360 Developer: Hitting Graphical Limit But Can Do Alot More On A.I & Animation

Major Nelson recently interviewed Mark Terrano, a video game programmer and Design Director for Hidden Path Entertainment on the progress of the industry from a technological point view, and specifically his evaluation of the current generations technical achievements and limitations for the Xbox 360 XBLA games.

Listen from the 43rd minute on the podcast.

[Fishy Fingers]

Not really what you want to hear.

Especially in this day and age when visuals are the first and main talking point of any "next-gen" game.

[green]

Did you guys listen to the podcast?
Do you know that this is an Xbox Live Arcade game that he is talking about?

Those that disagree please can you state the name of the game that he is developing for the 360?

[juuken]

Sausage King has a point. MS is not a hardware company. They are a software company, which is why Live is better than PSN at the moment. But when it comes to hardware, they are unreliable and it's a complete waste of the consumer's money.

Like I've been saying all along-You cannot play games/function if the console doesn't work.

[Superfragilistic]

The recent title was Wits & Wagers and the next is Defence Grid: The Awakening. You're right people should listen to the podcast because the title deliberately misleads.

The whole conversation is in the context of graphical, AI and animation limits for 150MB Arcade games on XBLA!

[marichuu]

@juuken
I can't play broken games either... I've had more problems with broken games than problems with the console.

[juuken]

That's true as well, however the hardware still counts the most. I would rather have a broken game, where I could probably take it back and get it exchanged than to have a headache over a console that refuses to work.

[MediaStream]

You don't really need a 360 developer to tell you this.

Just look at the 360 release list. Where are these amazing games?

Gears of War 2 landed with a bit of a thud after being overhyped and turned out to be just a slightly upgraded Gears of War

Alan Wake is primarily a PC game and is looking very dated now.

Sure there are 360 games that are going to look good or even be described as amazing. But the same can be said for the Wii.

Banjo Kazooie, Ninja Gaiden 2, and Fable 2 all look nice but certainly aren't graphical showpieces that one would expect in a console's third year.

[marichuu]

@1.8
As I said.. for over 2 years, I haven't had ANY problems with my 360, but I've had problems with games being lame (bad controls, camera controls, AI being lame etc.). I know where you're going with this... there are a lot of people who experience a breaking 360, but in my case (and probably others) it works without anything to complain about when it comes to hardware.

This article doesn't chock me or anything... I'm the type of gamer who doesn't need realistic graphics to have fun with a game. Look at Disgaea for the PS2/PSP, and look at Disgaea 3 for the PS3... barely any difference in graphics, but the game is f***ing addictive and more fun than any other game I've played recently... hell, my GTA IV is just collecting dust while I have fun playing Disgaea on the PSP.

Oh.. and no, I don't own a Wii.

[dan-boy]

and i suppose ps3 games are in the 5th dimension?

a purposely mis-leadingly titled thread for all the people who've not even heard was said to throw their uninformed opinions at...lol

you've just gotta love n4g.com

[MediaStream]

@dan-boy

Feel free to let everyone know what these incredible graphical titles are supposedly coming out for the 360.

A slightly upgraded UE3 Gears of War 2 sure as hell isn't impressing anyone.

[Montrealien]

Gears of War 2 is impressing me, so is Killzone 2 and MGS4, who the **ck am I? And who are you to say it is not impressive, that is only your opinion. G

gameplay over graphics is and always will be the number one rule of video-gaming, if we lose that mentality the whole industry will go to s***.

And to Juuken,

Software » Hardware

This fact, is as old as digital time.

[Monchichi025]

That title is very misleading because his comment was taken WAY out of context. He isn't talking about the 360 but the whole industry in general.

[marinelife9]

Peter Molyneux just stated that the 360 architecture caused him to have to compromise elements of Fable 2.

Microsoft needs to tell their developers to keep quiet and not talk about hardware at all. I'm surprised Major Nelson didn't edit his podcast.

[power of Green]

I wonder what this XBL Arcade game will offer.

Yet another agenda based twisting of news posts.

Whats with the missleading header?. I'm going to report bad editing.

[JBaby343]

However I agree with him on certain points. I don't think Gears 2 looks much better than the first but games on all consoles can use better AI. Uncharted was the first game that made me actually think to get through some parts but even then things can get predictable after a while.

AI is definitely where games have significant ground to cover although I think they are improving.

[Tmac]

I'm sorry, to all you saying he is referring to XBL Arcade games, he isn't he clearly denotes that he's specifically talking about the Xbox 360, he doesn't even mention Arcade games. Don't make assumptions and spin the facts, it is what it is and it's a developer telling us straight up the Xbox 360 has hit the wall.

[power of Green]

LOl there's over 100 people flaming eachother talking about sh*t they're clueless about just from the header alone no one listend to the cast" not that its going to matter to the PS3 fans that will continue to fight based on the missleading header on purpose.

1.6... Thanks *Wits & Wagers* has great graphics photo-real in some places but this seems arrogant of the devs when that game uses copy and paste styles in that game but obvously they're talking about memory.

[marinelife9]

The title isn't misleading at all. On this particular topic they aren't talking about XBL games they're talking about the 360 itself.

What XBL game can tout near photo realistic graphics? Which XBL game can rival the capabilities of a Hollywood movie?

[Monchichi025]

It's obvious that you didn't listen to the Podcast. Either that or your a blind Sony lemming. He's talking about graphics in general. As in the whole industry and where we can take it from here.

READ:
I think realism is losing some of the luster - I would love to see some work done on what we call "non-photo realistic rendering", paint-related techniques, we do things you can do in movies but I'm more interested in what you can't do in movies...

[potenquatro]

360 is going for 3 countem 3 years. ofcourse its going to reach a limit. what the hell is everybodys problem. i'm willing to bet ALOT of the ps3 retards here had ps2. what happened when gamecube and xbox came out? did the ps2 become irelevent? no. they kept making games for it.great games for it. how is this news related to the 360 falling short. did anybody in here actually read? they are talking about XBOX LIVE ARCADE games.
@fishy fingers: THIS gen stopped being NEXT-GEN along time ago. there are games out there and being made for far more powerful machines(new vidoe cards) that can never be made or ported the way it was intended for either ps3 or 360. grafics has always been a main talking point on any gen. these machines were meant to produce grafics.

[Lifendz]

That happens when you've seen a system's best shot and you can start to identify that system's games. Not saying it's bad; far from it. Devs were able to exploit the 360 from day one. Now they've maxed.

I said nothing about the PS3 so don't flame me. I'm no dev so until a dev says they've tapped the full potential of the cell (laughs a bit) I will reserve my statements.

[potenquatro]

i don't see a certain look to xbox games.i do see a certain look for games this gen. even pc games looked in that similar way for a while but it's starting to break away now. but i disagreed with you because there is no way in hell the ps3 is going to blow the xbox out of the water. i've had the ps3 for a while and i think i've seen about all it can do. same as 360. the ps3 is in 3rd place for two years now. u don't think if they had this raw untapped power they would've used it now? i say ps3 and xbox are about even. there is NO proof to the contrary. i personally hate CELL and blame stupid CELL for ANY of the ps3's undelivered promises. if they would've used two or four powerpc chips it would've been much better imo.

[marionz]

what a lame story, no onder the title was made to sound fanboyish, i guess it would have got verry few comments without a title like that...

[Kaneda]

Wow.. 11 people disagreeing with you..:)

[Meus Renaissance]

I have to stress that it is his professional opinion and doesn't necessarily mean that the Xbox 360 has hit its graphical limitations - it really is based on largely the expertise and skill of a studio as well as it is on the hardware itself. Personally I feel titles like KillZone 2 will be the limit of what we'll see this generation graphically. I'm not some sort of delusional fanboy but I haven't yet seen any 360 title that looks better than Uncharted or GT5 or even Ratchet & Clank; those titles really impressed me visually so it suggests that at the end of this generation, within the next 2-3 years, the PlayStation 3 will be the console with generally the better looking graphics although I would not be surprised if the two performed equally in that regard anyway. I just have this inkling that Sony's console is able to push that extra more onto our screens.

[Douchebaggery]

That "inkling" is just you using your eyes.

[dachiefsman]

you should have titled this submission with something that is not oozing with flame bait fodder....IMO

[green]

You submitted this story and you are making comments as if you did not listen to the podcast.Or did you submit the story to feed your fanboy agenda?hence the title that is taking out of context.

The name of the developer is Mark toranto,he works for Hidden Path Entertainment.A company with a staff of 32 and they make casual games mostly for xbox live arcade.

The game in question is called Defence Grid for xbox live arcade.

Now tell me how is a 150mb game utilizing the full power of the 360?

[jkhan]

I remember reading somewhere in an interview with Epic's some guy said that Gears of War uses 90% of 360 power and bla bla, and I know it was there first game so they must have optimized a lot to reduce that number this time around. But yeah we aren't seeing any breakthrough graphics on 360, like we are seeing at ps3. Look at R1 then Ratchet and Uncharted and then MGS4 and R2 and Killzone 2 and just imagine for one sec. how will God Of War 3 will look like;)

[princejb134]

yea i agree with u
since the 360 runs on a graphic card it is well known that every graphic card has a limit
all of us are unaware what willt he cell processors do for the ps3
mayb its the beginning of true next gen or mayb it will go down fall and fail
only time and money will tell in the future

[mabreu]

Yep. Thats right. It's a real word. Google it.

