Red Faction Maxes out Xbox 360 - Volition turn to Xbox 720

In an interview with Gameplayer regarding Red Faction: Guerrilla, producer Rick White claims that they have maxed out the power of the Xbox 360 and have already starting looking towards the Xbox 720 for their next projects. Full interview through the link.

[BRACHATTACK]

And this game doesn't even look that great IMO.

I'm sure they haven't even covered 60% of the ps3's power.

[NewZealander]

big claims, but considering ive seen better looking games then this allready it just looks like another case of a dev trying all too hard to make there game sound like the best thing ever.

[Sucks2BU]

he does say they had to downgrade the graphics to make the destruction work smoothly. I bet they could refine that over time!

[Carbide7]

"Gameplayer: So you’re saying that RFG is pushing the hardware as far as it can go? Squeezing every drop of juice out of the Xbox 360?
Rick White: Yeah, we’ve got it to the point where we can’t even put an extra vehicle into a world, because it’ll blow the memory. Every little change we make we have to be hyper-critical about it because it could just bring the whole system down. We evaluate every little change in the game, and then we run our tools on it to make sure it isn’t going to break the game and then we move forward, so it really is about pushing the engine as far as we can, and pushing the hardware as far as we can, and then looking at what is the next set of hardware that’s going to come out. Where can we take it then? You know we’re already thinking about if we had XYZ X number of years from now, what would we do with our engine?"

The 360 is basically average PC hardware of today, developers know a lot about it, and they can be sure when they've pushed it, but with the PS3, it's new stuff, they're discovering new ways to use that incredible "number crunching" ability and utilize that for graphics/ physics etc.

[MNicholas]

He says

"We’re pushing so many polys with the destruction system it’s not going to look like your Gears of War 2. Part of what we’ve had to do over the past four years is not only come up with this tech – which we’re calling the Red Engine - but figure out the perfect balance."

This is what's been said for ages by anyone who understand how unified shaders (the 360's GPU's design) work. The more polys you have the lower your pixel pushing ability. It's always a trade-off.

The PS3's strength is that it has atleast as much pixel shader performance as the 360 when running a game with a very light polygon load. However as your polygon load increases, the 360's pixel shader capacity decreases (because it uses the same hardware component for pixel and vertex operations) while the PS3's shader capacity remains unaffected.

Now, having said that, increasing polygon count can cause problems for RSX in other ways. Luckily, there's a little something called the Cell which can outperform RSX in pixel or vertex shader operations by itself. The Cell can kick the polygon count into the stratosphere, cull unused polys (so RSX doesnt have to shader hidden pixels) and you have graphics that are not only more complex in terms of polygons, lighting and textures but also resolution and frame-rate.

GT5 Prologue vs PGR4

Number of cars: 16 vs 8
Polygons per car: 200,000 vs 100,000
Resolution: 1.38M Pixels per frame vs 0.92M pixels per frame
Frame-rate: 60fps vs 30fps

What you're seeing is a massive difference in performance that's not just obvious when viewed on a 60" 1080P TV but even on tiny low-res web-videos. The photorealism of GT5 Prologue is obvious at any resolution.

[gamesmaster]

very informative, i think we can see developers really getting to grips with the technology. the further into this architectures life cycle the better it will get. this is a good time for gaming.

[StephanieBBB]

So I can see where this guy is coming from. But graphically it's far from "09 standard".

[Sergeant Osiris]

great to see someone else on here with some knowledge. This is the kind of stuff the fanboys hate because they are completely out of their element. Those in the know, KNOW the 360 can't touch the PS3. It's just silly to see trolls trying to mislead the uneducated.

[patterson]

That was a good read.
Very interesting.

Bubbles for you.

[meepmoopmeep]

wow, good informative read, mate

+1

[mikeslemonade]

360 is already maxed out since Gears 2. Epic knows the 360 better than anyone else. The Red Faction developer is 3rd party.

[meepmoopmeep]

well, Epic knows best for UE3
and technically, they're 3rd party.

that's why no one can get to Gears quality besides the makers themselves using that engine.

[solidsnakus]

lol volitions saints row 2 has piss poor graphics. dont blame the hardware cause other devs have alot better looking games.

[phosphor112]

You'd think it would take a lot of horsepower. That's kind of sad that he is saying it's pushing the 360 to its limits.

@MNicholas
Great to see that someone else at least knows something about technology. I didn't know many games used culling though.

[Elven6]

Isn't that another way of him saying they used the ram to it's limits? Add more to the processor and the frame rate drops, add more then your ram can handle and your program fails.

