Xbox 360 starting to show its (R)AGE

From gameplayer: "The differences in PS3 and Xbox 360 hardware capabilities have been debated since the dawn of next-gen, but has the Xbox 360 finally revealed its Achilles heel?"

[Viktor E]

With no First Party AAA Exclusives,shaky Third party relations,and a budget that is quickly running out,Microsofts Game Division is failing more and more by the Hour

[Zerodin]

K thx bai!

[cahill]

thats fanboyish but harsh reality
the price cut of PRO didnt make any major impact in retail (EXCEPT VGCRAPCHARTZ ofcourse)

x360 had a good run
NOTICE : "HAD"

However MS could still sell some more x360 if it includes a Blu Ray player in it

[morganfell]

Thw bluray player on a 360 will never do any good. They would have to sell enough bluray players to make development of a special version of a game that was the 360 bluray version worthwhile. Won't ever happen.

The console is going down for the count.

cahill is precisely correct. They slashed the price of the 360 and it couldn't get into the top 15 on Amazon. Meanwhile the 80GB PS3 was number 1 or 2 every day - NOT JUST IN VIDEO GAME SALES BUT OVER ALL ON AMAZON. That is moving some consoles out the door.

It HAS been a good run but everyday the 360 lead narrows. The PS3 is moving into the lead console development platform. Look at what the Ghostbusters Dev stated:

http://www.joystiq.com/2008...

"If we made a PS3-only game, for example, you could double the amount of objects on screen that you're seeing," Randel told the site at a Sierra event last week. "The PlayStation 3 has seven processors and the 360 only has three, so seven versus three means you can do a lot more on the PS3."

[RawPowah]

There is literally,not a single Xbox 360 title that I'm interested in;

Alan Wake is nowhere to be found,Too Human 2 will probably be canceled/pushed back multiple times based on the negative reviews Too Human 1 is looking to receive,Halo Wars=See Alan Wake above,Splinter Cell has been canceled,Rock Band 2 will be on the Ps3,Mass Effect 2 much like Mass Effect 1 will be best on PC AND will probably be on the Ps3 in some form,Bioshock 2 will be on the Ps3,Left 4 Dead will be on the Ps3,PGR developers are no longer going to make PGR games,Ninja Gaiden 3 is all but confirmed to be a Multi-platform game-What with the reason behind the games exclusivity no longer being there,Forza 3 will be on 2 Discs=Need I say more?Ugh,the software situation on the Xbox 360 is THAT bad

[AngryXbot]

Lmao that just shows you the crap they produced and the lies they fed the xbots!

2 fking years. Its not futureproof like we said it wasnt. Guess what, PS3 is where its at. Where else will you find unique and triple A content like LBP, R2 and KZ2!

[Shane Kim]

I like the article about the Ghostbuster dev. This has been known since the beginning of this gen, but developers have been afraid to say anything. This guy has balls and dare to say the truth and I expect more of these articles in the future. I wonder how long it'll take for the devs to stop making games on the box all together.

[KBDuB]

Lol.

[juuken]

Zerodin, Viktor may have been very harsh with his comments but it's the truth. The 360 is a last-gen console. Developers will have to cut loose ends to make titles work on the 360. Unless Microsoft doesn't want to be left out, they'll have to do something about the space issues.

That's a fact.

And may I add they shot themselves in the damn foot when they went the HD DVD way.

[valknight]

i completely disagree, how about we go and spend an extra three hundred dollars for a system that looks nowhere near as good on many games, or a system that can only say two things about itself,

1 mgs4 oooh already in bargain bins in japan
2 blue ray ok so the games can be a bit bigger, like i care.

[morganfell]

I don't expect much from a poster that is willing to quote already disproven bargain rumors. Go on, go down to your local Best Buy and look at the cost of MGS4.

There actually are very few games that look better on the 360. That is one of the biggest BS lies around. More and more, as developers embrace and learn a newer system PS3 games look better period.

[Pain]

Bam!

[Darkiewonder]

They should install game to the Hard drive. Ignore the HDD less 360 owners because you can't compromise the game even if Microsoft wants them to.

and i bet someone's going to mention something about this is better on PC. xD

can't have a negeative 360 news here right? right? SPIN it!

[Morgan Douglas Jones]

Yep. The PS3 version will be superior. He even said the 360 version will look worse due to compression and the 360 version will need to ship on AT LEAST 2 discs.

[cahill]

Carmack is a die hard x360 fanboy

he would come up with ways to make x360 version better or both versions equal

as for MS adamancy would only lead to decreased sales. MS should see that the price cut of 20gig x360 didnt have any impact. (ofcourse baring FAKECHARTZ)

MS should include a Blu ray player . Otherwise x360 sales will deplete even further.

being arrogant is never a good idea in the era of global competition. MS should realize that they might come 3rd by the end of this year. By including a Blu ray player in x360 MS can convince atleast some more people to go neutral and buy both consoles

stubborn-ness and anger lead only to disaster

[dktxx2]

Oui

[SixTwoTwo]

Oui Oui

[The Lazy One]

Yea.. that's why he's putting more time into the PS3 version to make it on par with the 360/PC version. Carmack has a much bigger issue with the PS3's architecture than any beef he has with M$. The biggest difference is the M$ one is a problem that's easy to solve, where the PS3 problem is one he can't work around (if he wants to release on PS3).

The only thing holding Rage back on the 360 are the royalties on the DVD. Considering the popularity of Rage, M$ will probably scratch the royalties and maybe even pay extra to make sure the 360 version is the version carmack wanted it to be.

[MNicholas]

which is why he can't be blamed for regularly bashing the PS3, the xbox is kind of like his baby and he wants it to succeed. It's human nature and if we were in his shoes we'd all do the same.

Therefore, for Carmack to concede something like this is quite significant. He's not the only one. Rockstar was the first to suggest that making GTA V run on the 360 would be a real problem.

The lack of a hard-drive is a serious problem. The 12x CAV type (Constant Angular Velocity) DVD drive in the Xbox360 has an average read speed of about 9mbs, or about the same as the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3. While the PS3 can transfer data from the Blu-Ray drive and the hard-drive simultaneously, the 360 cannot due to the specification created by Microsoft. The result is that the PS3 can move far more data from storage into processing.

The low data transfer capability (a kind of bandwidth restriction) means that only relatively monochromatic games like Gears of War/Unreal which restrict the color palette to reduce texture storage requirements are able to use large textures. This also means that games with massive full color textures are impossible.

Having said that, the PS3, while less restricted, is not at all perfect in this regard, with significantly less bandwidth than the uber gaming rigs available today. This is one of the reasons that games like MGS4 are also somewhat monochromatic. A full color texture requires three times the storage space and bandwidth as an equally detailed monochrome texture. In otherwords, a completely grey scale game can have three times the texture detail of a full color game. This is why Uncharted is always ranked so high by many who understand graphics. It has some amazing textures despite being full color. Surely they must be using CELL to compress textures with minimal loss. As for MGS4, certain stages have utterly mind-blowing graphics with apparently flawless textures, lighting and shadows. By reducing the color range they were able to increase the texture detail even more than Uncharted.

[cahill]

thanks for your comments
and bubbles

:)

[games4fun]

you give carmack way too much credit, he has praised the 360 as easiest to program for and also admitted it was possible to make a superior ps3 version.

but that doesnt mean he will, at best expect his 2nd id5 game to be awesome on the ps3 meaning he will have a hard time at first whether or not he is a good programmer.

Also he said possible meaning to him it might not have been worth it because he is making a multiplatform game.

Now if he was told to make a exclusive game for the 360 and another for the ps3 the ps3 would win be he already has shown he doesnt have that luxury.

Unless of course he wants to make the id5 standard like UR engine then he may purposfully spend a little more time on the ps3(like epic) to make sure everyone wants to use his engine

[GameDev]

has shown the world how blind hate can wellllll BLIND some people to the fact that Sony is already winning this gen. The highest priced console yet still outselling its closest competitor. Nuff said.

[The Lazy One]

Yea... way to pick and choose his quotes. He consistently says that 360's hardware was a much more realistic approach to the development of games. He continues to say that PS3 development is STILL much more difficult (even after solving many of the problems). Overall, his opinion is that 360 is a better machine, and that the PS3 could edge it out under some restrictive circumstances given an enormous budget and a long development time.

I repeat. The only thing in any way holding back the 360 version hardware or software wise is the DVD problem, which will probably end in M$ waiving the fee for him eliminating the problem. As it stands right now, the 360 pre-compression version and the PC version are practically identical.