[Mum]

just take a look at all Ps3 Games.
MGS4 for example. it has great visuals but crappy texture quality unfortunately like any other ps3 game (except mirror's edge, which really surprised me). so i am really disappointed for this generation of consoles and i will stick to my pc and sell my 360. because pc gaming is the future!

[jkhan]

@MUM
Well with PS2 we saw what developer did in 2007 wasn't even remotely possible with PS2 in 2000. So it will take time for developers to do stuff with PS3. Plus imagine when Sony will allow developers to overclock the cell processor. By the way MGS4 doesn't have poor textures, if you are looking for insane amount of details then you should watch cgi movies instead of playing games;)

[SausageKing]

"crappy texture quality"

LOL...

You mean everything isn't covered in 'shiny normal maps'...

[castags]

you as dumb as your avatar looks

[name]

They need to ban the open zone for this article.

[JadeTyrant]

not even 3 years old and this already? It can't be good for anyone....who am I kidding? PS3 FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ppp]

i wish i never sold my ps3 now

[Mario]

The exa-box a 360 is one sangatory piece of a crap! I cannota believe that this pile of crap made ita this far. Heya Luigi! The Xboxa is a peaking out in graphics! Like a that time you were a peeking ata me getting changed! Heya Luigi, maybe we a should helpa the xcrap out. After all, it's power light isa the same colour as my hat most of the time!!!

[Pain]

spin spin spin ~ make something good up atleast kids...

@ Jade - LALALALA...
6 hours and my ban is up! Back to the "intelligent zone" - I lol'd hard at That Part.

[Nadine Coyle]

did u guys listen to the pod cast.
lol they are talking about an XBOX LIVE ARCADE GAME.
disagree if you want. but you cant change facts.

[Sir Ken Kutaragi]

...xBox 360's Graphics are the same...as the N64's!!! ;-D

+I went to the Opticians the other day after watching that
'Gears of War 2' video...She said my eye-sight was ok, she said the Video must of been the Blurry!!! ;-D

[Tmac]

No where in the interview are they stating the following is about XBL Arcade games. The questions he asks are about the Xbox 360 in general. Listen to the Podcast again if your still in denial.

[liquidsnake]

hahahaha, mario your comment made my day.

PS: For those who don't get it, read it with Mario's voice :P

[Defectiv3_Detectiv3]

Heya Mario, whya youa gotta makea funna mya accenta? Itsa lika alla youa doa isa ada "A"a toa everya worda anda youa thinka youra somea kinda Italiono! Bah Fangu stunad acino!

[joevfx]

how they hell could they hit there graphical limits with those C@$py little games.

[nevelo07]

probely could do a little better animation but it will never reach the animation level of uncharted because of the disc space so it could advance but not better than what we have already seen

[JadeTyrant]

6 hours and my ban is up! Back to the intelligent zone! (most of the time) 360 is garbage garbage garbage...get that trash and throw it. AWAY!!!

[JadeTyrant]

PLAY............STATION

[DarthTigra]

This is gonna result in some gamer zone bans.

[JadeTyrant]

XBOX 360!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shadow Flare]

RROD

[name]

Definetly. Meus..what have you done

[leeger]

this will get messy.

[SL1M DADDY]

That said the PS3 was maxed out a while back? Look what happened there. All I am saying is that these devs say what perhaps reflects their abilities and in the end there is always somebody else who can do more with the platform.

[JadeTyrant]

"this place can get pretty hot"................only when you turn on a 360! BA-DUM BUM!!!!!!!!

[mightydog01]

I've been banned for saying freefixme and thats not bad unlike what xbox say:-(

[mcnablejr]

already at graphical limit! hahha good luck in 2009 ! hahah
i still havent heard of any good exclusives for 360 in 09
lots of ps3 ones though hmmm..

[ukilnme]

So what if the 360 has reached it's graphical limit. As long as deveplopers push themselves too reach that limit the games will still look great. Personally I want the gameplay to be great more than anything.

[clintos59]

Devs like John Carmack and Valve who whine over the ps3 technology being not easy to work on will never know how to get the best out of a machine unless u give it your all. For example just like God of War on the ps2, the first was amazing but even near the ps2's life cycle, god of war 2 was even more stunning. Alot of devs are lazy to work on a system, and most of them complain but when they just look forward and work on the title with out half a$$ing there work, u come up with beautiful looking games. Just look at what Insomniac was able to do from resistance to ratchet and clank, also naughty dog with uncharted, and that was there first project working on a system that john carmack and Valve said was hard to work on. If Naughty Dog and Insomniac can create these games with such high detail, what makes Valve and Carmack's words look pretty stupid when they cant even creat a game that can out perform these 2 games graphically on the 360. If there is a game, show me proof because as of now Uncharted is still the best looking game ive seen on any console besides pc.

[ukilnme]

I can't dispute the claims about Uncharted as I have only played the demo. I can speak on R&C: TOD and it's a beautiful game that I'm still trying to finish. I think Heavenly Sword is beautiful too. The developers obviously took the time to get them right.

As for Valve and their position on PS3 development, I think it sucks but that is their choice.

For the developers that do make games on 360 and the PS3 I just wish they all would push themselves and the consoles to their limits instead of looking for a quick dollar. Most will probably reach their own limits before they reach the console's limits. If they can't reach the console's limits maybe they should ask another studio for help. I think it's cool that Insomniac is willing to help others out with the PS3. In the end gamers will benefit.

Edit: I just finished God of War 1 and I think I may have a new favorite game series. God of War 2 is up next. I just hope I can finish it before NG2 is released.

[dcbronco]

Those are guys who have a deep understanding of how computers work and what it takes to do things with computers. If you've ever listened to a interview of Carmack talking about computer architecture, you would understand that he is coming from a standpoint of having worked on many kinds of computers, on the development of new computer architecture and new ways of using a computers power. He doesn't come off as a guy who thinks something is too hard for him, but rather from the position of it's overly complicated for something that doesn't really provide much more ability. The Ps3 being more of a "Rube Goldberg" machine. When it comes to lazy developers, there is definitely some of that. But, I would never consider Carmack or Valve in that category. The guy is right, there is not enough innovation in the field. But, a lot of that comes from people looking to make a quick buck off of customers willing to pay for the same old thing. EA isn't the largest in the industry because they're good. They just buy anything established and market and hype things to the fullest. The guy is wrong on the graphics for the reasons you mention about the PS2, there will always be a developer who figures out a new way to get more power out of a console. The 360 is no exception to that. He is a example of a developer not being innovative. I can't believe you said Carmack is lazy. His hobby is rocket science and he's so good at it that his company was the only one that came close to developing our next lunar lander. If he wasn't so lazy maybe he would build a whole new planet.

[JadeTyrant]

My PS3!!!!!!!! Nah, I play and enjoy the 360 all the time.

Be a gamer, not a hater!!!

[Ko_Uraki]

Sad but true.

[tweaker]

Not really. Damage physics and models already confirmed. What you see now in Prologue isn't the graphical peak of the PS3 yet.

[clintos59]

Looked better then Forza on the 360. And to make it even worse this isnt even the final GT5 game, its just an early build of the game fro those who want to play the game until the final game is done with the damage physics and all. Yeah sad but, true.

[solsub]

^^Exactly. Ko, you can stop looking like an idiot now.

[Shadow Flare]

I told you so, didn't i tell you so? And this time its a 360 developer who thinks so too

http://www.n4g.com/NewsCom-...

[SKullDugger]

They are talking about XBLA games not Disc games.

[Mario]

Mamamia!!! The xboxa 360 woulda barely be able to handle a game where a me and Luigi jump ona mushroom heads ifa that dev seza so. But me anda Luigi jump on our mushroom heads ALL athe time!!!! Waya, its a super battyio brothers!!!

[Premonition]

all i have to say is the Cell+RSX combo is nothing to joke around with.

[TheXgamerLive]

If the Xbox 360 is getting close to it's limits then the ps3 must have already hit it's limits, I mean look at how sony games are already requiring a mandatory 3 and 4 gig download just so it can display a decent page/frame so I'm sure if sony wants more from the ps3 it's going to go to 10 and 12 gig MANDATORY dowloads before you know it. This is getting ridiculous.

[rhood022]

except the fact that the more graphically impressive PS3 games, both exclusive and multi-plat, do not require installs.

And even if it comes to "large" installs its no problem to go buy a larger hard-drive at a reasonable cost. How's that work on the 360 again? 120gb for how much?

[princejb134]

the installs is cause the blue ray has slow reading speed so a install is required to speed up loading

[harpua]

lol.....seriously, the best you can come up with is mandatory installs???

[Ace Ventura]

Try harder BOT.

Xbox 360 will be destroyed in every way possible.

Sony knows they will win.

[juuken]

I would rather have that than a system that crashes on me.

[TheKungFool]

I notice all your comments about graphical differences pertain to sloppy ported multiplats from 3rd party developers.

I also notice you didn't mention anything about PS3 developed games like "Uncharted", "Gran Turismo 5" and "Killzone2".....inte resting.

Just because EA or Ubisoft ported a game and didn't have as much experience with the PS3's structure, doesn't mean the PS3 is graphically inferior.

JASON 360, you sir, FAIL. Hard.

[joevfx]

YOUR AND IDIOOOOOOT!!!!!! STOP WITH THE MANDITORY GAME INSTALL CRAP!!!!! WHAT MORON WANTS TO STREAM A GAME OFF A OPTICAL DISC!!!!!!!! YOUR SATA HADDRIVE IS SO MUCH FASTER!!! HENCE THE REASON XBOX IS ADDING GAME INSTALLS ON THERE NEXT UPDATE!!!!! SHUT UP WITH THE MANDITORY INSTALLS!!!! LEARN YOUR TECHNOLOGY!!!!!

