Thief Dev Says Melee System "Not Good On Purpose"

During an NYCC panel today Thief's lead level designer Dan Winfeld Schmidt said the melee was "not good on purpose" to discourage fans from ignoring stealth.

[porkChop]

That's not a good reason at all. Either do a good melee system or don't do one at all. Doing it half assed is ridiculous and it brings down the quality of the overall game. This sounds more like an excuse for being lazy than anything. Purposely doing something half assed, and then telling you fans about it, is not a good way to convince people to have faith in the overall product. What other features did they sloppily throw together?

[zeal0us]

They should've made a good melee system and left the choice up to the player on which method to use.

No telling what has happen with the development team since April.

http://www.polygon.com/2013...

Something telling I will be waiting a while before I pick this game up.

[JokesOnYou]

Well then I guess I'm not going to buy the game on purpose.

I mean I get it he wants the focus on stealth but imo thats a terrible way to implement it....why not just make the stealth so rewarding that its much more likely the user will choose that route instead of gimping his fighting ability?

[Jyndal]

The melee systems in the other thief games were bad, and it made sense. You're a thief, not a soldier or an assassin. A single soldier could butcher you in seconds in the other games, so it was in your best interest to not be seen or heard, to use misdirection and trickery to survive. There's nothing sloppy about it, it's just making a stealth game a stealth game.

[Fishy Fingers]

Bingo.

[DragonKnight]

Yeah, because there are no thieves who know how to fight at all.

[grassyknoll]

Reading this has actually made me more excited about the game.

[lfPetrini]

You have to understand that most people here must be around 12 years old and probably don't even know this is the fourth game in the series.

[theEx1Le]

To be fair @DragonKnight, your thief knows how to fight, just badly by the sounds of it.

[KillrateOmega]

@DragonKnight

He can fight. He just can't fight well. Pay attention, man.

It's a STEALTH game, people. You're supposed to use your head, not your fist :/

[Pintheshadows]

Garrett has always been more flight than fight. The first two games would decimate you if you tried to stand your ground.

[come_bom]

"Thief Dev Says Melee System "Not Good On Purpose""

This is one of the dumbest excuses i have ever heard!
I agree @porkChop... do a good melee system or don't do it at all. Let the player have the choice of how he wants to play the game, melle or stealth.

Every time i hear news about this game, i get discouraged.

[KillrateOmega]

Except it's no an excuse at all.

Think about it. You're a thief. You have a thief's body: lean, lithe, and nimble. You're not built to just step out into the open and start fist-fighting every living thing you come across.

You're not an assassin nor are you Kung Fu Jesus. You're just some dude who steals sh*t from from the shadows.

It's a STEALTH game. As such, they designed it so that you would have to play it in a stealthy manner. If you're not interested in using your head and instead just mindlessly killing every man/woman you come across until you get what you want, then go play Assassin's Creed or something.

[Blaze929]

Lol really developers? That's where we at now? They all might as well be like, "Forza driving not good on purpose," "guns have terrible accuracy on purpose in CoD," "Oh that glitch? That's on purpose as well as that bug." "And this is all to create a better experience for the player."

Dumbest excuse ever

[Hicken]

Man, people definitely know how to be ridiculous.

I'm talking about you, by the way.

You're not a trained soldier. You're a thief. In today's world of instant gratification, not too many people would willingly take the stealth route if they knew that could fairly easily take down every enemy they ran across. It unfortunate, but that's the mindset of the majority of gamers.

So if you want a stealth game that excels at being stealth, an if you want people to actually experience how good that stealth is, then you have to discourage playing other ways.

[ThichQuangDuck]

N4G complains when ridiculous action heroes doing too much COD like set pieces stung together as over the top. When games not fully focused on combat called STEALTH GAMES do not have combat they complain. They ruin great franchises like Splinter Cell by making the game what they want it to be for the sheer reason that they do not like stealth games and patience. It is a genre of game if you don't like it then it is pretty simple don't buy it. There are fans of how it works. It makes sense design wise it is not equivalent to driving bad in forza or accuracy in COD. Those games don't aim for the fun of actually driving a car and the consequences. Call of duty isn't aimed at realism like Arma. Thief is aimed at STEALTH fans if you want to kill every guard it is going to make it difficult to do so but you can. You use the tools you are given.

[porkChop]

@ThichQuangDuck

I'm not saying the game should be action focused. I'm saying that if you're going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all. Don't purposely put a shitty system in your game just so players don't use it. That's a waste of resources that could be used to make the rest of the game better. Don't do melee at all if you don't want players to use melee.