[Sarcasm]

Ah my god, after reading MNicholas there is hope for N4G afterall. Good post, everybody give the guy as many bubbles as possible.

[LinuxGuru]

Hey Lord Vader - ignoramus - yeah, you.

Killzone 2 and Uncharted 1 and 2 (you know....pretty much some of the best, if not THE best looking games this generation) have no install. Now shut up and go away.

[Rhoic]

Lol.. this guy is full of it.. Far Cry 2 beats this game in graphics (definitely) and (probably) physics.. My friends are playing it right now, and it's one of the nicest games ever created.

Also, EPIC never stated that they maxed out the 360's capabilities. They even stated that they could do nicer stuff than Gears on the 360. But I guess a fanboy would say something like that, especially when a game like Alan Wake looks nicer than Gears of War 2, and hasn't even come out yet. But no, totally! They totally maxed out the 360 (sarcasm).

[plain rice]

Lord Vader, you are very, very misinformed. Streaming data off the hard drive will NOT, I repeat WILL NOT IMPROVE graphics. LOL. The only benefits to installing/loading off a hard drive is to minimize texture pop-ins and to decrease load times.

So what your trying to say is that loading data faster off the hdd will push more polygsons on the screen, have better lighting, better textures, etc.....? LOL
-----------

"So when is the PS3 going to "Max out" = when it can run a AAA graphics game WITHOUT streaming off the HDD ?!? "

Why are you calling other people fanboys, when that right there is the very typical ignorant fanboyish comment? Please dude, don't be a hypocrite.

[LinuxGuru]

Dear god RHOIC, stfu. Far Cry 2 does not even begin to touch the physics in Red Faction. Sorry. It can't. Not at all, don't even bother trying to defend that, just watch this video, and then shut the hell up.

Edit:

Go to the open zone POG, for crying out loud GO TO THE OPEN ZONE-------------------------- -->>>>

[LinuxGuru]

And then watch this video and shut the hell up even more:

Then this one too:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[power of Green]

Didn't mean to make you guys mad just wanted to show *MNicholas* Praising PS3 is overrated.

Just wanted to show him the game he is boasting PS3's supposed might with, looks like it has plastic toy cars with virtually no complex prossessing in the back ground or on the surface on objects in comparison to a game on a supposed inferior platform, despite the 360 whooping PS3's ass in every comparison.

I'm sure if devs spent more than half an decade(give or take) on games for the 360 they would blow PS3 titles out of the water.

The sad thing is all this dancing around is going to come back and bite PS3 fans in the ass. I fear the reason they only mentioned the 360 version is because the 360 is their primary platform/fanbase and is the best version to boast and they're comfirming support at the same time. Remember Devs know 360 fans in large don't react like PS3 fans when it comes to what is said about their platform good/bad.

[mynd]

@ Mnicholas. The Cell cant help out with pixel shading at all, only vertex massaging,. The PS3 has a very fixed VS and PS horsepower this is true. But you supposition that as polygon count increase pixel shader power decreases is wrong.
You still put through the same amount of data each triangle, you just doing more triangles.

The only way you VS shader can chew through more horsepower and thus take away form the Pixel shader is if the the vertex shader does more ops than usual.
i.e. You vertex shader is suddenyl doing twice the amount of ops on the vertex, for some weird reason.

Same goes with the pixel shader, if you do some really complex math sin you pixel shader, you use more ops.

i.e. 4 ops for the VS, 16 ops for PS=20 ops per polygon.

Doesn't matter how may polygons you put through, it's still a total of 20 ops.

So. Your completely and utterly wrong.
Nice try.

[thereapersson]

Quit spamming that link in every article GT:5 is mentioned. You're being reported as such.

[lowcarb]

Since the PS3 uses much more integer and less general purpose than the 360 I can easily see it being the console with much better physics. This type of game just works better on PS3 and if they wanted to really to do something with 360 then they would try something different. It makes know since at all for a developer to come out and make a huge claim like this even if true.

[thereapersson]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. There is insurmountable evidence from many different sources that the CELL is a number-crunching, physics-calculating monster. Games like Killzone 2 and Little Big Planet (among others) display powerful physics-based interaction, Little Big Planet especially. That game is like one big, dynamic, customizable physics simulation.

[Doppy]

Graphics don't peak out a consoles. It's the whole package of physics, scales, graphics, environments, etc... Graphics is only a small part of peaking a system.

[ravinash]

"Devs know 360 fans in large don't react like PS3 fans when it comes to what is said about their platform good/bad"

Your kidding right!!!

No, they just openly go out and attack the PS3 like you do every chance you get.

[eagle21]

Blu-ray and CELL all day and forever!