[Xlll]

Umm wait a minute isn't the 3fixme getting installs as well? Weren't you all talking about how great it is and how it will help? Now installs are bad again? Is it because you have to buy a MS made overprice HDD? You fail as always.

[Thoas]

Uncharted drakes fortune didn't have a HDD install, It took up 25gb on blu-ray though. It's considered by most to the best looking game so far this gen.

[Thoas]

What?? Uncharted loaded fast with no HDD install, matter of fact it loaded faster than games with HDD installs. So what are you talking about Noob?

[Z501]

Uh-oh!
(waits for the inevitable SPIN articles)

[nevelo07]

the 360 was dsoin so good in, but dang has it run itself into a black and blu monster thats the ps3 and its not even really trying yet, june 12th dang michro that day is going to hurt and you better hope that sony dosent release the 2d trophies along with msg4 cause then it really is gonna spell trouble,and it seems as if haze is going to do ok this month mgs4 next month socom september lbp october resistance home november killzone feburary god of war march ff13 is coming wardevil uncharted 2 man i gotta long list but you get the picture

[Stinkey]

That is a constant flow of Good first party titles. Who the hell need games from companies like EA and Ubi when SONY is doing the JOB themselves.

[Robearboy]

Why is everyone so obsessed with the graphics, look at the last gen, the xbox was far superior to the ps2 in terms of graphics etc but the ps2 offered a much more variety of games and thats why it did so amazingly well, sure the ps3 will have better graphics but only on the exclusives and they wont be a huge difference

[princejb134]

well this is next gen and where expecting next gen graphics not ps2 or xbox graphics but far surpass that

[SausageKing]

The difference between the PS2,Xbox, and GameCube were minor last gen.

The Xbox was better at multipass rendering - aka 'bumpy shiny' effects
The PS2 was better at framebuffer effects and floating point
The GameCube had its fast ram and very quick seeking disc format

All three consoles last gen pumped out roughly the same poly counts.

What is different this gen is this is the first time a console has had such an enormous graphical power advantage over its competitor. This is the first generation where one console, the PS3, utterly decimates another in every single graphical category:

Resolution
Poly count
Animation
Material rendering
Image quality

[name]

Now you're starting to sound like a wii owner

[predator]

wow people listin to the podcast and not just read the title, he is talking about a Live Arcade game and not full retail. then comment

[DarthTigra]

Dude this is n4g.

[Premonition]

That doesnt sound to good, I mean if your reaching graphical limits on a Live Arcade game, I dont know how, but I can see if he ment uploading them to the server since MS has a limit.

[Meus Renaissance]

The interview is specifically about his title but Major always asks his interviewees general questions about video games.

"Looking back on all the work you've done in the industry, are you surprised at where you are today in terms of technology or do you see alot of power in the box to be unlocked - specifically for the Xbox 360.."

Mark then goes on to talk about visuals, in terms of photo realism in video games compared to artistic flair that developers, he feels, should focus on more. This particular segment of the interview has nothing to do with Arcade games, what kind of question would it be anyway to talk about the technological limitations of games that need to be less than 256MB

[Elginer]

was about to say I was like..dude simply said he thinks that graphically "we've all pushed graphically based on realism and that he likes painterly more artistic style graphics"

[Tmac]

Maybe you should listen to the article more closely. No where in that interview does he mention the following about XBL games. He clearly denotes that he's specifically talking about the Xbox 360 console and its graphics. I whole heartily agree, with the PC architecture the Xbox 360 has, it was just a matter of time. The Xbox 360 isn't a complex console, don't act so surprised that they said this, I saw it coming from a mile away.

[HondaSIRowner]

There is almost no difference form the first Gears sames goes for Halo2 and 3.

[SKullDugger]

FYI the cell processor is not the GPU it is the main CPU. The RSX is the GPU.

[shine1396]

but there have long been murmurs that cell can simulate a gpu peformance and perhaps better it as we go along...

[rebirthofcaos]

to Xgamer i think that your point is not really valid since the ps2 do a huge leap on grafics, also the point to the install is because the bluray is somewhat slow.the point i think about hwy the 360 is almost at its limits is because it doesnt have future like bluray, cell, and it is easy to develop for.if you know who to develop in something easy you will reach the limit in no time unlikely the ps3 that is hard to develop for.

[pickle1234]

there is still more thats able to be done graphics. I'm sure gears 3 will looke better than 2 but not much more. But gears 2 is very graphically impressive. nothing really compares to it except MGS. But i don't think ps3 can do much more either. i think both systems are almost maxed out graphically. But still have more left. You wont be seeing a big step up from Gears 2 or MGS. I guarantee you.

[thenickel]

The 360 has not met it's limits and nowhere in the podcast does it say that! There talking about XBLA people! Some of you will do anything to downplay the 360!

[PStriple703]

scared?

[thenickel]

No I'm not scared of anything and play games on all consoles for fun! Regardless of whats said on this site I still view the 360 as the better console for games and graphics regardless of what people like Meus and others try and say! Speaking of afraid I will never understand why the PS3 fanbase is afraid of just giving credit where it is due! The 360 has 2 maybe 3 years of life left so get over your jealous animosity towards it because it's going to be around for awhile!

[Tmac]

They are not talking about XBL he's talking specifically about the Xbox 360, no where in the interview does he state the following is about XBL Arcade Games. I'm sorry, you can spin this anyway you feel necessary but it is what it is.

Are you really that surprised? The Xbox 360's technology is derived exactly that of PC architecture, where the limit's are easy to define. I think we've started to already see the Xbox 360 slow down in terms of graphical prowess and I think it just might be Gears 2.

[Meus Renaissance]

For those calling people to listen to the interview, stating that he is talking about XBLA - you're making yourselves look foolish. The interview is specifically about his title but Major always asks his interviewees general questions about video games.

"Looking back on all the work you've done in the industry, are you surprised at where you are today in terms of technology or do you see alot of power in the box to be unlocked - specifically for the Xbox 360.."

Mark then goes on to talk about visuals, in terms of photo realism in video games compared to artistic flair that developers, he feels, should focus on more. This particular segment of the interview has nothing to do with Arcade games, what kind of question would it be anyway to talk about the technological limitations of games that need to be less than 256MB.

Why don't you listen to the interview yourselves for a change?

[thenickel]

I did listen to the interview and it's very misleading! There talking about XBLA and I'm sure there will be a response to that comment soon! Actually you sound foolish for trying to spin this for whatever reason!

[Tmac]

Actually Nickel, you sound foolish for trying to spin this. No where in the interview before Nelson asks the question does he mention the following is about XBL Arcade Games.

[PimpHandHappy]

if games look like COD for the next few years i will be happy with that

but

im happy i will see PS3 exclusives blow COD out of the water over the next couple years

PS3 FTW

[v1c1ous]

Meus is saying it's a general comment

but like 4-5 people are saying that its talking about a xbox live arcade game.

which is it (my speakers are broken currently)

[green]

look at previous comment but if you cant

The name of the developer is Mark Torano,he works for Hidden Path Entertainment.A company with a staff of 32 and they make casual games mostly for xbox live arcade and PC.

The game in question is called Defence Grid for xbox live arcade.

Now tell me how is a 150mb game utilizing the full power of the 360?

[Diugu]

...he is talking about games in general and not just his.

[Leathersoup]

Hmmm.. Mark Terrano says the 360's at it's limit and Epic says they're managing to get more out of it. Who to listen to?

[PimpHandHappy]

well i have yet to find any A.I that really out smarts me. It will never happen! but I have found my virtual victims using cover and flanking me in a game like Uncharted

Animation. I dont know but what i take from this is shinny cartoon looking graphics.

anyway

i wont listen to this podcast.

[SuperSaiyan4]

The system with the least number of top titles and largest number of titles with the worst version of games is the PS3...Whereas the 360 has games...Lots of games and exclusives.

All PS3 owners can talk about is MGS4, KZ2 and Resistance 2 blah blah blah same old crap.

[juuken]

And all that can be bragged about is Gears of War 2.

[solsub]

Yup. Promising "old crap" that hasn't been released yet. You obviously rock.

[Ludwig]

.................. they are talking about XBLA graphical limit .............

[Redlight]

The responses in this thread really do expose the sad secret of N4G these days. There is virtually no reasoned discussion, just the barely literate ranting of people like Sausage King.

Read the news people and ignore the comments, 90% of the contributors here are morons.

[Kaz Hirai]

How SAD- your "console" still can't produce better graphics than Gears of War! Actually, it's not sad- it's FUNNY: AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Such a MISERABLE, STINKING FLOP!

28 days until Judgment Day, Nazisoft!

MWAH-HA-HA-HA!!!

[poeo]

Considering the 360 launched a year or more before the ps3, i think it's holding up extremely well in the graphics department. As hard as it is to admit as a ps3 owner, our games don't really look THAT much better... Uncharted and GT5P would look awesome on the 360 too

[Meus Renaissance]

Major: Looking back on all the work you've done in the industry, are you surprised at where you are today in terms of technology or do you see alot of power in the box to be unlocked - specifically for the Xbox 360..

Developer: I think we've really pushed where we can go graphically, I think realism is losing some of the luster - I would love to see some work done on what we call "non-photo realistic rendering", paint-related techniques, we do things you can do in movies but I'm more interested in what you can't do in movies...

Major: Interesting..

