DVD size limiting Project Gotham Racing 4

According to a developer over at the official Project Gotham 4 Racing forums, they are having problems Fitting all the data of the tracks which was unveiled at today into the game.

He writes :

"You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD."

[TriggerHappy]

this is going to be epic. *runs to a corner and puts on anti-fanboy shield*

[ReconHope]

What is your shield made of? lol

[Azures]

Its made of blu-ray discs, they can deflect 5x the flame of a DVD 9...and the reinforced multi-layer blu-ray shields...wow thats a lot of flame protection!

[uxo22]

This is EXACTLY what downloadable content is for, especially for people with the Elite systems with 120g of HD space. It's not like they not going to release all kinds of crap in xbox live marketplace for PGR4 anyway.

EDIT: @sonarus (Below) Come on dude, I don't know about you but I don't play 25 games at the same time. And in most case as with most people, after they have beaten a game once or twice, they put the disc away never to be played again. (in most cases). You act as if people would let their HD fill with downloadable content for games that they are no longer going to play. (be fa real)

It doesn't matter anyway, people will disagree with you in most cases on this site without giving any thought to a point of view that doesn't match their own. I never said that downloadable content was the best option, I only said it could be used. Also remember, all games DON'T require 25-50 gig. So, please don't take this issue to the extremes.

[sonarus]

wat do you mean this is what downloadable content is for. Thats not what its supposed to be for. DVD-9 cannot be sufficient for the entire generation so you want them to take advantage of downloabale content to balance it out. This is only the begining 2nd yr for the 360 i wonder how many games we will see having problems with size. Oh well dual disks is always an option

@nigglet
Confirmed by an unknown source that dosent work for kojima. I am sorry but i will take kojima's word over your OXM anyday. You can be a blind fanboy all you want and thats ok. Multidisks are cool and its funny you mention scratched disks considering 360 disks are easier to scratch and in fact the 360 even gives you a hand with that. LOL. I mean how hard is it for you to accept. You can never go wrong with extra space you can continue with your downloadable content after downloadable content till you essentially run out of hard drive space. PGR will be a great game because i am sure the developers will get around the lack of space but denying the lack of space in dvd-9 to be an issue is just blind fanboyism

[Nigglet]

No, they will always be insecure about the memory gimped PS3. Gran tourismo was on 2 discs on the playstation you pathetic retards. If they thought it was really hurting or restricting the game they would use 2 discs also. But it is not that big of a deal to them, so it is not a big deal. You sony idiots look pathetic everytime you bring this up because there will NEVER be an advantage to blu-ray because of compression technology and...use 2 discs or..download content. If you want more storage on blur-ray they go further and further towards the surface making it easier and easier to scratch, good luck with that, I'd rather have two safe discs or download content.
And the retards below me, people say you don't need a new format because you don't, what dumb post, and the guy below him is even worse, FF games were mostly on 4 discs you ignorant ars. You people...just funny. I know these people will drift as replies are made their ignorance remains.
By the way, MGS 4 is no longer PS3 exclusive, it is reported in the Official Xbox magazine August issue on page 88 that the port is being done by a different team of course since the one guy quit, but the xbox 360 version will come out a few months after the PS3 :)
LOL at dui, you better change your post before people ralize how retarded you are, gran tourismo was on 2 discs anyone who played it knows, 1 for sim mode and 1 for multiplayer. Now who is retarded?
And anyone who read August xbox mag knows MGS is coming to xbox, owned again. You will have me laughing to myself all day.

[D_U_I]

Go back to school.

1. How the hell did i get owned, simple mistake.... assface
2. MGS4 is ps3 exclusive, when Metal gear comes to xbox i will become GOD... Its not going to happen, so take your 180 and tears of war and go rub your wet**************** sorry i'm a gamer not a f@g.

Cheers.

[NTSC-J]

Gran Turismo 2 came with two discs. One disc for Simulation mode and One disc for arcade mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[SmokeyMcBear]

damn whats with the racist names up on here lately, nigglet, change your name.

And yes GT has been on 2 discs, I believe they were CDs

[KingME]

If you have the core of the game on a DVD9 disk and you are running out of space for thinks like additional tracks and other stuff not pertinent to playing the game. Why can't you use downloadable content, wasn't shivering Ilse downloadable for the 360? I mean disagree all you want, but it would be nice if people disagreed when it makes sense. But, how can you say tracks and other content can not being added to a game through downloadable content.

Everybody in the world don't have to jump on the blu-ray hddvd train. Stop hatin' !

[gaffyh]

You'd think that PGR would move over to PS3 if this was a problem, but it won't because it will have too much competition from GT, it already has competition from Forza, but GT looks much better than both of them and moving over would pretty much be suicide. I guess this story kinda proves a larger capacity format was required, a little bit.

This story is a big flame bait.

[GRRiMREEAPeR]

speaking of racist sns urs needs to be changed too...

[hazeblaze]

You're so dumb. If that was the case than compressed files on cd-roms should have been good enough instead of advancing forward to dvd's.

And obviously compression techniques ARE NOT good enough for them to get this data onto the dvd9's or else they would not have made any comment on it.

Devs are greater than you. And the majority have already commented on the superiority of blu ray vs. dvd's as a format.

[rareairtone]

Last generation i purchased a ps2 before my xbox. in fact i fell in love with the xbox because of the better graphics and i liked the controller. i purchased the 360 because i wanted a next gen console fast and i couldn afford the ps3 (i do have the premium 360). now i dont think its unfortunate that i purchased it me encanta the 360 i really thot it was dumb that there was an option for a 360 purchase without a hard drive. just like microsoft misperceived (if that's a real word) that this generation was fine with dvd software for video games they miscalculated making a 360 available without a hard drive.

if there wont be a firmware update for the 360 (im a noob when it comes to computers i dont know if we can download something to allow a higher storage dvd to be able to be read) it seems this generation the first console i bought does not have the capability of producing the better graphics of the 3 at this time.

i wonder how microsoft is going to feel about their gameplan next year when by that time developers are going to be more used to making ps3 games? i remember when multiplatform games of last generation came out--the ps2 version was inferior to the xbox version in terms of graphics. what will make the developers change this generation? sympathy? because the 360 is easier to develope for? i love the 360 in fact, but microsoft put their heads in the gallows with a slowly descending guillotine when they released the 360 almost 2 years ago...

[Covenant]

Common sense, reason, intelligent discourse...

...and naked women. Fanboys wouldn't know what to do with any of those.

[Staircase]

"By the way, MGS 4 is no longer PS3 exclusive, it is reported in the Official Xbox magazine August issue on page 88 that the port is being done by a different team of course since the one guy quit, but the xbox 360 version will come out a few months after the PS3 :)
LOL at dui, you better change your post before people ralize how retarded you are, gran tourismo was on 2 discs anyone who played it knows, 1 for sim mode and 1 for multiplayer. Now who is retarded?
And anyone who read August xbox mag knows MGS is coming to xbox, owned again. You will have me laughing to myself all day."

Metal Gear Solid 4 is currently exclusive, and I am confident it will stay exclusive. They have made numerous articles on why it will stay exclusive, and all you are going on right now is a extremely small section of a magazine that is based on rumors alone. If it does go multiplatform, good for it. More people will get to experience the greatness of the Metal Gear Saga. However, you have no right to call someone a "Retard" because you think it will be on the 360.

"since the one guy quit"

. . .

[TriggerHippie]

And people say we don't need a next gen storage format...

[Marceles]

SNES catridges *cough* FF7 can't fit *cough cough* move it to Playstation *cough sneeze*, sorry...getting a little cold in here

[Syko]

In fairness FF7 didn't fit on Playstation either. It was a 3 disc game. Still a classic.

I wonder if it would have been on 1 disc if it would have been even better???

Edit @2.4
While I see where your logic is going, You are really nitpicking and grasping at straws now. It in no way would have changed FF7 if it was on one disc or on 10 discs. While it is nice to have it on one disc it is not the end of the world to have two or more discs. Next gen it could be "necessary", just not now. While I do think it will be "used" this gen, I think "necessary" is a little to strong of a word IMO.

[Marceles]

I'm just thinking...what if they had multi-cartridge games lol? But also cartridges couldn't stream FMVs.

[strongbad1441]

while it was indeed a great game, ff7 would have been better on a single disc. with multiple discs, there is a higher chance of getting one scratched. and a single disc out of a set of three will not be as easy to replace as a disc that contains the whole game.

[SlappyMcTaint]

Denial is a beyotch ain't it?! The "not enough space on DVD9" stories are starting to come up more often now and all you can do is bring up old PS2 games. NICE! Perfect little xbots, distracting from the actual topic at hand by bashing the PSx any and every way you can.

How many discs is Blue Dragon on again?

[BubblesDAVERAGE]

They will be recanting this statement in a few seconds...you know MS got there fanboys believing that more space isn't needed...the question is IF there is a chance for more space why not use it?

Just more space who cares if its blu ray or HdDvd either way Ms would have been better off with either..or a standard HDD

[360Sheep]

So it begins......

oh wait nevermind, already happened with Blue Dragon

[tehcellownu]

Blue Dragon doesnt even look that great either and takes up 3 disks!! lol. The demos sucks big time i didnt enjoy it at all..

[gEnKiE]

3 disks???? holy crap! haha

[Nemesis]

posted in wrong place.

[marionz]

people get so worked up over nothing, i like the fact blue dragon is on three discs, kinda makes it feel more epic
at the end of the day i dont care how many discs the game is on, its not like the old amiga 500 days where you had to insert disc one load....five minuites later insert disc three....five minuits later insert disc two....
i mean have you seen the graphics in pgr4! man they are awesome the rain and weather effects on the car are the best ive ever seen!
if you think back to the ps1 days i kinda wonder how that console ever did so well though, the graphics where awefull, i didnt care bout the fact the games were usually on more then one disc but the graphics where nasty
thats why i played zelda etc on cart, point is there is all sorts of storage media out there so whats the point of complaining about it if your getting good games?

[D_U_I]

Well s*it happens, live with it.

[Itachi]

i kinda feel sorry for them when you here kojima asking for 50gb blu-ray in mid 2006

they must been under a lot of pressure to fit content in the disc other wise it could damage the series just like forza2 if no improvments have been made

[AllroundGamer]

can you hear the fanboys crying? "the developer is lying again!!!" :D

[Eidolon]

:P

[ThaGeNeCySt]

LMAO right.

[vidoardes]

Unfortunatly this article will quickly turn into a fanboy flame war, but it does bring up a valid point. This game is only a 2nd/3rd Gen game for the 360, and it's not the first to show problems due to disc space. Gears Of Wars is a great game, and arguably still one of the best looking games currently availible, but it has always been crtisised for beign too short. Considering this console is still fairly new (relativly speaking) is this something we are gonna see more and more of? Are these problems gonna be fixed by 'expensive downloadable extras'? Let's hope not, for the sakes of anyone who owns a 360.

EDIT: Haha, I knew it, 2 disagrees and no explanation as to why. Have some balls and actually say what part you disagree with, don't just hit it because you precious console is under fire. Grow up for f**ks sakes.

[Azures]

Gears of War is impressive but its also a cloak and dagger game. While it looks and plays well, the game was no doubt limited due to the 360; Either it be from the available rendering of many character models or lack of space to extend single or multi player content.

[i Shank u]

yea Gears is so limited on 360. that must be why when it is re-released on PC, it will be released on 'gasp' a DVD 9! with imrpved grphx, more levels, a level editor, etc. and its NOT ON BLU RAY you fantard

i will say that from the get go, PS1 games with length had to be on multiple discs, and people still bought it up, so why does this matter to you all?

[Azures]

Probably 2 DVD9s :)

[DJ]

Standard DVDs (used for PC games, movies, etc) hold the full 8.5 GB. Besides, Gears is actually a little under 7GB. That’s enough space for extra levels, a level editor, and higher-res textures/overhauled textures.

*In case you’re wondering, the last 600MB of Xbox 360 DVDs are blocked off due to security reasons (300MB per layer). Xbox and PS2 DVDs did the same thing.

[The Wood]

the fact the pc version had a hdd to write to

[ud]

we all saw this coming ;)

[RadientFlux]

oh well every system has it's limitations, one of jobs of the developer is to deal with it

[Azures]

Next they'll be telling us they need a hdd to get things done...oh wait...

lol.

[supaet]

it's half the price of the ps3 at 249.99

of course it's limiting...why does the ps3 share the same multiplatform games with the 360 then?

that means the limitation doesn't matter....

[Imalwaysright]

Hmm maybe because they are built around 360 hardware??

[BIadestarX]

If it does not fit in 1 disk... then make it in 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,....
Do I care? Nope... I didnt care when Final Fantasy 7 came in 4 Disks, or Metal Gear. I have to many games to worry about having to change the 1st disk after 20-30 hours of gameplay, since I usually can't play a single game more than 2 hours before I switch to another...

I never understood the big deal about this.... mmm... fanboys making a big deal about this... don't have a problem, getting up to switch their game multiple times... yet they have a problem having a game in multiple disks.

Ofcourse having extra space is a great thing... but that does not guarantee the game will be good. But I would see the big deal.. only if all games would come in a single blu-ray disk and I don't have to switch games ever.... mmm.. sounds like a problem only digital distribution and a big harddrive can fix.

EDIT
@LostProphet - You gave some very valid/great points... "You can't switch discs halfway through an arcade racer, or you'd never be able to play all cars on all tracks"... I can't argue against that... I guess this is an example of a technical limitation developers will have to work on. Also, let's not forget that they can simply make ship this content on another disk and call it, "Dawn Racer". Developers don't have to ask to "Insert Disk ?" while people are turning around the corner. They can partition the game in a logical way.
Usually this kind of technical limitations push developers to find ways to figure out alternatives... (Ofcourse there's always the posibility that they will cut content...).
It's understandable why this game is so big.. it has many features non-existant even on PS3 games like motorstorm that have the extra space.... like dynamic weather...

[Azures]

Some games can't go multiple discs without being insanely annoying, an arcade racing sim is probably one of them.

[Vertius]

This brings up a point that's rarely mentioned. If there is difficulty fitting the data on one DVD, they may simply omit the data completely, as seen here with the day-night textures. That means future games may lose features because of the developer's unwillingness to make it on many discs, and, as said above, switching discs in some genres is abhorrent.

[Nigther]

Final Fantasy VII comes on 3 CDs.

Update: What kind of idiot would disagree with this?

