trolling douche, but it's better than being a muppet sheep who believes that all people of a certain color are inherently racist.

[PistolsAtDawn]

@cyber ...you do realize you are being wildly racist right? Your ignorance is so enormous I dont even know where to start. So ill just say ALL groups of people have performed atrocious acts...not just white people. White people weren't the first...arent the last and aren't the worst slave owners....EVEN IN THE US the first slave owner was a black man...Spaniards were the first to come and kill/take over US from the natives....first recorded history of Slaving was in Egypt when the Nubians had Jews build pyramids. Your stat about equal crime vs prison population is clearly out of your ass....go to the FBI website....you'll see.

The fact that you keep telling people how they don't know what its like to suffer like a minority....then immediately turn around and tell every white person how spoiled they are to be white....is massively ignorant. It appears that you are in fact the biggest racist here. Please take a step back

[babadivad]

2pacalypsenow = Awesome album

[PistolsAtDawn]

Why wasn't there a Latino on the cover? RACIST ALBUM!!! :)

[kevinsheeks]

You've almost derped enough to warrant a reply lmao ,but i like ignorance so continue.

[Cy]

Well, you can't make a black character in Fable, so, having one on the cover would make no sense?

[OneLove]

You are slow I'm sorry.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

How do you know the game at one point didn't figure character customization?!

[game4funz]

We don't know a lot of things.. Let's not start pointing fingers.

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

The headline is absolute shit So ill fill you in. They were forced to make the playable character white only. Apparently MS marketing department didn't want fable 2 to take any risks including characters of colour comedic story etc.

That said, one side of the story. For all we know the guy is talking shit.

[JackStraw]

Critical thinking eludes you.

[cyberwaffles]

Racism. God forbid to have black lead characters. Its all about blue eyed, blond hair type A male protagonists with the media in America. Thank god for Mafia 3.

[RosweeSon]

Not sure id thank god for Mafia3? He's more of a Saints Row type of guy? ;)

[cyberwaffles]

What I meant is that Mafia 3 focuses on the Black Mob and Irish Mob. I respect that they are at least trying different premises rather than reiterating the same cliche stories.

[RosweeSon]

I was only joking cyber Waffles. Bad as it may have been ;)

[garrettbobbyferguson]

How many "blue eyed blond hair type A male protags" do you know in films?

[cyberwaffles]

You know exactly what I mean. A majority of the films and tv shows have white lead characters. I was being slightly facetious. For every black lead star there are countless more white lead characters. The hierarchy seems to go like this:

1. White alpha male characters as lead roles and protagonists
2. Occassionally asiatic characters as lead roles, mostly in the form of stereotypical martial arts films
3. The rest, whether female or minority, tend to be supporting roles or secondary characters

There are exceptions to the rule but you guys know I'm right. Scroll through all the major movie and video game releases and I can bet you my left nut most of the cast are white and are the primary characters. It has to do with the simple fact of demographics and that America is still a predominately white country (along with Europe.)

[Wingsfan24]

@cyberwaffles - Did you happen to go through casting records to see if any black actors even tried for the roles...? Your comments are some of the most narrow sighted I've seen on this site in a while, you might want to open your eyes to the world a bit and realize you're the one being a "racist" and generalizing people.

[Omnislashver36]

I'm White and Asian and know this to be true. Not trying to be an SJW but yellow-face, the act of making whites into Asian characters is a thing too. Just seems that the industry thinks even Asians are bad at being Asians. Same thing happens to Indians.

It's not a hard situation to grasp, the industry has it's hierarchy. That's just how things are. I mean, look at the Avengers. They didn't get a black guy until the 2nd movie, and he was a secondary role to Captain America, and I'll be damned if the Justice League or Avengers ever introduce an Asian lead role.

Videogames, 90% of the lead characters are white males. Even Final Fantasy or Street Fighter, developed by Japanese, are predominately white. Mirror's Edge is the one standout exception, which is near b-list in my view.