[games4fun]

thank you for responding to me politely, most users would just debubble/ disagree and go on their merry way.

i did not realize all the things that carmack has said i only read the orginal article this article is citing. If his tuned has indeed changed i can understand your enthusiasm, also i agree its been awhile since carmack did anything worth writing about.

i will also completely agree with your phrase of what a years difference can do i was here on this site a year ago and i can remember the wall that sony was constantly being pushed up against in the media and in general for a lack of vision most people didnt understand. I remember when i had to argue how silly it was of people to think that hd-dvd would somehow win the format war, people still disagreed even though the list of supporting studios for blu-ray was staggering to say the least. Sony slowly imo keeps showing why there early decisions are a great value to the gamer in general aside from the price which people never want to pay no matter what the product offers.

[RememberThe357]

Hes a PC fanboy. Duh. :)

[titntin]

Almost everything you write concerning colour palettes is utterly, utterly wrong - which is a shame as the rest of the info you give is correct and you've written it well.

All game engines on both machines use 24 bit colour space textures. the data throughput required to process and output the textures is exactly the same, wheather the texture is colourful or not.

Thats an absolute varifiable fact - I am graphic digital artist and I've been making games for 16 years, and every single game this gen uses 24 bit textures.
To find reduced colour palette game engines you have to go back to the 16 bit and 8 bit days, or look at engines made for mobile phones (though most of these are using 24 bit textures these days too).

Modern games with a monochromatic look are that way by design choice, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with data rates at all. You could make every single texture in GEARS full of bright primary colours and contrast and it would not affecxt the data rate of the engine one jot.

In all modern game engines, if your textures are chocking your data path, you have to reduce the resolution, not the colour depth...

[godofthunder10]

The 360 still doesn't need a br player in it.The truth is that the 360 will have less then 15 games that needs more then 2 disc at the end of 09 and that's counting the ones since the launch of the 360.Out of the 15 games the average person might buy 1 of them.

I want one person to honestly say that they would spend an extra $300 when the 360 launch to have a br drive in it when you knew that they will have less then 15 games that needs more then 1 disc at the end of 09 and probaly 2010 and out of the 15 you might buy one of them. I'll admitt that the 360 will need a br drive by 2011.then it would have been out 6 years and it would be time for a new system with a br.

I forgoten the name of the engine that they just about finished but it was the forth installment of it and they said that it will have to be used on the next gen systems because it want work with the systems that's out now.Unlike the times of the atari and nintendo,techonolgy involves a lot quicker now then back then.Take a computer for exsample,you could buy the most powerful system that they make to day and a year or 2 later you have to replace hardware in it to keep up with the technolgy and to be able to play all the new programes that's comeing out like games.

Sony said that the ps3 would be out 10 or more years and they are right but they will have a ps4 before 10 years because they want beable to keep up with just downloading software to it,they will have to change the hardware to,hell they are already working on it.

[Rock Bottom]

Many people says the 360 storage problem would go away soon! I simply can't see that, assume MS did what every one is thinking and allowed hd installation, then what about those who bought arcade version? Those who bought it cause they were promised such thing will never happen, this will be another problem for MS, and bigger one at that, I bet we'll be seeing a lot of retards suing MS for it.

[Winter47th]

Yeah harry, way to go you show'em now buddy ;)

Darkiewonder, that's terrible thinking, give some of your consumers the shaft to increase the quality of the game slightly for others? HDD installs mainly eliminates Stream-Loading, such as texture building on the fly and pop-ops, it has nothing to do with heavy compression.

Believe me, if HDD installs were the answer to increase the quality of Rage, Carmack would be the first one to use it even optionally, or the first to say this's the solution and let everybody know.

Simply put, the 360 adopted a Last-Gen format, now's the time for developers to start thinking of decreasing the quality of their games on the platform, and for Microsoft to start spreading BS about Digital-Format is the way of the future giving everyone's blessed with a 10+ MB connection.

[boodybandit]

Carmack - what has he produced lately?

I think this every time I read people hanging on his every word like he is the messiah of programmers. There was no bigger Carmack fan then myself back in my PC gaming days. Some of his titles sucked my life away. But other than gaming engines what has this guy produced the past few years that is a top tier title?

I don't doubt the mans genius but I feel some people give this guy way too much credit. How does his opinion differ than any of the other top devs in the gaming industry?

[beavis4play]

i'm very interested in rage but i don't get why people continue to hang on everything carmack says. he really hasn't done anything excitingly new in quite a while. he just seems to always be talking "in theory" and "hypotheticals". but rage may get id back on the map.

[MNicholas]

@ titntin,

I appreciate the manner in which you disagreed (refreshingly civilized!) however I must in turn disagree with you.

It is true that artists create 24-bit textures for all games but an efficient game engine minimizes those textures. This is one of the reason UE3 is so effective. It minimizes textures so well that even high resolution textures as used in Gears of War can be streamed directly from the DVD. The more monochromatic the game the more it benefits from UE3's behind the scenes hokey pokey.

All you need is 256 steps (0 to 255). A color image consists of three components (Red, Green, Blue) and each component requires 8-bits each. Therefore a color image requires 8+8+8=24bits. A grey-scale image has, in effect, only one color and therefore requires only 8 bits.

So while 8-bit color textures are terrible and outdated 8-bit monochrome can look fantastic, particularly if you have a smart game engine like UE3.

I'm sure you know all this stuff already but I included it for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in what we're talking about. I've attached an 8-bit monochromatic image as an example.

[MNicholas]

http://img390.imageshack.us...

[dcbronco]

He was kinda busy teaching himself rocketry and building a lunar lander for use by NASA. So he hasn't had as much time for gaming. He also has a kid now and anyone who has one knows what that entails. But on topic, I don't see this as a problem. There are very few games that need more than one DVD. That will start to change in the next few years, but for now DVD is fine. MS will wave the extra fees so that won't be a issue. By the time this become a real problem in 2011, where more titles will need more space, the next generation will be out. At that point, every system will have hard drives and the size of those drives will be so large all game will be played off those drives. Or MS could buy the rights to HD DVD or the 42 GB DVD technology. MS will never go Blu-ray.

[potenquatro]

read the article. It's not. This is all about money. For obvious reasons, they don't want to pay more royalties for more discs. That's all. As soon as MS gives them a rebate, problem solved. It has nothing to do with it's ability to run this game properly.

[titntin]

Your understanding is fatally flawed and very wrong.

Its interesting that you talk about UT3 engine as I've developed 2 titles using this engine and know the technical art pipeline for this engine well.
ALL texture data used for for texture mapping is 24 bit and is rendered as such. The code is optimized to work with 24 bit data and nothing else. The engine has to use 24 bit texture data for normal maps in addition to the actual texture, as the RGB values are used to define the tangent space normals of the polys they are mapped to.The only place you will find any monochromatic 8 bit textures are for other channel data, like the alpha channel, basic ambient occlusion maps etc.

The above is true for every single next gen engine used on any games machine at the moment, not just the UT3 engine. I know this for fact, and so does every developer or artist that works in the industry. If you wish to dispute this, please site a source ANYWHERE that would back up what you say. You can't, because it doesn't exist because you are very wrong.

Talking about 'reducing colours to reduce data throughput' is the kind of talk of the armchair dabbler and shows an incredibly naive understanding of data paths and game engine code. If you are genuinely interested in how a game is made, I'd suggest you do a bit more research and learn a bit more about games engines before you peddle more complete mis-truths on the net.

you might want to start with a look at
http://www.guerrilla-games....
which is a brief overview of the KZ2 methodology and rendering pipeline - one of the more technically impressive engines currently developed.. You will note that, like any other game, the texture data path uses a full 24 bit structure despite the fact the art team have chosen a more 'monochromatic' look for their style.

Muted colour palettes are a design choice and have no effect whatsoever on data throughput - FACT.

[MNicholas]

and it's easily demonstrated.

In prior posts I used the term 8-bit as tool to to describe the fact that monochromatic textures simply carry far less per pixel information and hence have far less storage and bandwidth requirements due to the fact that they compress to a third of the size.

As you know, data is always stored and transmitted in compressed form even in games published on Blu-Ray.

Here's an example from an image I have and I suggest you give it a try as well on your computer.

I have two 24 bit bitmaps of the same resolution. One is full color while the other is monochrome. Because they are uncompressed bitmaps there is no savings realized from being monochrome.

Full color bitmap: 3.6MB
Monochrome bitmap: 3.6MB

However, games (even on Blu-Ray) and console hardware use compressed textures. So once these images are compressed using the same algorithm:

Full color compressed: 2.04MB
Monochrome compressed: 0.66MB

So, as I said in an earlier post, technically speaking, the artists produce 24-bit textures and the hardware renders with 24-bit textures, but the actual real world storage and bandwidth requirements are only 1/3rd for monochrome textures because, as all game hardware use compressed textures, it's effectively an 8-bit texture.

