Xbox co-creator discusses 1080p controversy, Xbox One DRM reversal

As part of a new Q&A session on Yabbly, Xbox co-creator Ed Fries sounded off on two hot-button industry issues: the 1080p controversy and the Xbox One's dramatic policy reversal. Fries tackled the "resolution war" between Microsoft's Xbox One and Sony's PlayStation 4 first.

"I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that Microsoft reserved some of the power of Xbox One for the operating system but told developers they would be giving it back to them to use sometime soon," he said. "So far they haven't given it back so the games can't run at as high a resolution as they could if they had that extra power. At least that's what I've heard from talking to developers."

[Axios2]

The fact of the matter is that if you tally all X1 games, most are 1080p. A smaller number are higher than 720p but not 1080p, and the smallest number are 720p.

To say nothing of MS recent Cloud demo that sent the nay-sayers into desperate excuse mode, "but, but, what if you don't have a good internet connection or electricity"

@Nitro, for a list that's suppose to be edited it's missing about 10 games that are 1080p, UFC, Strider, Halo CA, Wolfenstein, etc

@ naysayers below...TitanFall and Forza 5, get over it

[Nitrowolf2]

"Most are 1080P"
It's actually about half/half
http://www.ign.com/wikis/xb...
With a lot of them being cross-gen titles that do the same resolution or unreleased.

If this article is true, I always wonder why companies do this with restricting access to a console power and unlocking it a few years later. Maybe perhaps to just have the generation go on longer. I know PS4 has 128 more stream processor that are locked away, and SOny did the same thing with the PS3 I believe? It still seems silly, but I guess anything to make a generation go longer.

[corvusmd]

Please keep in mind that most of those on the list aren't exactly AAA/Demanding games...i.e Trine 2, Resogun, Etc. Some of the resolutions are simply speculation, many are missing on the XB1 side of things as stated by Axios, and Killzone has been proven to be wrong, it's NOT 1080p on the MP side of things....so I'm not sure I'd go off that list.

More importantly that all that, the two games with the biggest gaps MGS and COD, yield very little to no difference in the final product after upscalled...definitely not enough to be the sole reason to buy a console over. Keep in mind that it's been proven that the human eye physically can't even notice a difference between 1080p and 720p unless you are sitting less than 4-6 feet away and using a screen bigger than 55 in...that's just to notice a DIFFERENCE between the biggest gap...not even a huge difference.

[georgeenoob]

I'm pretty sure after devs master esram and get hands on with DX12 this whole controversy will be a thing of the past. Cloud was also just recently proven to drastically enhance frame-rate as well.

And for those saying DX12 might not affect X1, it will reduce CPU utilization on X1 by 50%. http://gamingbolt.com/dx-12...

@Adventure

Denial is kicking in for you buddy.

[adventureghost124]

"Cloud is the real deal" oh please, we don't even know what kind of hardware that 1 min demo was running on. Hell for all we know they could be two completely different systems with varying powers used to make it look better. Plus even if that works EXACTLY how they say it will, its still completely useless if you don't have a connection or if your internet goes out.

[Nekroo91]

What power of the cloud?! all i saw is what the cloud is supposed to do which is... preform tasks instead of the cpu....So it gives more power for the devs to work with

But the 1 min video is running on a high end pc and it was locked to 32fps. The X1 is a super low end pc compared to that...yes it will increase performance theres no denying it but it doesent match raw power.

the main problem is internet speed , we dont even know what connection they were using to perform that.

[GameNameFame]

More damage defense.

The power reserved for OS about to be released is like 5-7 percent.

900P to 1080p is 50 percent more resolution.

5 percent brings your framerate from 30 fps to 31.5 fps.

So you need more than that. lol

[GameNameFame]

I love the secret sauces.

Esram was very similar to x360 Edram. Devs have been using for 8 years lololol.

Dx12 benefits are for PC on ms own slide
http://www.gamepur.com/file...
Giving console like API to PC. Lol how would x1 benefit from something every console and it self already have.

That slide is from MS. Fanboys need to stop damage control

[fr0sty]

I see MS is back to blowing clouds of smoke up everyone's @$$.

"It'll get better, you just wait! Microsoft will reveal their secret sauce! They will plug into the mainframe and instant 4k gaming in 3D will be enabled! PS4 am cry!"

