How Turn 10 sabotaged Forza 3 by running its mouth

Maddens Raiders - 72 days 12 hours ago

and beautifully written blog piece. Bravo.

"As a developer, you need to have a certain kind of reverence and respect for your competitors, even if they consistently outsell and outperform you. If anything, this should serve as inspiration to make your next project a labor of love that people can put up with the other guys side-to-side and say something along the lines of: “Wow, they really outdid themselves this time."

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Snoogins - 72 days 12 hours ago

This is the unfortunate difference between the typical American and Japanese businessman. Companies such as Microsoft and Turn 10 have been known to speak big and verbally slam the competiton whereas Japanese companies tend to celebrate the successes they make and commend and respect the competition. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule.

Throughout the period of development of Forza 3 and GT5, we've seen members of the Forza dev team speaking big about their product, calling Forza 3 the definitive racing game of this and any generation and that competiive franchises like GT are "stagnant." Yamauchi has been very mum on his franchise until recently and feels grateful for the competition. The existence of Forza has been very beneficial to pushing racing franchises like GT even further. Soon Forza 3 will release and Xboxers will have a great racer to enjoy, but once GT5 releases, Turn 10 will be eating crow. The game won't need anyone speaking big for it, it will speak for itself.

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jcgamer - 72 days 11 hours ago

not to mention that MS employee caught trolling GT5 on NeoGaf...

good luck guys...

lol :)

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cRaZyLeGs 93 - 72 days 11 hours ago

I don't think anyone listened to their comments and took them seriously. I was quite disappointed about their attitude towards their rivals, they aren't acting 'professional'. They won't win over the GT fans with the comments they have made.

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DSI - 72 days 11 hours ago

You were doing so well and then in the end you went fanboy. That's too bad. I agree Japanese developers do maintain a sense of respect for their competition. And in the west, they do also, they just talk more in the west as they also do in europe. But, this is a cultural difference, therefore you can't really use it as a comparison. Gamers in the west like shooters while gamers in Japan like RPG, neither should be put down because of what they do as a culture.

The concept and or thought of GT5 coming out is well overdue and I personally thought the game should have release over a year ago, seeing the release of GTHD then GTP(40.00) now they are saying 2010. So obviously if forza has done nothing else, is keeps making GT5 go back to the drawing board. I tell you what, if GT5 is not simply spectacular, if will be a fail in my book due the all the false starts and delays.

If Turn-10 wants to brag about their product, why should they be allowed to do so without being ridiculed by the likes of a bunch of fanboys. You guys brag and talk smack all the time but your talking smack should be accepted. Sound like a double standard to me.

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The Lazy One - 72 days 11 hours ago

When he says years ahead of everything on the market, he means ON THE MARKET. Not will be on the market in a half a year.

Forza 3 as a simulator is quite advanced largely in part because most simulators just aren't popular in the main stream and don't justify a budget anywhere near forza's (same with GT, but, again, it's not on the market yet).

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Death - 72 days 11 hours ago

Other than being a touch of a bigot, you do know Kojima-San took a couple swipes at the Xbox in Metal Gear don't you? Last I seen he was a Japanese developer. You are also forgetting the heavy barrage of BS Kutaragi-San was slinging prior to and after the Xbox 360 launch. While I appreciate your broad generalization of a couple nations of people, I have to also admit they aren't quite accurate.

-Death

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jib - 72 days 11 hours ago

T10 sabotaged forza3 how exactly? they're still going to sell millions regardless

whether they said what they've said or not doesn't change what the game is

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Karum - 72 days 11 hours ago

So tell me, what was the original release date for GT5 that ended up getting delayed?

It's ok, I know you don't have an actual answer because the game has never actually been delayed but I'd definitely like to hear your attempt at an answer.

Honestly all these retarded journalists writing about how GT5 is now delayed until 2010 and users posting the same crap has started to become annoying.

@Death & others - Snoogins did acknowledge that there were exceptions to the rule, he didn't say ALL Japanese developers/businessmen don't do anything disrespectful.

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Arnon - 72 days 11 hours ago

Why do so many care? The only people who are actually complaining are people who will most likely not buy the game, or even take a second glance at it.

In fact, I'm about 90% sure that when the game comes out, sells decently, and receives some good scores, that the majority of the people on here will find some way to tell and convince everyone that the game is bad.

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Cenobia - 72 days 11 hours ago

GT5 never had a release date, so it was never delayed. The fact that you think GT5 should have been released last year is insignificant. It wasn't done then and it isn't done now. I assume they'll release it when they're done making it, but maybe that's just speculation on my part.