Therefore, going monochrome is not just an "artistic" choice, but one that has very real and significant consequences for performance.

[titntin]

I tried to be nice - god help me I even tried to reason and educate you, but its quite obvious you are convinced by your own ignorance and wish to continue to revel in it.

You do not know what you are talking about. Equating the bandwidth of streaming a data stream from the source disc, with the data bandwidth in a software rendering engine? How thick are you? Its not even close to be the same thing!

Anyone with even a modicum of real technical knowledge will plainly see you are desperately confused and have no idea what you are talking about. I've been a career games artist and animator for 16 years and have helped develop art pipelines on just about every system for companies such as MS, Sony, and E. A. to name the bigger ones. Far from having a lack of understanding,I'm paid by these companies precisely because I know what I'm doing and how a game engine and data pipeline works. Whilst that doesn't give me a hot line to the ultimate truth, it does mena I know what I'm talking about and can spot a bullshitter from miles away...
I shall not waste any more time trying to enlighten you as its plain you would prefer to remain hopelessly ignorant.

[MNicholas]

don't mean *&^*% on this board.

I've provided multiple easy to follow examples to demonstrate my points and all you've said is "hey, all the big companies pay me big bucks to make games so i'm right and you're wrong".

Unless you can provide concrete evidence to back up your claim that full color textures do not use more storage and bandwidth than monochrome textures as they move from from storage (game-disc) through to rendering (gpu) people could easily assume that you're just blowing smoke.

Simply insulting people and frantically claiming repeatedly that you're a highly sought after game developer who just happens to be spending a workday posting on N4G is just a recipe for embarrassing yourself.

[titntin]

Whatever - I've no need to prove myself to the bulk of people on this site who have seen my long membership and posting history, and know I talk the truth. I'm also not the only developer who spend time on this site and I've had some more enlightened conversations with others via PM. As I'm in-between contracts I have tons of time at the moment!

Until you ignored self evident truths, I was simply nice to you and was trying to help you understand why your assertions are demonstrably wrong.

If you fail to see that the rendering engine code on these machines performs its calculations on a full 24 bit of data, then you you cannot understand how game engines work. That the data can be compressed to be very much smaller on a disc doesn't matter in the slightest - as it enters the GPU for processing by the engine code it is 24 bits of '0' and '1's and that is a simple fact. How that data is stored, how it is compressed, weather its uncompressed as it enters memory storage or decompressed on the fly as it enters the GPU registers is irrelevant. The register holding the texture data for the GPU to do the calculations on, is holding 24 bits to describe each texture colour.

Anyhow - I've wasted far to much time on you and can comfortably add you to my ignore list along with a bunch of sad fanboy muppets that live there too. Not only do you not know what you are talking about, but you insist on sticking with your ignorance and are obviously unable to absorb any facts you are told or even acknowledge them.

Don't bother to reply, you are now filtered from my N4G experience and good riddance.

[Rice]

FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT i got 30 bucks on whoever of the two post next...

[antoinetm]

i think he means that despite images being monochromatic the requirements for the engine is that you need to save them as 24bits images. That means that the color theme has no influence on the size of the image.

Although taking advantage of monochromatic compression could have real benefits if done properly.

(or maybe im just as lost but that was an interesting read :)

edit: @1.31 did you win?

[Rice]

huh, im waiting till tintin and mnicholas fight again...and who ever of the two post next i will put 30 bucks on that person..

[MNicholas]

You wrote:

"How that data is stored, how it is compressed, weather its uncompressed as it enters memory storage or decompressed on the fly as it enters the GPU registers is irrelevant."

And you expect people to believe you're a game developer?

I'll make it simple.

1) All game consoles (even Wii) use compressed textures.
2) Since all games use compression, monochrome textures only consume 1/3rd of the storage space and bandwidth of full color textures (in effect, 8 bit textures).
3) This is equivalent to increasing texture storage capacity and texture bandwidth by 3x, or increasing texture resolution by 3x.

In other words, Color range vs Detail in textures is a visual trade-off made possible by texture compression (which is a given). If you choose to limit color range, you can use larger textures which will give your graphics a lot more detail like Gears or MGS4. If you wanted to maintain full color but had limited space you could limit the resolution of the textures or use extra compression, which results in reduced detail (ie., it gets blurrier).

Carmack would love to fit Rage on 1 DVD. He's made it clear that he's not limited by processing power but by the actual size of the textures as one would measure in Megabytes. If Rage used only monochrome textures he just might be able to fit it all on 1 DVD. However, rather than deviate from the art style of the PC and PS3 versions by changing the color scheme, he's planning on using extra compression to keep it to two discs rather than the three needed for full fidelity, which essentially trades some detail to maintain the existing full color range while reducing storage requirements.

I'm sure you're aware that game development is all about making the right trade-offs. Carmack feels that this is the right trade-off for this game.

I think I've reached my limit for responses to this post so I doubt I'll be able to post again. But again, if you want to make a point, please provide evidence not insults and grandiose claims.

[MNicholas]

Yes, as I mentioned before, the artists produce 24-bit textures, the GPU processes 24-bit textures and when uncompressed they have the same space and bandwidth requirement but since textures are compressed, a 24-bit monochrome texture shrinks down to 1/3rd of the space and bandwidth of a 24-bit full color texture because monochrome 24-bit textures are like 8-bit monochrome textures in terms of per pixel information.

[Rice]

ding, ding, ding mnicholas is the winnner!!!

[titntin]

I think I see whats happened here.

You are purely referring to texture storage and the bandwidth required to stream textures from a disc.

I had a similar conversation in the last week with someone suggesting that games such as Gears and MGS were monochromatic because the rendering engine couldn't shift about full colour images.
I've been mistakenly assuming this was the same argument, however your constant referral to space on disc has made me re-read your posts and realize you are not talking about engine rendering capacity at all. If you read my posts with that information in mind, you will see that I'm referring to the internal rendering bandwidth of a games engine, and couldn't understand why you continued to talk about the storage issues - which are obviously a separate issue.

The mistake is mine - everything I said is completely true, but I did completely misinterpret what you were arguing.

Yes, quite obviously less colours in a texture = better compression ratio means you can store more on a disc and stream more textures off per second (or higher res versions). Thats completely true.
It doesn't affect the ability of the engine to perform the lighting calculations on those textures, as it does that on a 24 bit pipe - but I can now see you were never arguing this.

Having had the conversation once already, I made a poor assumption as to what you were arguing - all the more stupid given that the subject matter of the thread is clearly about storage issues and not rendering bandwidth.

My apologies and my humble pie to eat. It was me who interpreted what you were arguing wrong - and now I feel a prat. Though every technical detail I argued was completely correct, it wasn't always relevant to the point you were trying to make.

As for me being a dev , you can choose not to believe me if you'd like, I guess it doesn't matter. But if you'd like proof, you are welcome to PM me (I prefer to keep identity reasonably private) and I'll photo the two placks I have hanging next to me as I type this with my Bullfrog games on them, and I guess I can photograph payslips from more recent contracts too, and ones going back to Psygnosis before we were taken over by Sony - I guess I owe you the time if you really want it.

[Rice]

oh wats this, tintin with a underdawg comeback...and its a tie...both players tied with 3...

[antoinetm]

Drama + happy ending. \o/

[mirroredderorrim]

Microsoft has their hands in alot of studios, they better please THEM because they know who they will go to if they don't. And while I know from Carmacks words, that he prefers 360, due to it's ease of use and power out of the box, I bet he will be singing a new tune after he gets his hands deep into the PS3 and molests it, producing games that will kill us because they look that good.

[Chandresh Patel]

I think Kojima has already achieved all you have said.

[MNicholas]

is to pay companies to make games for the 360 that those companies otherwise never would. This is why despite the 360 having a very low installed base and low consumer interest in japan, companies continue to make 360 games for the japanese market.

It might be a smart strategy too as 360 seems to have done a bit better of late. What's more, Microsoft is the only company with the cash to continuously buy software titles.

[toughNAME]

Sh!t might go down in the future. But right now the best console of this gen is undebatable.

[Bombibomb]

You're right. PS3 FTW!

[AmericanPsycho23]

Comments like that just leave you open to get OWNED!!!

@Bombibomb-That gave me a good laugh before I go to bed. Bubbles

[MikeGdaGod]

i'm getting another 360 soon (no i'm not buying it myself, it's a gift for my graduation on Sep4th) but i won't have these issues.

i'm buying all multi-plats on ps3 and using the 360 only for their exclusives. that should save me from running into these types of issues.

[SmokingMonkey]

the 60 gb PS3 plays the most GAMES out of any console ever made......you know GAMES! and it's the only console to hook up to a portable gaming machine the PSP.