[soxfan2005]

The GT5 vs. Project Gotham Racing 4 comparison in 1.4 is good, except that GT5 does not exist yet, except in demo form. PGR4 has already been available for over a year now. By the time GT5 does get released, PGR4 will be over 2 years older. PGR5 may even be on the market by then. This is like comparing Gears of War 2 vs. Mobile Suit Gundam. Wait until GT5 is released, then compare it to the latest 360 racer, either Forza 3 of PGR5.

[Blitzed]

You should think before you type-

"I'm sure if devs spent more than half an decade(give or take) on games for the 360 they would blow PS3 titles out of the water."

Too Human says hi.

[MNicholas]

I would recommend reading about the fundamental laws of physics (such as conservation of energy) as well as how unified Unified Shader Architecture works before we continue this discussion.

@ Soxfan, GT5 Prologue has been out for some time now and it's a perfectly valid comparison.

[I_am_rushin]

MNicholas copied his statement from a guy on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/tag/v...

[MNicholas]

Might want to check the time stamp on the posts first.

[MUNKYPOO]

lol thats funny. guess your famous now

[The Lazy One]

kudos

@ mNicholas

Why not prove him wrong then? Or are you just going to leave it with the "I'll pretend I'm smarter than you and not dignify your argument with a response in an effort to look like I'm not wrong."

[Rhoic]

Here's the thing.. I was aware maxing out meant MAXING OUT. Graphics, Psychics, CPU usage, GPU Usage etc. Not just one thing.. "Oh we maxed out the capabilities of the CPU for the 360." Great! Good for you. Now how's about you max out the Xenos GPU that can perform 500 million triangles?

[emitsomla]

I am not saying this as an insult, but I am saying this because you guys failed to do your research! VOLITION maxed out on the PS3 long before they maxed out on the 360. In fact, they were able to do a bit more on the 360 because it has more memory than the ps3. More can be done on the 360. Every time I come on here I see sony fanboys putting their foot in there mouths, because they are blind and ignorant, believing the hype that their system defies logic and is somehow more capable to produce more than what it's hardware will allow! (the ps3 has a weaker graphics card and 256 less main memory than the 360) open your eye's, refuse the sony cult... you guys are irrational, borderline crazy...

[silverchode]

not much to max out

[gamesmaster]

exactly, 360 is known territory, max it out in no time. ps3 on the other hand its more unknown i think at least a year off maxing out, but its about the engines and the devs, i'm sure 360 will have more great looking titles to come. but i can see the ps3 pushing past.. killzone, uncharted 2, mgs4 gt5p we know theres more to come.

[edhe]

Sigh.

Can't we all just get along and actually look at the technicalities of such things?

It should be interesting to see this year's porgression in tech as the ps3 should have it's codebase firm by now and the 360 doesn't have any custom engines powering it's blockbuster games, it's quite an interesting toss up of circumstance and the bottom line is that we have developers fighting for our money pretty damn hard. Bonus.

If the ps3 can get a price drop this year and not be overpriced for it's main purpose as a gaming machine [vs it's competition] then we could see some fantastic graphical innovation on both sides!

Good times.

[Shadow Flare]

The xbox 360 uses dvd for goodness sake. Not only that but its actually the worst dvd player on the market. Red Riiiing!

[kingboy]

Well,that way quick but i think his words were taken out of context a little

[TruthBTold]

Visualy the game isn't breaking records so what should be taking a lot of memory, and he said it himself, is the polys in the game. So while it might not be the best visual game out there it will be one of the most detailed games so far, according to what he's saying of course. We'll have to wait and see.

The whole 360 being maxed out wasn't correct. All he said was they are basicly in other words pushing the 360 to where they can no longer add anything which might make the system crash. Refering to the 720, it was just them considering what other things they might be able to do in the future with other projects using their engine, nothing more. Not that they were asking for the 720 already.

Too much system bashing this year. Mostly for the PS3.

[edhe]

Yeah well it is n4g.

It's not surprising that a geometry mashing FPS engine is maxing out systems, the code will be tremendously delicate and any procedural work done on realigning the geometry can have cascading effects which will run any system into a crash.

This is more about how efficient their codebase is at working their hook, rather than the system running out of the usual horsepower used in other games.

[PLAYSTATIONGENRATION]

and Geow1.....basically show what it can do and still some of the best looking games

[NipGrip]

As Epic themselves even stated this.

http://www.computerandvideo...

Denial.. it's a female dog..