Developer. I thought it was sad that we had to let the Matrix to show how fun Bullet-Time could be, we (developers) have control of the camera, we have control of the content, we're not limited by lenses etc, we (the industry) can do alot more things to draw the players attention to tell a story that haven't been discovered by movie camera's.

Major: Interesting, I never really thought of it like that. Why keep pushing the photo-realism that you could do more things to make the gameplay more effective.

Developer: Right. And I think the bar could be alot higher with animation and A.I, the things really cue into when interacting with an environment to make it more believable, to just make the characters - the scenes, we interact with more fun. We're seeing really good physics now, we all know how much fun it is to drive and smash cars in BURNOUT and do alot of things to make it more fun with the physics..etc

EDIT: The fact that someone can disagree with a transcript shows you people's unwillingness to accept the notion that ONE developer thinks the 360 has hit a graphical limit, and the lack of sincerity in their claim that this is all about an XBLA title. It's like if I say I don't own a 360, I'll get a disagree automatically. Lol Fine. Just don't accuse me of deliberately trying to spin something.

[Meus Renaissance]

It's understandable that people can confuse this because they did not listen to the entire FULL interview, just parts of it when they started to talk about the game he is developing now, but like with most of his interviewees, the Major asks developers questions on the industry and he was no different with what he asked Mark, and Mark responded to talk about visuals and animation in video games, from an industry point of view, not a specific title point of view as some are confusing here.

I'm frustrated that people can hypocritically criticise me for not listening to the interview when it is clearly them who misunderstood the entire thing. I have posted several times disputing their allegations with evidence, and all they seem to hit me back with is Bla Bla Blah, I even provided a damn transcript, what else do you want?

Who would ask about the graphical limitations of Arcade games? Honestly, you people need to accept that it is his opinion - if you disagree, you are free to, it does not make either of you wrong or right. But don't spin it and then have the balls to accuse me of being a fanboy; I like irony but that's just kinda sad.

[dle]

Mark is talking about "diminishing return" as the whole industry pushes for movie realism. At current level not much more can be done to wow people. We are at a point where doubling the number of polygons does not make the cars in say PGR4 twice as nice looking as the ones in PGR3. This is probably why Rockstar chose to shy away from the more realistic style of Call of Duty 4. Games like COD4 are already descent approximation of movie realism. But to get to where game visuals become indistinguishable from reality require a leap of processing power way beyond current hardware ability! And Mark is trying to say there is no point in trying to push this much further, this generation.

[Z501]

Why would someone talk about the graphical limitations of an XBLA title?
What is this 1989?
It's a general comment about the 360.NOT XBLA.

SPIN,SPIN,SPIN
I'm dizzy.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

You can't realy get any better than "photo realistic" for that is the highest limit. When the castle is full of gold and you can't put anymore in(photo realistic), it's time to start painting that castle gold (animation) and paying for better soldiers to gaurd it (A.I.)
PGR4, Burnout, FNR3, GRAW2, Condemned 2, and the latest racer Grid all are good examples of "photo realism" because in certian lighting conditions you can compair those games to movies. Once you reach the ceiling, there is nowhere else to go but to another room. It's realy cool that 360 owners get to see thigs like this first, even though all consoles will reach this area, Nintendo will on the next round.

[BUKKAKALYPSE]

"You can't realy get any better than "photo realistic" for that is the highest limit"

it's called 4D my friend

[DontH8DPlayaH8DConsl]

how many of those games are on both systems? so how do the 360 owners get to see things like this first. how can you mention photorealism without gt5p just shows your mentality

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

DontH8DPlayaH8DConsl How many multiplatform games does the 360 have a graphical advantage? if you said 98%, you are right :) here I have a a few links if you need it http://www.gamespot.com/fea... http://kotaku.com/gaming/xb... http://digg.com/gaming_news... http://www.gamespot.com/fea... http://www.gametrailers.com... So it doesnt matter If I list multiplatform games when compairing graphics, because they make up over 85% of all games. So... 98% of 85% means the 360 is superior to that of the PS3, and we still have the exclusives to compair :)

[BUKKAKALYPSE]

i thought all PS3's come with standard 4D graphics..must have been lied to :)

[Tmac]

Jason, the Xbox 360 wanted its final horizon to be photo-realistic. It looks like the PS3 is taking over from here on out.

[PStriple703]

anyone surprised?

[ukilnme]

Nope, I'm not surprised to see the Sony "Faithful" all over this. Not surprised at all.

[gambare]

The 360 already reached it's graphical limit? and many devs are saying the PS3 is barely scratching it's power lol

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Funny, and the PS3 is always 3 steps behind the 360 in graphics, just look at all the games currently released and soon to be released. Just look at these http://www.gametrailers.com... or type 360 vs PS3 graphic compairison in google, select image, and enjoy the PS3 beatdown :) Fu*k the PS3 loses 98& of all multiplatform side by sides, and multiplatform games are like 80% of the gaming industry.

LOL sooooooo sad isn't it?

[juuken]

...What?
Three steps behind?!
Uncharted, Grand Turismo 5 Prologue, and MGS4 all say hello.

[tweaker]

A console with a 1 year head start and a very very familiar architecture vs. a console a year late with an absolutely different architecture in every aspect? What do you expect? Of course the 360 is going to reign on top for multiplatform titles. More evident during the PS3's early life. But remember that's only temporary. What we saw in the Geow2 only shows how much more the 360 can be pushed. The 360 is nearing its graphical limit and the PS3 has only begun.

[harpua]

so funny to see bots grasping at straws....

[castags]

Didn't we just have a story about them posting BS comparison videos? You got your chance last year to gloat about yer 360 but you should stfu and sit down and watch how fast the ps3 rails your mother (the xbox). As of late there aint much difference in multi game there pop. Go hug your box and keep telling yourself the BS you wish was true.

EDIT- i own all 3 current gen and a sick @ss PC so ickmynutz

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Question: Since the PS3 is behind the 360 in absolutly every category other than disc movies, wouldn't it be you who are "grasping" at out straws?

Please point me to a link that shows the PS3 having a graphical advantage of more than 3 games. Or... shos where the PS3 is ahead of the 360 in anything other than EU sales and disc movies sales. No? well thats to bad, because I have many.

Have a nice (LOL) 3rd place day dude. I'll be playing a bunch of games tonight, so if Im in a game your not playing, send me an invite..... oh wait nevermind :)

Edit: here are some more links for more 360/PS3 side by sides if you don't like GT, enjoy :) http://www.gamespot.com/fea... http://digg.com/gaming_news... http://kotaku.com/gaming/xb... http://images.google.com/im... (BURN BABY BURN) http://video.google.com/vid...

^^^LIKE I SAID IN MY FIRST COMMENT^^^ "three steps behind"

[juuken]

Jason...
...
...
...
...
you're a moron.
I really didn't know what else to say when I saw your post.

[FPS nut]

Why don't you just say he owned you? Thats what I thought when I read it.

[Ace Ventura]

MELTDOWN ALERT!!!!!

XBox 360 will be DESTORYED. LIke it already is in software, Harware, anticpated games, soon to be online gaming.

It's over BOT. CRY. CRY. WHINE. Xbox 360 is going to lose by ALOT.

[juuken]

He owned me with some pure bullcrap he just grabbed from his ass?
Oh, I was owned alright. I was so owned that I got K.O'ed by his ownage.

[Zool 08]

Please Please stop living in the past, This is 2008 not 2006 when the 360 was taking on the PS2, and even then it was graphicaly shown the door by GOW2, so what chance does it have against the PS3 almighty 2008 line up?

In the words of King Kaz

28 days till judgment day, Nazisoft!

MWA-HA-HA-HA!

[Tmac]

I don't even need to make fun of you Jason, about 20 people already are.

[liquidsnake]

Very good Gayson 180, you're posting the exact same pictures over and over and on top of that, showing us games that was made for PS3 in 2006. Very good. If developers are having difficulties programming games for the PS3 now, what makes you think those multiplat games from 2006 would be better?

[juuken]

Um...so yeah.
*plays another sad tune for the 360*

MS, I am sorry to say but you really should have stuck with software.

[AngryTypingGuy]

But then everyone would be stuck with Sony's lackluster games and controller.

[juuken]

Stop trying xbot.
Seriously, just STOP.

June 12th = Judgment Day.

MS is losing steam, and it's going to go down even faster when MGS4 hits the stores.

[AngryTypingGuy]

You stop, retard. You put your jammies on every night and pray that MS will leave the gaming business before mommy tucks you in, but it won't happen. The fact is, MS is here to stay, and not everyone wants the Sony experience. Sorry. I'll take Xbox any day of the week. Better games, better controller, better Live service, an awesome movie download selection, etc.

June 12th will come and go, and MGS4 will rock the gaming world and boost Sony sales. Then November will come and Gears 2 will rock the gaming world and boost MS sales. Then eventually they'll both drop their prices and you know what happens next...it will boost sales. So stop with your little fantasyland mindset that MS will disappear from the gaming world. It won't happen, and we'll all be better off for it. Competition is good.

[tehReaper]

Good points ATG. Agreed.

Juuken..MGS4 will be an amazing game, but it won't have more of a hit than GTAIV did and neither will Gears 2(as much as I'm anticipating it). GTA appealed to many people, because it's the best working sandbox franchise. MGS4 is stealth, which in all honesty, isn't as big a category. There will be fans of the genre that buy it, but "judgement day"?

Don't give in to the dumba$$ part of the droid army. You at least have some common sense. Don't follow the stalker, annoying, full of sh!t portion.