PS2 PSP PS3 or as i like to call them; The Untouchables

[RememberThe357]

Oh sh*t! Congrats my man. You get bubbles. lol

On topic: I own 360 and PS3 and although I prefer my PS3 I think they're is no clear cut "better console". I think they're both being used well by Sony and MS respectively. But I know thats just me and the haters will hate.

EDIT: @SmokingMonkey: Damn thats a good point! And the untouchables thing was classic you gotta coin that sh*t.

[Viktor E]

Microsoft will have already executed their Profitless Game Division

[thereapersson]

What a joke!

[thereapersson]

You guys are complete fools

[KBDuB]

Not fools. Fool will do just fine. Those 11 disagrees you got.. Yea, they all belong to Viktor E.

[Tacki]

Would the ability to play against PC gamers in multiplayer really be an advantage? I mean, I think in most cases it would be unfair with those on the PC with a mouse and keyboard tearing apart those on consoles with the 360's controller. The 360's controller is the best around when it comes to console FPS's IMO... but there's still not anything that can compare with the accuracy of a mouse.

[bunbun777]

That's what I was thinking when I read in the article the perception seemed that even though PS3 will allow the game to run "cleaner" Microsoft will have the added bonus of having their MP linked to PC gamers.... ouch! Unless you are the type that likes to stick a keyboard and mouse to your console, it's time to go swimming with the sharks! I will risk having a "lonely time" playing on the PS3, where my game looks better and all i need to play with are my friends! (Sirsmokesalot69 on PSN message me!)

[potenquatro]

it's actually not that unfair. i have owned pc players from a console and console players have owned me on a pc. mouse is more accurate, but a good player is a good player imho.

[AKIronMaiden]

I agree, Making an FPS title multi-platform is a little retarded. A mouse and keyboard would always have a clear advantage over a controller.

[thereapersson]

RUAAAHHHHHHHHH!

[SmokingMonkey]

RRRRRAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!!!!!!!

bubbles for that

[poopsack]

RAGE! RAGE!

[SpiderBoy36]

AAAAHH, I'M OVERHEATING!

[YourKiddingme]

We already covered this...rage will look worst on the xbox 360...we shall see when the game is finished.

[Bombibomb]

Poor xbots. XBREAK 3DVDFIXME sucks balls like your mother.

[Bangadoshish]

The only advantage the Xbox 360 has over the Wii is the ability to play DVDs XD

[PoorDroids]

I am offended by your comment.

[theKiller]

get used to it!! from now on u will be offended so many times and by so many things(ps3 related things like ps3 is raping the 360 in NA soon)

[KBDuB]

Lol. You make it seem as if you succeeded in something..
I bet you feel so accomplished that the PS3 is outselling the 360 in NA, eh?

[theKiller]

"You make it seem as if you succeeded in something"
and how exactly i make it seems that way??
the guy got offended for no reason, just that 360 sucks etc no name was mention or it wasnt directed to some specifics

[KBDuB]

By the way you talk.. you talk as if you had something to do with Sony and the PS3 outselling the 360. Which.. you didn't.

I don't understand why people like you want one console to "win," cause in the end, it will be bad for all of us.

[theKiller]

there is advantages and disadvantages by a console winning

advantages: more exclusives, better games quality, multiplatform games will look better, the ps3 hardware advantages will be used i.e. blue ray size, every ps3 have a hardware, cell power etc

disadvantages: the company will be more arrogant less likely to have fast price drops, less people to play with online, less people to share games with(i mean friends)

and yes competition is very healthy for the industry and for our wallets!! so by ps3 winning i dont want the 360 to die!! just being the last will do fine :D

[cmrbe]

What the hack are you talking about?.There will always be a winner and a loser like it or not and for me i rather Sony wins because they deserve to win and console gamers are better of if they do.

[Ogrekiller]

John Carmack: Well, "a lot better" may be stretching it. All of the key scenes, the things anyone is going to take a screenshot of are going to look exactly the same on both platforms. They'll get the high quality compression. But if you go into some areas in the wasteland, like behind a fence where nobody will typically go and explore, this is where the 360 version may look a little blurry compared to the PS3.

From http://www.n4g.com/NewsCom-... , which apparently no one read

[shelbygt33]

Just wait and see.

Plus, great games are still coming out for all systems - it isn't like we are hurting for games, are we?

[SmokingMonkey]

Zing

[PoorDroids]

I don't get it.

[Bangadoshish]

^ It usually takes people like yourself a few minutes to get it

[SmokingMonkey]

XD

[pwnsause]

SHOW ME YOUR RAGE

[BLUR111]

I have had 4 ps2's and 1 xbox 360, and I have a ps3 with some cool blu ray movies even mgs4, I had to install mgs4 though thats the first time I had to install a movie before IDK.. wait whats this article about?

ohh xbox 360 lol get over it 360 wins b!tches. TOO HUMAN WILL RULE! everyone thinks it will be the next haze. lmao!
what idiots.

[theKiller]

lier!!!!

u didnt own 4 ps2's and if u did then it wasnt for u, it must have been for ur family members!!!

and u dont own a ps3, u see anyone who owns sony product will love it!! and u dont love it!

i can say i had 10 360's and one ps3!! u see my point?? but i do have 1 ps2 since 2001 until now and i never had to fix it and still working fine except that sometimes it fails to read some disks but all i have to do is restart and works fine!!

[Shane Kim]

WARNING WARNING XBOT IN DESGUISE DETECTED

MAINTAINING SERVER CONNECTION....

INITIALIZING....

SENDING CLIENT INFO....

BLUR111 DETECTED! XBUTT IN DESGUISE!

[KBDuB]

My family owned 5 different PS2s.. Two(2) had the same problem, where as the other Three(3) each had a different problem.

And, just as you say you had only One(1) PS2, I have only One(1) xBox 360, still works fine.

[theKiller]

and for how long did u have the 360?? do u honestly think it will last with u for 7 years? even if u do u will be one of the luckiest people that owned a 360, when u talk about hardware reliability u should consider the masses!! not just few cases!!
and i know the majority of 360 owners dont have problems but 33% of the hardware have RROD is a huge problem!! u r talking about 6 million person here not few!!

[Shadow Man]

Why can they just pay for the 3rd disc. If they can pay $50 million for DLC they can also pay for a 3rd disc.

[zo6_lover27]

Its not the cost of making the disk thats the problem, its that M$ is charging unnecessary fees for each extra disk. Stupid if you ask me.

[Viktor E]

I'm positive Sony would be willing to purchase and dismantle Microsofts worthless Game Division

[Lord Shuhei Yoshida]

Then they could make an OS that is not garbage unlike Vista

[enjoi187]

last time i checked the Wii was doing the best......and there graphics sucked last time i checked....the 360 is not going to go anywhere dont be silly...grapics wise your not going to be able to really tell. i have both systems and you cant tell....only difference is the lighting effects....at least for now....also technology advances very very fast these days. and blu-ray is amazing....but there is always...always something bigger and better lurking in shadows somewhere

[7h3ultim8p00]

Wii doesn't count because Nintendo hates gamers and freedom.

[Neo604]

if compression looks as good as original, they would compress it into 1 disc hahahahahah.

[Bangadoshish]

If the Xbox 360 had reliability,a Hi Definition format,standard hard drive,and ACTUAL exclusives,Sony's victory over them would be THAT much sweeter

Oh well,I guess Sony will just have to embarrass and shame Microsofts Xbox as it is.

[games4fun]

i'm a ps3 fanboy mostly, but i usually try to make sure i'm not going overboard. I expect the ps3 to beat the 360 graphically in 09 and 2010. Killzone 2 has the best console graphic currently (if you disagree your just living in biased dreamworld) and i think the 360 wont be be able to keep up toward the END of 09 meaning killzone isnt the be all end all i think the its just a warning of things to come, because it already has the best gfx on the ps3 so 360 will be playing catch-up and eventually wont be able to go as far.

But it wont be because of the storage medium. Msoft will just waive the fees which should of been waved anyway this is just carmack's way of making sure msoft does the right thing hopefully all that money that you guys pay for live will cover the extra disc royalty fee.

Basically carmack wants to one up the competition and still be multiplatform meaning he has to use more space instead of utilizing each console specifically, which Almost makes up for not utuilizing, the ps3 has been waiting for this while msoft needs to waive some fees to stay competitive.

I would also like to comment on the 500gb bluray disc this means they were able to fit way more data per turn on the bluray that isnt currently being taken care of so when it is the slow ps3 bluray will be fine and msoft will be fine as well once the multiple disc thing is cleared off.

[macalatus]

My first quick glance at the article title, I thought it said the "Xbox 360 is Starting to Show that it's Gay". Later on, I realized that it was trying to show it's Rage, I mean, Age.