So, how many 720p PS4 games are there Axios? And how about frame rate? You know, with Tomb Raider and Titanfall dipping into the teens and all despite running at lower resolutions...

[Volkama]

Neither Sony or MS hold anything back deliberately for the sake of extending the console generation.

Microsoft's resource reservations for the kinect are currently necessary for the thing to function. They are working on optimising the software to free up most of that reservation. They are not saying "no Infinity Ward, we'd prefer you to make COD 720p this year so that people are more impressed when it's better next year".

Sony's "spare" stream processors are purely to cover for dud stream processors on the die to increase yield. It's pretty standard practice for AMD, you see it in lots of their PC products. sometimes possible to "hack" a graphics card and enable the spare hardware, but that is not possible on the PS4. Sony can't enable the extra stream processors because on some small number of machines out there these will already be active.

[pupa]

@adventureghost124

Exactly. +Bubble.

We are used to M$ using powerful PC's with top end GPU's and tricks to scam people at reveals and E3 in believing what's possible and how the games will look when released. Forza used as reference is point and case of the difference at such reveal and what gamers got for real.

Also remember Milo, where is it together with the promised super AI. Where is the Titanfall AI?

So at E3 2014 I expect it will be more of the same standard M$ practise again, I am sure!

[r1sh12]

@nitrowolf - isnt that half of whats come out so far, surely the resolution will improve over time so that ratio reduces.

[jebabcock]

I believe the reserve is to make sure there is adequate growth for the underlying OS. This ensures that if they expand the OS capabilities they don't risk gimping games in the process. Towards the middle to end of the life cycle or as they identify that certain resources won't be needed by the OS then they free them up for consumption. If they free up too early though they risk stifling the ability to expand and improve the OS.

[Blacksand1]

The XB1 is 720p with a 1080p up-scaled because MS tried to make it a t.v hub first and a gaming console second. My Fios is 720p reg. channels and 1080p on HD channels. When you mix the two that's what you get 720p with a up-scaled of 1080p, because of t.v part of the console.

[christocolus]

@axios

I really dont care if games are 1080 or not i just want Phil to keep delivering great content on the platform and thats why im looking forward to E3 so badly..cant wait to see what MS has planned.

The cloud stuff was pretty impressive too, i believe the tech will be built into dx12 api somehow and will be used to improve the experience of single player games but the major improvements will be seen in online multiplayer games i.e mmorpgs, rts, online rpgs, fps, simulations and online co-op. (Games that need to be constantly online)

Imagine halo or gears with that type of destruction?...awesome.

[LackTrue4K]

its funny that the brand that lacks 1080p/60 FPS is the one that brings it up the most....
and its fans defend something that "they wish" had little to do with gaming.
haha...

[christocolus]

@onyoursis

But I honestly do not care about it.. The friends I game with do not either and I have so many ps only pals , funny thing is we all bought our consoles based on personal preference and ips we were looking forward to the most. I really do not care about res and I'm sure I won't next gen either. I play all games regardless of platform from PC to the 3ds.its about fun for me.. Resolution has never been an issue of mine. Looking at your comment I think I'm the last person you should be talking to about that.

[Why o why]

To be fair onyoursistersback, Christocolus is generally a very positive dude. He can react to nonsense like anybody can but on the whole he airs on the optimistic side. There are people and hypocrites that need their face rubbed in their own crap every so often but I don't feel he's one of them. Some people really just prefer what the x1 is providing and don't care about any power gap and they have the right to defend that. I can respect that.

[Z_-_D_-_3]

Something tells me you don't care AT ALL about any other gaming company except Microsoft.

[Copen]

If you truly don't care about resolution then why buy an xbox one to begin with? If what you say is true you'd be just as happy keeping your 360 and not spending 500 on something you supposedly don't care about. Get real....And the cloud...OMFG

[christocolus]

@zd3 and copen

" funny thing is we all bought our consoles based on personal preference and ips we were looking forward to the most."

I said that in my comment above. You should have read that before making your comments.i play all games and ive never limited myself to one console in any generation but yeah, im more of an xbx fan cos i enjoy MS offerings a little bit more than sonys&nintendo..im a big halo,aom,pgr, gears and rare fan...its all about preference and besides the unnatural hate you guys have for the xbox one makes me like the console even more..