[juuken]

I'm not falling into the *droid* army as you're claiming. I only own a PS3 and I support Sony. The more MS stays in the gaming business, the more they're going to lose to Sony. They're the ones that are spreading damage control because they're going to LOSE. MS knows NOTHING about friendly competition so I don't see why you fools continue to EVEN support them.

Like I've been saying-the zombies will never change.

And I never said MS will disappear. I said that they're LOSING steam. Sooner or later, Sony will catch up to them, and believe me, I will be breaking out some champagne when they do.

You're underestimating the popularity of MGS4 yet again. If Konami had so much trouble with MGOnline, then what makes you THINK that MGS4 won't be a huge seller?

And we cannot judge sales yet because the game isn't even OUT yet.

You gentleman fail once again.

[tehReaper]

The problem with you, Juuken, is that you refuse to look at other people's point of view. I hardly EVER dis the PS3, simply because I own one, yet I get so much crap for being pro-360. People like you look at everything like it's a conspiracy. Microsoft is suddenly the anti-christ. Microsoft is adding a new experience by joining the console race. How is that bad? If you have a problem with unreliable consoles, okay, just don't buy it. But you go on here and denounce anything good about the 360. If Sony had no competition, they'd be worse at releasing crap. Look at all the promises they made and didn't deliver WITH competition.

I'm sick of relying on Sony for all my gaming needs, because they simply haven't delivered this generation yet. MGS4 will be amazing like I said, and no I don't underestimate it, I just truly don't think it'll sell as much as you guys think it will. It will sell a lot, but come on. It's all hype, just like any other game that gets steam.

[Nevers]

If you listen to the cast you would realize the guy is talking about XBLA games... not larger studio retail games.

EDIT> Actually on a re-listen to the specific minutes; it's kinda muddled what exactly this dev's specifically talking on.

[felidae]

there are a few games that forced me to sell my ps3 and buy my 2nd xbox 360. skate (framerate issues, The Darkness (framerate issues), Pro Evolution Soccer (horrible framerate and online) GTA IV (AA issues and horrible online), Jericho, Condemned 2, Dark Sector ...

all of these games perform better on the 360 - i've been a ps3 fan all the time but i want smooth gameplay with smooth graphics. sometimes i got a headache because of GTA IV's online lags on ps3 .. and please let me not mention EA's skate.

it's also annoying that you can "tweak" some settings in the display and BD options to get the best out of the ps3 (like the story about turning 1000 things off to make skate run smooter). i want a complete system that performs like it should.

it's a balance between some nice exclusives on the ps3 (like MGS4, LBP, KZ2 .. ) and better framerate and graphics on the 360 in almost all multiplatform games. i sat 2 hours in front of my TV to spot the difference between ps3 and 360 GTA and after playing online it was clear to me that i want a 360 again.

i could kick myself that i sold my ps3 because of MGS 4, LBP and KZ2 but i can't afford 2 systems so i go with better multiplatform games and "some" very cool 360 exclusives.

i hope to get a ps3 again in the near future but for now .. i hope that i don't get a RROD ;-)

[AngryHippo]

Good comment.

[ukilnme]

@ idontcare

I understand what you are saying about the framerate. But is that a PS3 problem or a developer problem?

[solsub]

^^Ti's up to the dev's to optimize their game for that respective console, not the console manufacturer.

[ukilnme]

@ solsub

That was the point of my post.

[AngryHippo]

.....how many Sony loyalists are in this thread sprouting cr@p. I am a playstation fan, but a playstation fanboy hater. Talk about giving Sony fans a bad name. 360 has NOT reached its limit graphically, theres still plenty to be gotten out of both consoles. People are seriously such graphics whores. The way things are going games developers are just going to focus on graphics and less on gameplay, if a game looks great, the massive following of graphics whores will buy it because it looks great, but gameplay could be crap but in their eyes its a gaming marvel and will still sell loads.

[Leathersoup]

To be quite honest I don't think either console is that much better than the other, graphically or otherwise.
For all of the posturing you see in these forums, I have yet to see one game appear on one that could not be run on the other with almost identical performance and video quality given sufficient development time.
Burnout was developed for the PS3 and the 360 was secondary, yet there are very few differences in the game. Most of the titles that were developed for the 360 and then ported to the PS3 could have been made to run better just as well as the 360 if the assigned dev team knew the proper programming techniques to goose the PS3.

All of this e-peen jousting makes me sick of this website. If you and your friends enjoy playing PS3? Great! If Xbox Live makes you feel all warm and fuzzy? That's good to hear!

Let's keep the comments on this site for intelligent conversation.

[AngryHippo]

....+ bubbles for you my friend. True gamer.

[BUKKAKALYPSE]

bubbz for u

[iconic blade]

the 360 is very close to be maxed out,and after killzone2 comes out you wont be seeing much better ps3 graphics.killzone2 has a massive budget and is gonna take around 4 years dev time.most games would not be able to do that..

and the graphics i have seen on both consoles like gow,bioshock,hs,unchartered,mg s4 are great and slightly better graphics
would not have made them any better.

graphics are gonna be excellent on both consoles and you are gonna get poor/average looking games too.so why go on about whether a console has reached its limits or not when the main thing about a game is that it plays well and is fun,not how much detail and textures a wall shows or how good is the fog.and if so many of you love graphics so much,sell your consoles and get a pc because a pc pwns both consoles

[Meus Renaissance]

I never said what he was saying was factual, in fact I've said all alone it his professional opinion, only one developer. I could find a developer who would believe the 360 can do more than the PS3, does that automatically make it true? No. I could find a developer who feels the PS3 is capable of more, does that automatically make it factual? No.

We've already had similar discussions based on specific aspects like frame-rate and storage space expressed by other developers; they usually disagreed as people did here too.

Yes things like this get the "politicians" out from both sides but then what do you honestly expect? Just ignore their comments.

[thenickel]

Ok I listened to the podcast again and yes your right he's talking about the console. I retract all of my earlier comments and owe you an apology Mr. Mues. This is the developers opinion and I respect that but hopefully other developers feel different or it's time to release the next box soon.

[Dareaver1]

why did you submit this article, and what did you expect was going to be the end result. This a small sized developer who produces XBLA games for a living. I could understand if he worked on bigger graphically intensive games. But his expertise have been with Live Arcade games and their 150mb limit.

I know it's kind of an extreme comparison, but would you ask a XNA developer has the 360 reached it's limit....?

I believe that the opinion this developer was expressing was in the gaming industry as a whole. And our obsession with graphical fidelity.

I believe that there is a lot of truth to what he said. We need to see more evolution with AI and physics. Look at last gen, one of the most underated games was Psychonauts.

Psychonauts was an awesome game that did not express the peak of graphical fidelity, but showed creativeness that was by far one of the best games of that year.

Look at Ico, and Shadow of the Colossus, not only that; Okami and Beyond Good and Evil.

Right now we focus too much on graphics and need to see the other aspects of gaming. It is an art form.

But your submission of this article is questionable, like i asked before, what responses were you expecting from this article.

[DJ]

Too often we hear from PS3 developers about the hardware, but rarely do we hear anything from 360 developers. Any type of developer is fair game, whether they make small titles or larger ones.

It's important to put everything into perspective.

[athlon770]

Nice to see someone in here has the coconuts to do what you just did. Makes me think this place could have some hope after all.

Dareaver, he posted it because like the posting rules say, even articles that do not shine a positive light on your console of choice still need to be submitted. Just because you do not like what it says, maybe I have been following the game he starts out talking about and wanted to know about the pod cast. It is not Meus's fault that the Major took him down that path. He asked a simple question, and this developer told him what he thought. Like Meus says, this is just one developers OPINION!

And no, I have not listened to the pod cast as I am currently at work. But I find it interesting that all the 360 followers are raising a ruckus over this trying to "spin" this into a different light and claiming that the PS3 followers are making things up just to find out they are the very ones that are out of control.

Listen, I like my 360 alot, but if you are going to try and convince me that Gears of War 2 is going to be heads and tails above the original (showing growth in the visual dept) I will call B.S. I was very disappointed in Halo3, and you want to talk about games giving you a headache, try playing Mass Effect some time! And have you truly looked at any of the high profile games from the 360? Am I the only one that sees all the dithering going on? What are they using, a 256 color depth on some of those games? OK, maybe 256 was going too far, perhaps 16bit would be a closer color depth.

Anyway, I tip my hat at you Nickel for doing what so few around here are able to do.

[sixaxis]

Im so excited about god of war 3, as u remember those developers pushed the ps2 to its graphical limit. And to the point where so many ps2 haters had to admit that they were wrong about ps2s visuals. Im not saying that santa monica will do the same with ps3 but still we will see some mad, crazy graphics from this game. (definetly better than uncharted)

[misterssippi]

He says "we've pushed where we can go graphically", in terms of games being photo realistic. He doesn't say the 360 is at its graphical limits. The spazz who put this story up just wants a flame war. What you folks don't seem to understand is that its not an issue of whether a game system can achieve X amount of graphical content. Graphical limitation is limited to disc space an dev. skill mostly. For instance I can make game 'A' at 1gb. I can make the same game at 12 gb. Guess which one will look better? In other words the tech is already in the box, its what the devs to with it that matters. And again disc space isn't really an issue b/c there is such a thing as multi disc games for that. No Big Deal.

[Meus Renaissance]

Major asked him specifically about the 360, all his comments were Xbox 360 related. Again, please read the transcript or listen to the interview or do both at the same time and you'll also recognise this. Your slur of me is unjustified Mister

And the funny thing is, you and I shared the same opinion if you read my comments here.