[Robearboy]

Its not rocket science to know that blu ray has a much larger storage capacity than Dvd, however does this make a conosole inferior? Maybe, does it hurt the console in terms of popularity? Certianly not, if that was the case then the wii would be selling 10 consoles per week. The fact is as a xbox 360 owner i dont care if games come on multiple disks, its never been a problem in the past 10-15 years of gaminf that i have been doing so why should it be a problem now, its only become an issue because its some kind of ammunition that fanboys like to throw around.

Not having HDD as standard maybe a bit of a problem but so far in this generation i have been more than happy with the quality of titles that i own on my 360 so i personally i dont really care , if the ps3 gets bigger and better games in the future then i will buy one but at the moment i see no reason what so ever to own one as i dont see how the console is superior in any way shape or form

[RAM MAGNUMS]

carmack the blabbermouth screwed himself when he was asked the tough questions.
He stated xbox360 version probly won't come out until the xbox360 does something about
that old storage problem. Oooops. Ps3 covered. Pc covered. Xbox360 please step back.

The problem now carmack really wants to capitolize on his ideas of the rage engines potential
but it just can't be done on a xbox360 this gen. People call him a faboy of the xbox360 because its pc
like. Old pc like. Pc constanly changes with the time & its always current. Samething with the ps3 but
old developers are stuck in thier ways & dont have alot of life left to learn new computers. That's why
the young developers are kicking major pc & xbox360 a$$!
the wave of the future! Where more & more young developers are graduating & on a mission to
make ps3 games & improove on the limited engines of the past.
cell +blueray= hi powered & hi class
ps3 + psp= masterpiece game & original psp games & dlc that can make gaming portable.
Devving for Sony + hardwork= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
plenty more money to make when you cut the xbox360 out of your life & focus on being
great.

[KBDuB]

Ooh, what a "clever" title. Lol.

Blu-Ray has a bigger capacity. DVD has a lower capacity.
Blu-Ray has 5 minute installs. DVD takes 5 secs to swap.

@Cahill - I do. =) Nah, but really, I'd rather put a disk in n just start playing. I'd rather deal with swapping 5 dvds then waiting on a game to install.. But, that's just me.

[cahill]

no one wants a game on 5 DVDS

days of multiple DVDs is over
also no one prefers ONE HOUR long loading times

[sak500]

At shemee/nasim/calhill

Nobody wants to install 90% of the games on their puny 20/40/60 gb hard drives lest they run out of space with 6 games.

[The Wood]

Installs coming to a 360 with HDD near you. Anybody who doesn't think installs are beneficial are plain ignorant and out of touch.

[KBDuB]

True, but, they were said to be optional.. Did that change?
I haven't seen anything about it.

[Mr_Potato_]

Yeah, that's just you. We prefer better textures, gfx and holliwood movie-like quality like MGS4.

Lol @installs : it's so bad that Microcrap just decided to copy Sony.

[KBDuB]

Yea yea, Microsoft copied Sony. It happens. From both companies. Why are you so stubborn..?

[xc7x]

Rage...age,ah,wow...
d
e
e
p

[Shaka2K6]

NO GAMEZ IN 2008.

too human,gears of short 1.5 and failble 2 will flop just like ninja generic 2.

poor little shamesoft the xbox brand never really had a change to win the console war, they should really stop embarrasing them selfs already Sony is laughing at how hard they try to steal third party exclusive but dont do anything for the poor POS 3$hitty.

[OSIRUSSS]

Look at all the things that the 360 can do that the PS3 and the Wii can't do.

1)toaster oven
2)space heater
3)flashing christmas lights
4)exercise machine (getting up to swap multiple disks)
5)incubator
6)jet engine sound simulator

[nieto]

LOL ;-)

[Roukuko]

lol dominated

[ozps3]

THAT WAS FUNNY, bubbles

[Shane Kim]

Thanks for nr 3 OSIRUSSS. Shane Dim is gonna plait a couple of hundreds of xboxes and use them as christmas lights. Gonna use it on my christmas tree. Hope it don't cath a fire.

[xboxlover]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't you have to change disks with all of the consoles? Nice try dumb as*

[olivia]

dude i never laugh so hard in my life,where do come up with all of that.not trying to hate but u where preety funy man.kodus all the way

[PoorDroids]

Like all id games, Rage is going to RAPE, on a highend PC. Can't wait!!! That and DOOM4! DOOM3 was AWESOME on a highend PC.

What have we learned? PC games need to be played on a PC. Not sh1t consoles like PS3 (crap GPU and total ram) and 360 (crap DVD and total ram).

[Lord Shuhei Yoshida]

Hahahahaha PC games need to be played on PC and that is correct.Especially when games like Gears of War and Fable 2 come on PC,everybody knows they turn out better unlike the 360 versions which can't hold down 17 frames per second.Another Xbot just can't face the facts PS3 development is preferable including the Ghostbusters team,DICE,Criterion,and John Carmack.While lazy dinosaurs like Gabe Newell and Rare continue with their outdated technology.

Bravo Xbots

[ozps3]

Xbutt, actually admiting Xbug is a piece of $h!t.

Wont be long b4 Xbutts will submitt them selves and bow to the PS3 and ask for mercey

[BLUR111]

ps3 and xbox 360 is the same as pc. there the same thing

[Mr_Potato_]

Nice one. So even xbots now apparently admit that their games are played better on PC (gears, fable, bioshock).

I agree and it's really sad you were in denial so long.

The logical conclusion to your sentence is that Xbox 360 has no real exclusive whatsoever, since I can play every game out with my PS3 and my PC, and play them better as you say.

Nice self ownage by the way.

[Nervz]

His pretty much honest with the hardwares of both, he doesn't side with neither....but agrees MORE with the 360 for the simple reason of it having a more easier and dev friendly hardware.

He also states that if the people working on the games have enough money/resources some great stuff can be achieved with the PS3 hardware, the POWER IS THERE, just hard to get to without having proper funds and a bigger team, etc. Thats why Sony's Exclusive titles look great (Killzone 2, Uncharted, R&C etc)

If MS wern't so greedy with charging for the 3rd disk, there wouldn't be a problem for the 360 version. But since they are, Carmack needs to use a better compression technique to fit it all on 2 DVD's.

[jinn]

the green has gone red

[Bladestar]

we have to wait until this game comes out... what if this game suck major balls.. and it gets a Haze review? will it matter that this developer was not able to accomplished what other developers have on the xbox 360? we heard that whole, "Haze cannot be done on the xbox 360.. because they were using the true power of the cell and the PS3..."... same went with Lair...
I'm not about to debate that that a game which can turn out to be a piece of crap will perform better on the PS3... we are talking about 1 game out of the many other games...

the real catch is on this, "is he puts down to the high royalty cost of including a third disc as the reason to dull down the Xbox 360 graphics for a two disc version of RAGE. " they want microsoft to give them a break as far as royalties are concern... this game is linear... and having it on multiple disc would not be a problem.. at least not as annoying as asking gamers to install the game like the PS3 version will most likely require. xbox 360 gamers do not mind the 30 second disc swapping as PS3 gamers do not mind the 20 minute installs + chapter installs (ala metal gear)... They are using some cheap compression because they want to avoid multiple discs... they are making a big deal out of it.. because they want microsoft to cut down the royalties... what they do not know is... if they make the xbox 360 version inferior for trying to make an extra buck... they will endup making less money because xbox 360 gamers will simply not buy it...

[The Wood]

but dvd9 coupled with no standard hdd are 2 major faults. The HDD is fixable but the dvd9 is not.

LAIR this Haze that yep, relative flops and the 360 has none right. Even though LAIR wasn't too great it still showcased what extra space could do because im yet to see anything that has beaten that on the 360.....Ill say nothing in defence of haze though lol

[Aclay]

Right now the majority of the games on the PS3 and 360 look about the same and it will just be a matter of time (next year) before nearly all PS3 games will look better than 360 games. Did anyone see those screenshots of Heavy Rain? Yeah I know, those screenshots were mindboggling, I have yet to see something that impressive surface on the 360.

Now-a-days people are starting to get confused with PS3 trailers and whether they are CGI and Real Time. Everyone(even me) thought that Resistance 2 Teaser trailer was CGI, but it turned out to be Real Time Game Footage. The God of War 3 trailer was CGI, but it's already been reported that the final game graphics will look pretty close to the CGI trailer, and the same thing was said about MAG, and Killzone 2 is shaping up to be a MONSTER graphically and technologically. PS3 games are starting to seperate themselves graphically and techonologically from Xbox 360 games.