[vidoardes]

This is exactally what worries me aswell. I for one couldn't care about switching discs halfway through a game, Final Fantasy and Metal Gear are by far my two favorite PS1 games. The problem is it doesn't work for some genres.

You can't switch discs halfway through an arcade racer, or you'd never be able to play all cars on all tracks, or one disc would have all the tuning options. It just wouldn't work.

Fighting games are the same, you couldn't have some fighters on one disc and some on another, or some venues on one and some on another.

In fact, the only games that would work with multiple discs is a game with a linear story i.e an RPG. In reality, developers may have to start cutting corners, such as removing textures for night races perhaps?

[XxZxX]

Options that I can thing of
#1 well do what PC did all the time, install in Hard disk. but the problem is most user XBOX 360 hard disk is 20gb. Install a few of them, and u need to buy the 120gb version, it will also force core users to buy a hard disk.

#2 put a special version on XBOX 360 HD-DVD. HD-DVD drive is on usb. It will be slow loading if used.

[Premonition]

Its really sad when someone has to find anything to stand up for DVD-9, I mean really what part of technology dont you understand, the fact that we need to upgrade almost every part? Cause no one in their right minds would want to change out up 5-8 discs, unless they are in the biggest denile in the world. You will defend this system till you get hit in the head with one right? I had a buddy just like you who would get his xbox360 repaired about 50 times no matter what, even if it burnt down his house he would purchase another one in a heart beat, its kinda like when a female just keeps taking it from the guy till she dies, she keeps saying "oh hes going to change hes going to change" and everyone knows how that ends. You really need to change your ways and stop making stupid statements to defend your system.

[nurayi]

sure, there were some stellar multiple disk games on PS1. but do we really want to take a step backwards two generations? last generation multi-disk gaming was being phased out. it should be history by now.

"I never understood the big deal about this.... mmm... fanboys making a big deal about this... don't have a problem, getting up to switch their game multiple times... yet they have a problem having a game in multiple disks."

name-calling aside.. there is the simple reason is that when you have to keep track of 2-4 disks then sometimes you may end up with a lost disk or an unplayable one. I personally haven't had much problem with this (though I did lose the last disk for doom3 on my PC...still don't know how that happened) there are a lot of people who aren't ultra-careful with their disks. I could count 5 people I know that just put disks in whatever case is handy when they are switching games, and don't keep their stuff organized. There are plenty of reasons why multi-disk gaming is not a good thing, and I think that they are rather easy to decipher.

[Lumbo]

" #2 put a special version on XBOX 360 HD-DVD. HD-DVD drive is on usb. It will be slow loading if used."

The 12x DVD drive of the 360 can read SINGLE layer disks at 15MB/sec on the outer rim of the medium, DUAL layer medias are read with 9MB/sec maximun. USB 2.0 as used by the xbox360 can transfer 400mbit/sec thats ~40MB/sec.

Could you elaborate how using an USB drive would slow down the loading times of the DVD drive when USB is faster than the build in drive ?

The whole point is mood though, cause as with the disastrous decision to offer 360 SKUs without a harddrive, using the external HD-DVD drive is also not an option, cause it is not standard over the whole system.

I still fail to understand why MS offered the core without a minimal HDD. I mean MS where the ones to enter HDDs to consoles with the xBox1, and every xbox1 had at least a minimal HDD. It was even praised for having an HDD in every SKU. It doesn't even make sense from a pricepoint, cause the minimal 20gig HDDs couldn't have cost more than $15 on the gross market in 2005 when 100gig+ drives where the normal size sold at $60.

On the multidisk issue: yes, the only genres that may use multidisks are Adventures and rpgs. GTA, NFS and sportsgames would suxx horribly with constant disk changing. But whats done is done. Devs will most likely rather cut out content to fit everything on a single disk, than taking the hassle to synch it to two.

[knoxin]

i see what everu one say but new compression techs will solve this very quickly, plus ms wants this game out this year, it seems like there not putting it in for sales sakes,

if you look on the xbox.com forums you can see there is a huge thread about this and the simple answer is size does not matter,

50 gig sony disc haha yeah but he asked for that becuase he doubling or triple the game data over because blu ray is 2Xspeed its to stop long long loads,

[CrazzyMan]

1x blu ray read speed= 36 mbps
the playstation has 2x blu ray read speed so: 72mbps

1x dvd read speed= 11,08 mbps
the xbox has a read speed of 16x for sinle layered dvds and 8x for double layered dvds, so:
single layered=16x11,08= 117,28 mbps

double layered=8x11,08= 88,64mbps

[Bleyd]

Aren't most 360 games double layered and doesn't that mean that the 360 really only reads most of its games at 8x?

[CrazzyMan]

atleast ps3 don`t have problems with storage... :)

the club is multiplatform game.. =] it would be nice to see a PGR version without limits of storage. =]

p.s. so.. 1 dvd is still enough for nextgen gaming? =))

[Rageanitus]

2+ discs per a game.... nothing really wrong with that
But it will get annoying swtiching discs..

Multi discs only really work for pc gaming, because you can install everything on a large hard disc... while the xbox 360 does come mandatory with an HD.. This is a restriction that MS should have seen.

I mean ms has been in the pc gaming industry for a long time they should have screen this coming.

[Jeremy Gerard]

So put it on two disks, whats the big deal, i would rather have fast load times and a 200 dollar cheaper console price than a HDDVD, or bluray drive. I dont mind changing a disk every 50 hours, not nearly as much as I mind waiting on slow load times, every few minutes.

[Lumbo]

Nice how you fail to understand the core issue.
In a racing game its not every 50 hours, its more like every other track.

And when you try to be smart and try to make the 360 DVD9 drive look faster than the slow PS3 2x bluray drive, you should take in all facts before making yourself look like a moron...

360 DVD9 drive 12x max = 15MB/sec transfer rate for SINGLE layer dvd's = 4,5 gig disks.
DUAL layer 9GB disks are read at 8x = 10MB/sec speed. Additionally the max speed is only reached in the outermost area of the disk, Meaning that the real transfer speed of a dual layer xBox360 DVDROM is from 5x (6,5MB/s) in the inner area to 8x (10MB/s) in the outer area. Average readspeed is 8MB/sec due to the CAV tech used.

Readspeed over the whole 50 GB of the Bluray 2x drive in the PS3 is 9MB/sec, as BluRay drives use CRV so the readspeed is the same regardless where on the medium the data is.

result: on the now normal dual layer dvdroms for the 360 there is only a minimal advantage of speed compared to the Bluray drive of the ps3, and thats on initial load of the game. Level loading will most times be even a little slower on the 360 cause of the lower average transfer speed. Single layer 360 dvdroms on the other hand are always faster than the PS3 bluray drive, up to 50% faster on initial load even. But single layer games are getting less and less nowadays.

[knoxin]

in reaply to 10.1 gears was rushed and its only 6gig with no compression i think as well

[Bleyd]

that you think that Gears of War doesn't use any compression at all to fit into 6GB of space?

[FordGTGuy]

Seeing as we have already seen that when you make it into heavy clouds that it makes it almost dark as night anyway.

With all the other stuff they are putting in this game I could really give a crap about not having night.

[tehcellownu]

Thats why i hate multiplatform games the 360 is always limiting what the ps3 can really do..i bet you this wont be the last time we goin to hear about dvd size is limiting next gen games....

[Jeremy Gerard]

this isn't a multi platform game for one you idiot, and we could say the same about the PS3s @ss backwards cell chip, it being so hard to develope for is holding back what developers can do as well because they know they may not be able to do the same for the PS3 version of a given game.

@ Bleyd Two disks! there, I just surmounted it

[Bleyd]

that the Cell processor being a pain to develop for is a surmountable problem and will soon be less of a problem and more of a benefit. The limited amount of space on a DVD is not so surmountable and can never be considered a benefit to have less space.

@Jeremy, no you just made the problem bigger because now you have to have the game engine and all base content on both disks and now the gamers have to change disks to play different content. You just made the problem 2x as big.

[Blabbermouth]

Developers will learn to use the cell chip over time,they can only get better and better with this new technology. While with just having DVD9 your stuck with same storage that was pretty much used too its limits last generation. The only way Dev's can go, is add more dvd's if they expect the newer games to be better than current ones.

[natsfan7]

But couldn't the same be said for developers learning how to better use the compression technology???? Just a thought...

PS- Sorry for the bad spelling...

[ChibiSelz]

lol no blueray needed? huh cool
xbox cant be a nextgen console more then 1 cd is last last gen have fun with your multidisks xbotx but when one scratches guess what the other cd is no use lmao

Edit=Fordgtguy does it look like i give a furk about bubbles lol im not a little child is having one bubble gona stop me from posting ?

[FordGTGuy]

With one bubble.

[SofaKingReetodded]

takes bubbles from someone for stating their opinion only proves what an utter coward and tool he is for the whole world to see.

[Combat Survivor]

How can you comment on this story without forgetting the fact that all PC games used to fit onto one DVD, maximum! Even now, the maximum PC games take up is 2 DVD's (pretty much the same storage volume as a Double Layer DVD). Therefore, the question doesn't lie in the amount of storage, but in the capaibility and quality of each device's compression. In comparing, Bizarre has to compress their entire game. If any DVD-DL contained game is uncompressed, it wouldn't even fit onto a quad-layered BluRay Disc. Besides, you must evaluate not the volume of content that a game occupies, but the uncompressed volume!

Idiots keep on saying...this game uses 25GB, or this one 32GB...in reality, the XBox 360 games can do that, but Microsoft works its tail off in order to utilize DVD-DL and not require multi-disc games. The reason as to why Blue Dragon took up 2 discs was that its cut-scenes were uncompressed video...which takes up almost 8x more space! This is one reason why the Japanese companies were shying away from the XBox 360...the fact that uncompressed video would be incapable of fitting on the DVD-DL discs.

[Bleyd]

1. Unreal Tournament 2004
2. Unreal Tournament 2003
3. Doom3
4. Myst (pick a version any version)
and so on...

[Rageanitus]

Im a hardcore pc gamer, seen many games take over 9 gigs on my HD. There is this thing called installing of game files on your hd.. This is the reason why you still see pc games on mulple cd discs, because you only have to install once. Its annoying at first it only one time.

Consoles on the other hand they are a different beast, but the problem is xbox 360 does not require an HD and its constrained to a 9 gig disc.

Ps2 gives a bit more flexiblity with 50gb discs.

[Dr Pepper]

@ Rageanitus
Playstation 2 has 50 gb discs!? I think you mean PS3...

[Delive]

But I have no doubt this will still be a great game and sell some 360's. Not that I'm interested. No need to get an 360 yet. BUT I do know that Not having day/night tracks will NOT hinder this game. Shipping with 8 or less total tracks, that will though. A game like T Woods only having 12 courses was a problem from disk space, but not having night/day courses would not have mattered much.

[knoxin]

if you can be arsed http://forums.xbox.com/1418...

there is a long discusion on there massive and its a farse with both systems

[power091999]

"According to a a staff who is believed to be on the developing over at the official Project Gotham 4 Racing forums"

It is not official.

I find it very hard to believe they can add dynamic weather, but not dynamic lighting.

Not that DVD may be limiting, that is VERY possible.

Either way I would like something a bit more solid, before I form an opinion.

Either way this game looks like it's going to be pretty good.

[TLSBill]

He post said it was that they needed another set of textures for the difference. My guess is that the whether is lighting effects & smaller pieces and that makes it eaiser to get them on the disk.

I checked the board (linked through the story) and it does list "Ben" as a developer with almost 4000 posts, but couldn't check his profile without signing up. YMMV if you have an account there.

[MoonDust]

"As it stands, we've got the best of all options. We've got tonnes of cities, the best lighting effects we've ever done, and weather which dramatically changes the look of the cities too. And it all fits on one disc."

[riksweeney]

Well, they can one of three things:

1. Allow people to download the extra content (for a fee, obviously)
2. Spread it over multiple disks and get people to disk swap
3. Stick it on the PS3

[ThaGeNeCySt]

1. Maybe

2. No

3. No

[Rageanitus]

Who is an XBOX FANboy like nuts who knew nothing about technology started bashing sony because of the 2x Blu ray drive. He Stated it was way too slow. He based his argument because it was "2x"

Then I shut him up by saying a 48 x cd rom transferred data much slower than a 16 x dvd rom....

[FordGTGuy]

you have to install games on the PS3 to get normal(Xbox 360 normal) load times.

EDIT-
"at least you can install a game onto EVERY SINGLE PS3 EVER MADE"

at least you don't have to install a game onto EVERY SINGLE XBOX 360 EVER MADE TO GET GOOD LOAD TIMES.

@power091999

"Of course load times will be shorter for a DVD it holds less data, that needs to be transferred and processed."

Amount of data on a disc has nothing to do with load times. When your console reads a gaming disc it looks for the specific gaming data for what your doing in the game.(IE your in PGR4 with a Ford Mustang GT on Nurburgring in the snow so the disc is read in those following areas to find the information needed.)

"Besides it happened with any data transfer no matter what.

You can't say "360 load times".

Load times apply to everything. Thumb drive, HD, Floppy, CD, DVD, BR, HD-DVD."

I don't even get the point your trying to make here. I said Xbox 360 load times in reference of how long it takes the Xbox 360 to load a specific game(aka normal Xbox 360 load times).

"Your argument is irrelevant, and fan-boyish."

Your points are pointless and ignorant with no foundation to stand on.

How are my statements fanboyish when they are factual? In order to match the load times of an Xbox 360 to a PS3 you must install a certain amount of gaming Data from the PS3 Gaming disc onto the PS3 itself.

[360Sheep]

at least you can install a game onto EVERY SINGLE PS3 EVER MADE

[Vavoom]

Your opening line stated that your friend knew nothing about technology. Could that be why he made such an ignorant statement. Please tell me why you shared that?

[power091999]

@30.1

It's hard to compare a BR drive to DVD9.

Of course load times will be shorter for a DVD it holds less data, that needs to be transferred and processed.

Also is it really bad to load a game on to HD so that it improves speeds? Was this not one of the advantages to having consoles with HD's built in?

Besides it happened with any data transfer no matter what.

You can't say "360 load times".

Load times apply to everything. Thumb drive, HD, Floppy, CD, DVD, BR, HD-DVD.

When was the last time you accessed any data, and there was not even a ms of load time?

Your argument is irrelevant, and fan-boyish.