I don't know if people here are disagreeing with this developers opinion, or disagreeing with the context of his comments but I've said and done all I can to convince people of the context. If they disagree, that's okay by me. Don't really care anymore

[misterssippi]

Major did ask him specifically, but his answer was a general one:

"I think we've really pushed where we can go graphically, I think realism is losing some of the luster - I would love to see some work done on what we call "non-photo realistic rendering", paint-related techniques, we do things you can do in movies but I'm more interested in what you can't do in movies..."

Nowhere in this statement did he say the 360 or XBLA has hit a graphical limit. He is speaking of the industry as it pertains to the Graphics over Gameplay mentality. He's saying we have achieved Photo realism, but whats next?, and saying he's more interested in innovation.

I read the transcript and listened to the podcast several times, and I choose my words carefully. Being that your story title is flameworthy (whether accidental or purposely) and not at all what this dev. said, I can only assume that you are more interested in sensationalism than journalism. I understand the context in which the commment was made, and your title and description of the podcast are shall we say not quite in the spirit of the original comment.

My apologies for labeling you a spazz, but I am a person who values truth in journalism, and not blur between what was said and what was printed.

[kewlkat007]

I mean, if EPIC or Infinity Ward..etc was saying something like this but just asking who is this guy and what's his pedigree?

I hope this guy does not make XBL games and talk this nonsense....

[Z501]

Play the PC ver. of "exclusives".

I love how some people call themselves true gamers, yet play the inferior ver. of a game, then use the money excuse.

(If you have any excuse, your're not a true gamer)

PC/PS3/360/Wii/PSP/DS = true gamer

EDIT:
The SPIN is strong in this thread.

Again.
WHO'S PUTTING PHOTO-REALISTIC GAMES ON XBLA?

I'll wait. (i got time)

[ukilnme]

Consider me casual then.

PS3/360/Wii/PSP. I don't hate PC gaming, I just don't game on PCs anymore.

[MK_Red]

I don't think the graphical limit is reached, neither as a whole or for 360 / PS3.
No console reaches it's graphical peak until 5 to 6 years. At least Genesis, PSone and PS2 didn't.

[ToastyMcNibbles]

hmm...i dont believe 360 has reached its graphical limits yet...for that matter no console will reach its graphical limits in only 2 years or so thats kind of unrealistic at least to me...best example is the ps2..compare early ps2 games to more recent ones like god of war 2...you wont see the graphical limits of the systems till the ending of their lifecycles which will probably be in another 5 or 6 years..thats when you'll see these systems really push what is possible graphics wise

[Rhezin]

game would look DOPE AS F!CK in HD.

[Stryfeno1]

He's talking about the industry as a whole. What part dont people understand?

[Tunerboy8732]

and games like Soul Calibur 4,Mirror's Edge,Ninja Gaiden ll & Gears Of War 2 will show that.Just because a Xbox Live Arcade Game reached its graphical limit doesnt mean you have to look at the 360 different.The one thing that keeps you playing a game the most is the gameplay.If that isnt good it doesnt matter how amazing the visuals are your gonna get bored with it quick.

[Figboy]

body to show up floating in the Hudson River in a few days, with the curious letters "B.G." carved into his forehead...

[zonetrooper5]

WHATS THAT?

THE PS3 AND 360 ARE WEAK AND THEY HAVE ALREADY HIT THEIR LIMIT!

Oh I guess I go back to my PC with mods, free content, free online, cheaper games, better graphics etc.

[castags]

Ray trace? I know my ps3 can.

[Surfman]

my ps3 can read blu-ray
my ps3 can play ps3-exclusives
my ps3 can let me download free demos
my ps3 is awesome

my pc is good, but for gaming, i prefer my console.

[Xlll]

Enjoy playing with next to no one.

[wow4u]

So, lets take some comment totally out of context and make up a worthless slam against a microsoft product.

quick! post it to N4G!

This website sucks.

[LevDog]

Well what do you expect.. Thats what happens when you make a console thats super easy to dev for.. Didnt Dreamcast have that problem? Also I mean come on using a DVD9 disc? Upgrade to something new this is suppose to be next gen....

The news just keeps getting worse

[tehReaper]

You're an idiot. You can't just upgrade in the middle of a generation. There would be so many people that'd miss out.

Keep in mind Microsoft released their console before HD formats were battling hardcore. Sony included Bluray because it's THEIR technology.

You're just retarded, my friend.

[RAM MAGNUMS]

yeah right, the best animation on xbox was halo3, but the a.i has been copied ever since killzone 1!
Killzone was the first game to have the ai that made you nervous with the way they came at you & cornered you. As of right now gta got it all but killzone had the helgast scream at you & call out orders especially when you was low on ammo. Can't say the same for squad ai though. RICO would soak up the bullets but that was way back on ps2. Which is funny because mass effect got high reviews but killzone 1 got points taken away because of the squad a.I.

IMO the best squad ai was found in rbv6.

[MainEventX]

PS3 is the only true next-gen system the Wii and 360 shouldn't even be considered next-gen consoles. First off the Wii and 360 still use an old format called DVD which only holds 4.7 gbs of data or 9gb on dual layer disc, the PS3 uses Blu-ray which holds 25gb of data or 50gb on dual layer disc. The Wii has no hdmi port which is necessary for the future while the 360 has an hdmi port 1.2 and the PS3 has an hdmi port that supports 1.3a. The differences first off 1.2 supports 16.7 million colors while 1.3a supports over 1 billion colors. 1.2 cant use Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio and it cant support 7.1 surround sound, while on the other hand hdmi 1.3a supports all that plus more. hdmi 1.2 can only support 1920x1080p60fps maxed out while 1.3a supports 2560x1600p60fps maxed out. An added bonus about 1.3a also supports x.y.Color and Deep Color which 1.2 dosent. 1.3a also has a way higher transfer rate and bit rate compared to 1.2. Also the 360 has 3 core processors which is old news considering Intel makes Quad Core Processors while the PS3 has the revoluntionary Cell processor which has 8 and the Wii has a weak processor we dont even nedd to talk about.You cant even upgrade the 360 HD unless u pay for an overpriced 120 piece of crap HD on th PS3 u can upgrade your HD limitleesly. The 360 or the Wii doesnt even have an HD movie playback drive the PS3 does. The PS3 is built stronger than both the Wii and 360 it can handle more heat and cold and still not break down. Also the PS3 firmware constantly upgrades the system and by far has the most multimedia compatibilities compared to the Wii and 360. The RSX GPU can handle DirectX 10 level details and graphics the 360 GPU can't. The PS3 is truly the only system worthy of being called next gen and is the most future proof console that ever existed.

[TL24]

You really have no idea of what your talking about do you? Not hating but I love my PS3 and I dont hate the 360, but you should look up what you're talking about before posting.

The PS3's RSX does not use DirectX 9 or 10... It uses Open GL not DirectX, also the 360's Xenos can do DirectX 9 with some 10 capabilities

[Tmac]

Xbox 360 can't do DirectX10, this is known fact. Neither can the PS3, but what the PS3 has over the Xbox 360 is Mt Evans OpenGL 3.0, the successor of Dx10 for consoles.

So your comment is false, but you learned something in the process.

[Varsarus]

Yep, Mt Evans only on PS3, not 360, since OpenGL is Direct3D's rival

The RSX was designed to use OpenGL to it's fullest extent.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[jspc1989]

really! what is everyone excepting real world visualisations where the character models are actual humans running around not game creations.

wud everyone please stop calling ps3, 360 and wii - next gen consoles - they were next gen consoles over a year ago, now this just this gen consoles.

these days games seem to sell based purely on eye candy and its annoying. i love great graphics as much as the next person, but im not expecting anything godlike, not now not ever. people need to remember that games are in fact just games not real world simulations. all the fun seems to hav been taken out of gaming nowadays.

just think about this, eventually graphics are going to reach there limit completely where it cant go any further maybe in about the next 3 gens or so. personally ill be quite disappointed if the next gen of consoles just incorporate a few more cpu's and graphics cards.

im not a big fan of the wii purely becus of the fact i dont like alot of its games but i think nintendo have the right idea.

a vastly improved wii concept for the more ''hardcore audience'' would be awesome - some people need to remember that they are arguing over GAMES.

if your willing to defend something becus u think its that good then why arent u off playing it?!.

personally i came on here out of curiosity - just finished metal gear solid 2 and am going through 3.then i just have to get through lost planet and mass effect lol.

p.s. cant wait til i get a ps3 in september to get metal gear solid 4 with :-D.

[DarkCowMoo]

I hope this console war will end sooner then the 100 years war.
By the way, did you know that the year the war started war 1337 :D.

Ok, getting back to the topic. I truly think the 360 has more to give, but only time will tell. Remember the PS3 has it's limitations too.
I wonder when were the times when you didn't really need graphic to enjoy the game, just pure gameplay...

[DrRage77]

if any of you anti-360 clueless TROLLS would have actually listened to the podcast, then you would realize that he is talking about the limits of XBLA games, and the gaming industry in GENERAL

it is amazing how many TROLLS jump on here and post comments after only reading a misleading title. i hope all those TROLLS realize just how stupid and ignorant they made themselves look.....AGAIN!!

[OC_MurphysLaw]

I couldn't agree more! Somehow people just read and hear what they want. This site sadly has become a flame fest for news postings. Anything that goes up regardless of what it is seems to become a 360 vs PS3 flame war.

Despite the retarded comments that have been listed now for three pages...I found the interview pretty good and insightful to a degree.

