G.O.W. banned in Germany

A few months ago there was trouble over Dead Rising in Germany, getting into trouble for its excessive violence. Now it appears that Epic's upcoming horror-shooter, Gears of War, will be banned from the German market.
German USK, responsible for videogame ratings, refused to give the game a rating, despite several submissions from Microsoft. Microsoft and Epic decided not to make a less-violent version for the German market because it would "fundamentally change the gameplay", resulting in compatibility issues with different versions on Xbox Live.

[MJ23007]

This is what happens when you live under a socialistic government, this is what the democrats want for us in the US. Soon u too wont be able to play GOW

[dikturbo]

Not the Democrats, it would be the bible thumping Republicans that would enact a fool censorship ruling like that. The Republicans are so far up the church's ass you don't know where the head begins.
I agree with the comment though. This is not good for gaming in general.

Anyone else getting the hypocrisy of the former nazi regime restricting a violent game. Life offers us such cruel irony. Import it I guess.

[willymcd]

i agree christian conservatives are trying to destroy progress and censure everything.
and the bad thing is that the majority in political office, are strongly influenced by religion, even the Democrats, $crew Democrats and republicans, start voting for independents.
but there is another force along with religion and the fcc, irrational mothers who look past their bad parenting and blame media. Then there are really just those psychos out there who really might start killing people with an umbrella because he saw it on dead rising. but the dude is obviously a nut, just because a game gives an idea how to kill someone doesn't mean the game is telling him killing is good, you have to be a nut to get that idea. It really is irrational to ban a game like gears of war, or any game for that matter.

[zonetrooper5]

Wow they are very tough on video games in germany aren't they, well its very unlucky for some german gamers.

[Yo Wassap]

You should read the article in the Guinness Book of Records 2000 about graphical display laws in Germany. Obviously they've changed a bit since then but the escence is still there:

"Most Rigorous Sofware Regulations:
Germany has regulations stipulating that blood shown on computer games be green, and that victims that are likely to end up getting killed are portrayed as zombies, or as far from human as possible"

That's from the GBoR 200-, page 168 in the Technology section

[Marriot VP]

Can't germany ever get a break, what did they ever do to us.

Ohh shoot, nevermind.

The thing to stop this game from being in Germany is from the incredible blood effects of it shooting out of bodies and when you chainsaw you get a screen splattered with blood drops. Yah I can see why, but this is totally retarded of them or any country to come down so hard video game wise. Unless it encourages racism or bad ethics it should be allowed.

[zonetrooper5]

They would be crying as i keep on killing them over and over again but now i don't have to listen to them over the headset as they will cry themselves to sleep this november.

[BrotherSic]

Its funny as I am currently living in Leipzig, Germany and they have pre order boxs for GOW in all the game shops.

I have no idea though how someone can decide what an adult can play or can not play.

[USMChardcharger]

i agree on the adult comment.

[kingboy]

to hell with them just command it online and viola!Many germans do speak english anyway..

[TheMART]

Haha stupid German politics. Is this all a consequence from the WII (no not the Wii, you know what I mean) and now they want to restrict all violence or something?

I can't think of other reasons for real. Glad I am living in the Netherlands speaking Dutch, right not Deutsch and we're not a province of Germany although some Germans still think it is by speaking German not trying to speak Dutch or English.

But wel... I guess I'd should say then: Ich möchte gerne meine fahrad zurruck! Just joking, it's bad if this really is the case.

That Gears can't be sold in Germany. Porno may be sold, horror movies may be sold, but a game above 18 may not?

STRANGE

Good to read they're available in Leipzig though

@ Kingboy I guess you don't run into many Germans overhere I guess?? They can't or don't want to speak English and if they do they sound bad, many times as worse as Arnold Schwarzenegger. No offence to any German overhere that speaks it right but in Summer I get mad by the people parking all over the city speaking no English at all

[BrotherSic]

Personally I have found that nearly all young germans (under 25) speak English. Their English is usually very good as well.

At GC everything was in English from Speeches to directions. I truely admire the language skills of my fellow Spreadshirt.net (Shameless pun)workers and wish that I had receive better language education whilst at school.

[Sidherich]

yep all speeches were in english and i only attended one session were the speaker was hardly able to express himself properly. I almost fell asleep during that lesson. But nevertheless he did a great job at trying :)

[Gamer13]

Sad day for german gamers who want GOW.

IM OUT.

[sparco]

Can i just ask why you have to put "IM OUT" at the end of every post? It sounds sad.