[ThichQuangDuck]

@PorkChop

I think people are over reading this comment when he says Melee system is not good. I take it that it is a basic melee system that is not very effective at dispatching elements but works fine as a game mechanic. Is put there in case of tense situations in those stealth moments when as players we fuck up but we want to continue playing. It is not put in there to be used other than fuck ups from what I can understand.

[ninjahunter]

He clarified that they made the combat system not very fun, or rewarding to discourage people like the call off duty, or assassins creed crowd from just tanking through levels.

To be fair to the devs, The melee in all the thief games have had this theme, and very few people have complained about it.

[PixelNinja]

I actually like that, I would never imagine person fist fighting their way through enemies easily; getting into a fist fight should take a toll on the player.

[Zeniix]

Yeah guys the gameplay sucks on purpose btw

[sdozzo]

It's a hard balance to make but I hope the game is good.

[DragonKnight]

The sales will tank on purpose too.

[Jyndal]

Really?! You really think the sales on the latest installment of a classic series is going to tank?

Please, show some restraint in your sweeping judgement of a series you obviously know little to nothing about. As a fan of the very first game, I can promise you that this game will do just fine in sales. In fact, if I were to read about the devs going on about the spectacular combat engine, I'd be sorely disappointed.
The game isn't about fighting. It's about stealing without getting caught, and being able to make a daring escape when you DO get caught.

In short, I'm expecting Thief to redefine the entire stealth genre, just as it did in the past.

[Roccetarius]

Ahem, i think you have too high hopes for this ''Thief'' game. Nothing this game is doing, is something that Dishonored didn't do already in recent time.

I would even dare say, that they saw how successful Dishonored was, then changed their ideas.

[KillrateOmega]

@Roccetarius

"I would even dare say, that they saw how successful Dishonored was, then changed their ideas."

How so? Because, if you don't already know, Arkane studios (the makers of Dishonored) have already come out and said that, while making their game, they drew inspiration from the Thief series.

[KillrateOmega]

Thanks, Nostradamus...

[DragonKnight]

At the crying Thief fans who can't see the truth staring at them in the face: This developer came out an told everyone they purposely made an aspect of the game bad. This will definitely kill enthusiasm for the game. There is no need of this at all and it merely shows they didn't want to come up with a good combat system. Everything coming out about this installment of Thief is bad news. You're allowing nostalgia to cloud your judgement and you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

"In short, I'm expecting Thief to redefine the entire stealth genre, just as it did in the past."

"Please, show some restraint in your sweeping judgement of a series you obviously know little to nothing about."

Take your own advice.

[KillrateOmega]

You. Are. Not. A. Fighter.
You. Are. A. Thief.
This. Is. Not. Assassin's. Creed.

The combat system isn't supposed to be good, because Garrett is not a good combatant.

This is a stealth game, not a 'play-your-way' game. You are being heavily encouraged to use your head and THINK your way out of situation as opposed to FIGHTING your way out.

God forbid a developer purposely discourage players from mindlessly killing every enemy that enters their line of sight, thus promoting the theme of a stealth game. Such a thing is simply impossible; therefore, the developers are bad... /s

If you (and anyone else here who appear to have no previous experience with the franchise) are too obstinate to grasp this concept, then this game will clearly not be your cup of tea.

[DragonKnight]

"You. Are. Not. A. Fighter.
You. Are. A. Thief.
This. Is. Not. Assassin's. Creed."

That. Doesn't. Matter.
Purposely. Making. Bad. Design. Choices. Is. Wrong.
Who. Says. Thieves. Are. Wimps?

"The combat system isn't supposed to be good, because Garrett is not a good combatant."

Cop out. If they wanted to make the game purely about stealth, they'd have no combat system at all and either force a restart of the current objective or force a get away. Having a combat system and making it purposely bad shows poor judgement and last minute decision to change things up and needing an excuse to get away with a terrible design choice.

"This is a stealth game, not a 'play-your-way' game. You are being heavily encouraged to use your head and THINK your way out of situation as opposed to FIGHTING your way out."

Implying that you can't do that with a decent combat mechanic as well, or that people wouldn't try to do that anyway so why not just make it terrible instead of removing the mechanic altogether which would make more sense and not bring up the question of what else was made terrible on purpose.

"God forbid a developer purposely discourage players from mindlessly killing every enemy that enters their line of sight, thus promoting the theme of a stealth game. Such a thing is simply impossible; therefore, the developers are bad... /s"

God forbid a designer have standards and use logic and common sense when designing a stealth game and simply remove all ability to fight since they don't want people to fight anyway. There aren't any stealth games at all in all the history of the genre that have a good fighting mechanic and still play better if you play stealthily. Oh wait, there are tons of them.

"If you (and anyone else here who appear to have no previous experience with the franchise) are too obstinate to grasp this concept, then this game will clearly not be your cup of tea."