@copen

I bought an xbx one cos i knew i would get to play the next gen versions of the ips i like and any others ms has cooking up.

[Angels3785]

This is why you have one bubble. Every time someone brings up an argument (valid or not) against your ignorant single minded tunnel vision you block it out and run deeper and deeper into the cave.

Plato would not be impressed. You insist on your reality and run away from the exit to the cave or the light of the real world.

[Baccra17]

Plato was a eugenicist douche.

[Angels3785]

^^

Definition of Eugenics: the belief and practice of improving the genetic quality of the human population. It is a social philosophy advocating the improvement of human genetic traits through the promotion of higher reproduction of people with desired traits (positive eugenics), and reduced reproduction of people with less-desired or undesired traits (negative eugenics).

AKA you.

Its also the reason your bubble count is so low. People with credibility such and narrow-minded thinking such as his despite the reality is something darwin would want to eliminate from the gene pool.

[DragonKnight]

"To say nothing of MS recent Cloud demo that sent the nay-sayers into desperate excuse mode, "but, but, what if you don't have a good internet connection or electricity"

So a controlled, local demo that is not representative of real world conditions sent naysayers into desperate excuse mode?

Are you going to show which game on the Xbox One proves that the Cloud can make one Xbox One console as powerful as 3, because it sounds like you have that kind of proof now.

[MelvinTheGreat]

And yet when playstation now does the same thing, its the greatest thing ever.

[DigitalRaptor]

@ Melvin

Streaming a game, is technology that has been around for years.

What MS has suggested, and certain people naively believe, is that the cloud can make their console 3 times more powerful - is ridiculous to begin with. nothing suggests this tech can be successfully applied to the Xbone in real-world conditions, and even when it's at a stage where it can, we'll be moving on to the next-generation.

[DragonKnight]

For one, I didn't say anything about PlaystationNow, so can we say "off topic?"

Two, PlaystationNow ISN'T doing the same thing. PlaystationNow is a game streaming service, not magic designed to compensate for the shortcomings of a weaker console like MS claims Azure is all about.

Nice try though.

[MasterCornholio]

The only proof I need are how the games run. And at this moment multiplats are better on the PS4. I doubt that the cloud will change that.

[ShowGun901]

@melvinthegreat

what PSnow does is stream games that a last-gen system can play... its not saying it will make the ps4 more powerful. I'd call BS on that too.

[MASTER_RAIDEN]

i like how you started out a lie with "the fact of the matter is".

[MysticStrummer]

"To say nothing of MS recent Cloud demo that sent the nay-sayers into desperate excuse mode"

Nothing is pretty much what should be said about it, because without more details it proved nothing. If you think that's a desperate excuse, so be it.

[GTgamer]

"MS recent Cloud demo that sent the nay-sayers into desperate excuse mode,"

Omg we all knew this was coming and FWI a demo on High End PC's in a Controlled environment doesn't hold much weight and you say we have excuses about our internet not being good enough that's funny because when PSNow was announced I remember Xboxfans making the same excuses (•ิ_•ิ).

[avengers1978]

That most recent demo you speak of, was 2 high end rigs, not XB1... Maybe you should go back and watch that video again. Cause it has nothing in it about the XB1... A high end rig is one thing, but it surly ain't an the same as the XB1.

And for a group of people that did nothing but say power doesn't matter, you all sure get on here and talk about "secret sauce" and the "cloud" like there going to magically make the system more powerful, witch they won't.

Will devs figure out better ways to utilize the XB1, yes, will the XB1 ever be as powerful as PS4 NO!

When you talk about something like that video you mention, make sure you watched it and know what was said... 2 high end rigs one by itself, one with cloud and other devices.
Go back watch that again, listen to what they say... Cause in no way does it prove anything about XB1

[LexHazard79]

Secret sauce? I thought you PS fans made that up! Or did you actually read comments with Xbox fans using those words?

[I_am_Batman]

"To say nothing of MS recent Cloud demo that sent the nay-sayers into desperate excuse mode, "but, but, what if you don't have a good internet connection or electricity"

Don't act like that wouldn't become a problem. If we assume that the demo was all real then all we know is that it's possible to enhance the theoretical capabilities of a PC or console in the physics department by a lot. That's great. But is it possible to get the same effect when millions of users are accessing those external recources simultaniously? We don't know yet.