[mcnablejr]

i admired 360 for a while when hd films were being made but when that failed, the 360... did a 360 and turned into a meltdown machine.
i want people to list 360 good features
and others to list good ps3 features:

GO!

[7h3ultim8p00]

It's funny seeing people just jump to conclusions here. This guy is talking about an XBOX LIVE ARCADE game. That title needs to be changed...well...I guess it won't be considering the morons that run this site.

Also don't give excuses Meus. You know what you were doing.

[THE TERMINATOR]

He is talking about the Xbox 360 in general.

[n00bPwner]

who?

[running rampid]

didn't think so. User who posted this article: Meuss Reneissance. sorry dude but from comments i've read of yours in other posts: you are very anti-xbox.

[DJ]

Meus constructively criticizes both platforms fairly equally, and is definitely one of the most unbiased members of this site. Maybe you just look at the 360 articles? 'Cause he's been pretty harsh on the PS3 lately, and rightly so.

[psycho360]

Why does every article gets distorted by fanboys of the opposing side regardless what the actual article was all about? Use common sense and read the damn article before making idiotic statements. More so by ps3 camp. They are jumping at every article positive or slightly negative and turning it into doom story for 360.

This is getting way out of hand. Pls admns more moderation is required in gamer zone. Irresponsible comments without reading the actual articles should not be allowed. Every one posting out of topic comments should be banned for sometime. Then only we'll get back to what n4g was 1+ year ago. All rants and fanboy fights should be kept in open zone.

[hotshot127]

man 360 fanboys are so damn ignorant. no sh!t the ps3 was going to be behind in graphics for the 07 games when devs CLEARLY STATED they were'nt used to the architecture of it. so then why do all EXCLUSIVE GAMES( games that take advantage of the ps3) look better then 360 games.

so you're telling me that the ps3 can run a game like killzone 2 but it can't run a game like madden? hahahah don't make me laugh..........whoops too late.

and i still haven't seen a game on the 360 that looks better then uncharted...............let alone mgs4 and killzone 2.

i think i'm starting to understand you 360 fankids logic. you guys only know what you're eyes see. nothing more. so i guess i should'nt be surprised.....................

[jones smokey]

gears of war 2 will be the max the 360 can do graphically, while killzone 2 will be what the ps3 is just starting to do i rember very clearly when a killzone and sony dev said that "with killzone 2 we are just beging to know how to work with the ps3 and see what the ps3 can do graphically and also because it has blue ray disc we can store more objects and textures in the game and we still have the 100g blue ray disc to come" while a sony dev said that developers are just beging to come to terms with the ps3 and with killzone 2 u will see what happenes when developers take their time to go deep inside the ps3 brain" the said that like 2 months ago,....all i am saying is that just imagine how ps3 games will look like 5 years from now or at the end of its life cycle,...no wonder they were rumors that ms is relasing a new x box, ..... gears of war 2 will be the climax of the 360, it is going to sell millions and after that WHATS NEXT!!!

[athlon770]

Gears of War 2 may not be the leap of visual perfection some people are trying to claim, but I do not think it is the top of the food chain. Gears is designed around one and only one kit, the Unreal Editor. This is where games are looking the same on the 360 because many of them use this very game engine. I don't think we have see all the 360 has to give, but I do think the developers need to take a step back and stop trying to push the boundries of an engine that has reached its peak. It is time to design a new game engine from the ground up. I do agree with you however that we have yet to see what the PS3 can do. Developers are still designing their own engines and tweaking the ones they currently have to bring out something new. This is to be expected. We just need to get all these developers off the Unreal Engine so the 360 can WOW us again!

[Kratos_1986]

360 ahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa aaaa man that was funny :~D

[LevDog]

"Knock Knock" "Who's There?" " Xbox 360" "Xbox 360 who?" .....................

Opps sorry the 360 RROD.... couldn't finish the joke

[n00bPwner]

knock knock. who's there. sony has no games.

[LevDog]

I cant believe your still using that excuse.. PS 360 has no games in 08

[Surfman]

knock knock, who's there? *silence* Whos there? *silence*. The 360 was there.

[PoSTedUP]

maybe xbox gonna start coming out with more games like banjo

[rebirthofcaos]

let the "RROD 180 garbage box fix me before it burns my house down"

im somewhat tired of making fun of the Xbot but lets face this it doesnt get old XD XD XD

I mean who is with brain should buy something with 33% of die

WHO? WHO?
Because i will never buy something as faulty

[tehReaper]

RROD? That's pretty old, broseph. But, if it makes you feel better about your PS3 purchase, so be it.

In response to the article.

In my honest and unbiased opinion: The PS3 and Xbox 360 are close to equal in graphics.

The two differences in favor for the PS3:

1. Sony had more time to produce a slightly better console because of its' extra year.

2. The PS3 can produce sweet effects(not better graphics), the 360 can't. Maybe in time the PS3 could blow away 360 games, but it won't happen this soon in it's life.

Just my experience owning both.

I prefer the 360 over the PS3, although different people have different preferences.

[mcnablejr]

i admired the online features and simplicity of the 360 for a while, i even considered buying one instead of a ps3, when hd films were being made but when that failed, the 360... the 360 did a 360,turned right round and into a meltdown machine.
i want people to list 360 good features:
and others to list good ps3 features:

hope this comment doesnt sprout too many others, keep em simple =)

GO!

[joeynox]

he wasnt speaking of a graphical limit due t o the 360 but as a industry whole.People really need to pay attention and stop bashing a hardware platform that stands toe to toe with the rival in graphical terms. Once again another article on this junk and people bash the 360. i thought that was for the other section

[GUNS N SWORDS]

people like epic and 2k strive hard to put these accusations as just peoples opinions, and that their is still more to improve upon.

cliffy B is one of them.

[Rageanitus]

ITs funny how ppl say gears of war 2 is the next level of grahics, yet gears of war 1 on pc is already doing the same if not better than what ive seen on gears of war 2 (graphically).... plus to top that its much higher res.

[GUNS N SWORDS]

and gears of war 2's brumak along with all the weapons got face lift, plus gear2 is noticeably shaper than the first game.

http://www.gamersyde.com/ne...

and it's good that gears of war 1 looks good because anyone who will be getting gears 2 and never played the fist game can go back without feeling like it's a chore, like playing DMC 1,2,3 on the ps2, and then finally playing DMC4.

[AngryTypingGuy]

I think he was talking about XBLA games first of all, and second, he never said that the 360 is hitting the graphical limit. Saying "I think we've really pushed where we can go graphically" is not saying that it's reached its limit.

This gen will never look like you're "playing a movie", but the graphics will improve some. I don't know how far graphics can be pushed past the likes of Gears 2, KZ2, and RE5 though, at least with this generation of hardware. I think the next gen will look pretty close to real life and then the gen after that will look like you're playing a movie. I'm just guessing though, who knows.

[DFresh]

To be honest graphics are a combination of processing power and a well built engine.
I don't think we will see the limitations of any console until the end of this gen towards the PS4 and Xbox 720 era starting in 2016.
As long as people keep using and creating new engines and making better processors I don't think graphics will ever stop getting better.
The only thing I'm going to say is that to unleash more you will need more space on your game discs this is where PS3 has it big 50GB on Blu-ray disc w/ PS3 Technology is a complete package.
Make new engines, create bigger space for game discs, and improve the processing power and you'll have a complete package.
This is why the PS3 is future proof and the 360 isn't.
PS3 FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tehReaper]

I see your point. But see, 2016 is where you're wrong. Maybe for the PS4, but 720 will be out before that.

In all honesty, Microsoft needs a fresh start with hardware. I believe that they will deliver a great product(720) as reliable as hookers in a GTA game.

Here's the thing. When 720 is released, the PS3 will still be around and just starting to use it's power to the max(developers will pick up new tricks along the way, being prepared for 720). That's bad. It's future proof, so there won't be need for new hardware for Sony. 720 will have it beat in power and hardware. Technology advances, my friend.

[Matpan]

"I think we've really pushed where we can go graphically, I think realism is losing some of the luster - I would love to see some work done on what we call "non-photo realistic rendering", paint-related techniques, we do things you can do in movies but I'm more interested in what you can't do in movies"

Ok... just don´t listen to the podcast if you don´t want to... but at least READ the excerpts!!! not just the titles!!! COME ON!!!

He is saying that realism is loosing the fun of it... that games should go in other directions... that game devs are doing things movies already can.. and so on... He is, in general terms... speaking of art direction and general ideas about game development and how just a bit of the bar is being pushed while the rest, in his opinion, is being somehow left behind (A.I., animation, physics... and so on).

Oh.. and he is a live arcade dev... and just one person... one opinion... anyways... I cannot listen to the podcast here at work, but as far as this excerpts go heis never sayin "xbo360 reached it´s graphical limits" Which I assume is the exact part that person would have pasted from the podcast after such a misleading title, had there been such a part...

Totally misleading title, a real waste of good opinion from a dev to turn people into discussing about the never ending debate of which console is better.

Too sad. No one really having an opinion on the words of this developer... and sadly this happens on almost EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE here. Every single news is used as a base from where to try and prove this or that console is better than the other, rather than generate a debate on what some articles (the interesting ones, of course, I´m not referring to the typical: Graphic comparisson vid article)

[trevscofield]

Wow you Fanboys are out of control!!!

He is not talking about the Xbox360 (that was Major's statement in the question) he is REFERRING to where the industry AS A WHOLE is at the moment that means the PS3 as well. What he is saying is "AS AN INDUSTRY we ARE MAXED OUT ON PHOTO-REALISM"...