[TOO PAWNED]

Can someone tell me, why aren't they mentioning PS3 at all? Is this xbox site or is game exclusive, what? They didn't even say one word about PS3. Possitive or negative

[Bob Dole]

Yeah it'd be interesting if it ended up looking better on the PS3. You get what you pay for. :)

[jack who]

yet again you can never max a technology in the 360 or ps3 out because sum one will alwasy find a way to get more out of it lean how to make it do more with less....

*on another note* this bla bla bla(ppl on the web) Xbox 360 has been Maxed out has been going on since 2006 yet better and better looking games keep coming out

[Carbide7]

"Xbox 360 has been Maxed out has been going on since 2006 yet better and better looking games keep coming out"

Errr, what?

[jack who]

if you go by what ppl have been saying....this xbox has been max out crap has been on the web since 2006 so why do the games keep looking better?

[ezcex]

same sh*t as the ps3 as having no games my friend

[Godmars290]

Name a few titles that massively extend what's been out so far.

Even Gears 2 is only an improvement over 1.

[Aclay]

"yet better and better looking games keep coming out"

What better and better looking games keep coming out? Gears of War and what other games? Besides Gears, there really hasn't been an increasing progression in Xbox 360 game graphics. Gears of War 1 came out in 2006, but Halo 3 came out in 2007 and didn't look nearly as good as Gears of War, a game that came out a year before.

This guy wasn't just talking about graphics, I'm sure he was referring to technical aspects as well.

If developers like Guerrilla haven't come close to maxing out the PS3 with games like Killzone 2, then obviously the PS3 has a lot more to show in it's games graphically and technically.

This game may not really look that graphically impresive, but Maxing out a console or pushing a console to it's limits is more than just graphics because technical things like the amount of enemies on screen, destructibility, and physics all come into play.

[jack who]

sry i enjoy the way farcry 2 looks over gow2....as for other games Project Offset go look at the vid and tell me gow2 looks better than it

http://www.projectoffset.co...

@ rdgneoz3

http://news.teamxbox.com/xb...

[NaiNaiNai]

and heres where you guys start going backwards, you bash the 360 for coming out a year early so it gets more sales, and so inturn of course its not going to be as powerful.

also it cost half the price as a ps3, so of course its still not going to be as powerful. but you people never mention this when the 360 is being bashed, when the ps3 gets bashed you say well the price is to high thats why its not selling, or so on and so forth. come on pick a side and stay on it, stop with the flip flopin. and so what if the 360 has less graphical power, i for sure dont care, and i find Geow1 & 2 to be horrible games, they dont play well to me, and i will stay by that. but graphics are not everything. pretty games suck to.
-nai-

[cyclindk]

I agree and don't think 360 is yet maxed, but I wouldn't say the games have become SUBSTANTIALLY better by any means, Gears 2 isn't a vast visual improvement over Gears 1, mostly gameplay refinements.

That was my only disagree, but I won't give you a disagree :)

[NaiNaiNai]

heres something else. look at source, it hasn't gotten massivly graphicly better over the years, yet people still love to play it. graphics are not everything. if anything they make it harder to make a good game.
-nai-

[rdgneoz3]

Project Offset does look nice. But seeing as they haven't said any thing about a release date and Intel acquiring Offset Software, who knows when it will come out or if it will at all. Also, there was an article posted here a while back talking about the game titled "Project Offset to be a Larrabee Launch Title, PC Exclusivity Nearly Certain" ... http://www.n4g.com/industry... So its not really gonna make the 360 shine if Intel makes it a PC only game to show off Larrabee...

[Rhoic]

Alan Wake.. 'nuff said. The 360 hasn't been maxed out, especially when games that look even NICER than Gears of War 2 haven't even come out yet but are in development for the 360. Seriously? Do people like spewing the same bs every day, even though it is 100% wrong?

[thereapersson]

Uh, the link you posted is over 2 years old. What relevance does any of that have to this article?

[TheMART]

Marketingblabla to sell the game guys? Nice.

[Kotaku_Succs]

that suck box isnt powerful and so anyone can max its power

[TOO PAWNED]

why aren't they mentioning PS3 at all? Is this xbox site or is game exclusive, what?

[NegativeCreep427]

The xbox 360 has reached its peak. Stop making BullSh!t excuses for it.

The sad thing is that RF: Guerilla doesn't even look half as good as Killzone 2.

Playstation 3: The revolution is already underway!

[Xlll]

You'd hate to see how this looks on the PS3? lol this game can't even come close to KZ2 graphics. How sad this is the best the 360 can do.

[THC CELL]

lol pp/mart this game dose not look half as good as maxed uncharted 2 boo hoo

[lelo]

"Red Faction Maxes out Xbox 360"

Now that sounds like marketing crap.