What we also don't know is how big the latency is or how much bandwidth is needed for cloud computing. There are still a lot of questions to be answered so exuse me if I stay sceptical until all the details are clear.

[mkis007]

Show me the same thing running on an xbox one and on a gpu pf a pc and then I'll agree with you.

"the fact of the matter is" MS set up a controlled test. Ask them for details see what you get.

[Thatlalala]

That "demo" was just that. Not one time during the whole presentation did they mention this is what Xbone games will do. Do your fucking homework troll.

[frostypants]

"I'm not an expert"

So why do we care what he says?

[solidboss07]

Ahh...... cross generation, multi platform MGS Ground Zeroes looks good everywhere, but XB1 version isn't really pushing beyond PS3 or 360? Explain that to us, please.
Funny and ironic that you mention 'cloud' when only the PS4 version of MGS GZ has dynamic sky and cloud simulation. Ha ha haaa.

[ADECENTBOY777]

Cloud is a good thing, but not for this generation, it's not possible to give all the 3-4 million gamers the same plus on graphical level. You'll never have the Box on the same level as PS4, since it's just much weaker on hardware level. Many big IT companies tested all the cloud possibilities in term of extra power and they all said, one day sure, but not in the near future. You just believe MS everything , right? Wake up boy! :)

[Jessika_S]

Titanfall is not 1080p, it's 792p on Xbox One.

[Bdub2000]

It is funny that the PS4 fanboys posting on a website, on the Internet, voicing their concerns over how some people don't have Internet. As with all things in life, if you can't afford it, or its not available to you, you don't get to use it. Everyone doesn't get a gold medal, everyone doesn't drive a Ferrari, not everyone will have access to the cloud. It's not a reason to bash this technological feat that will drop ps4 on its ass.

[razrye]

Please explain to me how it will drop ps4 on its ass. Will it be a big drop or one similar to how the ps4 is dropping the xbox on its ass. Also kid were does it say that the ps4 is far behind the xbox? Everyone knows that the ps4 is by far the more superior console. Fact.

[imt558]

@axios

That "cloud" destruction is already available on PC's, dude. High-end PC rig can't do that?! Or PS4 has "cloud" atmosphere in MGS V. Earth to axios and Xbone's fans...

[Anon1974]

If it wasn't a real issue, Microsoft wouldn't be addressing it. Period.

[Copen]

Point is the power reserve for the OS and Kinect is less than 10% and even giving that back isn't going to make or break a game running at 1080p/60fps this is nothing but an excuse like the excuses you yourself are making.

[lesrima88]

i applaud you for your efforts 10/10 for damage control 0/10 for logic

[XiSasukeUchiha]

The cloud demo did definitely seem possible for sure but there too many questions right now, and actually demo too on an actual would be an bonus but, Cloud compute concept is real but not actual cloud computing.

[BeAGamer]

english please

[hello12]

If people watched the whole video. There was more buildings in the scene than the one building been shown blown up. It was a tech demo-game sort of.

What it showed was a high end PC struggling to do the game physics, more stuff blown up the frame rate, got worse.

When Microsoft used the cloud and a high end PC the frame rate remained constant when stuff blew up.

So Microsoft is showing the cloud can increase performance substantially.

Is it going to come out tomo, or next year. That's doubtful. But we do see the cloud can render graphics afterall. I think its the future Microsoft is hoping for and the xb1 is a beta test of that future. I think we'll might some games belonging to Microsoft try it in a few years?

Multiplayer is an viable way to go than single player games.

[mkis007]

The problem they face is that by the time this is feasible for xbox one, it will be too late. It isn't like this is exclusive to MS.

[rainslacker]

It wasn't actually rendering graphics, it was computing the positions(transforms) of all those objects that were being created due to the building being blown up.

That's something that traditionally the CPU would do, but in newer game design models many of those tasks are offloaded to the GPU. This is particularly true for stuff with lots of physics changes, such as lots of moving objects, or particle effects.

It's worth noting that the GPU in both the X1 and the PS4 is capable of computing more objects than was shown in this demo as was demonstrated by NVidias CUDA demo a while back. However, it's also worth pointing out that doing so would mean taking rendering resources for drawing the actual frame.

I'm personally on the fence on if this demo was worthwhile, since it was being rendered on the CPU. It's a good working model of what they're hoping to achieve, but too little info was given for me to form an opinion based on my own experience with programming games.

