"Used games are a point of contention between gamers who want to save a little money and game developers who worry about losing new sales to used games. But it may all be moot, if an obscure case that's about to go before the Supreme Court goes copyright holders' way. Here's what's going on, and why you should care."
While on stage with Dina Bass at The Bloomberg Technology Summit the President of Xbox, Sarah Bond, was asked about the Xbox studio closures of Arkane Austin, Tango Gameworks, Alpha Dog, and Roundhouse Studios
Of course she did. She's part of the problem and will just tow the company line.
Bloomberg’s Dina Bass could barely read her scripted question without looking at her notes, whilst Sarah Bond who WAS expecting the question spoke without saying anything of substance or answering the question in any meaningful way. Clearly she’s had the same expert PR training as Phil, but this avoidance was disrespectful. In time the short-sighted decision to shut down Tango Gameworks will be seen as of the most notorious examples why Phil Spencer messed up his tenure in charge of Xbox. That’s a fully built out talented team that could’ve been put to work on any project.
Additionally, Phil Spencer should not be using Sarah Bond as a patsy for his mistakes- he should be answering that question.
I think you are all really overselling Tangos value. Hi-Fi rush was a lot of fun. Ghostwire was incredibly dull. Evil within 1 and 2 were just okay.
Evil within 2 was incredibly under rated. I thought that game was surprisingly good
Someone else said it best. I don't think it was a Phil decision. It was most likely a Satya decision. I think Microsoft is done giving out free money to Xbox.
people please boycott Activision Bethesda next release and support Hellblade.
these people mus understand that they cannot treat their fans and employees that way.
scumbags.
She's playing her role. There's absolutely nothing any of them can say other than the truth, this is about profit margins and not quality, so they just don't answer anything and wait for gamers to forget.
I always wondered why xbox had multiple leaders with similar titles like Phil Spencer, Matt Booty, and Sarah Bond, like, how many heads do you actually need?
Seems to me it would be more cost efficient to cut 2 of them instead of all those studios.
Frankly, I suspect she is the most competent of them. I don't mean that I like her more, I mean that she's the best at articulating herself and giving the talking points MS wants to give. The others are starting to sound more like her than her sounding like any of them.
Are any of these people "responsible" for what's happening? No. This reeks of Nadella. But that being said, I don't see any of the Xbox heads stepping down in protest.
"Don't shoot the messenger", sure, but at the same time, the messengers don't seem to take umbrage with the message. Not enough to remove themselves from it, anyway.
Dude, 100%, forgot Major Nelson and Aaron Greenberg, like what is the point for all these suits? They have more C-level executives than games released in a generation.
This is just so they can all pass along the hot potato one at a time and in between all of them can say a lot without actually saying anything, misinformation at its finest.
While many gaming layoffs are cruel, Tango Gameworks being culled after Hi-Fi Rush doesn't even make sense.
Good read. I think the point is important. Cuz the message it sends is, make a bad game? Well shut you down. Make a good game? We still might shut you down. How the fuck are you supposed to feel any sense of job security under those conditions. The level of core incompetence at play in the upper levels of this industry is staggering. This is common sense shit. You can’t chase trends on a 2 year cycle when games take fucking 6-8 years to make. Just let artists fucking art for gods sake. They don’t understand the basic principle that they’re all haggling for the same slice of fucking pie and the market will not bear it. Find a different fucking pie.
Might be a great game but it clearly did not make enough money to justify having the team make another game (under the MS umbrella).
It's never been just about whether your game is good or bad. The industry is full of great/underrated games that have a cult following or critical acclaim, but that fail to make great sales. Sad but true. It's a high stakes game, and at the end of the day, companies have to be profitable and make profitable investments. At the very least, there has to be the expectation of a long-term profit even if not profitable today. That goes for anything, no matter if the company is gigantic or a tiny mom-and-pop. We don't have to like it, but our buying habits played a hand in creating this monster.
I will keep harping that the industry has overreached its actual market and that it will implode. That implosion is already starting.
I partially agree with what you're saying in that companies need to sell well to make it in the industry. Something I've said again and again. Sony and Nintendo understand this about gaming by selling the game for as long as you can, then drop it on a service for additional revenue. It's why you won't see Sony and Nintendo expensively developed games on a service day one. It doesn't make business sense to do so.
The thing is about Tango is that they weren't given a chance after the acquisition when their game was shadow dropped on a console where gamers are told to not buy games but to rent them on a service for pennies. That kills day one sales even for small indie like developers who have big budgets for their company size.
Microsoft destroyed them in favor of pushing their services over investing in these developers futures or their games they created.
“…make a bad game? Well shut you down. Make a good game? We still might shut you down.”
I got chills. It shouldn’t have come to this.
"The sudden closure of several video-game studios at Microsoft Corp.’s Xbox division was the result of a widespread cost-cutting initiative that still isn’t finished.
This week, Xbox began offering voluntary severance agreements to producers, quality assurance testers and other staff at ZeniMax, which it purchased in 2020 for $7.5 billion, according to people familiar with the company’s plans. Others across the Xbox organization have been told that more cuts are on the way.