The game does not even look that good. How does Red Faction maxes out the X360 if there is way better looking games in X360 now.

EDIT:
These guys must be really bad programers to say they maxed out the X360 with those graphics. LOL

It may be a good game... but graphics wise... i have seen much better.
http://www.gametrailers.com...

[jack who]

thank you i got the demo from ign this game dont even look close too far cry 2 yet they saying it max the 360 out..

[StayHigh]

Gears of War 2 is the best looking 360 game out there right now..Yes, I am talking about exclusive games that fully take advantage of Sony and Microsoft hardware..The PS3 got the best looking games just look at Uncharted Drakes Fortune, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, Ratchet and Clank Tools of Destruction, Warhawk, Littlebigplanet, Resistance 2, Metal Gear Solid 4, and Gran Turismo P.

Developers still didn't fully use the PS3 power ..Games that will look fantastic this year is Heavy Rain, Killzone 2, God of War 3, Infamous, War Devil, Team ICO game, White Knight Story, and Mag..There so many great games for the PS3 and the graphics is going to be insane and kill every 360 games out there..

[xwabbit]

You guys don't get it, the physics of the game is very strong. Almost everything breaks in that game and that requires a lot of power and those are old screen shots.

[MNicholas]

than most 360 games. The amount of non-scripted destructability is far beyond anything in gears as well. Where it falls terribly short of Gears is in texture quality and use of per pixel lighting. As he so clearly outlined, the high dynamic polygon count is to blame. This means more objects stored in memory (limiting texture quality) and more vertex shader operations (limiting pixel shader operations).

On hardware as simple and straightforward as the 360, there's very little you can gain from traditional optimization. You basically hit hardware limits very easily. The benefit of this is that you can then spend most of your development bucks on optimizing your art and design rather than developing your engine.

The PS3, in contrast, creating games requires learning all kinds of new programming practices (even programming languages) because of it's exotic hardware. On the PS3, like the PS2 before it, there's a vast amount of performance to be gained from engine optimization.

[Sergeant Osiris]

that says the 360 isn't maxed out doesn't understand the first thing about how SEQUENTIAL processors work. On that note they know even less about how PARALELL processing engines like the cell work.

[Ju]

For me that still sounds like marketing talk.

I can understand that the physics might be awesome in that game. But just increasing the polycount to gain destruction is possibly not the right answer when using a machine with limited resources. Maybe a pure scientific approach is good for simulations, but not necessarily good for games.

I wouldn't know how to do it, but I would guess some kind of dynamic vertex optimization could keep memory consumption low. A pre render pipeline could make sure, poly count stays within boundaries. etc.

That said, physics can be physics while the rasterizer needs to focus on the visuals.

Also, I have a hard time believing him. They haven't delivered a game yet (on next gen), and usually you learn a lot after your first title out on that platform.

[LinuxGuru]

At original poster:

It's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

It's not the textures (ala Gears of War) that make Red Faction max out the 360....it's the stuff that is part of the game world.

Physics and polygon count are what we're talking about here.

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, so just stop while you're ahead.

[lelo]

@LinuxGuru

"It's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.
Physics and polygon count are what we're talking about here.
You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, so just stop while you're ahead."

Let me ask you now... do you know what you are talking about?
Polygon count (graphics, not that great, seen better)
Physics... don't impress me by the videos. Have you seen the gameplay videos? Did you see the physics ingame? Don't tell me that you are impressed by that? I base my opinion on the gameplay videos i saw. Did you see them or you opened your mouth randomly and make things up? Unless they change a lot until the release of the game.

[Godmars290]

I'm sure someone will be able to come along later and "tweak" something out of it.

Still, its a bit early for it to be showing its age.

Edit:
Though to be fair, at some point didn't these same guys say that they were having issues with the PS3 as well?

[MNicholas]

The 360's hardware is about as simple and straightforward as it gets. There are no significant mysteries or hidden performance tricks to unlock. The difference in visual quality between Gears, Red Faction, GTA4, etc have more to do with the varying technical demands of those games than hardware utilization and quality of code.

If so inclined, one can do some exotic things like tiling, but that has it's own compromises such as massive reduction in polygon count. Even KZ2 style deferred rendering is sort of possible but, again, with severe compromises.

[Sergeant Osiris]

"Still, its a bit early for it to be showing its age. "

and this is why M$ has NO BUSINESS making consoles, they are NOOBS.
The only reason the xbox 1 was so reliable is because they did the RIGHT THING and went to the people who know how to make console hardware. Nvidia is quality hardware and thus wanted proper compesation for the graphics card they put in the original xbox. THIS prevented them from making a profit on it (since even then they were trying to price match the PS2 when it should have been more expensive than it) and ultimately led to them SCRAPPING that console.