I feel sorry for Germany btw. But if ya wanna hear my real feelings, read #12
:-P

[Boink]

german porn is some of the sickest stuff on the planet...and yet somehow GOW is bad?

[THWIP]

...how/why you know that. o_O

[Boink]

I walked right into that one:)

but seriously, remeber southpark and the german films cartman's mom used to do?

[kmis87]

That was so sick in the movie! South Park is one of my favorite shows on television. New episode tonight!

[InMyOpinion]

"This is what happens when you live under a socialistic government, this is what the democrats want for us in the US. Soon u too wont be able to play GOW"

Germany isn't run by socialists. Maybe you should ask your president to do what your country does best, invade Germany and force them to do as you say. And while you're at it, throw in some concentration ca...i mean "military prisons" like Guantanamo too.

[USMChardcharger]

you know, i debated on weather or not to even say anything.

i am a US MARINE and i have brothers dying everyday for someone they don't even know.

our country send young men and women into harms way for others and they are willing to do so.

i know that some of you from other countries don't believe that. but if you only know what was really in our hearts.

and have you asked anyone living in Iraq if they are glad or not we are there?

if you where there, you might be singing a different tune.

and don't freakn forget we are holding people because our freakn country was ATTACKED. (o, iam sorry we should just forget about that)

i know that you where mad at MJ23007. but don't drag my President or my country into your insults when you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

what would you do if you where the President (who was just elected) and your country was attacked for the fist time since Pear Harbor.

you are just jumping on the band wagon. or the cool thing to do, which is to say US sucks and so does President Bush.

It makes me sooo mad. and all the money and aid we give away, for others instead of using it to help ourselves.

i am done with this topic...i won't respond.

sorry to everyone else about my rant. please do excuse me.

[Sidherich]

yep i can understand your point as a former soldier myself (reservist now).

i think there are always lots of viewpoints to a specific topic and i always try to see all of them. I must confess that i normally fail doing so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

following scientific researches i would say that neither of us can tell truth but rather all people of all the countries involved averaged know the truth.

you see i have just way too many bubbles to carry around... sorry <.<

[Schmitty07]

Who really cares about those terorists down in Guantanomo? If they weren't there they would be shooting at our troops in the Middle East or killing American citizens.

[sjappie]

The 911-attacks were setup by the Bush administration so that they would have a reason to go to war. It's very sad, but you and your brothers are dying in Irak just to get Bush and his posse of criminals money and power.It's about time Americans open their eyes and see truth.Just ad up all the facts and you'll know it's true. Go to "whatreallyhappened.com. Ps I respect you guys in the army but you're fighting for an "evil" cause to put it in Bush' terms.

[willymcd]

if any of those retards in washington ever studied military history, this whole thing would be a lot better. the thing i like to is how some of them try to deny that this is like anything in history.
but obviously they are not familiar with clausewitz who is the king of military stratagy! also it looks like they have missed the lessons learned in vietnam (especially vietnam and westmoreland's extremely bad tactics which are being used again) and countless other wars and skermishes.
there have been so many bad decisions, and so many people who are not qualified for anything put in possitions of power.

I also like how out military people and the supporters of the war believe that they are fighting for democracy and freedom, wake up you fools, your making things worse, and the longer we fight the more freedoms we lose!

[Shenmue Legacy]

You know, I've been wondering whats wrong with us. I mean, to cut someone up with a chainsaw!
We're all sick bastards.
Maybe Game developers should be trying to create games that arn't as controversial. Look at Nintendo - never controversial, yet they make some of the best games in the world. They don't affend anyone, they don't get banned, and the whole family can enjoy them. Adult games shouldn't always = hardcore violence. Actually makes me realize how juvenile our hobby is...

[RBlaze]

I dunno man... that 'Luigi' fellow offended me on so many levels!

[THWIP]

Is that heavy sarcasm....or are you just f***ing insane? O_O

[RBlaze]

.

[THWIP]

Good answer; sometimes the best response, is none at all. ;) :p

[Sidherich]

It is NOT the case that the game couldn't be sold here in germany. It is the case that Microsoft has a policy against selling this game here.

let me start at the basics:

the USK is there to test the games similar to the ESRB. A game can get USK0, USK6, USK12, USK16 and USK18 or the USK can not rate it at all.
This has two consequences:

1. You can only buy it if you are 18 or older

2. You are not allowed to give or show it to minors

This has one major consequence: The game isnt allowed to be displayed in public stores accassible by minors. It is howewer possible to ask the cleric directly for it and he could, after verifying your age, sell it to you. The game/movie is said to be "on the index" then.