[starscream01]

I think Microsoft is working hard at trying to make cloud work for the Xbox One.....but I also think the fruition will take longer than any of us like.....In the mean time just sit back and relax because until proven it's viable people will bash the ideal....

[ShowGun901]

its not the ideal, and its not anything that M$ actually said, its the stupid people online we don't like. using the cloud based computing (that we've seen 1 tiny demo of, not even on an x1) as a CURRENT SELLING POINT!

theres no telling whether it will work or not, but claiming (currently) that this will even the gap between the two systems is jumping to some SERIOUSLY UNFOUNDED conclusions.

[Raider69]

Old news!

[bneals]

Why is it so easy for people to believe that PS Now can steam a PS4 title, bit "latency" will stop the cloud from befitting the XB1?

[Bathyj]

Trust

[nukeitall]

Yeah, that trust is often called blind fanboyism!

[MasterCornholio]

@nukeitall

You do know that right now they are having a beta for PS Now?

Which means the technology will work from your console at home. Microsoft hasn't had any public demos yet of Xbox Live compute so its impossible to know if the technology works or not.

[Why o why]

'Yeah, that trust is often called blind fanboyism!'. . . . . . .well, you should know all about that right nuke. . .The irony is beyond strong with you my friend

[solidjun5]

"Yeah, that trust is often called blind fanboyism!"

Yea, your comments reek of it.

[mkis007]

Video stream(netflix) vs computing stream... one of these things is not like the other...

[HaydenJameSmith]

PS Now isnt video streaming and there is probably some sort of compression involved of the data making it feasable...

[mkis007]

It is video streaming... you are seeing a video of the game that is run elswhere, you are sending buttons back to it. There are no computations being done locally.

It absolutely is compressed. I tried using onlive and the grainy quality pissed me off. Lag was nearly "0" so it worked for its purpose though. But saying you are going to mix in computations off site with local is not the same thing as what ps now is.

The second you do something that requires a response you have to wait for the servers to send the data both ways and meanwhile you are still going in the game. VS on psnow a button press is bytes of data.

[iceman06]

Well...because it's already PROVEN tech AND it's being done...right now...in beta form. People are already streaming games on PS Now. It's tangible. Right now, MS is dealing with a "new" idea in prototype form. It's being shown in very controlled environments on hardware that isn't even close to the specs of XB1.
I completely understand the skepticism. However, I also welcome the idea if it becomes a tangible reality for console gaming. That remains to be seen.

[Destiny1080]

this is good

[Ch1d0r1]

Great questions and answers!

[UltraAtomic]

Wow the war has begun. the x1 fanboys has started to rise!!! XD

[Cryptcuzz]

Did someone say Ryse? Okay...bad joke (slow day at work for me)

As for this tech, it would be cool if it did work as they claim, because then Sony would be able to do the same with the PS4. So the power difference in favor of the PS4 will always be there, whether this will work as advertised or not.

Personally I don't think this is going to make much difference, considering I still know people in the U.S having abysmal download and upload speeds that would not be able to take advantage of this, if true that is.

[bornsinner]

if xbone had better hardware, easier development, removed kinect & made an interface simular to the xbox 360 & lowered the price they would have won it.

but now ps4 is the king.

i'll just wait on reviews before getting gears of war or halo.

[Father__Merrin]

liars liars liars
claiming you can't tell 1080 to 720 unless 50" screen blah blah
I sit at normal living room distance and image clarity is clearly aparant switching 1080 720

I use a 42"

lol 1080 don't matter to them anymore' they only care for what's currently offered to them' their fanboyism is proven ha ha

[frankdrebin72]

quick question,..does all the playstation games/ back libary that you have acces to stream,play. give 1080p resoultion? ..
Another question,..if they do not,..does it concern you so much that you cant enjoy the game?

think about it...

[Mrgolden79]

What concerns me is paying 100 dollars more for inferior hardware. Ask yourself where did that 100 go and if it was worth it. Think about it...