EDIT:

Your comment is fan-boyish because you bring up "360 load times" vs "PS3 load times" and how the PS3 just can't compare.

Yes DVD9 loads faster, but the PS3 installs on the HD to make up for this. I don't see an issue here, other that the issue you are trying to create.

BR takes longer to load equal amounts of data, but Sony is allowing for games to be loaded to HD to make up for the speed difference. I don't see how this is relevant if the actually process is being completing.

The whole point is to load a game, and play it. You want to play ANY game on ANY system and you have to wait for load times. What you are referring to is common on all systems.

It's like saying ... The Gameboy advance has 3second load times, so it's far superior to the CD/DVD based units.

That's how it's irrelevant, and fan-boyish.

EDIT 2: Final edit

“Amount of data on a disc has nothing to do with load times. When your console reads a gaming disc it looks for the specific gaming data for what your doing in the game.(IE your in PGR4 with a Ford Mustang GT on Nurburgring in the snow so the disc is read in those following areas to find the information needed.)”

OK. So you mean to tell me that seek times have no bearing on the amount of information that it has to SEEK through, and then process? It seems as though you have first hand experience writing code for consoles. This is very factual, and highly researched scientific knowledge that you seem to possess. It seems like its some sort of archive type database right? Similar to the one that Windows uses? You can tell Windows EXACTLY where you want it to browse to. That does not mean that it is going to load the info any quicker on a smaller hard drive. It still needs to “find” that info and load it through memory, and processor(s). So my idea is More Data = More Data to Seek through = More data to process = more time to load more data. I could be wrong though I am not a dev.

“Your points are pointless and ignorant with no foundation to stand on.”

Please by all means tell me how it’s ignorant, and pointless? It seems to me we are having a debate. Your lack of giving the PS3 a fair view is not ignorant? ….OK

No foundation? So I have no idea as to what the speeds are of different storage media, and how they relate to gaming? Please by all means enlighten me. Since you seem to know me so well.

Pointless? You make a statement about storage, and I reply to you with a statement about storage. You are right….. pointless.

“How are my statements fanboyish when they are factual? In order to match the load times of an Xbox 360 to a PS3 you must install a certain amount of gaming Data from the PS3 Gaming disc onto the PS3 itself.”

I never said that your statements were NOT factual. They are bias towards the 360 instead of just the big picture. If they are not meant to cater to the 360, then I take it back. It seems as though many of your comments lean toward the 360. (Just an observation)

This is just going back and forth. I give up and you win.
Just for the record, I have both systems and have no load time issues with either one. You are right though a DVD9 drive will defiantly load data faster than a BR drive.

Thanks!

[MaximusPrime]

xbox 360 still use DVD for games? i didn't know that. I thought they use HD DVD.

Oh well, tough luck.
Bluray is alway there if you needs it. (Microsoft needs to start bringing out bluray drive, better speed up Microsoft!)

[Armyless]

The HD-DVD add on for the 360 is for movie playback only... can't be used for games.

[MaximusPrime]

"can't play games"?

If thats true, then no further comments from me.

[SofaKingReetodded]

what kind of moronic company would lock itself out of using it's own next gen storage format for publishing games on it's own console??

oh wait....they are called MS...lol

[Testo]

It's what developers will leave out due to not wanting to stick that lonely gig of extras on its own dvd-dl.

[TLSBill]

And to be honest, if the developer (assuming it's not a fake story) didn't post there saying that space is the reason why, you wouldn't even know the reason it wasn't there.

Makes you wonder what else might be left out of other games without anyone even knowing because they didn't want to come right out and say "it's too small" and have MS get pissed at them for saying it.

I was/am reallying looking forward to this game, and I'm a little disheartened to learn that it could be better, except that the delivery medium is too small. Ship 2 DVD's and make one load onto the HD, just like loading a PC game if you have to, but put all the features in!

[Blabbermouth]

And you know that developers will always want to use as few disc's as possible.

[Vavoom]

it's like the alarm clock just rang in the sony fanboy dormitory. Everyone is up and cashing in the blu-ray justification tickets. Even though blu-ray is nice, I really don't see game filling up or needing to fill a disc this size, unless it's just being filled with a bunch of...ah...fillers.

Why does one beautiful game fit on an eight gig disk then another takes 50 gig. I only see a need for this when developing games like Oblivion and others like it. A car racing game, Does not need 50 gig, nor do a shooter. IMO

[novaIS350]

There are a lot of technical hurdles that must be overcome when using multiple discs on a racing game. This isn't an RPG where a certain point of a game is finished and a new disc can be loaded to start a new portion of the game. Somewhere a long the way temporary data must be stored on the system to be cached. Keep in mind, not all 360's have a standard HDD. This is a daunting task for any developer.

Blu-ray or not, there is no denying that a standard hard drive on every system and next-gen storage medium was a good call on Sony's behalf. At this point we shouldnt be arguing about why extra storage space isnt needed, but more so why it is so necessary for developers today.

edit: lol @ the disagrees. No where in my comment was I bashing any system. Yet the disagrees coming pouring in. 12 year olds dude.

[PS360PCROCKS]

what? It could be made the exact same way...half the tracks on one DVD, the other half on the other...your save point and everything is saved on your HDD or memory card...

[hella whip]

"Having the game spread across two discs isn't an option for a number of reasons. Sorting out gameplay both in single and multiplayer where you always have to swap discs around would be difficult, and detrimental to the flow of the game. Also, having two discs puts the price of manufacturing up, and that's one we'd have to discuss with the publisher." Quote from the dev on the forum.

Edit: How can you disagree with ME?!?!? Its a quote from the dev not me!?

[novaIS350]

They have to develop the game for the lowest common denominator..that being the core system with no Hard Drive, and no Memory card. Had there been a hard drive standard with every system...this bit of news would not be news at all.

[PS360PCROCKS]

true Noval, but the core does come with a memory card. but their you have it the quote from Hella confirms it all that they can't really do it. I thought maybe they could but they apparently can't. I think you might start seeing games with the Multiplayer on a separate disk. Which I would actually like to see as it wouldn't be a big deal and it would give some more space for more maps on MP and more space for SP. Oh and I didn't disagree with you, I'm 22, not 12. :)

[BrainDrain]

I just wonder when we will get to a point where we have dynamic lighting such that a level doesnt have to be remade multiple times based on morning, midday, evening, etc.

I'm no programmer, so i could not tell you what is involved in this process just that I think it would help in these situations.

[PS360PCROCKS]

Well it's not official but it is becoming more and more apparent that Microsoft should have included some sort of larger storage media format...sigh...PS3 pwns again...

[360Sheep]

I forsee a downloadable content package with the tracks in the alternative day/night mode, and fanboys eating it up because its seen as 'EXTRA' content rather than something that should have been in the game to begin with. so wait.. there are 10 cities right? Does that mean 10 Tracks, and the only difference on the tracks would be day,rain, and snow??? Wow, so they incorporated the Madden option of stadium and weather effects. 10 tracks?? If I am wrong, and hopefully I am because you guys were basing motorstorm with the limitation of tracks.

[PS360PCROCKS]

PGR does only have 10 tracks yes. But it's always been that way for the series...they just re-do them all and make them backwards, or sections or whatever. All racing games do that though. Even GT

edit:: what the hell? Who disagreed with me!? Are you so in love with GT and/or Forza that you can't admit that these games take a track and utilize it like 3 times to add more tracks to drive on? Geez, why don't you go put GT in and take a gander

[sjappie]

it has 10 cities wich have multiple tracks. There never was a lack of tracks in PGR.

[Bordel_1900]

We're already saying: "told you so!"

Ofc DVD is putting a limit to X360 games. MS füc*ed up. Period.

[Jeremy Gerard]

If they would have included a HD drive the 360 would be 600 bux, and stuck at 3 million consoles sold, how is choosing to actually sell consoles a fuc up?

@blunt, You call me mindless and your the one who actually beleevs sony stuck you with bluray so gamers could have better games? Are you smoking too many blunts!!! I think the consumer comes out just fine with a more affordable console, faster load times, and 512 megs of ram, as a result we have more and better looking games, and we dont have to wait for it, how is the PS3 consumer better off cuz I just dont see it.

[SmokeyMcBear]

wow jeremy you really are stupid, instead of looking at it from the microsoft side, look at it from the consumer side, don't you want games that are not constrained, don't you want the best experience out of each game without having to buy extra content that should be included in the game. Jesus, seriously, big companies love mindless lemmings like you

[tk]

So what if there is only 2 tracks per disk. Hopefully for the XB360 owners all the car models will fit on the DVD.

Maybe they should just bite the bullet and require HD for it - make a swap space - copy all the car data and swap disks for tracks. Sucks for core owners - but hey, this is the next gen...

[MaximusPrime]

it doesnt work that way. i guess you didnt read the news properly.

[power091999]

Your playing a online, and just had a great race and (track 01).

Now it on to the next track (track 02).

Online loading screen......

Please insert disc 2 to continue.

It just would not work. This is why Devs bust their butts to squeeze in every little once they can.

[urban bohemian]

Have they not heard of WIN-ZIP! lol

[TLSBill]

I'm sure they have, and if they are having a hard time with disk space, you can bet that's the first place they looked. Unfortuinatley, you can only copress textures so much before they start to look bad.

[DaEnforcer]

But what the xbots will say? They will still say DVD is enough and HD media in not needed. Blind fankids in denial hehe

[SmokeyMcBear]

wow.. this is gonna get pretty crazy in here. This is so early in the console life cycles for this to be a problem. Well at least in the life cycle of the ps3, the 360 on the other hand, I can see a 4 year cycle with the new model coming out in 2009. Maybe a format will have been determined and the new xbox will have that type of drive. You should all hope it will have better BC than the 360.

[D_U_I]

Message on screen?- Plz change the disk.... what!!!!! arrrr damn it!!!!!

On a more serious note, Ms needs to step up and notice that games are getting bigger and bigger, that cant always use Dvd9, can they?

[GoLeafsGo]

Bet those Core-owners feel ripped off now -____-'!

By the way, does anyone know how the load times on Blu-Ray would differ if all the data was compressed?...jsut wondering =\

[jwatt]

This is the part where Sony says I told you so! I mean they're not filling up Blu Ray but that extra space is welcomed by devs.

[Meus Renaissance]

So what? Is this going to make the game worst?

[jwatt]

No but it's not going to make the game better.

[Funky Town_TX]

A technical limit on a console. WTF were they thinking. More is always better. More RAM, more HDD space, and faster CPU. Bigger is better if you use it right, just ask a woman.

[Jeremy Gerard]

with the I told you so, Hey, I got an I told you so, I told you 5&600 bux was too much to pay for a console, and look no one is buying PS3, I told you so!!! ;)

[Anything but Cute]

84 comments already, this was just posted a little while ago.

[AllroundGamer]

lol that would be so freaking funny, if you had to change the disc by sunset or sunrise :D The Darkness is spreading... please insert disc 2 to continue the race :) something like the message in the old Castlevania on NES :)

[NextGen24Gamer]

Would I have bought the 360 elite with an HD dvd drive installed?

yes of course. But at the same time....Its a toss up with me. I do understand that Blu ray and HD dvd first gen drives load data much much slower than DVD9 disc drives.

Playing next gen....waiting for 30 seconds to 1 minute between levels is very very annoying. I actually don't mind changing discs if needed.

The thing about DVD9 vs Blu ray is even the most high tech computer games use Dvd9.

Compression techniques are getting better and better. Microsoft has the best software for that around. HD dvd's and blu ray movies use Microsofts superior VC-1 Compression tech.

Developers will find a way to make it work. Mulit discs or better compression tech....they will find a way

Having a bigger canvas is nice but for many developers its condusive to lazy dev'ing.

More data on the disc never coincides with better games.

But of course no one wants limitations....

Blu ray has none....DVD9's limitations all can be worked out. Multi discs or better compression.

Computer games do it.

But as a console gamer....there is a trade off. Faster load times or slower load times but the game fits on one disc....What ever your preference....it doesn't affect the end game at all. All you have to do is look at NCAA 2008....1080p 60fps on the 360 but only 720p and 30fps on the PS3. There are many more examples like that too.

So 250 for a 360 core that is rumored to come with a memory card and play all next gen games with faster load times and prettier graphics....

Or 500 for a Ps3 with much longer load times but less ram for graphics...which leads to games being released with slower frame rates and lower resolutions compared to the 360 versions....

[SmokeyMcBear]

do you want programmers to spend all of their time trying to figure out how to compress, compress, and compress some more tyring to fit the content onto a dvd, or would you rather have them spend time, making the game as perfect as possible with the most content and running smoothly as possible. Cmon man, you know time is money with developers, what would you rather have them spend their time on? Take the goggles off

[vidoardes]

A small part of your post makes sense, but only a small part. For a start, most of it isn't even to do with PGR4 or disk space, you just using the opportunity to bash the PS3.

Framerate/Resolution has nothing to do with the storage format. That is up to the developers working with the hardware, so the bottom third of your post is completely irrelevant.

As for multi-discs... doesn't work for certain genres of games as I explained in a earlier post. who wants to be limited to what cars they can use on certain tracks? I know I don't.

Compression technology is reaching it's limit. It can get incrementally better, improving slightly with every revision yes, but there aren't gonna be any major improvements to it. Why do you think that all PC games are now packed on disc and double/triple in size when installed? That's the best way of doing it, because decompression on the fly is slow, which brings me to counter your last point. Yes, the read speed on a Blu-Ray disc is slower than a DVD-9, it is an inescapable fact. But when the data is highly compressed, not only does it have to be read of the disc, but it has to be unpacked as well. If more and more compression is to be used, the difference between read speeds will become irrelevant.

Last but not least, we come to the point "does it really matter? They will just use multi-discs or better compression". Even if you want to argue with everything I have said above, you cannot deny the fact that they are not using multi-discs, or better compression, they are leaving out content. Sure, it's not a major point, it's just night versions of the tracks right? But this is content that should be included, and the only reason it isn't is because of disc space limitations, and that fact is undeniable.

[Bolts]

Its time to bite the bullet and start making games for the HD-DVD format.

[TLSBill]

Right.. It seems to me that this would be a non issue if MS would let them publish games on HD-DVD. Yeah ,"if" you wanted to play the game you'd have to buy the drive, but at least then you would get the full game. (I'm sure the dev woulddn't want to limit it's distribution to HD owners only though, it would shrink their market, but you get the idea.)

If they opened it up, this whole argument could almost become a non-issue.