There are few cases under which a game would actually banned from germany. Most notably it is showing Nazi symbols (as in Wolfenstein). But that is forbidden in general with the exceptions of art (video games are not cosidered art tho) or documentaries.

So the game isnt forbidden in any way its just restricted in the way it is sold. So why isnt it sold in germany at all now? Microsoft has a policy of only selling rated games. Its part of their "protect the children" campaign i think. So since the game doesnt get any rating because of its gore Microsoft follows its own policy of not releasing it. The same happened with two games before. Condemned and Dead Rising. I could buy both games at my local ebgames store as imports. Condemned even was a localized version so i expect the same to happen with GOW. After all there are several german speaking countries where the game is released.

I for one will make it the same i always do. I'll just buy the import version which will be common (and legal) around here.

@ #1 we never were a socialistic country. maybe you meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... ? There is a phrase here in germany: "Wenn man keine Ahnung hat. Einfach mal Fresse halten" "If one has not the faintest idea. Just shut the f*** up"´

#4
People thinking like you were actually the people that helped the Nazi's raise to power.
It wouldn't be very difficult for me to create a name for north american people using food named after a german food which was in turn named after the beautiful town of Hamburg. Maybe adding some prejudices about people from the southern part of the states. Adding some random prejudices just for the fun of it.

But actually i always experienced people from the states (you are from NA as i have checked in your profile) as friendly and open people. I'm willing to believe that you are the sad exception.

If anyone wants to further discuss this with me just toss me an e-mail @ [email protected]

nuff said

[THWIP]

Anyway, bad grammar aside....

My comment was purely in jest...heavy sarcasm. If you took it any other way, it's because you simply don't know me as the jokester I am.
But thanks for clearing up the ratings issue, as that makes a bit more sense; of course, I'd already stated the same as you, concerning imports. ;)

[Marriot VP]

yah okay THWIP, this whole Nazi thing is just one big joke. And germans in no way are going to be offended if you call them all Nazis.
You either have no good sense of humor or your a problem child. Your so called "joke" didn't take any intelligent thought, that's why it's not funny and that's why it's very offensive.
I had 2 years ago when I was in High school we had a German exchange student and sure enough her visit was during our history class's review of WW2. My teacher watched as she held her head low crying etc. And after the class she came up to the teacher and asked him why her people could do such a thing.

It's a good story, next time don't be such a ding dong

[MJ23007]

yeah guantamamo is alot like conc camps..idiot.. were murduring arabs their every day, I guess youve been their right? Yes Germany is socialist, and I have been there.

[CompGeek]

And I suppose you HAVE been there?

Have you seen them get their heads sawed off as they did to our citizens?

[Sidherich]

first of all: no germany as you know it today is not a socialist country. And actually never was. After WW2 germany was split in two halfs divided by a wall. One part was called Federal Republic of Germany and the other one was called German Democratic Republic. The Federal Republic of Germany was and still is a Federal Republic. The former German Democratic Republic was socialist until October 1990. After those two states were reunified the official name was "Federal Republic of Germany" and it still is a Federal Republic since then. Can you name any other federal republics in the world? a little tip: starts with United and ends with America.

[CompGeek]

Here's an even bigger hint, the U.S.A. is a democratic republic.

[CompGeek]

Socialism sucks

[SPAWN]

The German government totally sucks for this! All M$ has to do is release Gears of War with no region locks and then the people can order it online and play it anyways! Wait til RFOM gets there and the`re gonna pull the same sh!t! This really, really SUCKS! I`m glad that I don`t live there!

[Sidherich]

there is one region lock for whole europe. so there are no problems at all

[THELANDSOFSAND]

RFOM doesn't have body cavity grenade inserts and chainsaw guns.

;)

[THELANDSOFSAND]

damn, that really sucks. its stuff like this that made me leave europe...

GERMAN 360 OWNERS- cross the border, buy lots of copies, bring home, sell.

:)

[borgome]

now we don't have to read his pointless rants.

[Aflac]

"damn, that really sucks. its stuff like this that made me leave europe...

GERMAN 360 OWNERS- cross the border, buy lots of copies, bring home, sell."

Its none of the governments dam business if the German citizens own this game--its just a f***ing videogame, doesnt make ppl go homicidal, just the greatly disturbed few.

[THELANDSOFSAND]

dude, i hope no one goes homicidal with a chainsaw gun anytime soon!

[kmis87]

German gamers can't play Gears of War, but Uwe Boll can continue using the money of the German government to make his "movies." Something is horribly wrong in Germany.