Wow you people are incredible, I own all 3 consoles and all 3 have their plus and minus attributes. Stop trying to justify your console purchase by slamming someone else's. What a bunch of children!

Do you think Microsoft, or Sony, or Nintendo give a crap about anything other than your wallet? So stop your blind defense of multi-national corporations that do nothing for you other than take more money from you than they should!

[SnakeShady]

you talk about wallet but you own all console in the market.

[Vip3r]

The major said:

"specifically for the Xbox 360"

when he asked the question and the dev was talking about the 360 and not the PS3. He did't mention anything about the industry as a whole so read what it says next time.

[Daytona]

He was referring to life like games in general and not the Xbox 360 platform. He was saying gaming visuals have advanced too far and wants to see physics and other area's play catch up. Whew someone thows a sony dog a bone it salivates like pavloves dog. Sad wittle fan boys.

[reccodog]

If I recall a while back, You Xbots were bashing our console. So its our turn. So *SHUT UP!* and take it up the air vent!

[reccodog]

Man this zone is on fire! Just like a 360 when you first buy it!
This is amazing! I have been trying to say this forever! The 360 is done!

[air1]

it's crazy how all of the sudden everyone is a graphics whore. i mean last gen the ps2 was sh*t compared to the xbox graphics but no one cared about it then. all ppl wanted was good games, great stories, awsome shoot out's, epic boss battles.

now ppl even down talk games like gears of war. why? i wish i knew.. i mean if you dont like the console fine but why hate the game? that won goty. so what if the gears 2 graphics doesnt wow you like the first. name me a game that ever revalutionized graphics for a second time on a sequal. than, to compare it to kz2! wtf? yea the graphcis look sick but was it just me that noticed how the bad guys was not shooting back much? i dont know about you guy's but i would take a graphics boost of a 1.5 with sick game play and really good ai, over the badest graphics but a limp as* gameplay.

the 360 has an awsome library TODAY and that library is gana keep on growing. wil they look better than ps3 games maybe, maybe not. im happy with the graphics my 360 can do. just give me more triple A games with good gameplay and im set till the next box.. lets not forget microsoft deliverd the first next gen game whe sony said it wouldnt start till they said so. as of TODAY sony is still fixing that flat at the start line when it come to games..

you guy's waited over a year to get a triple A game (mgs4)but yet complain about rrod and a 2 week wait.. the irony i swear..

[Rocko]

Too bad its about XBLA GAMES. Learn to read dumbf*cks.

[Xlll]

Listen to the podcast fata$$ hes talking about 360 as a whole. Even if he was talking about XBLA games that would be even funnier if thats all the 360 could handle. Your console his hit its limits end of story.

[Rocko]

People as f**king stupid as you shouldn't be allowed to breed. Go cry somewhere else, not my fault you bought a $600 movie player.

[Xlll]

At least my console backed the winner. Clean your ears out and get a better understanding of english then go back and listen to the cast. You dumb inbreed.

[Rocko]

Telling me to better understand English when you type a bunch a gibberish, the irony.

[Xlll]

gibberish? Everything you say is made up xbot bullsh!t. You can't even handle that your console is maxed. How sad it is for you to have to live you your little dream world where the 3fixme still has something left.

[buddyro]

that said game play over graphics if you believe that for one second then why don't you get a wii. It's called denial.

[SnakeShady]

Ps3 is already better than 360 in terms of graphic and its in the early state of developement.

[Spydiggity]

that doesn't make sense. take your fanboy nonsense elsewhere.

the playstation is not in early development. It's been developed. you obviously own one. it sits in many ppl's living rooms and bedrooms. people can pretend all day that the playstation has some trick up its sleeve and by the 3rd or 4th generation of software, the graphics are going to be so amazing you won't want to even look at real life anymore...

WRONG! Both systems are about equal in power. One has a better processor, the other has a better graphics card. The systems are a wash. The only difference is the blu-ray. and while extra storage is nice, having to install games on a console just to avoid 5 minute load times is pretty ridiculous.

I'd happily buy a ps3 if they'd just get some games worth playing. But until then, the xbox is doing the 3rd party games just as well (if not better) and by the end of this generation, the games are STILL going to look the same on both systems.

[PSWe60]

360 developers already hitting the limit?
That's not surprising.

[BubblesDAVERAGE]

Games still look gorgeous and still look better the a lot of ps3 games....on average multi platform games

[Agent VX]

Yawn, just another miss leading title. The 360 has lots of power left.

The PS3, in it's 2nd year, and the titles look rather bland. The GT series is looking pretty boring, the game is scoring decent, but nothing to write home about. So much for that "Highly Anticipated" tile. Metal Gear Solid, again, a niche game, it will be "OK" for a while and then collect dust like the rest. Final Fantasy series, wow....so old. There is absolutely nothing new for the PS3 this year besides a few titles.

Then there is the problem of the performance of the PS3, absolutely horrid from what Sony said it would do. It can't even beat the 360 on most multiplat titles. Really, the PS3 is a HUGE disappointment. Just look at how many loyal fans they have already lost. Top that with a console 3/4 of a decade old outselling Sony flagship console by some 4 million last year.....pathetic.

[Spydiggity]

it's sad, but it seems like the more common sense you have and the more facts you use, the more 'disagrees' you get on this website. PS3 fanboys are so jealous of 360 owners for actually have exclusive titles worth playing that they will go around on any forum anywhere just to make fun of them. are PS3 players (using the term loosely cuz you need games to play) so desperate for something to do that you need to go around trying to guilt happy 360 owners into buying your choice of system? can't you just go play one of the games the 360 owners also have on your inferior online network and pretend to be content? It's pretty apparent that ps3 owners are just jealous because they made the wrong choice this time around.

YES the ps2 was more successful. NO it was not the better system. and while you were all criticizing xbox without even owning it, the xbox owners realized it was a much better system so they supported the 360. Now they have the better package and you can't stand it. It eats you all up inside. 600 dollars and not even an HDMI cable...been out for a year and a half and still no titles to brag about...come on guys. get over it. just join the rest of the 360 owners and just enjoy yourselves. sony had a good run with ps1 and 2, but they blew it with 3 and you will have to come to terms with it eventually.

oh...and for you fanboys that are going to throw RRoD in our face. Keep this in mind... 360s get worn out cuz they are played all the time by us, we have a ton of fun games to play, and we are kept entertained for hours. We might have discovered that Playstation 3's had huge failure rates...unfortunately, it's hard to know if a system fails if you never actually play it. I'm pretty sure paper weights don't even need to be plugged in to do their job.

[Xbox is the BEST]

3 Power PC cores running at 3.2 Ghz each and no game uses 2 cores yet it's safe to say that the 360 has not reached it's graphical limits.

[ShiftyLookingCow]

Well maybe this is fanboyish but my reaction: This is the same kind of retarded spinning of developer comments as the one with Kojima remarks about being "disappointed with PS3". I thought it was common knowledge that gamers this gen are more interested in more story, presentation style and refined gameplay than in just pure graphics.

[sandip787]

now then, is this title misleading? coz i think hes talking about XBLA games, not games as a whole

[W S K]

OH MY GOD!!! IT IS SO SAD WHAT PEOPLE ARE TROLLING AROUND HERE!!!
OK...i must admitt...the title is a little bit misleading BUT IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PODCAST (or read the update text thats now there)you would actually understand that he is talking about how graphics are getting more attention in games than animation and A.I. He is saying that the world in that you are playing must get more realistic so that you really believe you´re in there (the same thing Peter Molyneux said with "Alan Wake") and that is for Real!!!...its the same thing that i always thought about the sound in a game (now they pay more attention to that but sometimes still not enough...for my taste)...A game is like a fusion of Graphics, Sound, A.I and animation...and all should recieve equal attention (in my eyes). A game just dont feels right when GFX are good but the sound is awfull and so on...

[Spydiggity]

You know this generation, in terms of graphics, has been defined almost entirely by the Unreal Engine 3. And this developer is probably right...sort of. That engine has seen its graphical peak. And i think it's pretty sad that instead of more companies developing their own engines and creating competition for the UE3, they just paid Epic money to use the development tools.

I don't think we've seen the peak of graphical capability...i just think developers need to work on their own design programs and test new waters and think up new tricks.

This generation has gotten stale because every other game uses that engine.

Gears of war is a great game, and bioshock is a great game. and there are a few others that use that engine that deserve a lot of credit, but there are so many rent-quality or less games that run on that engine too. and my eyes are so used to looking at this engine, that i now just see flaws everywhere, i don't even notice the quality. The only way to stimulate the eyes of ppl who play video games is by giving them something new to look at.

With that said, this has been a pretty great generation for gaming, some very innovative ideas have come out of a lot of companies this time around. But i don't think ppl should not get their hopes up that they've already seen the best quality they are going to see. It CAN improve, as long as we move on from the Unreal Engine 3.

[zonetrooper5]

I like trolling people in the open zone, its so much fun. ^__^

Also the PC's can ray trace if thats important to you, you can get blu-ray drives for the PC if needed. You can download free demos on the 360, PS3, Wii and PC etc.

[mcnablejr]

360 owners writing small essays to defend their console. do not try and deny it thats what it says.

[mcnablejr]

achievements.. coming to ps3 not that im bothered
bioshock... coming to ps3
mass effect 2.. wont be exclusive
in game chat.. coming to ps3
free online play.. oh wait
a good lifespan.. haha what a joke
good exclusives.. all i can think of is halo 3 dont go saying gears because its on pc.. haha rhymes.