[SofaKingReetodded]

MS did not include a bus big enough to feasibly run games from an attachable HDDVD drive. In other words they couldn't use it even if they wanted to.

Like someone else said MS screwed up and screwed up bad. It may not be so apparent this year but in the second half of next year you will see PS3 games start to leave 360 titles in the dust.

In fact MS will LOSE this round of the console wars even more dramatically than it did with xbox1. And that was actually a good reliable console.

[Xeoset]

What's with the Sony FanF|_|cks?

Motorstorm not good enough too keep your tiny brains amused for long enough so you have to come and awe PGR4's beauty?

Though so.

[Fighter]

You should compare PGR4 to Gran Turismo 5 or the GT Prologue.

[TLSBill]

I would think Forza2 would be GT5's competition, not PGR4. PGR4 seems like it would complete more with the need for speed, juiced kinda arcade game more than the sim style. Kudo's and stunts on the bikes and all.. (I'll still buy it though...)

[ThaGeNeCySt]

well regardless of whatever... Blu-Ray is great since the space is there for devs to utilize if they so choose... but Mass Effect looking GREAT and being 30+ hours with LOTS of dialogue & oblivion looking great and having 100+ hours of gameplay more than justifies why i think DVD is fine.

[xmod]

Maybe not sh!t but it looks weak. I'm sorry Mass Effect doesn't look that great. I saw the trailers on gametrailers and it seemed everytime the character (who u play as) shoots at an enemy, THERE IS ONLY 1-2 ENEMIES ON SCREEN. That's terrible.

Whatever happened to next-gen with many enemies or characters on screen at once. Mass Effect is way overrated IMO. Visually, a game like Lair blows it away (gameplay might be another story).

[ThaGeNeCySt]

I completely disagree and come November, you'll see why

[Fighter]

If they do release PGR4 as a DLC can you later transfer that game from your 360 to your PC if the 360 HDD is getting close to full? Can you also burn that game on a dvd-r to make a back-up copy? I don't think I could do that with my PS3 game, Super Stardust HD.

[Lumbo]

nope, you can't. For encryption reasons MS does not allow any tampering with stuff on the HDD (if it is present at all .. see core sku...) Neither do they allow you to put code aka games on the console from anywhere but official roms and xbox life.

[VirusE]

Why everyone else is busy worrying about blu-ray vs. hd-dvd or blu-ray vs. dvd9 i will be busy doing 20k powerslides in my r390gt. Its all about the gameplay, who gives a rats arse if i have to switch out a dvd here and there.

[SmokeyMcBear]

thats the whole point man.. you are not going to switch a discs.. you are just not going to get that content, straight from the developers mouth. They are not considering putting things on 2 discs... you are just not getting those tracks, you won't be getting that extra content. And if you are, well you will most likely have to pay for that downloadable content. Hey if you want to pay more for features in a game that should have been included from the beginning, that is your perogative. The game is going be 60 bucks, and it is already gimped straight from the developers mouth. Take off your fanboy glasses and demand better.

[power091999]

In this case there is going to be one disk. The way it should be.

Personally I don't have an issue changing disk on certain games. Bluedragon is not a fast paced racer. It's a RPG... your supposed to have lots of content, and take your time.

A racer on the other hand would not work with multi-disks.

[RadientFlux]

God forbid a racing games comes out on more then one disk (remember Gran Turismo on the PS anyone)

[power091999]

I almost forgot about that....

Disk 1 = GTMode
Disk 2 = Arcade mode.

NICE CATCH!

[TLSBill]

Yep that sucked.. Not as much as the top speed test bug that deleted your entire garage, but was bad all the same.

[The Wood]

ain't that game like 8 years old and 'last gen'. why compare the 360 games to the ps 1 and 2 games. The problem is that the dev said it wont be on 2 disks so the 360 owners with hdd WITH space will probably have to pay for extra bits. no flame

[Gamer13]

Just release the GAME.

IM OUT...///"""

[emandm]

Hey PS fanboys, How many games on the ps3 actually use more than 8.5 gigs of space. What should MS have done leave the xbox360 on the shelf for a year and a half waiting for the storage technology to catch up. You could fit all the PS3 triple A titles on one dvd 9, because there aren't any! The 360 gets triple A after triple A titles and don't you PS3 fanboys love it!

[lVlemphizStylez]

you're so stupid you hurt my brain...

[macalatus]

"The 360 gets triple A after triple A titles and don't you PS3 fanboys love it!"

Hey, I didn't know the American Automobile Association makes video game titles for the 360! ;)

[Whoooop]

I didn't mind changing disks on the PS1, PS2 and dreamcast, but this generation I would like to play games in only 1 disk.

Now if the game is going to be limited or won't be fully finished then I wouldn't mind for it to be in more than 1 disk.

For now what we've seen from the 360 upcoming games is that disk space is not an issue.

We'll have to wait and see if this games are going to be as beautiful as they look and still have large environments and decent length on their single player campaign..

Now with this article about PGR4 we are starting to see that the 360 is completely capable of GREAT visuals, colors and textures, but as developers push the envelope, DVD9 is falling short.

This could lead to visually stunning and impressive, but short games. (Ex: GeOW).

[Double-Edged]

no comment

[THAMMER1]

The programmers figured it out. They will figure this out too. For all we know this guys statement could have been blow out of proportion. Again the only people I see trying to convince any gamer there is a problem is Sony fans.

More space is a plus. "YES" this is very true. But every thing will work out. We need to stop jumping to conclusions and bashing. This is why M$ works so close with developers. DVD9 is fine for now and around 2009 2010 the new systems are going to come out with HD drives standard. So lets just have fun for now.

[lVlemphizStylez]

their figuring out could just as easily boil down to spinning the extra stuff that couldn't fit as "Add On EXCLUSIVE CONTENT"....And you know it...You know very well if you saw "PGR4 DLC Blow Out Sale at ONLY $19.99" you wouldn't be very surprised...

[MoonDust]

they need a reason to justify the $600 price tag.

[P4KY B]

Blu-ray has size
DVD9 has speed

But DD has both.

I wish MS would allow us to use external Hard Drives and then just release all games via DD then there are no size restrictions.
Already there are HD movies available which dwarf DVD9.

And with DD i dont have to rely on the postal service to deliver my new games.

DD is the future.

360 and PS3 both have DD so all the fanboy nonsense could end too.

[BubblesDAVERAGE]

What happens when you lose disc one ? and still have disc two ? I would be madder if I still had disc two but not disc one ? I would have to buy the whole game over again..but hey i got a back up now lol...

[NextGen24Gamer]

I agree with you 1,000,000 percent buddy. Thats as Real as it gets.

P.S. I have stalkers....I have more disagree's for agreeing with Thammer than he got for making the initial comment. lol...I'm might just give up on this site. Sony fanboys would like that huh. More Sony fans so yall can agree on everything. I'm not a MS fan or a Sony fan. I'm a Game Hobbyiest. I enjoy video games. This is just sad.

[power of Green]

More Sony fanboys in this 360 thead than 360 fans. lol

[nurayi]

if this is all that matters in life, then it must be a sad existence.

[warfed]

xbox fanboys still defending DVD... wow denial...

edit: below
I bought it so I obviously had good reasons, and if your mommy can't afford to buy you one GOOD keep the 12yr old off psn.

[MoonDust]

wow. denial.

[Fighter]

And still more reliable than your box.

[MoonDust]

LOL

[THC CELL]

Who said size did not matter?

Blu ray is awesome and 50gig well that will never really be topped and if so well we do have a future of 200gig

btw if Pgr disk is almost full well just to let u know it dose not look half as good as GT5.

Not that i am bashin cause i love pgr i think its a fun game

This new one i dont like the idea of bikes in the game

.

[Nemesis]

"Who said size did not matter?"

It's not the size that counts it what you do with it, just ask Chava's missus she'll tell ye!

[NextGen24Gamer]

Isn't that funny...lol....within 1 minute of my comment above....I got 8 disagree's...Too funny that Sony fanboys Troll these type of Threads....I mean its a xbox 360 exclusive game. They show so much interest in it. PGR 4 will get 90% review scores and in the end be another AAA game exclusive to the 360.

Motorstorm is on blu ray disc and made by SONY. Why is the game so short and have so little tracks and cars available? lol....

And it runs in 720p at 30fps...interesting indeed. It came out months after the Ps3 launch...I thought blu ray held so much textures and game data aka Tracks/Cars...lol

I have never bashed Killzone or anything Ps3. I speak only from my personal experience as a multi console owner. I buy everything and I play everything...on the best possible setup. I love video games. I check all news. Ps3 or 360....I do own both consoles you know...

xbox live Elite24Gamer

PSN TopGamer25

"As it stands, we've got the best of all options. We've got tons of cities, the best lighting effects we've ever done, and weather which dramatically changes the look of the cities too. And it all fits on one disc. :D"

Ben (Bizzare creations developer)

[lVlemphizStylez]

It was also a launch title...Perfect Dark was a Xbox360 launch title, should we put that on the cutting board as well???

[warfed]

trust me this argument isn't about the game it's about the DVD, and Motorstorm was rushed. "Sony fanboys Troll these type of Threads" just like you troll anything that bashes sony or anything that has to do with Killzone

[Nemesis]

Too right, Perfect Dark Zero sucked big time. I think Rare were just pleased to get that nighmare out the door though and move on. Just a shame they moved onto Viva Pinata!

Still at least they gave us Kameo, that was quite interesting in a quirky sort of way.

[vidoardes]

You didn't get 8 disagrees because of Sony fanboy trolls, you got the disagrees because you post was full of crap, as I have detailed in a reply to it. The debate isn't wether or not it will be a good game, I am sure it will be great, the point of it is discuss the fact that the devs have left out content purley because of lack of disk space.

Try and stay on topic in future.

[THAMMER1]

Elitegamer is only saying no one should act like their $#!t don't stink. Plain and simple.

[Lex Luthor]

It seems as if bizzare creations have sorted out the problem:

"As it stands, we've got the best of all options. We've got tonnes of cities, the best lighting effects we've ever done, and weather which dramatically changes the look of the cities too. And it all fits on one disc. :D"

Ben (Bizzare creations developer)

[Nemesis]

Since when do textures change between day and night? If they used a decent lighting model and corrective shaders there would be no need for separate day/night textures at all.

I call BS on this one, there's no way Bizarre are that technically inept, is there?. Expect a retraction from Bizarre to follow shortly.

[InMyOpinion]

Lazy developers...

[Dogswithguns]

only get to play 2 tracks.

[Nemesis]

Don't know how many tracks but heres a list of locations.

Macau, China
Las Vegas, USA
London, England
St Petersburg, Russia
Tokyo, Japan
New York City, USA
Shanghai, China
Quebec, Canada
Nurburgring, Germany
Michelin Test Track

WTF, this isn't opinion it's fact. It takes a true fanboy of the highest order to disagree with a fact.

[Figboy]

what people fail to consider are the ramifications of this limition to *OTHER genres.

many people are listing games like FFVII being on multiple discs back in the day, and Gears of War being on 1 DVD9, even Oblivion (i'll touch on Oblivion in a minute), but what about *SANDBOX games?

what about non-linear RPGs?

can you imagine making it to the second island in Liberty City (hypothetical GTA game, by the way), only to have to switch discs, then you realize, "oh crap, i left my rifle back in Staunton Island," then you have to go back, load the "Stauton Island" disc, get your rifle, then go back, load the "Second Island" disc, and get your game on?

do you realize how badly that would kill any truly epic sandbox game, or non-linear RPG?

imagine also if you had to change discs everytime you went to a different planet in KOTOR I and II.

as for Oblivion, those that champion that Blu Ray isn't needed are quick to bring up Oblivion.

fact is, Oblivion has like, 8 textures for the *ENTIRE GAME.

there's rock texture, grass texture, boulder texture, cave texture, leaf texture, skin texture, and, more rock texture. and this is repeted across the entire game world. all the caves in the game sports similar textures. all the houses in the game have similar wood grain and textures. the main differences in textures in Oblivion, are the various swords and armors and clothing you find.

this is fine for a more realistic fantasy RPG, but what about a more modern day title? where you *NEED different textures to express the various locales in your city or what have you, so not every area looks the same.

Oblivion takes up 5gigs, right?

imagine a space-faring action/rpg (think KOTOR), where there are 5, 5gig planets, each as large as Oblivion, with their own creatures, items, and quests to complete. think Hoth, Dagobah, Tatooine, Coruscant, and Endor. a game like that wouldn't be possible on the 360's DVD9s. the levels would have to be incredibly tiny. but a 25gig Blu Ray disc could handle it, and a 50gig disc would mean the best audio and video also. because there's plenty of room.

think of how badass it would be, all in real time, to climb into your star craft (Warhawk style), fire the thrusters, and blast off into the stratosphere, leaving Tatooine behind, and seeing the green spec of Endor off in the distance, slowly growing larger, until your ship breaks it's atmosphere, hull superheating, forests and cities stretched out below, and docking, and taking part in a myriad of different quests from Tatooine, without having to pause to load once between *ANY of the five planets(thank god for streaming technology).

*THESE are the kinds of things possible with Blu Ray, and even HD DVD, but not DVD9.

i'm really interesting in seeing what Rockstar is going to do to push the PS3's Cell and Blu Ray drive, as they've already expressed concerns about fitting GTAIV on a DVD9 as well.

the 360 is a good machine, it's a shame that it was hindered by this major lack of foresight.

Sony showed great foresight by including a CD drive in the PS1, and a DVD drive in the PS2, i think Blu Ray in the PS3 will, ultimately, be seen as a wise decision as well.

i know i certainly haven't seen any developers b*tching about it being *INCLUDED. businessmen and publishers, who care about console sales numbers so they can make money? yes. actual game developers? no.

[EDF 2017]

It is like KOTOR, has a huge universe to explore, Gears of War + quality graphics, plus 30+ hours of gameplay and probably with win game of the year award? Look better than the whole ps3 library as well even the much touted PS3 up and coming titles. None of those games can match the texture quality of Mass Effect much less Gears of War and guess what those were on tiny DVD9's. DVD9 is fine chump.

[Figboy]

do we know how big the areas in Mass Effect are?

what *I'M talking about, is each and every planet in the game (5 in all) are as large as Oblivion. not just areas that give the illusion of being larger than they are, like in Rogue Galaxy, and the KOTOR games, but imagine exploring a planet as large as Oblivion, then heading to *ANOTHER planet, just as large as Oblivion, with all new items, quests, and resources to exploit?

the number of hours you could sink into a game like that are damn near immeasurable.