@Death

Kojima didn't take any swipes at the xbox in MGS4. What are you referring to? The disc space was a PS1 joke, and the PS3 controller was product placement.

If you want an example of an Asian developer douche bag, Itagaki is just waiting to be singled out.

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DeepInterludium - 72 days 11 hours ago

It has nothing to do with differences in culture.

You saw recently how Infinity Ward was talking about how people needed to buy Uncharted 2. They didn't have to run their mouth of because they're secure with their own game.

Turn 10 just seems like a jealous studio who knows that they can't match the competition so they have to lie, deceive, and scream at the top of their lungs like a child whining for attention.

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DSI - 72 days 10 hours ago

You are right, so let's just say to this point GT5 is simply vaporware. GTHD is GT5 in an earlier stage, GTP is a paid demo of GT5 in a more advanced stage than GTHD. And had Forza not come out GT5 would probably already be out, but as I said earlier Forza keep making GT go back to the drawing board. (i.e damage)

Say what you will, but GT5 was been in development way too long.

Hell this game has been in development since 2004 and it's almost 2010 now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Any day now I guess.

"Itagaki is just waiting to be singled out" is this because he rebelled against the darkside?

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Snoogins - 72 days 10 hours ago

So now I'm a fanboy and a bigot?

@DSi - I kept my statement objective and based on the information present. Turn 10 claims to have the definitive racer and makes their opinion quite obvious. However, with the slew of recently released information on GT5 to have come from TGS, it is clear GT5 will be a beast. I even gave Forza the respect it deserves, which is more than Turn 10 does for Gran Turismo. If anything, you are a fanboy for even considering I am and when GT5 releases, it will prove itself.

@Death - I said that there are exceptions to the rule, but Turn 10 has dug itself into the stereotypical loud American who boasts and takes cheap shots at the competition. Yamauchi has expressed his respect for his competition. As proof of an exception to the rule, Tomonobu Itigaki is arrogant and makes rude comments toward Hideki Kamiya and the creator of Tekken, both rivals of Itigaki's NG and the DOA franchises. Kojima's jokes in MGS4 were targetting TECHNOLOGY (DVD-9), not Microsoft itself.

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cmrbe - 72 days 10 hours ago

The difference is those guys are professional devs and we are just fans on a social gaming site.

As for GT5 delayed because of Froza. Don't be stupid. PD released the demo at gamescom to see the reaction of gamers and journalist. Most weren't impressed and wanted a better damage modeling system hence why they pushed it back. It has nothing to do with Forza. PD never look over their shoulders like Turn 10 does.

PD only cares about perfection. How long it take is irrevelant. The only thing PS fans know is that once GT5 releases its the best racing game ever bar none. Thats what i want.

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Snoogins - 72 days 10 hours ago

Do any of you understand the phrase "EXCEPTION TO THE RULE"??? NOT ALL American developers are arrogant douche bags just as not all Japanese are humble. Infinity Ward and Bungie are good examples of exceptions to the rule, just as Itigaki is a raving fanboy who slams his competition. However, there is a culural difference that is undisputeable between the two.

As DSi brought up, there is no reason a developer shouldn't be proud of the hard work they put into their product, however, confidence is not an excuse to harshly criticize the competition. Forza wouldn't be where it is today without having Gran Turismo to aspire to dominate. Gran Turismo wouldn't be polishing GT5 as amazingly as they are without the accomplishment that is Forza 3. Yamauchi recognizes this and expresses his gratitude and acknowledgement that it is good for the industry. However, Turn 10 is too busy bragging and slamming the competition, saying it is "stagnant" and a thing of the past.

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andron666 - 72 days 9 hours ago

Turn 10 is a victim of being a MS showpiece for the 360. MS needs to market Forza 3 aggressively and make much hype before it releases.

I'm sure Forza 3 will be a great racing sim, but the constant marketing PR from Turn 10 is a bit off putting some.

They also directly invited comparisons to GT with many of their own claims. I'm sure MS loves the controversies this creates among fanboys, they love hype negative or positive doesn't really matter...

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Cenobia - 72 days 6 hours ago

I don't think that GT5 "went back to the drawing board" because of Forza. The damage was more of a feature that fans wanted, and Forza wasn't the first game with car damage.

I can appreciate the competition. Other games have had damage and inside the car view (which I love), contributing to GT5 getting those features, but I think you're giving too much credit to Forza alone. I think it deserves some, but to insinuate that GT5 is scared of Forza, or that it is waiting for Forza to be released is a bit crazy.

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BattleAxe - 71 days 22 hours ago

I think we have a new HAZE in the making....