[frankdrebin72]

dont let it concern you,..its my money,..my choice,..my opinion,..what should concern you is the amount of ,..or should i say lack of money that sony has...but as usual,..most peeps who reply to a post try and throw a curve ball,..all i asked if the games you get free,..afterall you guys keeeeep saying this and the fact that they are not the golden fleece of gaming CONSOLES of 1080p...do they make them any less FUN?..you know ....F.U.N....thats why we PLAY games is it not?
Asfor the cloud,...maybe if Sony offered you. that,..would you grumble that extra 100 dollars price tag to keep them from going under??? mAnd offer you a slice of the future??
i ask a couple of questions and lo and behold the tired fanboy sarcasim pops up...think about that??
incase you never noticed i was being neutral...a game is a game,.a good game is a good game whatever the resoultion....but hey..playing a game with much more going on in it like a movie surely adds MORE fun regardless of 1080p or 720
and as for that extra 100 "bucks"....try dx12..and yes that is a game changer, cloud gaming,superior online my opinion,.quality build,kinect,seemless switching from games to tv ,..games that I want,..a cross platform experiance on window devices,.inovation trying to push the boundries of whats available for a gamer,...thats where it went,...but i guess that 100bucks you saved will go towards the prototype morpheous,..p r o t o t y p e.....still like the cloud in its infancy. but will get there also.
Dont be so quick to dismiss,..first the ps army said it wasnt possible,..now we have a demo,..now the ps army cry broadband issues,..honestly the guys at microsoft are so far ahead of you armchair genius's yet you are all experts in the field,....they are working at the forefont of technology. not the tail endings you guys pick up.
Instead of trying to be sarcastic just answer my two questions thats all i asked,..or anyone to answer.
remember to pull the pin out before you throw the grenade,..other wise there is a tendancy for it to be thrown back with the pin removed.

[Mrgolden79]

Wow your comments reek of fanboyism. All I did was tell you what concerned me and you went full retard on your xbox defense mode attacking the "ps army". Look dude, you're free to pick your console of choice and I am mine. I disagree with everything you said except for one part, which is that you prefer the types of games Xbox offers. Thats cool, I don't. I'm not a fan of Halo, or Gears of War, or Titanfall. I'm sick of shooter anything these days, and much rather RPGs and JRPGS, so I'm going with Sony. To answer your question, no, 1080p and graphics is not the end all be all. Hell, I fired up Dragon Warrior for the 8-bit NES recently and beat it up from the beginning and it was a blast. But, you're missing the point. If you take two identical games and one version has better resolution than the other, which would you prefer to play? Also, its kind of ridiculous that the game system with less graphical power also costs more. But in the end, if you like the xbox brand and their games and think that 100 extra dollars is justified than thats good for you, no need to resort to full blown us vs them mindset.

[frankdrebin72]

lol,..true true old bean,..but weather the game is better on one plat or another,..surely its not just that ,..that makes said person stay with that fonsole??...afterall my personal opinion is xbox live is better service,..thats my opinion,.so dont go saying this and that,..i just dont care..i pay for a sevice and unlike some peeps i was brought up to realise tthat nothing in life comes for free..
i wholeheartly agree,..its the game not the graphics,..and i sir commend you on that...i feel you may be older than most peeps...
As for reeks of fanboyism..hehehehe..we are in a disscusion on xbox one,..i am in the correct article,..i post my opinions..ps boys put their opunion in,..some. decent,..some pure shit..so hey..we can box,..or we can street fight??...
i understand that we all have opinions,choices,..but what i dont understand is the armchair tech warriors who know more than game developers,..or microsoft engineers..yet i bet for each one of them warriors apart from copy n paste credintials..do they really have the knowledge to go one on one with the ACTUAL designers of Dx13 etc etc...and if you say yes i can,..then..ask yourself why you do the job you do instead of working in that said field..thats if you work??..and yes some peeps here may be informed but i am on about tech that no one here has privy to.
i never mentioned ps4 as sony quiet..but same again,..regarding the above

[BABY-JEDI]

No one can deny the concept of Cloud processing as being a bad idea. I personally don't believe this gen is technically able to do this (to this extent). However, I look forward to a more robust internet service in the future & MS endeavours (& Sonys) within this technology.
; )

[corroios]

and no games...

[N8]

Wishful thinking until proven otherwise. Microsoft should just continue to make games that are worth playing and focus on getting multiplats running just as well on there console as it does on PS4. My x1 is pretty much taking up space as I refuse to get the weaker version of whatever game on it. I try to balance out my games on both systems, its been pretty hard to do so far. Just fix it and shut up.