[Gamer13]

That just me when i leave home i tell my home boys IM OUT, just relax you sound more sad because you aint got shiit to say - and your the fist person to ask me that, All you need to do is say what you got to say about the topic and leave me alone you punkk.

Mybe when i say IM OUT it hurts you - it will hurt more because i won,t stop saying it.

IM OUT.

[BIadestarX]

I'm usually accused of being an xbox fanboy, but this time I will give a different opinion about this game.
I think Epic had/has an obsession over the gore and chainsaw. I remember an MTV clip about this game wher bill gates was not too happy about it. I know that many people want to see games like this where you can see the guts flying all over and seeing body parts and blood when playing video games. But this is not something that the majority of people find amuzing. How do you spect people (mostly not gamers) to see this game with favor? As games become more real(graphics) developers are going to have to slow down a bit. I'm sure they could add an option where the gore could be reduced or remove. I don't think this would affect game play. I'm still buying this game, and in USA gore is like saying porno in japan, but you can't blame people for not wanting so much gore. G.O.W may be the game with the most gore ane any console game ever made. And you don't expect critism?

[THELANDSOFSAND]

oh come on, if i'm a fricking soldier and 20 foot aliens invade the planet and start some sh1t then i'm not going to reach for the pocket knife.

this is a SHOOTING game. if you kill a huge alien expect blood! if you want flowers and gardening buy viva pinata (i will be!)

[BIadestarX]

I agree with you 1000%, and I'm getting this game too. But if microsoft and Epic are targetting certain market known to have problem approving this kind of content they should try to design the game with those requirements in mind or don't bother trying. This is like trying to ignore japan's rpg games and give them only FPS. Well if they want games to be approve in Germany then they should try to go by their rules, if not don't bother with that market, look elsewhere.

[kingboy]

lol! the party tonight is really gettin hotter on this issue.i think some of us have over cross the border.Lets no say sh@t about the germans just because some simple game gets banned.Every country got issues ,even the united states which use to be an example has become something else and is doing lots of weird decisions these days..

[shotty]

Dont worry, you can allows import.

[kewlkat007]

They come out with like, a Mortal Kombat for SNES type of G.O.W for the german Market. Plz there are more worst things on t.v these days, then banning a gory game.

[Boink]

if the game was the exact same, but the blood was green, I bet it would be fine....what a sad, sad world.

[MyNameIsNotRick]

You can buy a women in any decent sized town but you won't be able to get this game? Give me a break.

[Marriot VP]

well they got their priorities all mixed up

That's what happens when you dabble in flesh trade

[ASSASSYN 36o]

What ever they will get the game by ordering through the internet. Meanwhile, I`ll be playing it!

[PS360PCROCKS]

Very lame...this is unfair for someone to tell you what you can and cannot play

[alilhappything]

Yeah no kidding, censorship of this sort is utterly pointless.

[neeharb]

You know it sounds so funny Germans banning the voilent games hehehe after their voilent history thus comes as a surprise...
Even i agree i think people should be given their freedom to choose what they wanna do ,play, see what ever...censorship sucks in a way...

[FeralPhoenix]

sjappie your post is completely ridiculous, you make a wild accusation and to back it up you post a stupid internet conspiracy site, WTF thats your proof?....I can find conspiracy theories for just about any significant historic event on the internet.

willymcd you talk about history as if you are a superior war strategist because you read about clausewitz, lol....well keep reading buddy because if you really knew anything about history then you would know that in war there are alot of things that go wrong for both sides, I'm not defending the President Bush at all, I think he's made some mistakes, but even if you don't like him you have to at least understand that 911 put him in a bad situation of being damm if he do or damm if he doesnt because no matter what strategy or course of action he used people would say its all wrong, but the worst part of your post is where you call the soldiers fools because in your words they think they are fighting for democracy and freedom....oh really? you know what they think? Well if you really knew them (and yes I do), you would know that the majority of them are just good men and women who believe in helping others, they actually care about more than just themselves, but of course you only know what you see on TV, you've never been to Iraq to see the good things that they are doing for kids and the people of Iraq.