Blu-ray is something that's needed for Next-gen gaming and this is probably just the beginning for 360 games with Multiple discs... heck, maybe EVERY 360 game will be on Multiple discs in the future. It's time for 3rd party developers to stop holding the PS3 back because of the Xbox 360's short comings.

In 2-3 years from now, the Xbox 360 as a console may not even relevant anymore because by that time Blu-ray will be in even MORE homes and Blu-ray will be the format to own by that time. The fact that the PS3 has Blu-ray built-in gives the PS3 the advantage over the Xbox 360 this entire console generation.

I've said this once and I'll say it again, compared to the PS3, the Xbox 360 is already outdated. The 360 may not seem outdated now, but once you think about how Blu-ray will be the dominant disc format in a few years and how the PS3's true potential will start to show in the next year or so and keep growing with each year, you'll see that it will soon be a reality.

[Rayko]

I agree that Heavy Rain looks awesome and killzone 2 is mindblowing in graphics BUT when you say Resistance 2 is mindblowing, then I have to dissagree, Resistance 2 looks terrible.

[GarandShooter]

What the hell looks terrible about R2?

Provide details please...

[bigman7387]

I don't know what version of the trailer you've been watching but if you think that the landscapes and houses and all that looked good, you might want to look again.

[tordavis]

"PS3 games are starting to seperate themselves graphically and techonologically from Xbox 360 games."

That doesn't mean they are more fun to play.

[7h3ultim8p00]

Man, MS should have realized they would have needed much more space than a DVD could provide, given that we are in the age of hi-def gaming and hi-rez textures. BR may be slow, but at least Sony saw the need for more space.

[Bladestar]

I would never trade installs instead of multiple discs... I rather swap a disc than to have mandatory 20 minute installs because the drive is too slow... I welcome the idea of more disc space.. but not at that price... I mean... it's logical... 20 minutes vs 30 seconds after hours of game play?

let's not forget that the xbox 360 is already on it almost 3 years deep... that's practically more than half the what the average console lifespan is... meaning... we should see another xbox in 2-3 years... and if it does come with blu-ray... it will not have the reading speed limitations the PS3 currently have...

Let's assume that the xbox 360 is maxed out(which is not) in terms of graphics... isn't graphics like Gears 2, COD4, Bioshock enough for the following 2-3 years? at least to me it is...

I think considering the fact that the xbox 360 launched 1 year before the PS3 we are still talking about "the day when PS3 multiplatform games will be obviously better on the PS3" 3 years after the xbox 360 launch is more than everyone expected... I mean... when the original xbox cameout ... it games looked better than the PS2 from the beginning.

I do not mind games in multiple discs... I rather that than installs.

[GarandShooter]

'I mean... when the original xbox cameout ... it games looked better than the PS2 from the beginning.'

Then explain God of War and God of War 2. The 360 is a great machine, but Microsoft took the safe way. Sony on the other hand tried to move the technology forward. The amount of reward is directly related to the amount of risk, as any investor knows, which may be why the children on this site have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept. It seems Sony may be starting to really reap the rewards for their risks taken.

[Time_Is_On_My_Side]

Multiple discs create limitations like Grand Theft Auto IV took up the whole entire space on the XBOX 360 disc. Do you really think the game is just going to get smaller due to the XBOX 360 limited disc space? Games like Fallout 3 will be using the full disc on the XBOX 360. Infamous is another game that is exclusive due to disc space on the XBOX 360. It's you have a linear game on multiple discs or have one disc with none-linear game-play.

Eventually you'll see more and more games that won't need installs for the PlayStation 3. I'd rather have installs for games like Infamous, Far Cry 2, Killzone 2, or Resistance 2 can be in my hands.

[PirateThom]

inFamous is made by Sucker Punch who, like Insomniac, work exclusively for Sony. They're self imposed second party.

And the game is being published by SCE.

[Cajun Chicken]

Obviously yes.
Its like the case of the N64 versus the PS, space and format. No matter how much MS drills the idea of downloadable media as the future and 'swapping discs is no deal'. That won't actually excuse the facts...

1. Your harddrive will fill up and there's no real way of backing up except MONEY for new HD.
2. Rentals will be complicated and perhaps not exist through outlets.
3. You can't sell a second hand downloaded movie to someone else unlike a Blu-Ray.
4. The same as number 3 but concerning games.
5. MS have obviously ran out of innovation and see fit they 'borrow' everyone elses.
6. There is now a choice.

These are harsh but true, it seems as if the 360 has become a mere interval for Sony; a gap between the PS2 and the PS3 and soon. Well, I don't see much happening. They did well, but I'm afraid, MS doesn't have the solid reputation and consumer trust like Sony had; people are buying the console, purely for the games, the games are now running dry and its becoming clear that the PS3 version will, indeed be better with the installing and textures thanks to storage space.
It doesn't take a genius to figure all this out, the 360 is pretty much doomed once the PS3 gets going, 'the Tortoise and the Hare', a weakness has been found, the 360 will be flipped over for massive damage by developers and publishers bit by bit in the next few years.
The Wii is in a completely different market to the battling duo, and is more or less past gen, with next gen controls and innovation as its selling points, not even attempting to be a media hub. Which also probably is also soon to run dry, but the innovation might actually keep it around longer than the 360.
But neither are quite as good as the other option...the PC, which face it, doesn't really gather the family around it, no matter how powerful or customizable.

[DevastationEve]

second hand sales leads to unaccounted-for revenues that developers/movie producers DON'T get to see. the money goes to the parties involved, or in the case of a pawnshop/game store they go to the proprietors. i buy ALL my games retail, i roll out cold hard cash/credit/check, whatever it takes i pay FULL price. plus, you get a more professional experience than to go through all those scratched-up discs and ghetto/fugly boxes.

[titntin]

The choice of DVD instead of HD DVD was always a short term choice for the 360.
It gave it a cost bennifit that allowed it to be more affordable and adopted by more people, and in this regard it's suceeded.
Its been obvious for a long time that the data you can store on a single disc is going to be limiting factor for some game types, and we all knew this would be an issue for the machine later in the cycle.

But its mainly an issue for devs and not for users. For some games, multiple discs are not an issue, and changing discs after 10 hours of play in a rpg is no worse than having a few minutes install time. Its only a few large scale action titles that throw the issue up, and if dev's can't solve the issue with high compression then they'll simply find another way.

It may mean that this limits what a game is ultimately capable of achieving on 360 - for example the huge amounts of geometry data required by a KZ2 level on the PS3 (a level can 5 gig of geometry and texture data) would be unrealistic on the 360 because of the storage space issue.

But ultimately, the user will see little difference and the issue will be one that some devs stuggle with, rather than having a broader impact.

[Kaleidoscope]

De video game Rage on Playstation 3 will look better than xbox360. That has been confirmed by John Carmack.

The reason why Microsoft don't want to integrate the blu-ray drive in her console, is because the software giant don't want to:
-Make the xbox 360 more expensive
-If it is more expensive, that means a more difficult battle with ps3
-It is always has been Microsoft intention to sell her xbox360 as
cheap as possible
-It has even been cheaper than the Nintendo wii. Xbox360 arcade is an
good example of it

I think on long term Microsoft has to integrate a new sort disc or disc driver to provide more space than DVD. Because Dan Houser Rockstar (grand theft auto 4) has already criticize about xbox360 storage issue and now John Carmack too.

I think Microsoft has to take seriously what John Carmack and Dan Houser have been saying. Because these two are well known people that work in the game industrie.

Maybe Microsoft can search for her xbox360 console disc storage solution by a Japanese company (I don't no anymore what's the name of the company is). But this company develop super DVDs which has an maximum storage of 50 gigabytes.

What do you people think about my answers?

[Massive-Delusion]

I don't think the 360 is necessarily showing its age in the graphics department. Yes, I do think that upcoming PS3 games look better than the 360's (If only slightly, though they'll probably improve over time) but I don't think that's a major problem.

The major problem for the 360 is the use of DVD, which just doesn't have enough space for current games. DVD was OK back in the days of the PS2 and the Xbox because the games then were not as complicated/sophisticated as they are now- not just graphically, but also in the likes of AI, set-pieces, cut-scenes etc. The hardware just wasn't as powerful and so didn't need as much space/processing power.

Now, that's all changed with modern hardware and more sophisticated calculations need to be done for realistic AI, special effects etc. resulting in the need for far more processing power and more space to store all that data.
Also, as someone else said, it's slower for the machine to read off a disk than an HDD.

I think Microsoft should allow installs for games (Maybe make it mandatory...) as this could HELP get rid of the problem of multiple disks. Saying that, I think Microsoft shot themselves in the foot when they didn't have it mandatory for HDDs to be installed INSIDE every 360, like the PS3.