*THAT'S what i mean when i say a DVD9 can't do something like that. i'm talking about *EPIC scale, not the illusion of epic scale.

Mass Effect, will well and truly rock, i'm certain, but it's just the tip of the iceberg of what is possible.

Oblivion is roughly 5 gigs. a Blu Ray disc is 25 gigs. you could fit Oblivion onto a Blu Ray 4, almost 5 TIMES.

let your imagination run wild with the thought of a game that huge.

it may seem impossible, but it's not. the technology is certainly there hardware-wise, and the storage medium is there in Blu Ray (since HD DVD isn't going to be used for games).

[InMyOpinion]

What about Crackdown? Just Cause? Test Drive Unlimited? They all have huge worlds. Let's see how GTA IV and Mass Effect play out before we rule out the storage medium completely, shall we?

[jlemdon]

you didn't support HD-DVD players, now that developers are talking about insuffecient space on DVD9 you get all aggy.

[Jack Bauer]

this is what happens when you use old technology on new technology...

an engine such as Alan Wake's with realtime lighting doesnt require remaking textures like that...thus the you PS fanboys have a field day for nothing...bizarre is just behind the times DVDs are sufficient enough...9 big cities, plus all the cars on one disc is as big as you'll ever get no matter the space.

[Lightning Mr Bubbles]

What is this? Is this good news for XBOX 360 fans or PS3 fans? This news article struck a core that's for sure.

[Chava]

i personnally don't mind changing disc mid-game
BUT imagine a game like the next gta, you get to a certain part of the city and a message pops up : "please insert disc 2 to gain access to this area."
OUCH

[Nemesis]

That would suck in a game like GTA. I guess they would have to design the game so that you complete everything that needs to be done in one area before being allowed to move on to the next, like breaking the game into chapters. Definitely not ideal for a sandbox type game I know, but rather this than reducing the games playing area.

[DJ]

to cut down on load times, and on top of that Microsoft has a second layer of heavy compression to help Xbox 360 Developers fit their games onto one DVD. The solution isn't to compress more and compromise quality; Sony knew this and made a great decision for both developers and gamers alike.

[Daz]

I got a good i dear if developers are having trouble fitting it on a dvd cant they put mutiplayer on one disc and single player on the other disc problem solved and they can add more content while there at it lol.

[zonetrooper5]

I'm still getting the game, it will be excellent and serouisly, who cares about changing a disc? Are your lifes that sad that you argue over which is better, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray or DVD. Now just play the game.

I'm hoping to become a programmer for a games company sometime in the future. :D

[CrazzyMan]

NO, it`s not enough. =)

[THAMMER1]

Nobody is defending DVD9 people are only saying it is not as big of an issue as you guys are trying to make of it.

Your motives are transparent. please stop making fools of your self.

[sak500]

I'd rather have a 2 or 3 disc game which is also in minority, than pay extra $200 for a new format which hardly any games use and its almost completed its first year. Even most multiplatform games have same amount of gameplay and content on standard dvd and bd.

[CrazzyMan]

Today blu-ray player included in PS3 for FREE - and it`s a Really nice GIFT from Sony.

explanation:

x360 premium 20GB - 400$.
ps3 60GB - 500$.

for additional 100$ you get + 40GB + wi-fi + card readers + free online gaming + some Big (MGS, FF, GT, GoW and etc.) AAA titles which will be only on PS3.
additional x360 20GB Hard Drive Disc itself cost 100$.

Blu-ray cost you NOTHING today.

Half year ago blu-ray cost for ps3 users 100$, for those who wanted cheap blu-ray player included in PS3, for those who wanted get Faster(FIRST) into HD 1080p movie. =)

TODAY YOU GET A BLU-RAY PLAYER/DRIVE FOR FREE.

plus:
1) 25-50GB disc will be more comfortable for gaming - fact.
2) it will be easier for developers create games and using HDD (just like in Oblivion) - fact.
3) cell power will provide amazing physics and AI - fact.
4) motion controler + nextgen vibration - fact.

[PS360PCROCKS]

If I didn't already own one, you might of been able to sell me one. How much does Sony pay you to do their marketing? lol jk

[Bloodmask]

If a game doesn't fit on one disk they will put on on 2, 3, or, 4. Big freakin deal. Including PGR4. There are other racing games that are multi-disk.

Buy a game bc it is good not bc of how many disks it is on.......Who cares.

The PC market, 360, and Wii, have been doing fine without Blu ray.

[Anything but Cute]

from this fool

[aiphanes]

The only console that is truly next gen is the PS3.

Because it has bluray with up to 50 GIGs of storage space compared to the Xbox 360 with its 8.5 GIG DVD 9 space.

50 GIGS VS 8.5 GIGS....that is a lot of difference.

Also all PS3 have a harddrive, so developers can stream data from the harddrive in all games...this is not the case on the Xbox 360.

Once again...the PS3 has bluetooth 2.0...an industry standard.
The PS3 also uses industry standard 2.5 inch SATA drives.

In 1 to 2 years, you will need at least 25 GIGs for a good game.

Remember on the PC it is different...you can install the game on the harddrive...so it they need two DVD9 disc...it will just take more time to install on the harddrive....you can not do this on the Xbox 360...since most people have the 20GB harddrive which only has like 9 to 12 gigs free space....so installing Mass Effect 2 on the hard drive is not am option.

microsoft will go with HD-DVD or bluray on the next version of its console...if they make one....but why even make a next next gen Xbox 360 (720) when you are still going to lose money. Why not just make software for whatever the next PS4 or Wii 2 is going to be? You will actually make money. Sony is going to eventually make money on the PS3 and definately on the PS4....Sony is a hardware company, unlike microsoft which does not know how to make good hardware...show me some hardware that microsoft made that was really good?

Maybe there new touch screen tabletop computers...but they are not out yet.

[GameHero]

they said "nobody wants Blue-ray"...Blue Ray maybe the knight in shining armor for SONY and the PS3!

Go BLUE!

[GameHero]

Do to the popular demand of high-def Blue ray storage space the Microsofts video game console (Xbox360) is switching to Blue ray as it's primary media format!

[PS360PCROCKS]

This just in...it's BLU-RAY

[Jvanleuvan]

OK. Lets look at the numbers (as best as I understand them) The xbox360 has 512MB(0.5 GB) of texture memory SO at any given time it can hold 512MB of uncomressed textures in memory for video processing. (I am assuming that the system doesn't de-compress textures on the fly as that would use up too much processing power while you are playing. It only would decompress during load times)

I am assuming that all the textures for the track need to be loaded into memory (meaning there are no 'load times' while on a track only in-between tracks) also all the textures for all the cars as well, lets assume 20MB for all the cars uncompressed (I think it might me much more than that but lets be conservative).

So that gives us 492MB of uncomressed textures per track.

Well lets look at some image compression technologies. Specifically JPEG.

a 1025x760 Bitmap (totally uncompressed) is 2300KB(2.3MB)
that same image as a JPEG at "medium compression" (which no one could reasonably notice was compressed) is only 102KB.(.1MB) Thats 22.5 times smaller.

That same image using JPEG "good" (which is essentially a perfect reproduction) is only 136KB(.13MB) Thats 17 times smaller.

So assuming that they used JPEG "good" Compression for the 492MB of tectures for a track. that gives us only 28MB of disk space needed for each track times 10 tracks thats 280MB. about 1/4 of 1 GB. You could fit almost 300 Tracks worth of textures on a single DVD 8GB disk.

if you used the JPEG "Medium" then it's only 22MB per track and you could fit 360 tracks worth of textures on a disk.

SO It doesn't seem that there should be any space issue. Unless they are using some sort of Loss-less compression. (I don't thik it'd matter as I cant see the difference on a still picture let alone a image zooming by at 100MPH 100 yards away in a game.)

If it were up to me I'd use MPEG3 compression for all the sounds, and JPEG 50% or lower for all the track textures -except the cars, then I'd use JPEG 80%

But I'm not a developer....

[Lumbo]

LOL

you made me laugh there for your complete lack of insight in how texturing works in games :D

You do not have 512MB of texture memory in the 360, you have 512 MB ram TOTAL, the gamecode (ai, physics etc) has to fit in there you know ;)

And the textures are mostly streamed from the disk while on the track. You DO NOT load the whole track into the main memory and thats it :) You only load the needed part and feed it to the gpu as needed and then drop it till its needed again. Gears of war was a prime example of smart texture streaming.

[Jvanleuvan]

As stated above the xbox360 has 512 MB of texture memory. The PS3-as I understand- Has only 256MB of texture memory. To me that is a MUCH bigger issue that the total storage space. Storage space aloows for more leves characters etc... (assuming it's even needed) But video memory means that every frame of every animation has to fit in less space...

So given the above example the same track on a PS3 could only have 256MB worth of tectures. Half as much, so thats half as much detail. But, unlike storage space, I don't think you can use compression in memory, so 256MB is 256MB and theres nothing that can be done about it.

[lVlemphizStylez]

should go check your sources...the PS3 has the same available 512mb...Cell and RSX work in unison for all graphics on the Ps3, they are not exclusive from the other...

[GameHero]

Just Kidding...But that would be cool!

No flame wars please...just a joke!

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Funny how Playstation fans put two disc in when they want to play a PS2 game but then come here and talk sh!t LOL I love it. Funny how the big selling point of the PS3 is Blu-Ray and how those talking sh!t are PS3 fans. Aparently this is only needed when the PS3 fans say it is but to the rest of the world it's not a concern. Funny how changing a disc is "only" a problem for PS3 fanboys.

If you look up the word hypocrite you will find somthing new added to the defenition PS3-Ray fanboys. Funny how the Wii, 360 and the PC didn't choose HD DVD or Blu-Ray for gaming and only the PS3 and how it's only the PS3 fans that support it because the PS3 happens to be Blu-Ray and if you ever say that the PS3 is a Blu-Ray player first they flip flop on thier opinions.

[warfed]

funny how the last gen ps2 needed 2 discs for some games, I guess the 360 is truly a last gen machine... even last gen DVD wasn't enough....

[360Sheep]

ok fanatics, howsa about this. Lets get off the mutliple discs thing and focus on exactly what this developer said. He stated that the game will not include day/night tracks because of space issues. This means you are not getting everything in the game that the developer wanted to give you. You are getting less content in your video game because of the storage space of the disc. THIS GAME WILL NOT BE ON 2 DISCS. You will just simply not get everything that was supposed to be in this game. How does that make you feel? Doesnt that make you mad? I can understand if they will lower the price of the game to 45 dollars or something like that. But if they are to charge you full price for a game that does not have everything that it is supposed to..well hell, i'd be pissed, and if the tracks were offered at a price as downloadable content, well i wouldnt buy it, theres pricibalities involved.

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

Did what I said above you make you mad?

[360Sheep]

no not mad.. just getting rid of your crutch.. you know the whole... well since it was on ps1 and ps2 then it should be ok for this generation arugment. So anyways, hows that wait for your 360 to come back from the shop... you got it yet, or you still waiting? Maybe you had to send it in again.. just wondering thats all.

[warfed]

lol xbox fanboys quickly went from, DVD is enough this generation Blu-Ray is rip off to who cares if the game is 5 DVDs, just so you know... I do!

[Monty_The_Great]

this is "rumored" by any other site, I will just take this as flamebait for some crappy gaming site.

[hella whip]

Its from the official Bizarre forums from an actual dev on the game. I don't really see how this is just considered "Rumor" by you. Did you read the articule/forum??

[DJ]

I’m a CG Artist, and I can tell you right off that the fake Texture Space data posted by JvanLeuvan is well…fake. JPEG compresses heavily, but high quality JPEG photos are still quite large, in the neighborhood of 300KB for a single 1024x1024 tile. And we’re just talking about Color Maps, the basis of all textured models. This would have been a sound calculation back in the PS2 days, but texture requirements have expanded exponentially.

A 1MB model (textures, wireframe, rigging) back in the PS2/Xbox days now requires about 30MB. Here’s a quick list of the maps that 3D artists have to use:

Color Map (multiple versions on a gradient system if you want damage to occur)
Diffuse Map
Luminosity Map (usually worthless, but it does happen)
Specular Map
Reflection Map
Refraction Map (rare, but useful for glass and liquids)
Alpha Maps
Parallex Maps (only game developers use these)
Normal Maps (the staple of next-gen games, and often VERY high-res)

Add to the fact that the average tile per model has grown from 512 x 512 to 2K x 2K and you can see why DVD’s storage limit is really pissing off developers right now. 360 Developers are competing against PS3 developers, and they’re obligated to keep up with teams that have 5x more storage capacity to work with.

[Geohound]

Reseting these tool's bubbles?

What made that sound like a good idea? Alcohol? Cocaine?

[otherZinc]

PGR4 will have more and be better than GT5 again!

[D_U_I]

You talking about GT5P and not the full game.... PGR4 will be great. yerr!!!! Then GT5 comes out in 2008 and it will crush it... sorry xbot owned...
you failed to get MGS4
your console has a 30%!!! failure rate!!!!
dvd9 is now limiting your GREAT? games
Halo 3 is no different from halo 2, bit of gloss paint?
you go on about games like bioshock changing the way you play games. hahahahahaha No!

cheers.

[Goshyujin_Sama]

HAhaha they should go Blue-Ray, stop fighting the greatness of Sony's spacious format

[Jeremy Gerard]

I can say is this must be one hell of a game if it is pushing the limits of DVD9, think about it, PGR4 will be awesome, can't wait for this one.

[felidae]

hmm. where's TheMART?

[Jvanleuvan]

" should go check your sources...the PS3 has the same available 512mb...Cell and RSX work in unison for all graphics on the Ps3, they are not exclusive from the other... "

I have looked aorund at the specs. Yes both systems do have 512 MB of ram. However My Understanding is that all (or any portion thereof) of the xbox's 512 MB is directly available to the GPU.(though this probaly wont vary much beyond 50/50 as the CPU needs memory too)

The PS3 is simmilar- THE CPU has direct access to 256MB of memory (the XDR ram) but not much access at all to the the 256MB DDR3 video memory. However the the GPU does have access to the 256 MB of "CPU" memory, though the general concensus is that there will be a latency hit when accessesing the "CPU" memeory.

[batman2million]

isn't blu-ray discs a lot more expensive than dvd9s? doesn't that come into the development costs?