DoubleThree you stereotyped everyone in uniform as being "brainwashed", WHY?, because they actually believe in doing something they think is right?....I'm sure 99% of them don't wake up in the morning and say "hey, I want to give my life for Bush"....no maybe they just believe they are doing something important, who are you to say they are fools and its just about money? I guess all 3 of you have these super top secret government jobs and all the inside info. so you know the true reason behind the war, yeah critics said that it was all about oil too, but gas is even higher, and now the same critics are complaining that the war is too expensive and we should have used Iraqi oil to pay some of the expenses, which is not happening, also if Bush & Company recieve a dime from the war....the American media would tear him to pieces, fact is they hate Bush and would expose anything to make him look bad even it it looks bad for America, media is big business these days and its all about ratings, come on you guys are ridiculous, its easy to follow or jump on the bandwagon, huh? You think you are smart and know whats going on in the world because you watch ABC news or the BBC, lol....keep watching TV, and soon you will be a genius from all "great" information you've learned. I suggest you guys just stick to videogames and don't worry about complicated matters waaaaaaay above your heads.

How convenient that all of you get to enjoy the freedom of sitting comfortably at home and making silly comments about the war while the guys in Iraq make sure YOU CAN.....and its doesn't matter if you are American or not because these guys are against anybody who doesn't share there extreme fanactical views. There's a quote thats perfect for guys like you; "There's two types of people in this world, those who critisize and those who get things done." -Those guys in Iraq are brave people who get things done....and well you guys are just critics. USMChardcharger, personally I would like to thank you for your service.

Now on topic....GOW is for entertainment, if they don't want kids to play it thats fine, use the rating system.... horror movies show much more graphic violence they have ratings for movies, but nobody's saying that adults can't watch them, right?.....bottom line, no one should have the right to tell adults what games they can or cannot play.

[Genki]

but I already did a while ago and it won't let me do it again!>:(

Anyway, you've definitely got your head on straight, as the Marines and Soldiers deployed abroad aren't mindless zombies as others would suggest, and yes, the media is for the most part, full of crap.
Personally, I can understand if someone doesn't support the mission, effort, operation or whatever you'd like to call it, everyone has their own outlook on things of that nature...but to defame the troops...that is all kinds of wrong.

Not everybody over there is exactly peachy about being in a hostile foreign nation. Folks in the military are just like any other human being, they put their pants on no differently than anyone else. With that said, how can someone degrade a group of people ready, willing, and able to die for them? Like I said, you can debate about the effort all you want, but those Marines and Soldiers whom you may think are mindless brainwashed zombies may end up fighting for your life one day...

There's something the troops have called discipline, and this is exactly why some of them fight for a cause or in an effort that they may not necessarily agree with. It's one of the many things that drives them to fight against something they're scared to death of, it's why they would fight for you any day of the week without knowing who the hell you are. That's discipline folks, wake up and smell the daisies, it's got NOTHING to do with being brainwashed.

Kudos phoenix, it's about time somebody appreciated the troops...too many people take everything and anything for granted.

[sjappie]

I make an accusation simply based on facts. Here in Europe we get uncensored news unlike you guys in America where the media don't dare to write a critical story. I've been investigating to whole story because it's one of the greatest injustices in the history imo.It's so damn obvious just by adding up the facts. I didn't use the site to back up my statements, but for people to see the facts and then make up their own mind.You atleast got to admit some strange things happened before,during and after the 911-attacks that don't ad up. And like I said, I respect you guys in the army, but your government is all about money,power and imperialism. I understand it's hard to accept that you are dying and fighting for a lie but it's the truth. The direct reason to invade Irak were the weapons of mass destruction Saddam was supposed to have. Where are the weapons now? Never found, never there, a big lie,one of the many. So there goes your reason for the war.Just a fact, where there are many more facts that show the truth if you only open your eyes. Maybe ten years from the truth will be known and you Americans will see what horrible mistakes you made by backing up your President who doesn't give a uck bout you.Not to say all Americans cause I know a lot of you hate Bush to. Open your eyes!

[JPomper]

Y'know, while Germany may allow nudity on television, I'd still rather have my violent video games.

[USMChardcharger]

i am a free thinking individual. i freely choose to join the service.
i am not a soldier, i am a MARINE. soldiers are in the Army.

i am not commenting on the rest. nothing anyone else said made any sense.

lets move on...the one thing we all have in common is we game. so let's go back to that.