I wouldn't mind playing a black guy here and there, and it could be argued perhaps FF or SF characters have Asian in their backgrounds, but seriously the overarching archetype is white males. That's just how things are. I've got no problem with playing a white guy, but lets see some diversity moving forward. And I don't mean Faith in Mirror's Edge, or Cole being second to Marcus Fenix in Gears of War, I mean lead roles for good games. It just isn't happening. For some reason colored eyes and white skin is profitable. If you told me the character for your next favorite game was a half-hispanic, half-black chick with superpowers I'd probably laugh in your face. It's not likely. I'd like to see it, but it's not likely.

There are exceptions to the rule here and there, but they're all support roles. Come on'. The white male is dominant in the movie industry, and the white male is extremely dominant in the gaming industry. I'm not trying to be an SJW, but that's reality brohani.

In response to some comments above, I am glad Star Wars has had some good black roles like Lando and Finn, but that's an exception. As far as gaming goes, I don't think we really have an excuse for lack of diversity. I mean, we can alter persona's so that they're not, unsavory, per say, but yet someone used an example of San Andreas as a black protagonist? Now, hold on, first of all, they're still few and far between- but using San Andreas as a sign of diversity? Seriously? How about lead HEROIC roles for minorities? It's just not happening brohani.

And lastly, in face of this 'target audience' BS going around. The main target audience is always going to white males. Is that really fair that since the largest audience of gamers is white males, 90% of characters will also be? Say 15% of gamers are black, are there even 15% black roles? Lets be serious. And is it SO bad for a white person to play a person of color? God you crybabies are so fucking picky. Colored people play whites all day. It's like you guys are SJW's defending whites! Geez.

You fucking CHILDREN act like your controller is going to blow up if you play someone of color.
And you never know. Lionhead's black female character could have turned out to be your next favorite character! I'd be down to play, why not?

[garrettbobbyferguson]

@omnislashVer36

Does this man look white to you?

http://gamerselixir.com/wp-...

[Ashmedae]

@cyberwaffles and @OmnislashVer36

Have you ever taken a look at the US Cenus...at all? If you did you'd know that blacks make up about 13% of the TOTAL U.S. population (white people account for about 63%, Asians about 5%, and Hispanics about 13%). Just as an example only...if EVERY single person in the US had a job...black people would still only occupy about 13% of all jobs. My point being, if the ratios were to hold true and translate over to film...about a little less than 2/3 of the acting jobs and lead roles would more than likely be held by white people.

What the hell do you expect?

[Gh05t]

... complains GTA portraid black people as gang bangers, is thanking God for Mafia 3... you are a walking contradiction.

[cyberwaffles]

I see Mafia 3 having more class than being a straight out low life. You should research the term "omerta" and what the mafia was originally about. Sure they evolved into protection rackets and other forms of trafficking but they were originally made to give a sense of community to the disenfranchized and those oppressed by the system.

This isn't just the black mob, this has been the case with most mafias. When immigrants would come into America through the sea ports they were often discriminated against by the locals. They couldn't get jobs, go to school, they were harrassed by law enforcement, etc. The mob was meant to give employment and protection for those who were disadvantaged.

Obviously it's purpose has changed over the years with the racketeering and such but it was more about big business and capitalism. You can find notorious men in certain mafias that aren't involved in drug trafficking or prostitution. Some run legit industries and even have their own militaries.

San Andreas is about being a thug.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. My first job was a waiter at a convention center because of a man in the mafia. He was a part of the Deejoy family and ran a convention center in the town I used to live in. He even sold a bar to my aunt years ago before she was ran out of business. We had conventions, military folk, and other business type come in all the time. We would host parties up to over 1,000 people a night. He died not too long ago and you can even see his grave tomb at the River Walk in Pueblo, Colorado. His name was Marty Deejoy.

The man was a class act and was definitely nothing like you see in the manner of GTA.

Then again you silver spoon types don't see much of the world so you think the way the mafia is portrayed in the movies is true. It's not that dramatic.