I know that a ONE blank blu ray disc costs 25 bucks. And for that much i could get 15 dvd9s. hmmm..maybe the price difference isn't that big for the companies.

[hella whip]

I find it funny that as Blu-rays are more expensive than DVDs to put games on why are the games the same price for each format? Is Sony subsidising the Devs or are the just milking money from the xbox games cause the could offer them cheaper?? These are just questions so there's no need to disagree with them.

[Lumbo]

press a dvd = $0.50, press a BluRay = $0.70 yes, MS is stealing freaking 20 cent from you per game !!!

please get real, the actual production costs per unit are the lowest factor for both formats, the developement makes up for most of the price.

[mikeslemonade]

That's fine us PS3 owners will take PGR4;)

[The Wood]

but this is the dev saying this not a fanboy and all who saw something like this coming are labeled fanboys. It obvious to all of us that the better graphics get, the better sound gets the larger games get the more space will be needed. Devs will work to do their best and overcome these hurdles because its their livelihood. The fact is its normally better to have and not need and some games developers may think twice about bringing certain games to he 360 not ALL just some. Kudos to the devs who just get on with it and produce great games but their hands will be tied. You can only compress something so much and if were moving into a Hi Def era the compression MAY become more apparent whether it be the look or the length of a game. Decompressing, if i'm not mistaken, also takes up resources and time. The fact is everything or products have limitations. This is just 1 of the 360's 1

[ApocalypseShadow]

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NEXT GEN.is the 360 spoken of in the same breath as ps2?then 360 is just not next gen if you have to pull out ps2 to justify an almost decade old medium.

you're such fools.you defend the f*cked up core unit that can't save without purchasing something.

you defend RROD by saying "thanks microsoft for covering my 360 when it breaks down in the next 3 years."it's a f*cking moving target peter."

you defend the high prices of accessories when 64mb memory units cost $30-$40 dollars.64 F*CKIN MEGA BYTES!!! i could get gigs for that price.

you defend microsoft changing their minds on 1080p,hdmi,having a larger hard drive,1yr warranty from 90 days(following ps3's lead).and now.....

you defend a disc that is holding games back.and look forward to buying the rest of the sh!t from xbox live.so you get a $60 dollar game that was held back because of disc space and can't wait to pull out your wallets for extra tracks,levels,maps,etc.d@mn you guys are stupid.

gears was held back.gta is being held back.forza 2 was held back.pgr4 is being held back.blue dragon has to be on multiple discs,dmc4 will be held back,any multiplatform game will be held back by 360 coming to ps3.

THIS IS F*CKIN CURRENT GEN!NEXT F*CKIN GEN!NOT LAST F*CKIN GEN!OR F*CKING PREVIOUS F*CKIN GEN!

**it's better to have and not need it.than to need it and not have it.

thanks sony for cd/ps1
thanks sony for cd/dvd for ps2
thanks sony for bluray for ps3.

dumb@ss fanboys.maybe 360 deserves to be considered LAST GEN since you want to compare disc size to ps1 and ps2 because you can't compare it to it's RIVAL: PS3.

[SofaKingReetodded]

it's pretty ridiculous the way these children ignore cold hard facts and just keep spouting their non-sense.

I could understand the position " I don't care if the PS3 has better specs, I love my 360 games"

but these idiots actually try to argue as if they actually have advantages over the PS3.

THAT'S WHAT MAKES PEOPLE LAUGH AT YOU XBOTS, and FLAME YOU LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW.

[Jvanleuvan]

I don't want to question you because you probably know more about this subject than I. However I think we can agree that in a game such as PGR The entire track's data (all Textures, wireframes, etc...) must be loaded into memory. This loaded data cannot possibly exceed 512 MB per track (as there are no loading screens during a race)

Now I am also making the assumprion that any compressed JPEG data is Decompressed to bitmaps(I don't mean MS BMP format I mean raw byte arrays) in memory for Texel processing - Am i correct?

-also note That on my Hard drive a 1024x1024 JPEG image at 90% quality wich is "very good" is 240KB at 80% its 188KB. Even at 90% quality thats a 12.5 times reduction in side over raw Bitmap(3073K). so even given 90% quality the textures for any given track (assuming that the track is 100% textures- obviouly not true) each track's textures would use 39 MB. time 10 tracks the ABSOLUTE MOST a full extra set of textures could consume is 390MB.

The reason I am talking about textures is that the artical states that they could not fit any more textures to do Nightime racing.

I would speculate that in actuality each track doesn't use all 512 MB of memory for textures. Probably at most 200 MB.

SO that brings the total to 160 MB for all the tracks to reciev a COMPLETE set of textures.(assuming JPEG 90% quality)

Just some thoughts.
Please reply If I've made any mistakes.

[DJ]

Game engines take up quite a bit of room, so visual data, while the majority, is probably only going to take up 300MB at a time. The rest has to be left open for stuff such as the Frame Buffer (32MB at 1080p resolution) as well as data that is written by the CPU/GPU. Add in complex audio, and you can see how fast 512MB goes out the window.

There's actually no limit to how large a level can be. For example, each level in Forza 2 is around 300 MB, and they were only able to fit 12 levels on the disc due to equally important content such as car models, decals for the custom paint mode, music, audio effects, etc. In contrast, games such as Lair and Uncharted are dedicating nearly 4GB to each level, and this is possible since the PS3 has a standard hard drive and the fact that Blu-ray has a steady data-rate, unlike DVD. They just constantly cache and stream data off the disc to fit a 4GB level into 512MB of memory.

Compare Gran Turismo 5: Prologue to any 360 racer and you'll see the difference in texture quality for both the cars and the tracks, as well as level of detail in terms of geometry. That additional space that Blu-ray affords is being used up at an exponential pace, which makes one wonder how limited 360 developers feel right now.

[FirstknighT]

...MASS EFFECT!

[Raptors]

As soon as i saw the title of this story i thought this would be a bloodbath lol Honestly i don't see the issue of having to change discs. Its nothing revolutionary and its been done before. Ultimately would i prefer to have it on one disc? of course. But really whats the big issue? We grew up from composite connections, 1 and 2 button controllers, and gamepads that had wiring. Are we now so spoiled that we have to complain about changing a disc? Im sorry but thats sad and disappointing.

[Rhezin]

who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! they'll figure it out and it'll be fine, if not F!CK it I got plenty of awesome games coming coming out for my 360, Bioshock Halo 3 and Mass effect to be clear.

[ApocalypseShadow]

"what would mass effect have looked like if it were on hd-dvd or bluray?"

yeah rhezin,all 3 games held back by dvd-9.at least you will have 50% of the fun and will buy the other 50% of the fun later on that should have been 100% fun to begin with.

[sledgey]

Everyone's comment were correct in one form or the other. Compression on a whole is BAD. This is why HD streams are better on some channels versus the others. For XBOX360 games to be even better, developers would need more storage because the processors in the machine CANNOT change. Decompressing data is extremely processor intensive. If the 360 didn't have to decompress its data, the added processor power could be used to display more complex geometry, more moving content on screen at once and better AI. This is why most PS3 games that utilize its technology have greater draw distance, lighting and physics implementation. Both consoles are powerful, but decompressing data is what will limits the complexity of 360 games in the future. This is exceptionally true for sound data. Again, this is where PS3 games excel. Most developers think that decompressing data is wasted processor time which should be reserved for the GAME ENGINE itself.
This is why most developer agree that the PS3 was designed with the future context.
PC games are currently also on DVD, but are uncompressed during installation in most cases, so this isn't that platforms achilles heel during ACTUAL gameplay.
The problem of decompressing data on the fly by the processor is very apparent in Oblivion on 360. All games would be so wonderful on 360 if its CPU was faster at decompressing, but developers have stated that it is not fast enough for seamless transition during gameplay. This is why 360 game environments are not as expansive as they could be.
At the end of the day, the PS3 has the advantage all around. This is not apparent now.....but you will see the difference soon.
However, both machines are true beasts, but the PS3 just has bigger and sharper teeth.

XBOX360 Rocks
PS3 Rocks!
WII..anybody want to buy mine?

[DJ]

The reason Microsoft actually pushed for 3 cores instead of 2 is because it takes almost an entire core to constantly decompress data off a 360 disc. That's right, it can take up to two hardware threads (out of 6) to simply put the data into system memory.

So on top of having limited storage capacity, the 360's CPU typically wastes 1/4~1/3 of its processing power to deal with that limited capacity. =/

[deadeyes99]

oh no not different times per city, i wouldnt want thta crap on there nayway.

[Shaka2K6]

So basically xbox 360 with Blu-ray confirmed or what ?

back in 2006.

xbox fanbois.
But but but oblivion fits on a single dvd,Blu-ray is not needed.
LMAO!

[Blabbermouth]

Besides the idea that it might be annoying to have to change disc's

Again, its what developers will have to sacrifice to put their game on as few disc's as possible. And you all know that developers will go that direction.

[Imalwaysright]

Hmm i dont know what to believe in... its the 3rd time i see a dev complaining about DVD space but then i see a game like Mass wich is HUGE and has so much detail and some of the best graphics ive ever seen... and fits in one DVD?? So wich one is it?? is PGR bigger than Mass??? Or dont they know about compressing techniques???

[bootsielon]

I've been saying this over and over. I've cited Blu-ray advantages for games every time a fanboy waves the "EVERYTHING IS OPTIONAL WITH 360" flag. I've been telling you always that your games could have possible been gimped, or how much potential they could have reached had 360 had an HD-DVD drive capable of reading quad-layered HD-DVDs. Did you listen? Of course not, you chose to be deaf AND blind.

Anyway, the same thing will happen to games that REQUIRE to be on a single disc; you know, type-of game (example), racing games (PGR4), sports games (Winning Eleven), fighting games (Tekken 6), open-ended RPG/Adventure games (like Zelda or Oblivion), and sandbox games (GTA4). Some of these games have been gimped to fit on 360s lame DVD9, or will be gimped, or will not come out on 360, or will not be entirely a next-gen experience.

Every time it'll be worse, since developers will keep looking for ways to make their games require more data to look, feel and react better, yet still fit on the same amount of RAM. That is, you'll have to be able to stream all the info. of the disc at any almost any point in the game.

For all of those saying it's too expensive to create so much data, just remember (or know) that developers actually create Terabytes of data per game, so 50 Gigabytes isn't really that much (not to mention 8.5 Gigs).

For you saying that Blu-ray discs are more expensive for developers, simply put, a two disc DVD game case with the two discs will cost the same, or even more than the Blu-ray case. A DVD9 costs 50 cents, while a Blu-ray disc costs somewhere between 1.15 and 1.25 bucks (which isn't much anyway); but that's only for small shippments (HD movie studios). Since game studios ship a lot more discs, their prices are cheaper (not so for DVD, since they're already as cheap as they can get).

So, if you ship a two DVD game, instead of a Blu-ray game, the game cases will be more expensive, including the discs, at least marginally. After that, the costs keep growing the more discs you add. Blue Dragon is a 3 disc game and it's only the beginning of this generation.

Furthermore, if you want to make a multiple disc game, you have to repeat information on several discs (yes, you might also do that to speed loading times on Blu-ray, but then again that's what the HDD is for). My point with this is that testing multiple disc games is a nightmare. And if your game requires more than 8.5 Gigabytes to stream ANYTIME in the game, you're screwed. So this makes the game even more expensive (an inherently worse game is more expensive since its quality goes down and sales go down and therefore it costs the bottomline; furthermore, it takes a lot more time (and therefore money) to test multiple disc games).

And last but not least, a Blu-ray disc can give you a lot more freedom to use the space. I don't just mean higher-res textures, or uncompressed video and audio. I mean the fact that you can deliver a single SKU for the whole world (NTSC, PAL and HD; multiple languages). That saves logistics and shipping costs. Not so on DVD9. What game would use that, say you? Well, multiplatform games, ones that have to fit on a DVD9, can use the advantage of Blu-ray to ship every single version of the game (when it comes to languages and regions). That is one of the reasons why Sony made the PS3 games region free.

In the end, Blu-ray was the right choice for Sony (leverage for the format), developers (saving costs), and gamers (getting better games).

Edit:

Why disagree if you are not going to read? Can anyone comment and read? If you are not going to read, why even bother to reply?

... *sigh*

[Daz]

Im cant be bothered to read all that lol, Pgr 4 will be good whatever (MY OPINION) 1 or 2 disc, so 222 comments of fanboys fighting what a lovley would this is lol.
Developers should put mutiplayer on 1 disc and single on another problem solved.

[Whoooop]

@ Daz

Problem not solved..

We are talking about content that would make the game better and more real left out the single player because of limited space.

@ Daz below

Misread what you wrote. Yeah it is a better deal to do that.

Still apparently devs are trying to avoid at any cost to make the game in 2 disks.

Maybe the data won't even fit without the multiplayer, who knows?

But yeah 1 disk the single player, the other one the multiplayer seems a much better deal for gamers.

[Daz]

Wheres the mutiplayer fit then on nothing lol

Put mutiplayer on another disc then add more cars and textures and so on to single player.

[Bathyj]

I'm going to stay out of it mostly. I just want to say a couple of things and I'm done.

You cant blame PS3 fanboys for going off like this. Well some a too extreme. But all we've been hearing the last year is BluRay isnt needed. Its not for games, only for movies. DVD will be enough for 6 more years. We love compression. And we were basically hounded at every turn because PS3 has BR.

Please try and see it not as a fanboy but as a neutral observer. Devs were having problems last gen with some games on PS2 already pushing the limits. How could DVD still be ok for 6-7 more years and if they are, why change at all? Will M$ still have DVD next gen. I something going to happen for them to suddenly need more space or has that already happened with the move to HD visuals?

I keep hearing, but this fits on a DVD and that fits on a DVD. Thats because they were designed to from the very start. Your very first step in the design process of a game is a bottleneck.

Multiple disc you say. People will only like Multiple disc on RPG's and that it. Even on an adventure game its fairly unheard of and the fact is if a Dev has something really cool they'd like to include, but it would mean going to 2 disc's it will probably get let out all together.

But thats what DLC is for. Please. DLC is when a dev FINISHES a game and decides later to add extra content. Epic are renouned for this on PC. This sort of DLC is robbery EA style. Having content finished when the game is finished and then selling it to you separately. Thats disraceful.

The way I see it, its like saying to an artist, paint me a masterpiece landscape, but do it on this tiny little canvas. You can use 3 colours and you only get one tube of each. Thats DVD. BluRay is, paint me the same thing, but heres the keys to my paint shop, grab what you need.