thank you

[FeralPhoenix]

sjappie you wrote in your #11.4 post:
"The 911-attacks were setup by the Bush administration so they would have a reason to go to war."
-Then you say in your 33.2 post that you make your accussations based on facts....bro that doesn't even past the laugh test, do you understand what the definition of fact is?, simply put a fact is a statement that has been proven true, its not something up for debate....follow along buddy and try to keep up...2+2=4, water is comprised of 2 hydrogen molecules and 1 oxygen, computers are more powerful than 5 yrs ago....are you catching on yet?....yeah, uh huh theeeeeeere ya go, yep these are all facts, which is the exact OPPOSITE of your bold statement, because you are talking about conspiracy theories, and very, very silly theories at that....you think we haven't heard all that garbage before, listen kid for every ridiculous theory you think is true, I could give you a sensible explanation of what really happened, but guess what....I could be wrong, since I wasn't at the White House when this or that happened, but I DO know BS when I hear it, and you are definitely FULL of BS, case in point, you believe that American news media is censored....WOW, we were built on freedom of the press/speech, some would say too much freedom, but I would disagree, freedom is just like any other right-it can be ABUSED, I just believe that the media has changed over the last 15 yrs because of the 24hr. news networks which are more about ratings($$$) than delivering information and letting the viewer decide whats right or wrong. Also, I guess you just don't get it, it doesn't matter if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or not, actually thats just one reason behind the war, Saddam Hussein was a evil dictator, so its one less madman in power, boo-hoo, poor Saddam!, he also violated every resolution/treaty he agreed to/signed at the end of the Gulf War in 1991, this is just another example of many legitimate reasons that the U.S, had cause for war, but you only hear about the negative reasons why we were wrong. You think this is about Bush, but its not, he was elected by the "free will" of the people, its called Democracy, so I have to accept that whether I like it or not.....I have the right to say that I disagree with alot of the things he's done, but as an American I'm not going to degrade my country and act like we're the "bad guys." Whether you disagree with our methods or not, the men and wormen in Iraq are there to help people...theres nothing "bad" about that idea, no matter how much you hate Bush. I like most Americans wish it was over tommorrow, but I know from personal experience, WAR IS TOUGH, its not pretty, and nobody's trying to be a hero, but sometimes doing what you believe in can get you killed....hey if you happen to see a British soldier over there in Europe, tell him I said thanks for fighting the bad guys too, and most importantly for doing it in their own back yard so people like you don't get killed on the pubic streets.

Genki, thanks for your comments, its good to see that there are other level headed people out there who appreciate how good they have it.

Now I would like to apologize to those of you who just want to hear about videogames on this "news4gamers" site, but when people make irresponsible statements about important issues I feel its neccessary to respond.

[sjappie]

I base my accusations on true facts, how can you say I don't when I didn't even mention one of those facts. I would like to, but then I got to write 5 pages on this gaming-site. That's why I referred to "whatreallyhappened.com&q uot;, an internet-site wich only shows factual information, so you telling me what the definition of a fact is,is plain BS. You are just biased being an American marine. How do you think the rest of the world views this?

About censorship; one example, why isn't the press allowed to take pictures of dead marines'
cascets when they arrive back to America?

Actually it does matter if Irak had weapons of MD because prior to the war this was given as the reason to invade Irak. That's an undeniable fact. So no W of MD, no reason for war.
And off course Saddam was an evil dictator, and true you did good things for the Iraki people, but if you really believe that Bush went to all this trouble just to free the people of Irak, then your the most naive person ever. Then you should invade all countries where people are opressed. The 1991 gulf war was the same thing, not to save the Kuwaity people but to keep the oil flowing.

Then about democracy. Bush chosen democraticly,don't make me laugh. Al Gore won the elections and all of a sudden through a very shady process Bush won after the whole Florida sceme

Don't get me wrong I don't hate you ,the Americans or your culture, actually I love America. All I want to do is create some awareness in Americans that their government is ucking them over. You don't even have to believe what I said about 911 to see that things are just very wrong in your country, it just takes common sense and an objective view.

One more thing for you to do research on, Why did the World Trade Center building 11 collapse after the attacks, while it wasn't hit by a plane or debri? There are several videos showing it collapsing like an old building brought down by a controlled demolition. This is again an undeniable fact. Just one off the crazy facts shown at "whatreallyhappened.com&q uot; and many other sites on the internet. Just do the research to prove me wrong and maybe you'll find out I'm not all BS. If you want to further discuss the issue, her's my e-mail; [email protected]. Peace.