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iKillSwitch - 71 days 4 hours ago

I just cant get enough of this Forza and Turn10 stories. LOL. I just laugh when I read a title with either 1. Grow some BAlls Turn10.

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KenAdamsNSA - 72 days 12 hours ago

Very well said. The game feels rushed from the demo, and although I understand the desire to usurp GT5 from the throne, Turn 10 fails to understand that on a side-by-side checklist, Polyphony has them beat in nearly every single regard.

Cars? GT5.
Graphics? GT5 (THIS IS NOT DEBATABLE, PEOPLE).
In-car view? GT5.

The list goes on, and on, and on. Forza 3 is not a bad game, but it is suffering at the hands of its creators.

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meepmoopmeep - 72 days 12 hours ago

that could be the reason, who knows

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FordGTGuy - 72 days 11 hours ago

Physics? Forza
Customization? Forza
Online? Forza

@DonCorneo

STHU you most likely have not even touched the demo with comments like that.

I still don't understand most PS3 fanboys obsession with graphics make a game. Graphics keep your attention for maybe a week solid gameplay holds it for months and years.

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ultimolu - 72 days 11 hours ago

Well said. That's what I think happened.

But then again, this still doesn't excuse them for being assholes in the first place.

And Thom, this is N4G. There's never a legitimate discussion around here! People slam disagrees for things they can't argue! :o

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dreamcast - 72 days 11 hours ago

"Physics? Forza"

Have you played the demo? I don't see why anyone would brag about the Forza 3 physics.

"Customization? Forza
Online? Forza"

Forza 2 had customization and online but still wasn't considered the "definitive" racer of this gen... I don't see how Forza 3 will be any different.

People who only own a 360 will get a lot out of Forza 3. People who only own a PS3 will also get a lot out of GT5. I doubt a lot of the people bickering here have both consoles. I'd like to get both because of Forza's livery editor, but I'll most likely wait for GT5 since there are too many games coming out this fall as it is.

@below: I've played the Forza demo and GT5P, and I don't see how Forza trumps GT physics in any way. If you would could actually explain to me how they're better instead of just telling me they are, I might be inclined to believe you.

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FordGTGuy - 72 days 11 hours ago

Forza 3's physics are much improved over Forza 2 and feel very realistic as shown from the demo(although I don't expect people who have never driven a car to know what it feels like). Forza 3's engine eats up alot of the Xbox 360's power and balancing the physics and graphics while keeping 60 fps is what causes the 8 cars on track and the lower detailed car models.

Forza Motorsport 2 managed to survive through many exclusive and multiplaform racing games and is still popular to this day.

It amazes me how everyone lacks the sight to see that every game has its flaws and advantages. Forza just so happens to have a better physics engine and online features while GT5 has more cars and better graphics. They will both be great games and I will be buying both so shut the hell up and stop being a fanboy loser.

@Tinted Eyes

Gran Turismo has never focused on physics while Forza has always been about and makes physics their top priority. If Gran Turismo was running a taxing or great physics engine they wouldn't have had to go through multiple engines already like previously stated. Gran Turismo can make a 1080p 60fps racer with more cars on track and better graphics because they aren't running a heavily taxing physics engine.

@Karum

This is Polyphonys first online Gran Turismo I think they will do a good job but this is Forza's 3rd game with online and have had time to experiment and add onto the experience I think Gran Turismo will have a good online system but I doubt we will see anything like the mass game mode modifier with ability to make specific teams and create specific game modes or a storefront.

I like how i'm getting disagrees when I said GT5 will straight up be a great game.

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The Lazy One - 72 days 11 hours ago

they did most of their interviews after GT5 was confirmed for 2010. Why would they panic about a 2009 release date if they already knew it wasn't a 2002 release?

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Tinted Eyes - 72 days 11 hours ago

No one knows if it has the better physics engine, because Gt hasn't come out yet is not finished.

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Da One - 72 days 11 hours ago

they should have just been humble about it and let the game speak for it's self, granted Forza 3 is gonna be great i feel like after Turn 10 running off out the mouth it won't live up to what they promised..... which is a shame i always love to see people live up to the hype they produce

Edit:

Also you can please everybody, Forza 3 seems like a great game, you should let your own opinion do the judging if the games looks like how you thought it should then that's all that matters

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Karum - 72 days 11 hours ago

Sorry mate but you can't sit there and claim physics and online whenever you've not actually had any hands on with both games to make that judgement call.

Customisation you might get although we're still not 100% sure what customisation will exist in GT5 but F3 will probably take that award from what I've seen and heard.