I think it was a mistake to make an Xbox without a HD. That was the best thing about the first one. I think it was a mistake to not adopt a next gen media. That could have been the best thing for their future.

All I want is for one Xbox fan to stand up, take his blinkers off and admitt that BR is a good thing for games and DVD is limited and should die out this gen. (Not for movies but for games, at least on next gen consoles, unlike the Wii)

[snittolo]

Nice to see a neutral stance on this topic. I own both systems myself but in the future I see myself with more major titles purchased on my PS3 (and cool mini-games like SuperStardust HD and calling all cars) because of the format it uses. Debate multi-disks or saying DVD9 can handle it no need for Blue Ray, but next summer it will be possible to see this topic start it's decline as more games are released/announced. By then I'm sure more will start changing their minds with DVD9s.

[Bathyj]

I'm no saint Dude. Although I like my XB it's well know I prefer my PS3.

I just think this is a real problem, that people wont admit to and I have since X360 first released.

M$ have not only hamstrung themselves but by not having a HD mandatory and not having a bigger disc medium and because mulitplatform games always have to take the lowest common denominator into consideration they have also to a degree at least crippled this entire generation. Think about it, if Madden 2011 comes up with some new photo realistic engine that calculates individual players weight momentums and strengths, injury and this and that yada yada yada, but it wont fit on a DVD, chances are the PS3 version will be dumbed down so they can continue to spit out game after game in EA's cookie cutter fashion.

Anyway, thank god for 1st parties.

[i Shank u]

as a 360 owner i gotta say, hell yes DVD9 is a limitation. but not nearly as grim a one as some make it out to be. I think a really good idea for multi disc games outside of RPGs, would be to take Gears of war for example, and split it up into two discs, one for single player, one for Multi. I think if they and other games did this, there would be less a costraint. Im not in the industry so i dont know how much of a challenge this is, but I know personally I sure as hell wouldnt mind swapping discs when going to play multiplayer, especially if that meant the single player game could be longer.

Obviously racing games, sandbox games, and other games where you need access to any part of the game at any given time dont apply here. But i cant see a reason why Gears of War could have had a long, deep campaign on one disk and all the MP on the other, except that that's not what the devs wanted to do.

[Odion]

man there are a lot of people in here posting who don't own a 360 nor like the 360.

[Whoooop]

and that doesn't stop you from posting crap on PS3 news and articles too. right???

so deal with it :)

[DaEnforcer]

It's official now. Xbox ThreeFixMe is crapping on all fronts :)

[Nuclear Death]

You should go to school and learn spelling and puntuation before typing.

On topic ===> this comes as no surprise. The 360 was not built for the longhaul. Everyone already knows this, even Peter Moore; something will always be limited on this system simply because of it's inherent vice; however, the games that the 360 has lined up against the PS3 this year will be competetive, it's next year's games and the year after that, that 360 owners will really start to see how basic the system really is compared to the CELL + Blu-ray + RSX. Looks like Bizarre Creations is finding out the hard way.

[Daz]

I dont really care, its the interent not a exam for f0ck sake.
Tell me teacher i type bad on the internet and its an offence to some people why?
Im not good a puntunation so what does it affect you? seems like it.
No one is perfect if you think you are there something wrong with you.

[tomfoolery]

and demolishes the ps3.Who cares Sonytards,just try to stay in your own
ps3 section on this site,you little drama queens.

[ARog34]

So, your saying the 360 is dead in 2 years... and what do you think the Xbox 3 could have in it that will ever be close to competing with the PS3??? Blu-ray??? Haha, watch what you say...

[Bill Gates]

It's about CHOICE people.....AHHAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHH AHAHAHHAHHAHA

DVD9 = ME ROTFLMFAO!!!!....HAHAHAHAHAHHA HHAHA

[Whoooop]

This bubble reset gave some momentum to the one bubble wonders..

[medziarz]

it's been happening all month now, but this time it really hit the spot:

xbots, you're getting OWNED!
again.

third generation console, third generation storage medium, simple.

[ARog34]

360 games are already using max capacity on games? That doesn't sound too good... PGR should have thought about PS3 and Blu-ray and they would only be using half the disk.

[Odion]

why is this such a big deal its not going to ruin the game that we don't have night time textures.

cough

To counter this issue, however, Bizarre points to the game's varied lighting models: "For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy."

[Devilbringer]

i just read over 200 comments ! of fanboyism. facts and lies. now i can sleep. cya tomorrow. feeling abit dizzy tho :(

[Kornster671]

Make mulitple disks. RPGs, RTS, and FPS can do it. Make part of the game come in the form of a download. Like in the game case there is a 'code' that you input in the market place to get your download. Or you make an option to install part of the game onto your HDD if you have space. They will have to pick one because I doubt Microsoft will want to make a Blu-ray or HD-DVD drive.

[sjappie]

I'm not too worried about dvd-9, the upcoming games seem to be great, so why would I be? Maybe MS should've waited as long as ps3 to come out and include a next gen disc format drive, but remember, I was happily playing my 360 back in 2005 and I still am and going to be in the years to come. Some of ps3 big games are coming out late 2008 begin 2009, by that time
I'll be almost ready to buy a new gen console(xbox).

I'm not saying it's not better to have more storage, cause the more the better off course, I just don't think it's going to affect the games on 360 that much.

[PS3Rebel]

its hilarious and i mean F'n hilarious how these MS ppl are trying o play off that DVD9 is ok hahahahaha u MS ppl complain that PS3 are paying 599 for bluray but look at u - paying 399 for a DVD9 HAHAHAHAH who's the stupid looking 1 now huh hahahaha at least i can say i have the most up to date HD DVD player - what the hell can u say?? next time ur at wal-mart go to the dvd section and see what a standard DVD goes for hahahah 20.00 - ya thats rite its all sale - go run - tell ur friends DVD9 is the future

u ppl are sooo hurting..u know what shut up - dont even bother replying - go change that disc 1 to disc 2 and wait there till ur friend is done playing threw disc 2 then enter disc 3 lol hahahaha

u ppl are sooo funny - i would like you MS ppl to list what the xbox had in the first 8 months of launch and ill reply back with why the PS3 is dominating - its always easy for u guys 2 judge a console when the console u side for is a year ahead lol would have been a different story if they launched at the sametime - MS knew this - and now they are paying a billion dollars for their stupid mistake - what game did u have out around this time hmmmm dead rising ooooo lets compare that to heavenly sword or lair lol i think that was their best game around this time no??

so ms ppl pls prove me wrong

[FordGTGuy]

I put you on my ignore list proof and factual for Everyone 10+.

[i Shank u]

as someone who you ignorantly call a "ms ppl", my reply to you is you sound like a fanturd, and so, you dont deserve a reply. until you have played lair or all the way through heavenly sword, dont talk about them like you have. it makes your lack of intelligence stand out like paris hiltons' pu$$y lips when getting out of a car.

[BrownPowerzz]

You should not have ONE single bubble, breadhead!!

[DeZimatoR]

Woot, this thread is funny!

MS fans is go bananas!

[sjappie]

I loved 360 from the start, love the games I've been playing for over 1.5 years now, love the games that are coming up for 360.
The ps3 however, has absolutely no games, and games coming out for it, that make me wanna have one, honestly.
So have fun with it, I'm just fine with my 360.

[Unknown]

that denies that more is NOT better is playing themselves. And thats coming from a 360 owner. I LOVE my 360 for the content that it has now and has coming up in the future. I just played RFOM on the PS3 and had a blast. I think when the games start rolling in I will get one. This thread is funny for several reasons: 1) ALL the negative comments are coming from(of course) PS3 owners who really didn't give a d@mn about PGR4 in the first place. Yet they are posting like flies on $hit because its an easy shot at xbots(whoever made that name for 360 owners thanx, I like the sound of that lol). 2) I like the fact that the majority of the posts, from both sides, have an "expert" opinion on the "storage" issues. I'm sure some people know or have an idea what they are talking about, but I feel the great majority is simply pulling doo doo from their butts.

I feel that if the xbots were... as a fan bois would say, "naive" enough to buy a system with "last gen" storage then thats them. YOU didn't so CONGRATULATIONS!!! You don't have to worry about that on the PS3. Consoles cater to different people. Some people don't care about having 18 discs others do. I just happy that I'm open minded enough to see the good in both systems instead of just bash one to h3ll. Out.

[Odion]

dude we don't care, have you read that the only people getting worked up in this post are PS3 fanboys

[Kyur4ThePain]

you can't stay away, can you?
I bet this is just eating you up inside.

[Lex Luthor]

Everyone, they have sorted out the problem. There is no need for sony fanboys to troll this thread anymore, i know your ps3 are gathering dust again after the 10 second heavenly sword demo(i've played it), but please just go away and take a nap; you've got high school early 2moro.

[Raptors]

Well, think of it this way. Had 360 released with an HD-DVD drive built in would it have the lead it has now? No. I personally prefer the xbox experience over the playstation experience however Sony's fanbase is far too strong for Microsoft. There is no way that Microsoft could've sold the 360 at the same price as the ps3 and expect to win the current gen battle. Microsoft needed an advantage over Sony and it chose it on two fronts, rush the 360 to the market to have the year advantage and to also be significantly cheaper. At the end of the day M$ chose the right decision to release their games on DVD9 even though it might come as an inconvenience to some. The price point is the 360's biggest selling point and without it Sony would catch up with relative ease. But like I said before, is it really too much for us to get up and change a disc? If getting up to change a disc is saving me $200 then so be it.

[BIadestarX]

Ohh look at all the Sony fanboys... they are so worry/concern about the games not fitting and content being cut off xbox 360 games... They are not here to bash the xbox 360 at all... They believe that microsoft can go on and switch the drive after 2 years in the market, and add blu-ray or HD DVD drive for games...
Seriously why else would they keep bring this up; knowing that the xbox 360 spects it is what it is? If not for bashing... they for what?

Good thing, in reality developers will simply work around this limitation... the same way they will work around if the game they would love to make requires 1.5 GB of ram... or if they would like everyone to have a T1 internet connection.

The same way it happened with the PS1... will happen now.. we will have a handful of games in multiple disks and the majority in single disks... There are lots of games on the xbox 360 now.. that are not even using half of the DVD9.

If Sony wouldnt have special interest on blu-ray aside from games.. I would give the need for extra space more importance...

Take a look at the PSP... more space.. more power.. and it's getting destroyed by the DS in terms of sells... and even volume and quality of games.

And let's not forget you people are paying for blu-ray... I don't mind switching disks for the 1 game I may have that comes in more than one disk after 20-30 hours of gameplay if I can save $200 in the process. heck... I can buy me 4 games with that... which means I will have to get up to switch them...

[Phantom_Lee]

just another day on N4G....see u guys tomorrow...

[Monty_The_Great]

actually read this article? And yes this is just another day on N4G.

[PS3Rebel]

u cant prove me wrong because im right - its ok u xbots - ppl that have a brain know all this so its ok..ppl like urself are the ppl that ride on the special bus and take abit longer to understand things

this is why u ppl brinmg up stupid comments like "i have my games now and u can wait for ur games like 10 years" see ppl like that are blind and 4get that at this time what did the xbox360 have so great?? nothing - we have RFOM and motorstorm that ruin anything that the 360 had in its foirst 4 mnths and with games like HS and lair - which by the way i dont need to play because we all know are AAA titles and just the graphics alone is worth my 60 bucks

then their are stupid ppl that say "PS3 is so much the PS3 ppl need a reason to justify their purchase" hmmm after u buy ur wifi - HDDVD add etc etc the price isnt that far off..id rather pay 599 for the bluray player alone rather 399 for a dvd player...and if bluedragon 4 disc game isnt a indication of how weak the system is by adding a game already on 4 disc..then seek help..4 disc was PS1 and PS2 - this is next gen - that shouldnt be happening anymore

[Genki]

One of the may things that stuck out was your comment on the HDD.

I also thought that was one of the best features of the original XBox as well. I honestly didn't see the need for one until I saw how well it was implemented...by the piracy.

With that said, I think one of the reasons for no standard HDD was the piracy that ran RAMPANT on the original box, because I knew enough people that had them with several games and emulators stored on their HDD's.

I could be wrong, but I think that may have had something to do with it.

[likeaboss302]

Just release a firmware update that lets the HD DVD player play games. Then release the games in two sku's like they did for the PC with CD and DVD versions. The 30GB HD DVD should have plenty of storage for now.

[DirtyRat]

That sir is actually a very good idea, have a bubble

[batman2million]

haha the poor sony fan boys can have all the space they want! but you don't have the games!
and now im gonna get flamed with those...lair, heavenly sword, blah blah.

there are over 4 million halo 3 reservations! there aren't even that many ps3's sold!

Go ahead, u guys can have all the space you want- while we get the games!

[i Shank u]

this has nothing to do with topic, but if any of you want some comic relief, check out this video of a guy pulled over for DUI

[BubblesDAVERAGE]

You guys are funny saying that the ps3 has to install games..funny thing is that only reason 360 dose not do it is because HDD is not standard on the 360.

[Bill Gates]

But,but,but..Oblivion is on DVD9....but,but,but.....Ah screw you "Fony" droids...

Blu-ray is OWNING you XBOTS left & right. You BABOONS were (no excuse me) STILL ARE, too dumb to see ten feet infront of you.

"DVD9 is more than enough".....HAHHAHHAHAHA

Now this is where M$ comes in and rips you XBOTS a new one with the ILLUSION of gettting more with downloadable content.

M$ is using something called giving the consumer the "ILLUSION OF CHOICE", and you people fell for it real hard....HAHHAHHAHHAHA

[cuco33]

dude... seriously.. i hate your no-life fanboyistic comments, they are beyond annoying. if i knew who you were, i'ld kick your mother's uterus for producing an idiot like yourself

ever think some people enjoy ALL forms of gaming? wether it be pc, wii, 360 or ps3? some, like myself, don't swallow loads from one camp preaching as if you earned a paycheck to act a fool

[Trick Nolte]

@ the magnitude of responses over this. Classic :D

[Wile]

Over in the EGM ratings for Lair are true thread, fanboys are calm and respectful (for the most part). But here the sony "supporters" are going crazy childish Rabid! Good show people.

EDIT: I take it back, EGM ratings for Lair are true thread is just as bad now. *sigh*

[ta1snake]

So size does matter. huh? LOL

[Phantom_Lee]

nooooo....wait...I mean yeaaaaaa....