[kevinsheeks]

Gaming community is a racist community but i wish you luck.

[khinter]

@cyberwaffles: Keep going on with "everyone's a racist" & "its all everyone's else's fault" attitude. - sad way to live your life. You'll bitch and moan forever... Let me guess you've been "places" and "seen things", "others don't understand". Well then, actually go do some good in the world, quite placing blatant anger on who you perceive has racist; because then you better start looking in the mirror.

[opinionated]

#BlackCoversMatter

No, they don't. Nobody cares.

[JackStraw]

"nobody"

>plenty of people commenting obviously care. Again. N4G community dumb as shit.

[opinionated]

I doubt they actually care as much as they think they do. I think it's just their hatred for Microsoft in general.

[game4funz]

Not enough to actually go a develop a good game with a lead black character.

[ShaunCameron]

@ game4funz

Thank you! And I'm Black by the way.

[Drithe]

For God's sakes. I seen the original picture they made with the black chick. The chick had NO BOOBS. She was practically flat chested with a flat ass. A black chick with a flat ass? HELL NO!. Who in the HELL would want a flat chested black chic with a flat ass on ANYTHING? The SJW's must be hung and bitch slapped until they die. No boobs? NO WAY!!! Not really.

[i3eyond the Circle]

Microsoft has put black leads in Halo and on thr front and back cover... Even tho customizable... the black guy to me is the face of Crackdown.

Master Chief imo....is black.

Their CEOs name is Satya Nadella...

Fable 2....didn't have that much depth to even justify a black woman on the cover.

Sounds like someone's mad they lost their job.

[opinionated]

Exactly. It sounds like a disgruntled employee trying to peg Microsoft as racist. Everybody dogpile Microsoft for their decision on a game 7 years ago!

This is the second hack job article I've seen from gameindustry.biz. The first was them crying about the steam community being "toxic". I hope that's not an actual popular industry site because they sound like a bunch of pre-teen hipsters.

[cyberwaffles]

But Master Chief isn't black. Haven't you beat Halo 4 on legendary before?

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Spartan Locke is black. Halo 5...Locke is the main protagonist.

[Spurg]

Yes the face of Crackdown is black...
Plus Master chief is a freckled faced ginger.....

[BossBattle]

When I think of Fable I don't think of a Black woman. That's like putting a Black woman on the cover of Infamous.

[kingjames18]

Anyone who wants to jump on this and call "Racist" are just themselves ignorant and just want to hop on the PC train. They also never played the game or the one before it either. You play as a Hero who is white and had been white in the first 1 as well. So what would you think if you saw a black woman on the cover? You would think you could play as her. Which you cannot. So turn off your "Racist" alert. And back off and put down your torches and pitchforks... Fluck!

[Elda]

Why should anyone care when Fable is now defunct...Next.

[RaidoUK]

1. the cover is not racist if it was im sure one of the SJWs would have already pointed it out

2. if the guy wants to make a mythical game inspired by western history then he has every right to put a white male as it depicts the game. IT IS NOT RACIST

3. get a life instead of inciting racism, thats all this is the social justice nazis

[DLConspiracy]

Not supportive of that type of behavior but didn't this guy get fired? Makes you wonder.

[Kenshin_BATT0USAI]

Lol marketing departments. Those are the enemies of creative's.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

This thread of comments has been an entertaining read.

Anyway, I would venture a guess MS felt the market research leaned toward the game cover performing better with the white guy vs black woman when they showed it to gamers. The white male power fantasy is a core tenant of gaming still to this day. Not saying it's as strong anymore...and the industry definitely has shifted...but it's still there.

[rainslacker]

I'd say the male power fantasy is still quite evident in gaming overall. It's just less accepted that we're allowed to admit liking such things, or even being allowed to have such things. When it comes to gender, it's typically male power fantasy or empowered women fantasy. There are a few titles which break the monotony, but overall, people want male power fantasies, and now there is more of a market for empowered women.