It's a pity they rushed the design and architecture of the 360 just to be the first onto the market. If they had taken their time, tested the machine more, done more research and THEN released it, they could have ended up with a truly great product. Pity they put their egos first...

[NanoGeekTech]

Multiplayer would be nice against PC gamers ...........but what about the PC gamers with the 5K plus rigs and more precise control due to key boards and mouse interface. Playing against PC gamers is a nice feature but its not a must have for me..

As long as I can go online and there is people online...and I can play with those people I really do not care if its PC folks or not...

On the graphics side I would appreciate a superior graphical experience any day.... its like watching Batman 2 on IMAX versus watching it on your Apple iTouch with nice headphones...........

I spent my money on the future prospect that there will be gains in technology that would allow me to to control WOOOOOOOOW moments in the comfort of my living room couch....and the PS3 right now is the closest thing to making that happen...

[celticlonewolf]

Talked about the good points and bad for BOTH systems and stated that the actual hardware for the 360 was on par if not slightly better than the ps3 but the ps3 has all this storage going for it. The most important point of all each system has a hard drive. The blue ray by itself would have not worked out to well as many devs have talked about how much slower the seek times are but sony did something which the way I see it was a great move and made every console have a hard drive that way people really could use all that space up and take advantage of the blue ray. Ofcourse all of this really doesnt mean much as at the end of the day as long as I enjoy the game I dont really give any thought on how many gigs it takes up or any of that. Will ps3 games in the next few years really out shine the 360s who knows I really dont give it much thought because i be busy playing the games for FUN lol. Look at the wii this gen you think the people having fun with that systems gives a thought to all this tech stuf or people who played the ps2 last gen.
Just to say it again though that he was no fanboy and stated the good and bad points for both systems infact he was just being honest on how his dev was going with both systems. Some websites have concentrated on the storage thing more as this has been one of the 360s question marks.
One last thing I though that ms was going to allow devs to use the hard drive on mmos? Didnt they mention something last year?

[divideby0]

The only disbelievers are those who didnt buy a PS3.
Many are dinning on crow now, but also so many doubters are now multiconsole owners

[GiantEnemyCrab]

You make it sound like the PS3 cult! haha

I did not buy a PS3 and don't plan on buying a PS3. I am a believer in good games and great online and I get both of those fine with the 360.

This game is a long way from being finished. Carmack said the game would look worse on the 360 if they aren't going to use a 3rd disc. I have a feeling this will all be worked out by the time the game releases and once again we will see little difference between a PS3 and 360 game.

It's just a shame that I have to wait so long before I can say "pwned!" to all the drama queens taking his comment as a final verdict of what the game will end up like.

[WhittO]

because this will become more of a problem in the future and Devs will just sacrifice what they were going to add to the game in order to fit it on a single DVD and have both versions identical, so most multi-plat titles will just be continuously outdone by first ps3 first party Devs in the years to come,in my opinion.

[Mr_Potato_]

That's what happens when you buy a last gen console. How are games supposed to fit in 1 DVD nowadays ? Give the crapbox to your youngest boy and buy a PS3.

[Mr_Potato_]

Where is POG ? I want his comment on this. Is he dead (like his console) ?

[CouchKing0]

POG is with the other xbots waiting for Micro$ucks to ship back his "fixed" Xcrap 3Fixme.

Please cry more bots! Cry knowing that your console is teh fail and can never compete with the superior console PS3 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

PLAY BEYOND

[Time_Is_On_My_Side]

"The ability for Xbox 360 and PC gamers to battle with or against each other would create a multiplayer community size that Sony simply could not match."

- Nathan Lawrence

Sony doesn't make the online that's why it's free developers do. So in other words the author is stating that id Software can never create an online bigger and better than XBOX Live, lol. The dedicated servers have a lower chance of lagging online compared to XBOX Live. PC online and PlayStation Network are basically the same thing but the PlayStation 3 is governed by Sony / developers.

In conclusion the multiplayer will be as good as the developer's talents on the PlayStation 3 version. That's why my PlayStation 3 is my main console, the exclusives don't have to worry about gimping the version due to disc space. It's like the memory limitation on XBOX Live Arcade the more memory the better the game is, it's that simple.

[LiquifiedArt]

You cannot expect a Multiplatform Engine or game to show the True capabilties of the ps3. Buy the 1st/2nd Party Exclusives to see that.

Xbox is nice cause its has a PC foundation to games. But the PS3 has raw potential, and has the ability to process data much faster then the xbox could dream of. As seen with MGS4, Uncharted, Killzone2, LBP, Motorstorm and even resistance. The sheer number of things happening shows teh difference. It doesnt have to be just graphics. Look at Animation, Sound, Physics, YES and Graphics. All of these are better on PS3. One Reason is Bluray (you can store more data) Mo-cap data, 7.1HD Sound data, High res Texture data and another is the CELL which has 6 wasy to simultaniously process all this data.

NUFF SAID.

[zonetrooper5]

I could buy the PC version and it would kick the ass of the console versions.

[Bazookajoe_83]

Okey i didnt know about the extra royalties you had to pay Ms for 3 discs, but everyone knew that the 360 would need multiple discs as the game advanced. Ms might get round this if they skip the royalties for the extra discs, but you will still have to discswap. Even thou i find discswap very annoying it´s not the end of the world..

[kinggeoff]

fcking river. Either get to R&D and come up with some GOOD compression algorithms or dont release the game on 360. Doom 3 sucked ASS after all that hype, so where does ID stand, carmack? Not a great place to be slagging another system from. They pay your bills.

[DA_SHREDDER]

I got a 360 and even though its brand new, it screws up alot,, which pisses me off cause I hardly use the thing. People say the 360 is like a pc, but they are wrong. The ps3 is more of a pc,, you can web browse, you linux or windows xp. Download music straight from an mp3 player to your harddrive. Download pics of the internet. Hook up bluetooth devices such as mics, keyboards, and mouse. Get true 5.1 sound that you can hook up an optical cable straight from the ps3 to your bose system. What makes the 360 more pc then the ps3?

You guys ever heard of the roadrunner? Its the fastest, strongest computer in the world,, and it uses the cell processors that are in the ps3. I think that these devs need to get with the new age technology,, im sick of all their little boy rants about them prefering the 360. Thats including you Carmack,, you little flamer.

[DevastationEve]

yeah, the roadrunner's pretty fast. but they also strung together amd opterons in there too. read a little bit further into as to why they did that. basically, it's because specialized processors like cell/cellBE(ps3 version) aren't that well suited for general purposes. and to say that the cell in those system is the same as the cellBE in ps3 isn't totally accurate. obviously they have a bigger budget and can afford higher performance versions of cell. i think that's what they have in there, im not too sure i have to read it again.

[DFresh]

It's just getting to a point that if you want to make bigger games w/ more processing power and realism PS3 is the only console that can match those specifications.
Blu-ray is necessary for games now.
This same type of problem happened w/ GTA IV, DMC4, Assassins Creed, Rage, and the same is gonna happen w/ FFXIII.
The same types of issues will happen like they did off of Rage.
Most games from here on out will be multiple disc on the 360.

[DreDawgg06]

Guys this is sad, Noone cared about this game. Now it has benefits towards the PS3 and now its the huge excuse my pun Rage. This game looks generic as hell and still very little is known about it. Im sure Sony is very happy that a multi-platform game is finally better suited on the PS3 then the 360 but dont hype this game more than it should because it takes up a lot of disk space..

[ReubenSala]

I own an XBox 360, but I'm playing this for PC :D

[smurfie4]

Not only is having blue-ray a convenience, its quickly becoming a need. Developers are want to put more content in their games and the dvd9 is hindering them from doing that.

[PSWe60]

It's a good time to own a PS3

[joevfx]

microsoft is a software company. they are not a hardware company. they made a hardware system very easy to write for so that the software can drive how well the game looks and plays. well that can only take you so far. there will be a point where the hardware cant do what the software guys want. They basically made a cheap hardware system that they can easily ditch after a few years so they can vcoem out with teh "next gen hardware" they are banking on the fact that people will hear the words "Xbox 3 " and think its the latest and greatest technology and run out to buy it. when in reality its not a big jump in technology from the 360 or even your basic home computer. THink about it, all teh xbox is is a home gamign PC in a small box.

Now on the sony side, how many home computers have Cell processors? Now how many super computers have cell processors? I rest my case.

[Xbox is the BEST]

not many computers have the Cell because it's crap. If the Cell was really that powerful it would be everywhere. Sony sold the Cell plant to Toshiba, why if the Cell was/is doing sooo great?

[Aquanox]

John Carmack has already said the difference will be barely noticeable and only in isolated areas where people rarely explore. In the main areas, they will look exactly the same.

Some people don't know what to make news about.