[FeralPhoenix]

lol....are you listening to yourself?;
"That's why I referred to "whatreallyhappened.com&a mp;a mp;a mp;q uot;, an internet-site wich only shows factual information..."
you are a CRITIC who gets his information from the "internet".....let me reiterate the "INTERNET", yeah there is alot of true, factual information on the internet, but the fact that you believe the site mentioned above "ONLY" gives "FACTUAL INFO."...well like I said that doesn't even past the LAUGH TEST, lol! BTW, you call me bias, but you are the one referring to propaganda conspiracy theory sites, that whole World Trade Center theory just makes me laugh, in other news it was reported "man DID NOT land on the moon", yeah theres a internet site that says that too....hey if you enjoy that type of stuff, theres many more sites where you can find "FACTUAL INFO." about the 911 attacks, and every other historical event that DID NOT happen....and yes I'm STILL laughing at YOU.
Now you think that our government is censoring us because the "PRESS" isn't allowed to take pictures of dead Marines caskets when they return to America.....WOW you truly are clueless....its not about censorship, its because so many PARENTS don't want pictures of their childs coffin used as propaganda pieces for anti-war media attention, besides the military does release 100% of the "NAMES" and "PHOTO's" of ALL servicemembers who are killed....thats censorship, huh?, so again your arguement doesn't past the laugh test.
Now you keep talking about WMD issue, and I've already explained that was just one reason -it was the most publicized reason and yes it appears it was inaccurate, but you fail to mention that U.S. *AND* British intelligence both REPORTED this to be true, prior to the war...along with many other creditable intelligence agencies around the world. Again you only point this out because you sit on your couch and watch BBC, and its the only thing mentioned as if it was the ONLY reason for the war......but thats 'cause you are a CRITIC, you only no what you WATCH on TV, you don't have any first hand knowledge and you definitely haven't been INVOLVED in any policies, plans, or organizations related to the war.....which is why I said you should just stick to "playing" videogames.....the war is waaaaaay over your head, don't worry hopefully what the U.S. and Britain are doing in Iraq, Afgan., and abroad will keep the vast majority of the bad guys occupied in over there instead of on our streets at home. I have no concern about Bush, so if you hate him fine....I could care less, but don't say ridiculous things like the U.S. is fighting a "evil" war, we are defending people while the other guys cut the heads off of anybody who disagree's with their views, so don't knock the troops who are in Iraq -TRYING TO HELP LESS FORTUNATE PEOPLE. "There are 2 types of people in this world, those who critisize and those who get things done.".....keep talking buddy, we already know which one you are. -Enough said.

[sjappie]

Where was Bush during the 911-attacks,at a grammar school listening to kids read books. So the news of the attacks comes in. Bush' assistent comes towards him and speaks 2 seconds to him. Bush doesn't react. He just sits there for like 20 mins. It wasn't a surprise. What is the first thing the Secret Service does when America is under attack. Bring the president to safety. Bush' visit to the school was announced days beforehand. Why didn't they bring Bush to safety immediately when the news of the attacks was known. They could have flown a plane into the school. They knew Bush wasn't in any danger because they knew all about the attacks. Maybe they didn't set it up, they knew it was gonna happen, they've let it happen. Don't you think it's kinda strange that in the biggest militairy power a plane can fly all over New York, diverting from course without being intercepted by jet fighters.

I never knocked the troops in Irak, I said twice before I respect you guys.

And about you protecting me from harm, that's BS, me and my country were never in any danger cause we don't interfere in everybodies business and think we have to rule the world. Any terrorist attack on America was a reaction to Americas foreign policy. A result of 50 years of trying to be the world leader. Biggest bully on the block. Hell if I was born Arab I would pick up arms to to defend my holy country against invaders trying to get rich of our own natural resources.

And I'm trying to "get things done". By opening my mouth and being critical, so maybe a few people open their eyes.

Since the beginning off the Irak war a hell off a lot more people died than in Saddams days, and still are today. The country is in chaos. Good job. What's freedom worth when people are killed by bombings every day?

And what's next? Your President already warming you up for the next war. Iran, North-Korea. Those countries only want nuclear weapons so that they have a deterrent against the United States, because they know the US will invade when they get the chance. America is causing all the hostility for most part. In order to have a chance at peace in the future America should back off a little.

I've already put a few hours in this whole discussion wich shows I'm not about BS, but that I actually care a lot about this matter. So I keep telling my views, you keep telling yours, maybe one day we can meet in the middle.