When it comes to race, games are still dominated by white people. But white people do make up the bulk of the market, and part of the male power fantasy and empowered woman trope is that people have to be able to connect, so the characters are more often than not are going to represent the majority of the target audience. However, I can't recall anyone ever being adverse to playing a character of a different race....or gender for that matter.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

@rainslacker Totally agree...and I honestly can't say i have ever not played a game due the race or gender of the playable character. In fact my favorite game of last year was Rise of the Tomb Raider.

[hardcorehenry]

Also I heard that Bill Gates runs down stray cats.

[jer1122]

Serious question who buys the game because of the cover art? I would imagine maybe there's like one guy out there is like this looks cool other than that people watch trailers are they used to read magazines. Never once I was like oh that cover art is going to make me buy a game. Maybe back in the SNES days but not now

[rainslacker]

When the game released, the internet was still kind of fledgeling, so news was still mostly in magazine. The box art plays a rather important role in sales due to the fact that there is a great number of casual or moderate players who will be attracted to something on the cover before anything else. They may know nothing about the game beyond what is shown on the box, but a good cover art at least gets their attention to learn about it.

Just think about it when we used to go to rent movies with no idea what we wanted. Often times we had already seen the movies we were interested in, so we just perused the boxes for something that looked interesting. Same with books in the book store. Same with Cereal in the cereal isle. It creates a first impression.

I would say when it comes to the hardcore, we don't care as much, because we know about these games, but beyond these forums, and others like it, it's all about being seen.

I doubt many people would be turned away with a black character on the box of fable II. However, a black female isn't representative of the game at all. I also doubt if a black female had been on the cover back then it would have become a big issue as again, the internet was still nowhere near as prolific as it is today, where mostly tech oriented people were on it, and every stupid idiot didn't have a way to access it or the platforms to spout their opinions as fact with a group of like minded people to support them to validate their own worth.

[xPaYDaYx]

What does it matter what colour the person was/is?

[kingjames18]

It shouldn't matter. But we live where everything is blown up and out of proportion. I mean we are having fights over a damn law that says that if your male you should go into a male bathroom and vice versa if your female... This world is going CRAZY and it is driving me crazy with it.

Edit: Not saying we are in this topic it was just an example how stupid things are getting in this world.

[game4funz]

How many black people are on the cover of box arts... I can actually only think of gears 4 at the moment... Which means there's more to the story then is being told.... It is very likely lion head did not have a good enough reason for it. Concept trumps all.

[ScorpiusX]

Had a Black friend & a Spanish friend .

http://gamingbolt.com/wp-co...

[game4funz]

Didn't even realize...there. Even more proof MS must have good reason for not just uselessly placing a black woman on the cover art.

[Dewitt]

Fable has always been about a white male making his way in a victorian setting. Why would they want a black woman on the cover when it had nothing to do with the story. This has nothing to do with being racist, cmon people.

[ShadowKnight]

Why Microsoft Why lol

[ITPython]

Ah, so this is the real reason the studio got shutdown, as the BLM movement caught wind of a black women being pulled from the cover, so the BLM group demanded to MS that the studio be shutdown.

[SynestheticRoar]

Damn. Microsoft is not Sexist and racist. Four disagrees maybe they are.

[kingjames18]

Sadly in this world we have a growing grp of PC Elitists and no I'm not talking about computers... These people complain about racism, sexism, and a various array of other isms but they do so with hate, they attack both vocally and physically any who oppose their view of the world. What is worse this is being taught in our schools and being propagated on TV and other Media. I feel sorry for our world as its burning down around us and people are blind to it...

[AnubisG]

Normaly, this would not bother me at all.

But now it does bother me because I know they are doing this for the wrong reasons.

It's the whole SJW, black lives matter, feminazi movements doing. They are the loudest and most disgusting people on the planet and they get whatever they want because they are loud and obnoxious. They want a black woman on the cover of a game that has a white male as lead.... no problem. That can be done.