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cmrbe - 72 days 11 hours ago

Very insecure like how they are matching PS3 price drop per price drop.

Its shows how little confidence they have in their product and how insecure they are of PD that they had to resort to belittling the comp.

They are only digging their grave by pitting it against GT let alone every other racing game in existence. Really dumb move because now everyone will compare Froza to every other racing games best aspects.

This is a lesson for Turn 10. If you are going to be super arrogant and say your racing game is the best racing game ever "Definitive". Makes sure it at least has the best graphics that can beat a two year old GT demo and have better damage modeling than Grid. To claim definitive means absolute. Froza is far far from absolute.

Perhaps you are right but i still think it would have been better for them to just push these amazing features they are claiming instead of saying its the greatest ever. Let people see this for themselves if they are that confident. They had a choice in this regard.

I don't agree though this is the only way for them to sell more copies. I think this whole fiasco will only hurt Froza sales because the expectations they have set is so high that no matter how good a game they produce is it will not meet fans expectations. We have already seen alot of fans say this on their fourm. Froza fans and the media expected definitive. All they have seen from the demo is a game that looks worse than GT5P and average damage that Grid beats easily. Not very definitive.

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Greywulf - 72 days 10 hours ago

Forza is fun for what it is. Its not better than GT in many ways. F3 isn't anymore definitive than F2 was. So Forza1 has been defnitive. forza 2 is more definitive, and F3 is the definitivest?

I love how you just say "online!" GT5p is online, as are many racing games. Plus you race friends for free. It has cool online options, but not enough to separate it from F2.

F3 is a 2.5 rush job, with the same magic carpet physics as the previous games with unrealistic accidents and crashes that Turn10 highlights themselves as realistic.

as a real car enthusiast...

I want car porn from my Game, GT delivers that in detail that Turn10 can only lie about. I also want the game to feel real when I accelerate/brake/handle. I also want to sit back and enjoy some more carporn when im done in the replays, zooming in on all the details. I want to see how fast I am compared to others.

GT Delivers on all those fronts, plus gives everyone a chance to use their own vehicle in the game and customize it.

I could care less about painting a livery, its cool. But it has nothing to do with car enthusiasm. People aren't off to paint their names on the side of their car, they are after paint jobs\colors that mean something.

Even with lower detailed car models, Turn10 still cant get more than 8 cars on a road. lol.. intense battles i bet.

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pippoppow - 72 days 10 hours ago

I believe MS to be obsessed with whatever Sony does. I'm sure MS was afraid GT5 might drop this winter so they pressured Turn 10 to release. I do not think that it is a coincidence that MS usually has a title to rival a PS3 release. It may be the reason why the few MS exclusives are so short and lack depth. MS just wants to counter what Sony does even if it is at the expense of quality.

Turn 10 is getting what they deserve just like how MS gets what they deserve with negative press regarding hardware build quality.. Maybe this will be a lesson to other Devs. Leave the naive boisterous arrogance at the door.

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callahan09 - 72 days 10 hours ago

"Physics? Forza
Customization? Forza
Online? Forza"

About physics, I see no reason to believe Forza will be better. I was just playing around with the Forza 3 demo for the thousandth time (it's so much fun!), and the physics are all over the place. Especially with the roll-over. Also, the cars definitely don't skid out when you take a turn too fast like they would in real life, and like they do in GT5. GT5 is just the harder game, and that's because the physics are more realistically simulated. In Forza, the physics are a lot more forgiving. And you can bounce off the walls just as easily in one as you can in the other, for those who like to call GT bumper cars. Both games are unrealistic in that department.

About customization, we won't know until we know more about GT5. We know you can customize your cars internal AND external components. We just don't know to what extent there will be livery editing features.

About online, well, Forza is only for 8 players, GT5 is for 16. GT5 also has public lobbies, private rooms, share photos & replays (including youtube upload), voice chat, what have you. Not sure what you think Forza has that GT5 won't have, except for perhaps an online auction house. But that's one feature for Forza. GT5 has some features not available in Forza, too. Plus we don't know the final feature set of GT5 yet. So declaring any of these categories a win for Forza 3 right now just doesn't make sense. There's simply no evidence to support it.

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Arnon - 72 days 5 hours ago

"Also, the cars definitely don't skid out when you take a turn too fast like they would in real life, and like they do in GT5."

Yes, they most certainly do. I haven't played a good racing sim in a while, and it showed. My car was spinning out like no other because I was making too sharp of turns.

"Plus we don't know the final feature set of GT5 yet."

They had like two articles of GT5's features, bud.