Frankly I think M$ would have already thrown in the towel this generation but all the crap-talking, mud-slinging and general FUD they have engaged in would make them the laughing stock of several industries if they quit now. Peter Moore left for a reason boys n girls.

[Sarcasm]

So Sergeant Osiris, I believe what you're trying to say is that MS went FULL RETARD. Never go full retard.

[LinuxGuru]

LOL @ full retard

Les Grossman:

"Now take a step back....and literally F*CK YOUR OWN FACE!!!!"

[thereapersson]

I'd like to see what they could do with their engine on Sony's platform. Isn't this a multiplatform game?

Let's just hope that Microsoft doesn't use DVD9 on the next version of the 360. But really, I think the problem here is that BOTH consoles need more RAM. Hell, if it wasn't for EPIC games, the 360 wouldn't have 512 MB; and that's STILL not quite good enough.

This whole thing is rather dumb, though, considering we're only into 3 or so years of the console's lifespan. I'm sure in another year they'll look back on this and say "man, I can't believe we thought we squeezed all we could out of the 360...". It's rather interesting considering games like Mass Effect can look so good, and yet I'm sure they don't come close to maxing out the system.

edit:

lol, 12 minutes and already 240 degrees...

[cyclindk]

Mass Effect was laggy and doesn't look THAT great considering all the cookie cutter environments, i.e. every outpost was practically the same, every space freighter, and those alien worlds (the side mission ones) were totally garbage, almost last minute idea kind of ooking things.

Wasn't even worth the 30 bucks I spent for it for PC, the music was very nice though!

[Sergeant Osiris]

most people FAIL to understand about the PS3's ram.

speaking in DDR3 terms the PS3 has about 2.5GB of memory.

how is this so you say?

well it's simple math:

DDR3 runs at 700mhz

XDR runs at 3.2ghz

thus it can handle over 4 times the amount of information regular DDR3 memory can. The big difference here is STATIC memory. The PS3 HATES it and is not designed for it, which ultimately is the whole point of XDR ram. It is fast enough to load and unload geometry data for multiple render cycles (this isn't common knowledge and I'm actually no sure why Im even revealing this). What this means to the kids that play games is that the world you are playing in can be ANY size the developer want's it to be. Since all the graphical assets ONLY for stuff in your field of view are loaded into memory for as long as you are looking at it and then offloaded just as fast you can do WAY more with XDR than you ever could with DDR3.

grant it this is a very simplified explanation of the new type of game engines on the horizon because a technical one would turn into 100+ pages of stuff most people here wouldn't know how to pronounce much less understand.

[Ju]

Hm, valid point. I think this has been mentioned before. Basically they started to "virtualize" PS3s memory. I think to remember, someone from Nautghy Dog mentioned in an interview because of how they stream data, they can effectively use "virtually" 768MB of vram. (Maybe someone can find the reference, I couldn't).

[The Lazy One]

That isn't what it means.

Geometry can be loaded and unloaded plenty fast on DDR3 for what you said. What it does mean is that things you only need to load for single calculations get added and removed faster (those things are very rarely things you actually see on screen).

For being such a hardware snob, you really don't understand why the PS3's XDR is good. It's still debatable which architecture is really better, because there is a lot to be said for unified memory.

[Tiberium]

their skipping the ps3 altogether. Bad architecture. Nuff said.

[NipGrip]

It's not "bad architecture", it's *new* architecture and was very hard for developers to work with as there were not many good tools developed at release. Things are different now, caveman. The Cell tech will be used in the PS4, which means what they are learning now will easily be ported to the next system allowing for easy backwards compatibility and extra performance by simply adding more Cell processors and (hopefully) more memory to the system.

I thought this was fairly well known.

[thereapersson]

Actually, if you read the damn article instead of opening your fanboy mouth, you would see that there is more flamebait in the title than anything else. Nowhere does it state that they are looking soley to the 720, or whatever it's going to be called, for development. That's just a reference point when they say they are already looking to the next generation of systems, be it the "XBOX 720", PS4 or any other next-generation systems.

[StayHigh]

The PS2 at first was hard to program but they got the hang of it.Devlopers will get better tools while working with the PS3 through out the years..

[ultimolu]

Someone has their goggles on too tight.

[TheInCrediBleSulk]

The Cell architecture isn't bad it is simply new. However, what I think would be a really good console is one with microsoft's software and dev tools and sony's powerfull hardware. Now that would be a force to be reckoned with.