[Figboy]

you seem to be missing what i'm trying to imply.

i'm talking about a game unlike *ANY OTHER out there.

a game that doesn't just fit into the standards we've set for ourselves these past 6 or 7 years with the PS2 and original X Box.

remember, Crackdown is a 2nd generation 360 game. GTA IV is also a second generation game.

i'm talking about a *MASSIVE creative undertaking to truly push the boundaries of what a format like Blu Ray can do.

once again; a game, with *FIVE INDIVIDUAL PLANETS, each the size of Oblivion.

this is not possible on a DVD9. it just *ISN'T. but it is possible on a Blu Ray disc, and even a dual layer HD DVD.

*TRUE next gen games will be too large for a single dual layer DVD.

this won't be a problem for very short next gen games (ie Gears of War), but a larger capacity disc will be *VITAL for larger world, sandbox style games.

i don't doubt that Mass Effect and GTAIV will be *OUTSTANDING pieces of software, but i'm talking about 4th and 5th generation games, not just 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. it's going to take a massive ammount of understanding of the PS3's architecture, and how Blu Ray fits into it, to get a game like the one i'm proposing out there. not to mention a monumental ammount of dough.

my point is that, you can start to imagine worlds (or more appropriately, *SOLAR SYSTEMS) in the scale that i'm talking about, because of technology like Blu Ray.

i'm not condeming DVD9, i'm just saying that technology has evolved. much like cartridges evolved into CD, CD into DVD, what is DVD going to evolve into? Blu Ray or HD DVD, though Blu Ray has the upper hand, and will probably ultimately prevail over HD DVD.

some people just don't want to acknowledge that each console generation has brought about a newer, larger storage format with it. that's simply *FACT.

[Figboy]

i actually *AM concerned about content being cut from 360 games.

see, with the 360 having a higher install base than the PS3, and therefore the lead platform for most multi-platform titles, i'm very much concerned that game vital features will be cut from a title all together, and the PS3 version will be affected, due to the 360's lack of a higher medium for game storage.

i don't care about loosing visual fidelity, but what i do care about is if, say, a two player, offline co-op mode was cut from the 360 version, and since the PS3 version was launching day and date, *THAT got cut too. me and my fiance are dying for more games to play together, so that would suck for us (this is just a hypothetical situation to make my point, of course).

it also concerns this PS3 owner, as i plan on buying a 360 at some point in the future, so when i hear that even *EXCLUSIVE 360 games are encountering trouble with the disc limitations, that doesn't endear much faith in the 360 on my part.

i'm dying to play Mass Effect, and Bioshock, right? so what happens when their inevitable *SEQUELS come out?

aren't most sequels expected to be *BIGGER and *BETTER than their predecessors?

i'd hate for critics to say that Mass Effect 2 was more of the same, because the developers didn't have the room to include the things they cut out of Mass Effect 1 *AND the new features they wanted to include in Mass Effect 2.

or, even worse, they *REMOVE standard Mass Effect or Bioshock features from the previous edition, specifically to make room for the newer features, that may or may not be as good as the standard.

as long as things like this start to stack up against the 360 from a creative standpoint, the longer i'll sit back and wait until a final resolution is reached concerning this issue.

the history of the gaming industry has shown me that larger storage capacity has been *ESSENTIAL to the growth of the industry. if not, then we'd still be playing games on floppy discs and NES cartridges.

it's foolish to think that DVD would last *FOREVER. a newer standard was bound to show up, people just seemed really pissed that it's backed by Sony, and HD DVD seems to be faltering.

[beardtm]

Games can be too big you know.

Five times the size of oblivion?

Get real, whos gonna make that, who wants to play a game that big.

[Firestorm]

5 times the size of oblivion would be a bit much and I dont think any devs will ever put in the time and resources to make a game of such a size.

PS3 owners make too big a deal of Blu Ray. I dont really care about the extra space that blu ray has, to be fair they could always use multiple dvds and although some may see this as an inconvenience, it's still faster than waiting on ps3's crappy 2x BD drive to load, or even having to install you console games. Also, pretty much every multiplatform game looks/runs better on 360 and 360's exclusives are looking better than ps3's with their terrible textures. So where is this supposed advantage?

[bootsielon]

Oblivion re-uses a lot of textures and other assets. Furthermore, it was meant to be a launch title, making it NOT utilize every strength of the system. Also, Oblivion was meant to fit on a DVD9 from the start. It's really stupid to cite oblivion when it's such an old game, as if it was the holy grail of gaming.

What comes next, Mass Effect? Oh wait. You know, for a reason it almost fills a DVD9. My bet is that they have already sacrifised something (more like a lot) in the game (why? because whenever you create a game you create tons of assets that easily surpass the capacity of the disc you're using). And remember, you have to keep everything on ONE DISC. Mass effect is one of those games where you'll be wanting to go ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. So there's no use in making it a two disc game, since it would be unusable.

What matters is not that some random games actually fit. It's that some of the most important franchises this generation, for example PGR4, 2 Days to Vegas and GTA4, are gimped by Xbox 360's lame format.

Oh, and Firestorm... the "crappy" 2x BD drive argument doesn't hold any water. That's why you have an HDD on every system; to REDUCE loading times. And since nearly every game on Xbox 360 utilizes dual-layered DVDs, your loading times will be almost equally slow as a 2x BD drive; except of course, you can't use the HDD to reduce them, even if you bought it.

[btkadams]

umm... why do devs for each console keep bashing the console they're working on? seems kinda stupid to me for a dev to be badmouthing the hand that feeds them aha. but i honestly believe they're having trouble fitting stuff onto one disc. but thats why its not out yet, they're still sorting it out. dont worry 360 dudes, itll be fine by release.

[Sgt_Bon3head]

Nothing in this world is perfect, not even your 'godlike' PS3. So just live with it. If u really want to brag about Blu-Ray, you can do it at the Sony forums...not here. If you guys think that PS3 is all that great then why can't it beat crysis graphics-wise, not even an inch close to it. Stupid fanboys.....

[SuperSaiyan4]

There is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING special about that stupid RSX!! FFS people get over it!!!! Its just an obsolete 7800 GPU!!!!!

The Xbox 360 GPU is 1yr ahead in technology and wipes the floor with it.

The CELL is the main player in the graphics area for the PS3, the RSX is just there to help a bit, the CELL will do most of the work for the missing features of the RSX like HDR+AA, Multi texturing etc.

[celticlonewolf]

I think what some people havent thought of is 1 no one knows if this article is actualy true(i mean look at oblivion they managed to have lighting effect in every single part of there huge world) plus when it comes to programing you do not have to creat every sinlge texture again it is run through a program called starbreeze(well thats one of the types of programs that handle that stuff)2 although blue ray has much more space than dvd9 which is a great thing the compresion tech are pritty really good now so maybe ms were thinking that they could strech it this gen and 3 production values people I mean to fill up all of a blue ray dvd with good compresion tech would take so much time and man power that even if teh game was great outstanding the prise of making it would totaly outwigh the return they would get on it(cause they could only sell it on the ps3) goodgaming people

[DirtyRat]

Limitations of disc and memory size are not a new problem, they've existed since the spectrum and commodore days, developers have always had to cut back features they would have liked to impliment because of this, and generally they make a good job of deciding what is important to the game or not.

Obviously this extra content didn't warrant having a second disc, as the developers seem to have decided it wasn't important enough - if they had decided it was important to the game they would have used another disc, its as simple as that really.

Blu Ray is a better disc format, there is no question about that, but the majority of current games will fit on a DVD-9 quite adequately.

To give an example of last gen, look at God of War it was massive for a PS2 game in terms of game length, and graphical quality, yet with advances in compression technology they were able to cram it all on one disc.

[FirstknighT]

And the 360 has shown to be superior in every way. Motorstorm and Resistance used most of the bluray disc and both games were short. Resistance 10-12 hrs gameplay and Motorstorm with a few tracks. No advantage on bluray yet.

Games like Mass Effect show that bluray is not needed.

[The Wood]

not sure what game you 'weren't playing' but you're well off.
Just accept that dvd9 is 1 of the 360's weaknesses and size does matter don't let her/him tell you different.

Great devs will do their best and work with what they have as we have seen in some games but the future dvd9 MAY be an issue

[DaEnforcer]

...some xbot is dissing BD, stick this article in his face and laugh your ass off

[Chava]

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sorry everybody, my dog took over the computer AGAIN
he's a fanboy

[Wile]

Just when I was getting back some of my faith in the human race I read this.

[Cook1eMan]

Why are people havinga fight over this kind of crap. Half you people dont even know what your talking about. Why would microsoft give sony a game that they are making? Duh, Does this article specify if it's a regular dvd or Dual layer DVD? No. The man is saying that he cant fit it on a DVD which is 4.7Gb I believe, but it can fit on a dual layer DVD (9.?Gb I believe). The thing is that DL-DVD's are more expensive. For me I dont want to some game that lasts forever cause they have 30Gb to screw around with. I want quality not quantity.

[bootsielon]

"Does this article specify if it's a regular dvd or Dual layer DVD? No. "

It doesn't need to, since it's obvious. It doesn't really matter since they can use BOTH, at the choice of developer, according to the size of the game.

"The man is saying that he cant fit it on a DVD which is 4.7Gb I believe, but it can fit on a dual layer DVD (9.?Gb I believe)."

Eh... no. If a game can't fit on a game format, they're, by matters of likelihood, using the highest capacity format.

And by the way, a DVD9 has 8.5 Gigabytes of space; I heard that Xbox 360 used less, somewhere in the high 7 Gigabytes, but for the sake of the argument, let's say it's 8.5.

"The thing is that DL-DVD's are more expensive."

What a ridiculous excuse. Yeah, a DVD9 costs 50 cents, and a DVD5 costs a little bit less than that. How is that important on a 60 dollar SKU? Especially when this is a FLAGSHIP AAA Xbox 360 car game, not a random game. A triple A game isn't focused on budgets; it's focused on quality, no matter if they have to use double layer discs.

"For me I dont want to some game that lasts forever cause they have 30Gb to screw around with. I want quality not quantity."

They don't have to last forever. They don't have to use the space. In fact, they could simply add more quality (instead of "quantity" or lenght) to the game just by having the space. Cases in point?

PGR4, Forza 2, GTA4, 2 Days to vegas, The Getaway, L.A. Noire, Bully, GT5, Tekken 6, Virtua Fighter (the next one, as evidently this one was fine; for now), Soul Calibur 4, Winning Eleven, Madden, FIFA, Oblivion, Mass Effect, Zelda, Shadow of the Colossus, ICO, and so on.

In other words, sandbox games, fighting games, sports games, racing games, and open-ended adventure/action/RPG games.

These are games that could benefit from a high capacity disc, namely Blu-ray. Sony could eventually decide to release 100 or even 200 GB discs for commercial game use (perhaps even movie use), since after all, they are compatible with any reader out there (not burner, but PS3 doesn't need to burn discs).

[THAMMER1]

MASS EFFECT

[bootsielon]

Mass Effect barely fits on a DVD9. Is that supposed to happen when the next Xbox is supposed to come not before 2011 (as in at least 4 more years)? If anything, it's testament to how Xbox 360 and/or the game are (or will be) gimped. Sorry for the bad news.

Edit:

I love how people disagree without explaining why.

[BISHOP-BRASIL]

No... You did it...

Now somebody will post a PS3 game with more words. Than another one will post a list with the good PS3 games on this year. Than somebody will put a 360 games list... Than another one will come and even take 'the better' platform from what takes more words in the list...

This could be a serious report, but the mature took all the place. That's why fanboys are bad, don't matter the side they choose. I'm shamed to be a PS fan right now.

[riksweeney]

In the game, you'll still get the choice of playing at night, except when you do, it'll ask you to turn the brightness of your TV right down, and then click to continue.

[midgard229]

this is also the reason why team ninja had to take alot of stuff out of DOA 4, make the endings short and have the game have less costumes.
Now in DOA 5 he's removing tag team because he needs the space....bah why be limited

[Capt CHAOS]

So, why the big deal? Are we talking about cut scenes?

[midgard229]

if u think for a second, PC games Install on ur Computer, they dont just play off the disk. goodness, think before u speak lol!!!

[Rama26285]

Would someone be able to summarize what is being said here? Over 300 comments is waaaay too many to read.

[sandip787]

thats because you install parts of the game onto your hard drive on your pc. and pc games use more of the disk than 360 dvd games, about 800mb more.
how the hell can anyone compare this to final fantasy 7? the game came out, what nearly 10 years ago? you didnt mind swapping disks with that so you dont mind doing it nowadays? oh great logic there, why not use cds for games then? hell i dont mind swapping disks 20 times if need be. that is just stupid and you all know it.
its poeple like you that slow down progression

[badkolo]

This gen really does not need more then dvd9, and its a simple solution, do what all previous gens have doen and if need be use 2 discs, dreamcast,ps1,ps2,xbox1 all used multiple discs when needed and none of us made fun of it becuase we all had to deal with it for all systems, now that the ps3 chose blueray they are secured for only 1 blueray disc. but at the cost of having the ps3 being 600 bucks.

card reader could have been left out and just use usb.

lets be honest. wouldnt you have rather that they added more memory and left out wifi and cardreader, that way the ps3 would be top dog.
blureray could have been a add on and the ps3 would be killing rightnow.

wifi did not need to included, it could have been a tiny addon and lowered the price.

360 using dvd9 is fine with me but not including a hd in every sku was a very bad choice, the core should have came witha built in 5 gigs just to solve this issue.

so its not really the dvd9 thats the issue its the HD not being in the core thats the problem. it hold back devs from doing other things. also with a hd then you could do like the ps3 and store it on the hd, or parts of it so only 1 dvd9 would be needed at all times.

again, the ps3 did good by adding everything this time, but they screwed themselves becuase it is 600 bucks. ms took the smartest route, they can lower prices more effectively when need be then the ps3 can.

ms knew the hd in xbox1 was well recieved and should have stuck with that thinking.

[gunnerforlife]

some people r just stupid wat would u rather have a complete game that has many many level intact or a game that has many level on the origianl game or would u rather pay for those extra levels because thats wats gone happene ur gone have too pay $100 or £ to play every level of the game.wouldent u rather just bye the game with many levels and then bye some extra levels via live

[Sayai jin]

You guys do realize that this has been debuked by the develooper of this game, right?