Speaking about the closures more broadly, Booty said that the company’s studios had been spread too thin — like “peanut butter on bread” — and that leaders across the division had felt understaffed. They decided to close these studios to free up resources elsewhere, he said.
Game Pass has not seen the massive growth that Xbox boss Phil Spencer may have been hoping for."
Sense it seems very few remember that human's were around before 2020 the next studio to close will be bethesda based no doubt on the history of.
Fallout 76
Elder scrolls online
elder scrolls blades mobile
fallout mobile
The vr versions of old games
Then you got starfield pissing out cash nothing to cover it.
I doubt tod's team or any sub team is making m$ cash they are no doubt on the chopping block for job cuts
If you can remember before 2020 even fallout 76 was made with over 4 studios.
pretty sure starfield coming to playstation 2024, nx gamer deep diving on the creation engine update in a recent blog, he seems to think, there is a lot of stuff developed to use on starfield for its Playstation release,
who will buy it though, ?? I think M$ has lost all good will now, after the Activision debacle, and now all these studios closing, people dont want to support them even if the game is half decent
Bethesda is the only studio to release anything noteworthy on Xbox. Take Bethesda out and they have nothing this Gen. Hifi Rush and Starfield are probably their two biggest hits.
They are counting on bethesda and activision on consoles and PC.
I really hope there would be a massive boycott movement against just the next release. I’m sure they will reconsider.
They see employees as trash, i will never give them a dime.
Someone said that cost $350 million to make Starfield. The use cost of making games has gotten crazy. With MS putting everything on GP it makes it harder to recoup costs. This is why I assumed that everything is coming to PC and PlayStation. I think they will have a whole slew of titles ready for the Switch 2 launch.
"Speaking about the closures more broadly, Booty said that the company’s studios had been spread too thin — like “peanut butter on bread” — and that leaders across the division had felt understaffed. They decided to close these studios to free up resources elsewhere, he said"
So what you're saying is...you bought all these studios and you guys can't run them.
Jesus.
Spread thin after firing over 2000 employees a few months prior. So basically they created the problem and their solution was to just fire more people. Absolute geniuses over at Xbox, of course can we even believe this to be the reason for the closures?
I was just thinking this, they just fired all those people and now stated they are spreading their staff thinly, this just reeks of incompetence.
Leaders can't run them hire more management create new roles don't shutter entire studios cause you can't figure out how to run them.
Unless the reality is this whole consolidation thing was really an excuse for IP harvesting
The crazy part is that if Xbox goes under, all these great studios will also go under. They've bought up all these studios and instead of letting the studio manage themselves, they fire 2000 across and now they're complaining that they're understaff. Sounds like xbox bit off more than chew. Just like all the promises that they've made but cant keep.
Well, what do you mean by "if Xbox goes under"? Because MS itself isn't going under. So if they decided Xbox was no longer worth it, it's not like they would just eat all those losses. Sure, for individual developers where there are substantial costs in terms of the people working at the studio and minimal money to be made selling related IP (i.e. Arkane Austin probably costs a lot in resources but MS couldn't have made much selling the studio because Redfall is worthless and they probably want to keep the Prey IP), they may just close them, but if they were getting out of gaming completely, they could sell the IP and related studios elsewhere. Like we may mock Bethesda Games Studios on here, but their biggest IP (Elder Scrolls and Fallout) are very valuable. Similarly, I know Halo has seen much better days, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think that IP is worth a lot.
Reports are suggesting that Game Pass will be getting a price hike soon and that Call of Duty may not be added to the day one offering. I honestly have a hard time believing this but it does beg the question why exactly did GP fail? I think the answer is that it just didn't get the growth that it anticipated. Jim was right but I wish he wasn't because at the end of the day, its gamers, devs and other front-line workers who have to absorb the blow for Spencer and team's miscalculations.
I think 2022 killed the Series X.
2021 was a good year for Xbox though and maybe the best in a long long time, hardware and software and as a publisher. Halo Infinite launched to popularity, Forza Horizon 5 blew everyone away, Psychonauts 2 was so well received, Flight Simulator on console, Deathloop even on PS5 & PC.
But they followed that up with next to nothing. Then 2023 with Redfall, a disappointing Forza, Starfield, and 2024 leads with closures and layoffs. And some tweets reminding us Hellblade is days away.
The only disappointment with the PS5 is not enough Sony games. Xbox followed up no games with disappointing ones.
PlayStations history has been built around third and second party publishing. The vast majority of games that people recognize as PlayStation games were made like this.
Insomniac only because a PlayStation Owned studio a few years ago in response to Microsoft buying up studios, every game they made prior to that for PlayStation was as a third party making a games published by Sony.
PlayStation has had an incredible year using that business model.
We got Granblue Fantasy: Relink, Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, Helldiver 2, Rise of the Ronin, Stellar Blade, and Silent Hill is right around the corner.
I think Xbox S. Brand was already dying for some time. Your 2022 point is interesting but also remember that is a year after the lock down which hD created false demand.