These are the times we live in. White males are public enemy #1 and we need to STFU and take all the abuse and racism towards us because according to SJW logic we have white male privilage that we need to check. Well I for one am f@cking tired of this shit so yes, it would have bothered me if there was a black woman on the case because it have been just a sign os SJW. /rant

[ShaunCameron]

The funny thing about SJW's is that many of them are White and better off than the very people they claim to be speaking for.

[kingjames18]

Its not funny it is sad. I watched a video of the protests that were being held against Trump. Well this guy who was videotaping the protest gets walked up on by this white lady who attacks him and says he isn't allowed to film and goes on about his "White privilege" . When I heard her say that I went "WTF?" https://youtu.be/c21mhN7fDa... that is the video I timestamped it to start at the crazy white lady.

[AnubisG]

Yes, many of the SJW are white middle class people. Mostly woman. They have, what you might call; white guilt. They think it's their fault what happened to black people in the last 300-400 years like they where there or had any say in that so now they go overboard to try "fix" the "evil" deeds of the white race never mind the fact that the first people who abolished slavery were white people but sure ass hell whites did not start slavery and there is still slavery today but not in white nations.

[rainslacker]

It wouldn't have bothered me because I probably wouldn't have seen it as trying to placate a group of people. At some point though I would probably be wondering why the cover isn't representative of the game at all, at which point I'd probably be annoyed that it was done to placate a group of people. Nowadays I might wonder that before the game came out because the internet would certainly point it out long before I'd notice it on my own.

[MagicBeanz]

Super Racist Microsoft, but you're Microsoft so I'm sure its fine, now if Sony did this................

[ScorpiusX]

A fellow Albion was denied a job moving on

[zackdollars]

Microsoft should have fired this director.

[DarXyde]

I'm all for representation, but it wouldn't make much sense. If you could be a black woman in Fable, I say have at it.

Somewhat noble and considerate of underrepresented groups of gamers, but otherwise, ill fitting and malapropos.

[DefenderOfDoom2]

From reading the comments, i believe most people believe racism does exist . Also i believe from seeing all the disagrees on some comments, people do not want to talk about racism .

[LordCancer]

"[T]hey were going, what are you making? An RPG? Right, dragons and shit. And that was their advert," McCormack said. "And we were like, no, ours is a Monty Python-esque comedy. And they went, look, we know how to market RPGs. And they opened the RPG marketing drawer and pulled out a picture of a dragon that wasn't even in the game and went there you go. That's your market."

this quote really sums up how they think about the customers. xbox is done.

[rainslacker]

What I found most amusing is that MS thought they knew how to market RPG's. Granted, before people think I'm being judgemental of MS, keep reading, because I'm going to actually discredit the guy, and just found the little anecdote humorous to take a quick jab.

Look at all the successful RPG's in the past 20 years. How many of them had dragons on the cover? Heck, what percentage had actual dragons in them?

I'm also pretty sure the guy left out a ton of details, as that seems rather succinct for a recounting of a rather large part of a games marketing angle. I also find the recounting suspiciously unlikely. Last cover meeting I sat in on during my intern days lasted 2 weeks, with about 3 hours a day for the meeting. Hundreds of drawings were shown based on what they wanted to achieve, they were narrowed down, reworked, shown again, narrowed down again to maybe 2-3 choices, then touch ups to add in specific representations were then added to all three until a final one was finally decided on, at which point it was touched up even more to get it just right.

This guy makes it sound like it was maybe a short session, where they came in with one idea, MS didn't like it, then lay down a heavy hand and said, "this is what you're going to do". What I find most suspicious is why he didn't recount why the cover has no dragon on it, and how they convinced MS to go with something more appropriate.

[Tankbusta40]

Black people are not core gamers, they represent less than 10 percent of the American population and Africa hardly is a video game market. Why is this a thing?

[Trez1234]

I find your comment very offensive because I consider myself true gamer, probably played more games/genre than you over the years.