[Unicron]

No one should really listen to this stuff. This is mostly PR fluff, as newer, better, more efficient ways of programming will be discovered. That applies to all systems until programmers stop trying and move on to the next thing.

I am really anxious for this title. I hope the MP component is stable, and the destruction is well used! Bring it on!

[Ju]

I agree. Ever worked with a producer ? You got 256MB, not enough. Get 512. Wait a couple of month. Not enough again. Add a faster CPU. Couple weeks later. Not fast enough. People don't understand every tech has its constrains. If you put more tech in there, artists and designers will find "creative" ways to fill that up in no time.

[360 man]

dont be surprised

this game does use alot of physics

i have to say this is were sonys cell processor does shine

[ZombieNinjaPanda]

You're right.

After watching a video of it, there is a lot of destruction and physics going on.

[Marquis_de_Sade]

Rate the comment people, not the user.

[CobraKai]

I'm pretty sure that was what the developer meant. Character models and environments are one thing and the calculations used to process the physics of every destructible part is another. Maxing out a console isn't always about what is rendered on screen.

[Marquis_de_Sade]

but teh gfx!

You are quite right, in my opinion realistic physics often make a game world more believable than graphical fidelity.

[OOG]

I can see that yes they could max out the 360 or even the ps3 many devs could....but only if they are making games very sloppy....\

This has been the same old story even last gen....but the longer the systems were out the better the games looked....after the first two years of ps2 did people really think it could have a game like God of War??? no.....

Its all about how you make the games and the engines etc that you use in order to make them...I remember tons of crappy games for PC that would have the same specs or higher then another game yet would not even be comparable.....its all about how the developers utilize the technology they have to work with....

but of course on this site the weird lil fanboys will start running wild now.

[Tiberium]

this game graphically doesn't even look half as good as gears 2. And gears 2 had some pretty big set pieces too.

[she00win99]

but gears doesn't have destructible environment....

[ppthedipshit]

Just like the original Sh1tbox, Micro$haft and its developers is gearing up to give up on the Sh1tbox 3-Fix-Me.

Here is a News Years present for you Xbots.

http://www.sonydefenseforce...

[trancefreak]

damn those were great comparisons

[THC CELL]

game dose not look half as good as so called maxed out uncharted 2
what to be honest wont hit 60%

Red Faction game its self is not really looking as good as gears of war 1 n 2
no where near as good as killzone ever

[Lumbo]

there is more to games than "looks" ... RedFaction always had the top notch destructible environment engine around. Sure it doesn't look as plasticly shiny as Gears2, but as a tradeof it will have AI and Physics unsurpassed.

[soljah]

kill zone II baby 60% and looks unreal. time to come over to the dark side.

[PotNoodle]

Power isn't all about graphics.

[THC CELL]

All i can say about xbox power is
THAT IT

lol that's nothing to ps3 man Nothing

Someone play savage moon on ps3 with cannons to the max set up all over the map
That is power and possess man i bet the xbox would crash

[360 man]

is it even being made for ps3

[Ichiryoka]

You seem desperate.

[360 man]

im askin is it coming for ps3 or not

[geda]

yes it is, it's published by THQ

[baum]

Unified RAM means no need to optimize the use of RAM which means you can push it to the limits faster than other console. Same thing with unified shaders, you'll simply be able to hit the graphical limit fast since you can simply keep pushing it without the need to optimize.

360 has no standard HDD so you can't really force the user to get a HDD to make the game better, just optionally so the improvements are minor. 360 still uses DVD9 so it's not like you can invest a lot of time on it, otherwise you'll run out of space. So basically you don't need to spend a lot of time with Xbox 360 to max it out.

This is why Epic said they reached the high end of 360's graphics with GeOW2, even though it looks exactly like GeOW1. Epic actually had the engine ready to showcase GeOW to Microsoft right before they released the 360, right? You could say that 360's peak was reached by Epic even before it launched and we saw the fruits of Epic's efforts in 2006.

Edit:

I'm saying is that the 360 is very easy to develop for, that it has no HDD as a standard so it can't be used, and that it has DVD9 so it's not like developers can make a lot with it unless they choose the multiple DVD route which won't work with some game genres, and which will cost them excessive licensing fees from Microsoft.

How's that flaming? Thanks to the fact that 360 is so easy to develop for you got Gears of War as early as in 2006. How's that a bad thing?

[360 man]

why are you flaming ?

[THC CELL]

red faction is not a exclusive to xbox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

and if u are talking about savage moon its out
one of my fav defender games

At below
for now yes even tho i dont care about this game cause killzone is on the horizon

Btw i bet they talk about the ps3 version in a few weeks and lets see if they have maxed that out
maybe not i bet they come along the lines of 40% ps3 power used ok im been tight 45 and 50%

[360 man]

but is it coming out on ps3

[Clopsy]

360 man, try looking at responses to your comments. Yes, it is coming out on PS3 as well as PC.