"I honestly have a hard time believing this but it does beg the question why exactly did GP fail? I think the answer is that it just didn't get the growth that it anticipated."
What?!?
Game Pass failed because from day one it was maintained by subsidization. Game Pass was never profitable, I mean, sure you can say that was because it didn't get the growth they predicted, but their predictions of it having "billions" of subscribers were completely ridiculous, to the point where saying that it didn't have fast enough growth is as completely out of touch with reality as their predictions.
To clarify, what I am saying is that there is a scenario where GP would have worked and thats where they had a lot more subscribers. You see MS isn't dumb and they charted out how many subs they would need to make the system work. That's why Spencer testified that they would need 80 million subs by 2027 (which is crazy now in retrospect). Now we also understand why Satya Nadella's bonus a few years back was based on that unrealistically high Growth in GP subs. From the beginning they knew that the only way to make it work was with a large base of subs. This is because as you said simply subsidizing won't work forever.
"To clarify, what I am saying is that there is a scenario where GP would have worked and thats where they had a lot more subscribers."
Yea... but again they expected/wanted an obviously unobtainable number of subscribers. Do you think that taking the risk was a good idea if it was based on getting billions (even 80m) of users?
"You see MS isn't dumb"
Are you sure? Have you been reading the news?
"That's why Spencer testified that they would need 80 million subs by 2027"
This was a refined estimate for the courts, and probably more truthful maybe... but go back and look at the first few years of game pass Microsoft actually said they were going to reach billions of people. Yes that was marketing, but still what they presented to the public to sell the idea.
I actually don't want to argue with you, normally I find your comments agreeable, but this one just came off a little off base to me.
"Game Pass failed because from day one it was maintained by subsidization"
I do agree with Eonjay here - *if* Microsoft got the subs they want, Game Pass could have worked. Microsoft assumed people would buy into a subscription service like they already do for TV and Movies and Music.
But that didn't work out, at all, with the catastrophic consequences that we're seeing today.
"Microsoft actually said they were going to reach billions of people"
Reach != Subscriber count. That's your own conflation. Reaching just means "being available in" and usable in, billions of people with the awareness and ability to access the service. There exists no quote saying they estimate "billions" of subscribers.
No worries. I consider it more of a conversation than an argument. I learn alot from people who don't agree with me. Bring it on lol!
And yeah I forgot about the whole 'reach billions' PR from MS. I think theybare a victim of their own BS. I think at these companies you do have people push back on pipe dreams from the management.
I mean clearly it wasn't a good idea lol.
Maybe they need to put less games on there or just simply charge more from the beginning, I think they guttered their bottom line, they didn't make as much as they could have from selling games.
GP fail because these studios poured in $100 of millions to makes these games only for it to given out free in GP. Even if Microsoft pay them to put in on GP, they are not making some of the profits they can potentially make. Especially not for AAA games. For studios making lower quality games, this may work but not for AAA. Look at Sony, their AAA games are award winners. Look at god of war ragnarok, they sold 5 million copies to date and needed to sell 3 million copies to break even. Thats a tough market to be in when your AAA game is not guarantee to break even let alone trying to make a sizeable profit.
For all the armchair executives who were calling for Sony to release its big-budget AAA games on PS+, the same exact thing would have happened at PlayStation. Game Pass has killed Xbox. Congrats.
There's not many of of us clamoring for Sony to do this because most of us understand it would kill Playstation. I'm sure there's a few but I've not seen alot of it myself.
"the same exact thing would have happened at PlayStation"
But the same thing *has* been happening at PS. They've closed, what, 3 or 4 studios so far this gen? Laid off plenty of staff, restructured studios, etc.
PlayStation isn’t struggling. Xbox is. That’s the difference.
Sony also didn’t buy out multiple publishers with LOTS of studios and leave them in a state of uncertainty.
So, he’s absolutely right that Sony not following Game Pass in its entirety was smart as this very thing could have happened. Name a team, like Tango, who wasn’t struggling (like Tango) that Sony closed. Every closure was because of a studio who wasn’t pulling their weight.
You’re right about that. People on here will turn a blind eye and downvote because it’s Sony. Jim Ryan flew to the London studio and spent the day with them. The very next day they were all fired.
Calling out MS and not Sony. No matter how the studios came to be. Won’t make a damn difference to those who lost their jobs. In the end it’s all the same.
This is why I have always advocated that Sony should not follow Microsoft's footsteps and adopt their model, Xbox couldn't afford to do it, Playstation certainly can't either.
I suppose if SCOTUS bans the sale of used video games, they'll have to do the same with used movies, music CDs, books, cars, and Magic: the Gathering cards too.
Shoot might as well ban goodwill and salvation army.
so how have i been buying, and selling japanese games all these years? that just contradicts the whole "buy and sell within the united states" notion because they said if games were made outside of the united states, then we could not buy or sell
or...just saying....we download all of our games from home with massive hard drive space and not having to pay again if we delete it....no...just a thought
i would quit gaming.