To me, this is a none issue really n doesn't make much sense since the lead was white male/female and microsoft's xbox division doesn't have a history of racism or nothing like that.

But...what I'm sure of is that, you my friend should never get near that company or any gaming companies with that arrogance, discriminating tone and really ignorant attitude of yours.

I really wanna know what you mean by " core gamers " because what you seem to imply is the bigger market/population means the " corer " a gamer can be......if that's really what u meant, then you're a bit special mate.

[MasterD919]

This news is beyond irrelevant considering this game came out about a decade ago...But that won't stop the PC crowd from diving in after blood.

[Kalebninja]

It's not irrelevant considering this interview just happened, different things come out years after games are made all time it's nothing new, you're only upset because this time it just so happens to be a race topic.

[MasterD919]

I don't think it would have mattered one way or the other if the person on the cover was blue or green for that matter, so no- this isn't a race issue. Nice try attempting to make me sound like some sort of racist though, which is why two others completely saw through your comment for the bs it is.

When was the last time we had a white basketball player on the cover of a NBA game? Do you think I lose sleep over that? No, it's just business. There were no black characters in Fable 2 to my knowledge. That seems like a bit more of an issue than one just placed on the cover irrelevantly. And again, this is a decade old game, so it's not news...it's HIGHLY irrelevant at this point. It's hard to have conversations with the PC crowd nowadays without being labeled some sort of asshole for pointing out the obvious.

And by the way- I hired a black woman recently over two white women because she was the better candidate all around and I don't regret doing so. Where is that ground you have left to stand on?

[Kalebninja]

Way to be overly defensive, I never implied you were racist. What I meant was anytime a topic of Race, Gender, or any sort of representation comes up people, especially here, bash it as stupid or unimportant.

[rainslacker]

I don't think people consider the race issue itself unimportant or irrelevant, just the way it's played out where everything involving race or gender is somehow sexist or racist. No other consideration is given to the fact that this move was purely because the game was targeted at a certain audience, that being white males between the ages of 15-25. A black female on the cover made no sense for this game, and doesn't do anything to represent the game at all.

Other games where it makes sense to represent different races or genders have different races or genders on them. Simple as that.

So all in all, this is really a non-issue, where some people are trying to make it into a controversy.

[merciless]

Not even sure what to say on this one.

[Okan-Ru]

oh nos. whatever shall we do n4g? i got an idea.

cry about it on tumblr. about how sexist and racist microsoft is. That should demonstrate what great activists we are.

[DiRtY]

So he recalls every word of the conversation that happened 10 years ago. And he is the good guy in his story and the boss who fired him recently is the bad guy.

I call BS on that one.

You play a white guy and yes you can customize your character. But putting a black woman on the cover would be just stupid and a bad idea. That is probably the most reasonable argument, why his idea was rejected: It was a stupid idea to begin with.

[Dixiedevil]

You think that's bad, they've vetoed TONS of white males on their covers. They must hate white dudes even more.

[Surt]

SJW are gonna have fun with this. And frankly I can't blame em this time.

[Bansai]

Oh yeah, more SJW, that's it n4g.

[kevinsheeks]

The thing with racist is to deny deny and play ignorant. Racist hate when you bring up history but love to mention affirmative action

[The7Reaper]

Meh, who gives a shit

[killer876]

bunch of SJWs

[S2Killinit]

I cant just call MS racist for this, because more info would be needed. BUT unfortunately we live in a world where such things exist and matter. I feel like racism is on the rise.

[rlow1]

I'm really curious how many people do marketing for a living on this site. Marketers from all companies make decisions like this everyday. They market things to the groups they want to focus on. Sony does it, everyone does it and their is marketing that is focused on black women as well. People need to understand this is how business works and when your spending millions, you want the best chance for success. You target your audience and even though gaming has grown in diversity, white males are still the largest group. I agree that this wouldn't have been a big deal, but they made a marketing call based on a lot of data in front of them, not personnel feelings about race.