[tab553]

It's a good time to own a PS3
................... .................... ....________
............ ................... .....,.-‘”.......... .........``~.,
................... ..........,.-”...... .................... .........“-.,
................... ......,/............ .................... ...............”:,
................... ..,?................ .................... ..................\,
................... /................... .................... .................... ,}
................./. .................... .................... .............,:`^`.. }
.............../... .................... .................... ........,:”......... /
..............?.... .__................. .................... ....:`.........../
............./__.(. ....“~-,_........... ..................., :`........../
.........../(_....” ~,_........“~,_..... ...............,:`.. ......_/
..........{.._$;_.. ....”=,_.......“-,_. ......,.-~-,},.~”;/. ...}
...........((.....* ~_.......”=-._...... “;,,./`..../”....... ......./
...,,,___.\`~,..... .“~.,............... .....`.....}........ ....../
............(....`= -,,.......`......... ...............(.... ..;_,,-”
............/.`~,.. ....`-.............. .................\.. ..../\
.............\`~.*- ,................... ..................|, ./.....\,__
,,_..........}.> -._\................ ...................| ..............`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_...... `\,................. ................\
................... `=~-,,.\,........... .................... \
................... .............`:,,... .................... ....`\.............. __
........... ................... .......`=-,......... ..........,%`>--= =``
................... .................... ._\..........._,-%.. .....`\
................... ................,< ;`.._|_,-&``........ ........`\

[Wotbot]

it. I have a PS3 and 360. As a true gamer the 360 is my preferred console. Not because I hate the PS3, I own one. But more because the 360 retains what gaming should be about.

The live community is way better on the 360 then on the PS3,as well.

This is my view and I am sure there are lots of games out there who will disagree and I will respect their view.

[Xbox is the BEST]

tired of hearing that this and that game will look better on the PS#3 before it gets released. Wait till it comes out.

[devilhunterx]

WHY so serious?

[Wotbot]

just wait and see shall we.

These kind of statements are useless until you see them side by side.

For me the PS3 blue ray is slow. You saw that in MGS4 when the game had to keep pausing during cut scenes, so the blu ray could catch up. Can the blu-ray drive keep up?

The 360 DVD drive is fast, but has to decompress data, which takes time. It sounds to me like both versions will have their good and bad points.

Just install part of the data on the 360 hard drive and there shouldn't be such an issue.

There can't be that many serious gamers out there without a hard drive?

[jerethdagryphon]

right this is really starting to annoy me
its not really on topic but needs clarifying

cgi computer generated image/imaging
all video games are cgi all the time last ichecked there wasnt a little man in my ps3 animating uncharted with a biro and paint pot

cutscenes and non real time effects are PRE-RENDERED
thats the term and we as gamers need to use the right term at the right time

also as for rage i think the royalties things is stupid if ms charges 100 per xbox image in your games media thats cover and disc + manual thats 300 if they make it a requirment tat each disc has it as well then its just money grabbing
3 discs + manual + cover= 5 royalties per copy... so what ever there charging for royalties there raking it in

[DevastationEve]

the article is posted under both ps3 and 360. which attracted both sides to go at it once again. so that explains all the hating that's been going on. flame bait, need i say more.

sony fanboys, lay off the hate. just say you don't like 360, DON'T cross the line and start calling names. relax, you've proven your point and now have that much less to say, what good is it to repeat the same tiresome refrain over and over.

and what's with all this rape stuff? are you guys just saying this stuff to sound mature? well i think that kids do all this stupid stuff, so leave me out of it. come to me when you can make a discussion without vulgarity, and in the very least without profanity.

and for those with something to say against windows vista, search for "Mojave Experiment". and i'm not going hide the fact that even though ive been on vista since beta, i had my complaints. now, its grown out of those days and imho its a great OS. check window blinds 6 when running vista/xp, its sweet.

[DA_SHREDDER]

You dont like what people have to say, then go to the gamer zone.. retard.

[DevastationEve]

keep proving me right.

[PoorDroids]

ahahhahahaahhaha is that why Gears 2 (and gears 1...) looks better than any PS3 game? especially MGS4 and Constipation 2????

[CrizzleC24]

Xbox 1 beat ps2's graphics right from the start and I didnt see any "Ps2 is dead" articles.

Also to all who think 360's graphics will look worse (I hate my analogys just as much as you do), 360 is a Ford, Ps3 is a Ford with better mileage and Wii is a golfcart.

If you didnt understand that here's a breakdown, Both cars will go the same speed, one will just go farther(and the wii is just childish).
All the 360 version needs is more discs(trust me the "3rd disc rule"royalty wont kill Id otherwise FF would have been dead by now along with 60% of Ps1 games released after 98').(I hate parenthesis)

Also I seem to remember a "few" games that had two discs on a playstation *cough* Final Fantasy. ( I Love playing that card)

Please forgive me, Ive got that "truth bug" thats going around.

[LossTheEarthbreaker]

Will someone explain why this story is being featured in the PS3 section?

[jerethdagryphon]

noone said there wernt multi disc games but coments arerefering tothe royalty issue if a company is complaining about royalies ona per disc basis theres grounds for this discussion

[joeynox]

carmack states both games will look the same in the key scenes ,the scenes that everyone will talk about and the parts of levels where peeps wont go or far a way shots that have no bearing on the game will be blurry.So whats the problem? 2 discs doesnt ruin a game . Lazy mofos ruin games

"All of the key scenes, the things anyone is going to take a screenshot of are going to look exactly the same on both platforms," Carmack explains. "They'll get the high quality compression. But if you go into some areas in the wasteland, like behind a fence where nobody will typically go and explore, this is where the 360 version may look a little blurry compared to the PS3."

[DG]

Ahh boo hoo one engine that has a slightly better image for an extra $200 no thanks.

[lewis]

what the hell are they trying to prove. i mean microsoft is just proving there the worst.

[BeetleJuice]

The casual gamer can only wait and see... But this just shows how Sony was really prepared for the future in its development of the PS3.
Carmack is a great developer i dont see why everyone thinks people are so bias these days, it seems as people just assume people think the way they think.... back to the topic, Carmack seems to want his games to be the best on all platforms, i dont blame him for trying, MS is creating the problem with the royalties. Of course some are going to say i would rather have faster load time over better textures, which i think is ridiculous simply because developers strive for excellence in games and id is no exception, people act as if they are loosing out on something when in the end the developers are the ones who suffer, its bad enough to have more that one disk, but to have to go back and reduce the quality of your work because of the people/company your producing it for is rubbish. Sony is a great company and i think they consider the developers more than people give them credit for PS1, PS2, and now PS3 have all stuck to their vision of the 10 year life system. Alot of games this gen would not even of been possible if not for their leap of faith. I love my 360 but sometime i wish Microsoft would of bit the bullet and put the HdDvD drive in there. I wouldn't mind swapping DVDs, but to have to swap disk and accept lower quality textures isnt going to cut it IMO. I would have to pick this one up for my PS3 and let my 360 catch a breather. Even if MS somehow managed to allow them to use the three disk and keep the texture quality im not into getting up to swap disk. Thats the whole purpose behind having a wireless controller and being able to turn my system on and off, i dont want to have to get up turn on the lights take a disk out and put one in. Thats so dreamcast! LOL. Anyways i hope no one disagrees, MS cant win them all as with PS3, both have better multi-platform games somewhere. PS3 just seems to have the edge on this one.
And as for slower load times who cares, people act like waiting on some thing is a bad thing, its part of life, besides PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE!!!

[CrizzleC24]

I have trouble reading what -appears- to be large run on sentences.

Spacing out into paragraphs will allow a larger amount of people to read what you are saying. Usually (this happens to me too) I find that the larger the paragraph, the less likely people are to read it.

I typically blame shorter attention spans and younger users to this problem.
Which is why I create new paragraphs reguardless of whether or not there is a new topic or not, mostly to allow(mental)breathing room for the reader.

SOMETIMES I WILL ALSO CAPS LOCK SENTENCES TO CONVEY IMPORTANCE.

You'll see that there are much less replys and agrees/disagrees to the large articles and some (including me) will look for key words in the jibberish like "PS3" or "Xbox 360".

All that catches my attention is whats right next to the Capitalized "PS3,XBOX,DVD,PS1,IMO and LOL",which is good in its own respects,but......

If I cant find the helpful information next to the "PS3" or "Xbox" keywords I will discard the Comment and simply move on.

Sorry, Im just a big time punctuation Nazi(excluding some commas and apostrophes).

I hope this has helped (my eyes hurt when reading on a small computer screen as it is).

(once again Im not trying to be offensive, I just want to help)

Now watch all the disagrees and agrees (maybe replys) I get due to punctuation.
(or maybe epic fail with no agrees/disagrees....who knows?)