[FeralPhoenix]

WOW, your delusion is growing.....so Bush didn't become histerical and get up and run out of the building while the children and the media camera's watched, that very uneasy look on his face was just a cover-up because he knew all along, yep thats all the proof you need right there....case closed. Hey its seems like you want me to defend Bush, but I'm not defending him, its just you are making some really WILD accusations.....and I can see now that you don't even realize how ridiculous you sound.
I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt without questioning you motives, but your last post confirmed exactly what I suspected; you hate America because of your own petty jealousy
"A result of 50 years of trying to be the world leader. Biggest bully on the block. Hell if I was born Arab I would pick up arms to to defend my holy country against invaders trying to get rich of our own natural resources."
-uhm, that rhetoric is filled with jealousy, so just get over it bro, and yeah, the war has cost the American taxpayer over 300 billion dollars, give me 1 LINK, just one legitimate LINK that shows where the U.S. has made a profit off of Iraq, and BTW, no one's complaining about our genorocity of being the #1 world leader when it comes to giving aid to the rest of the world....nope you don't see that on BBC do you?
You said one thing thats true, more people are dying in Iraq now then before the war and Saddam, yes....so who are the ones chopping off heads and blowing up women and children?....so by your logic they are only doing this to defend their country...WOW!...you are delusional....they are killing Americans, Iraqi's, women, children and anybody else they can to stop Iraq from becoming a democracy because their Al Queda and other Radical terrorists fanatical extreme views won't survive otherwise.
BTW, further proof of how lost you are is now you backtrack and concede that "maybe they didn't set it up", so how did we provoke Osama bin Laden to plan and attack us before the war in Iraq, because in your flawed logic you already stated that they are fighting to defend their land from us greedy Americans.....so why did they attack us?...oh because we are the "Big Bad Bully on the Block"....yeah sure it couldn't have been for the reason Bin Laden himself said in the videotape, which is because simply put they don't accept or like "western culture", its "evil" in his words....and I guess this also means that your theory about there being no danger or harm to your country is correct, yep YOUR country doesn't fall under the "western culture" category, so you guys are perfectly safe, that terrorism plot that Britain stopped a few months ago, was all just a big misunderstanding too.
Now considering all the things we are dealing with in Iraq, you believe we just can't wait to attack North Korea, and Iran....yeah we were just hoping they would develop NUCLEAR WEAPONS, so we would have another EXCUSE to attack another country, I mean why not everythings just so peachy in Iraq, we're having tons of fun.....Bush is a genius, I don't know how he convinced both countries with "crazy paranoid dictators" to go along with his master plan, but its a brilliant. WOW....you must have done some digging on another "Factual internent site"...good job, bro!....I guess I can't call you a CRITIC now since you are providing this great public service of keeping all of us informed.....well thanks for NOTHING, you are worst than just any critic, no you have proven yourself to be a "Jealous Pathetic Critic", who actually blames the good guys instead of the bad guys....and even so, the bad guys still wouldn't hesitate to kill you. -YES, you do have the right to your views, and YES we can disagree about the strategy and planning of the war....but as far as views about which side I support -THERE IS NO MIDDLE!

[sjappie]

Jealous? About what exactly? I admit the things I said are pretty one sided. Off course the muslim extremists are pure evil. But you missing the bigger picture I try to paint here. Off course America as a country isn't making a profit on the war. The oil people like Bush are. The American weapons industries are. Companies like Haliburton are. These are the people that funded Bush from day one. One off Haliburtons bosses is D ick Cheney. D ick Cheney is part off the Bush administration, what's up with that.

Off course the things I say are pretty wild, to get your attention.You may have a explanation for everything I say, but you have to admit a lot of fishy things are going on and have happened that alleast deserve further investigation. And stop talking about me watching BBC an that internet site. My views have formed over many years hearing and seeing news and stories from many different sources. It's not like I made this up overnight just to piss you off.
I come up with the crazy big stuff so maybe you do some investigation and see the little parts don't ad up. But I guess you didn't go to that trouble. Dismissed every point I made as BS.

So here I go again. Please explain this; Why did the WTC building 7 (not building 11 like I said before, my mistake) collapse without being hit whatsoever. Please watch the movies off the event. Take a critical look and then you tell me what you think happened there. Be honest.

[FeralPhoenix]

because you still don't get it....and I guess some people will always believe what they WANT to believe despite all the overwhelming evidence that says otherwise.

Listen I wasn't a "eye witness", but I have seen countless videos of 2 planes hitting the 2 towers and that was on all the public news stations only minutes after it happened....so if thats not proof, that means that there was this huge conspiracy by the media and the government (the 2 don't mix) to fool the whole world and kill 3,000 Americans just for the hell of it. come on, listen to yourself!...oh but I guess you were an "eye-witness" and you saw the "government" plant the bombs. Since you continue to make wild claims and you are not man enough to apologize for your ridiculous statements about the America and the good troops all over the world, then I will continue to call it like I see it...you are a Jealous Pathetic Critic, and I have nothing further to discuss with you.