[Clown_Syndr0me]

Do you think the same ammount of casual gamers would pick up copies of a game like...lets say Wolfenstein, if the main character was a little indian man?
Its not racist, its demographics.

[lawgone]

"Hi! I've developed this game that's going to be played by mostly white males and I'd like you to publish it for me because I can't afford to that. You will? Great! One other thing, put a black woman on the cover or you're a racist piece of shit that doesn't get it." This guy is a moron.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

The comments in this article are eye opening and alarming.

[gleepot]

Oh noes it's an outrage, everything is a conspiracy!

[JohnathanACE]

I believe in artistic freedom and the right to do with your vision but I have to say a black woman would have made no sense as the main characters not black and there are few black people a Victorian setting.

[Whiskeyjacked87]

i just keep losing respect for MS.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

The Lead character of Halo 5 is black.

[scark92]

If they were basing the character from demographics, there would be a fat 12 year old white male on the cover.

[SideNote]

This article is just racist. Just because someones black dosent instantly get you the gig. Man, Asians don't even get a look in.

[LastcenuryRob]

yawn...Just a standard ignorant, arrogant, far left, race baiting article...Pretty standard these days.

[Chexs1990]

No offense, but who gives a s**t -_-
The game was good, the cover doesn't matter. I'm of middle eastern Heritage and you don't see me complaining about the lack of persian characters in games.

[Deltaguy]

who's complaining..read the article or shut the fuck up

[Chexs1990]

Wow, you're an intelligent one, aren't you bro :)

[Deltaguy]

we need more black creators and developers i dont expect white people to cater to blacks at all..that's not their comfort zone..and a lot of whites refuse to buy games with a black lead character and claim they can't make a "connection" yet blacks buy up games (with 99% white male leads) like no one's business...it really boils down to who is creatively at the helm of developers..much safer to make characters white or as close to white (latin,asian) as possible

[PistolsAtDawn]

I'm not sure this is the race issue some are making it out to be. I mean the lead character was white....so who really cares? If the lead was black and they did this then I get it....but does anybody throw a fit that the cover of any Barbershop movie isn't an Asian guy? Racism does exist....usually by those that claim everything is racist...but more often than not it seems like people take it too far and assume too much

[iceman06]

There's so much ignorance on both sides of this argument that it's getting pretty ridiculous. Extremists on both sides are complaining about a situation that is far more nuanced than just black and white. (pun intended) There's a LOT of gray area. Not everything that is related to race is racist, even decisions that might be based on it. At the same time, there are practices that are common in business and marketing that are indeed highly discriminatory in nature. (only 'black' products should be marketed to black people?) I'm tired of the labels from fake SJW's (nothing wrong with social justice, but how you go about it matters...see MLK and Ghandi for what I consider true SJW's) and from the extremists that react to every call for social justice as nonsensical and without merit. Both groups, IMO, do more to polarize race relations these days.

In this situation, I don't see racism. I see discrimination. But, as noted above, that's not anything new or different in business and marketing and has been considered standard practice for years (sadly). That being said, the publisher has the control over many of those decisions. If they didn't want...whatever...in the end it's their money and their risk.

Lastly, the internet has turned the word RACIST into a meme and generally misunderstands it. We are all prejudice. Within moments of seeing or meeting someone, we indeed (consciously or not) apply preconceived ideas about groups of people to that individual. A bigot singularly decides to hate and refuse to accept a person or group of people based on what he/she doesn't accept. Racism, an extension of bigotry, creates a doctrine or belief system to justify the bigotry. It's systemic in nature and represents a power element.

As an older, black man, I tend to stay away from these topics because they are often dominated by the extremists and leave little room for the nuance. (it is the internet after all) But, I still get annoyed at some of the commentary and the absolute nature with which they are made. Race relations will always be complicated. Especially if we continue to be polarized into purely black and white arguments. How often is life really that simple?