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callahan09 - 71 days 9 hours ago

Yeah, but the game is still 6 months out and those features are clearly not final. Those lists don't even mention NASCAR or WRC, but those features are clearly somewhere in the game as evidenced by the trailer. So we can't take those lists as "complete."

About the spinning out / skidding thing, well, I play a lot of racing games, so ... I don't really know. Forza is just easier, and more forgiving. I was using the gas pretty liberally and the brakes pretty conservatively and still couldn't skid out. But in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, I was skidding out more realistically and thus more frequently when I applied gas/brakes at the same relative frequencies.

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Arnon - 71 days 5 hours ago

There's a few different modes you can miss however, in the demo. I played it through the first time and thought it was easy. I changed some stuff around, and found it to be a bit more difficult. I'm also sure that the features you see that allow you to change the way the next race is played will be enhanced in the final version.

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iistuii - 72 days 11 hours ago

What are you on. On the decline ? did you see the sales of the latest Halo. Can you imagine the sales of Forza 3. My god your so blinkered.

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DJ Pillz 317 - 72 days 11 hours ago

360 is sure on the decline with games next year like
Halo Reach
Crackdown 2
Fable III
Alan Wake
Splinter Cell Conviction
Mass Effect 2
Project Natal

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dreamcast - 72 days 11 hours ago

Yeah, I'm sure MS is trembling in their boots. Halo ODST only sold like 2 million it's first day.

@dDJ Pillz 317
Natal isn't a game, it's a joke.

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Erotic Sheep - 72 days 11 hours ago

With all the respect but dont expect Halo sales with Forza..

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DJ Pillz 317 - 72 days 11 hours ago

Forza 2 sold millions, why wouldn't Forza 3 with an even bigger install base?

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PirateThom - 72 days 10 hours ago

Forza 2 sold 2.6m and was bundled with every single 360 in Europe for about 6 months.

Forza 3 will do 3m tops.

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Erotic Sheep - 72 days 10 hours ago

Install base doesn't mean much pillz, despite the 360 having a bigger install base than the PS3, GT5:P still sold more than Forza 2 ..

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cheapndirty - 72 days 3 hours ago

Do you guys really think you know if MS is really in a decline because of this? Where is your proof? Detailed proof? Not some blog or your vague understanding of forecasting these things.

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suunyd - 72 days 12 hours ago

Meh, you know what's going to happen. The media will give it an easy pass in reviews, because it's a 360 exclusive, which will cause Turn 10 to talk even more sh!t. Then, fans will be disappointed.

GT5 will be criticized because of things it doesn't have rather than what it does deliver. No p0rn on mah car! -5 points. Pshh.

It's been confirmed that tire deformation will be in GT5, so anybody who was bragging about it in Forza 3 can shut up now.

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ultimolu - 72 days 11 hours ago

Keep crying fangirl.

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rawd - 72 days 11 hours ago

Jealous much

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ipwnall - 72 days 11 hours ago

ICE CREAM TRUCK (pink)
ICE CREAM TRUCK 1
ICE CREAM TRUCK 2
ICE CREAM TRUCK 3
ICE CREAM TRUCK 4
ICE CREAM TRUCK 5
ICE CREAM TRUCK 7
ICE CREAM TRUCK 6
ICE CREAM TRUCK 8
ICE CREAM TRUCK 9
ICE CREAM TRUCK 10

RAPIST VAN 1
RAPIST VAN 2
RAPIST VAN 3
RAPIST VAN 4
RAPIST VAN 5
RAPIST VAN 6
RAPIST VAN 7

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Ron_Burgundy - 72 days 11 hours ago

the Rapist Van must Natal enabled for the pedos

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ipwnall - 72 days 11 hours ago

Lol, probably.

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rawd - 72 days 10 hours ago

Don't forget the F4ggio
meep meep

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Pope_John_Paul_II - 72 days 9 hours ago

you know whats funny about that list, all these cars drive and Behave differently. Every Car on that list has a Unique Ability..

DO you actually believe you are driving the same car idiot?

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Tinted Eyes - 72 days 11 hours ago

GT brings out the Fear in Xbox fanboys

Funny to watch.

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ultimolu - 72 days 11 hours ago

Cry for me, cry!

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ultimolu - 72 days 11 hours ago

You're lame. xD

Seriously, why do you need to skip a line every time you make a comment?

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Tinted Eyes - 72 days 10 hours ago

And that ladies and gentleman, Is the maturity of an xbox fanboy. :)

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Obama - 72 days 9 hours ago

When all else fails, use the your mom argument.

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