Ah the assumption game. Because everyone knows that if you question a bad design choice it means you haven't had any experience with previous installments of the game. It has nothing to do with the fact that the decision is a cop out and just a bad decision. It has nothing to do with the fact that the decision lacks even the most basic sense and ignores better options in favour of keeping the bad mechanic. No, it's because we "just don't get the series."

When this game comes out and you're disappointed, and you will be, remember today when you overlooked a bad design choice and tried to justify it with who the character is and maybe decide to be just a little more analytical about games in the future. Perhaps then developers won't be able to so easily sell you purposefully terrible design choice born of laziness and a lack of basic sense. You have to demand better of games.

So far, most impressions about Thief haven't been good and then the dev comes out with this. Because that's such a genius move to make. Make people look at the game and wonder what else was made purposely bad. At the very least it shows us who does not have good standards when it comes to games.

[Jyndal]

Dude, I've been rocking on Thief since it was first released. It certainly wasn't the first game to employ the stealth aspect (that honor goes to Metal Gear) but it was a defining moment in the genre.
The character Garrett, the main protagonist of the Thief series isn't a fighter in any sense of the word. Oh, sure, he might get in a stealth kill or 2, but at heart he simply wants to grab the loot and make off with it. It simply wouldn't make sense that all of a sudden he's a fifth degree black belt in ninjitsu or some such. He's a thief. He steals, and gets away. That's it, and that's why the series has always been so entertaining.

Oh, and I'm allowed to make my sweeping judgments. I'm a return player. Are you? No, of course you aren't. If you were, you wouldn't be trying to make such an asinine argument.

[DragonKnight]

"Oh, and I'm allowed to make my sweeping judgments. I'm a return player. Are you? No, of course you aren't. If you were, you wouldn't be trying to make such an asinine argument."

LOL! Employing the Cartman method of arguing something are you? Laughable.

[rainslacker]

@Killrate

I get where you're coming from, but there are ways to discourage people from fighting other than just making the game play mechanic bad. For instance, make it good, and fun for when it's needed, but make it highly ineffective in achieving your goal. To expand, they could make it where the fighting would be maybe good enough to give the player time to escape, or make a "daring escape" as one user above put it.

If a game play element is going to be put into a game, it should be fun, and well designed. Just my two cents.

@Dragon

Your more intelligent than this to make a sweeping generalization that the game will fail because of one feature. I played thief a long time ago. Was never a fan, but the game was alright, and it seems that the game itself is trying to stay close to it's roots. That is good for fans. It's better than the constant rehash of clones that do the same thing every other game in it's genre are doing.

The game looks interesting and I'll likely give it a go despite not being a fan of the series.

[DragonKnight]

@rainslacker: Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I just really think that coming out and saying "we purposely made this bad" is either the result of a terrible design choice or an indictment against the skill of the devs and will definitely impact enthusiasm for any game. Even if I am 100% wrong about that, it's not exactly smart to come out and tell people you purposely chose to make a game mechanic bad just to discourage its use. It's far more logical to just remove the mechanic altogether.

Just my $.02

[Relientk77]

I just hope the game is good, because I plan on getting it

[DoctorJones]

As it should be in a Thief game. I find it funny to read comments from people who obviously haven't played the other games in the series and make this out to be a bad thing.

This is a pure stealth game, it's not a choose your way game, the whole point of Thief games is to play stealthy. If you're not a fan of that or the series, then this game clearly isn't for you.

[Pintheshadows]

It is because a majority of the people who post here were likely still in their dad's sack or in diapers. Thief never had strong combat. Melee wise Garrett was weak and useless unless he got the jump on someone. That was the whole point. This is not an action game.

[porkChop]

I've been playing Thief since the beginning and I still think this is a stupid idea. You can't use the excuse that all Thief games have bad melee because melee systems were still very primitive at the time. There is no excuse in this day and age to have a bad melee mechanic, it's just laziness.

Now, if you don't want players to use melee, that's absolutely fine. Here's what you do: don't make a melee system. Just don't do it. Purposely going through the trouble of creating a melee system just to have a bad melee system is a horrible idea and a big waste of time and resources. If the game is supposed to be played without melee then it obviously doesn't need a melee system at all, does it?

I really just don't understand the logic behind this decision. All the time and resources that were wasted on that system could have been used to make the rest of the game better.

[nofallouthero]

as it should be

[ado908]

Might as well say the game is not so good on purpose too xD

[Max-Zorin]

The main character better go learn Krav Maga. Seriously though, I don't ever recall him knowing how to fight anyway, so this is not a surprise. It actually make sense, unlike Vampire Rain.