[pixelsword]

...and optimizing data to work properly on a console.

That's where most fanboys get their little pea-brains stuck. A lot of things, improperly optimized, can max out a console. You even open a huge, huge, HUGE pic, movie, or file and watch your computer take a dump? That's because that pic maxed out your PC... but it wasn't optimized. With proper optimization of data, you can open multiple pics, files, or movies.

So everyone remember that when they bring up this poor-looking game, or when the PS3 version of multiplat games look wore than the 360: optimizing is key.

[The Lazy One]

A lot of people don't understand that there's a difference between pushing the hardware as far as it can go, and using as much of the hardware as possible. The former will happen when you do the latter, but the latter can happen with even a 2d sidescroller if it isn't optimized.

Consider the 360 to be a car engine, and game engines to be different gears you can put the car into. A lower gear won't get you going as fast, but you'd be dumb not to at least try to use the engine to it's ability and go as fast as that gear will let you go. Likewise, a higher gear can get you going many times faster on the same engine that was only getting you a fraction of the speed before.

That said, don't under rate this game. It might not be a graphical powerhouse, but it has a ridiculous amount of physics going onin the background that shouldn't be ignored by any means.

[PirateThom]

If they came along and said "we've maxed out the 360 in terms of our engine", it would be believable, but just saying "lol maxed out" doesn't really say a lot.

[ZombieNinjaPanda]

Don't think by maxed out he means graphics.

Probably talking about all of the destruction going on in game.

[jkhan]

You can easily max out any processor with bad code. Its not the limit of processors you can reach. Its the limit of your engine running on the processor. 2 years back, with the release of Uncharted, I thought the games that will come around will not look way better from each other, but now you can see how Uncharted 2, Killzone 2 and Heavy Rain are shaping up. It will always be dependent on your engine.
Halo 3 is one example. halo 2 was one of the best looking game on xbox but the same engine (modified) for Halo3 didn't really push the limits of xbox360 did it?

[Ju]

Sure, like this

while (1) ;

One line of code, 100% cpu load. You bet.

[TheInCrediBleSulk]

lmao nice infinite loop joke

[Ichiryoka]

I guess thats that.

[Raoh]

people especially developers are forgetting one thing.

the 360 and ps3 are hardware.

maximizing is about software. maybe unreal engine is out of tricks.

but pushing the ps3 and 360 to its limits is dependent of the software and that studio.

some developers say they are pushing the limits but in reality is that the developer did all they could do to their knowledge.

i'm tired of limits being pushed comments.

[Fishy Fingers]

While technically true, you can only optimize so much, eventually you'll hit a wall regardless of who is building the engine and how much knowledge they have. You only have so much raw power to play with.

Also, realise these are actual game developers, I believe they have more knowledge on the subject of a consoles capabilities than you or I.

[Raoh]

hey fishy your right in more ways than you said.

but look at it this way. the too human developer sued epic saying unreal was broken. epic can squeeze more out of the engine. also even when ps3 unreal ports failed, unreal tournament 3 and dark sector ran perfectly.

this brings up what insomniac said. stop leasing other companies engines. create your own.

a similar comment was made about the ps2 reaching its limits. it took a long time but after a while nothing really broke the standard after years of ps2 development. just when you thought it was over... god of war 2 came out.

crystal tools isnt a better ps3 engine for square its just a better multiplayer engine.

the walls they hit are their own. i think the ps3 is better than the 360 but i dont think the 360 itsself has hit a brick wall..

(although i hope the 360 dies a horrible death)

[Firstkn1ghT]

Red Faction maxing out the 360??? LMFAO!!!!!!!! I can't believe sony droids believe it. Oh man, I try to give you guys some credit for at least having half a brain but I guess I just proved myself wrong by reading some comments on here.

[PeptoBismol]

"In an interview with Gameplayer regarding Red Faction: Guerrilla, producer Rick White claims that they have maxed out the power of the Xbox 360"

the producer of the game confirmed it u idiot, not PS3 fans

why are you such a moron?

[thereapersson]

FirstKnight, you're such a dumbass. Why do you even bother commenting here?

[Kush_Reaper]

Oi! FirstWank, why don't you try reading the article huh? Or maybe it's hard to put your rice grain brain to works lol. Repeat after me XBOOOOOOOOOOOOOT.

OBAMA!!!

[divideby0]

This is like the third time someone from V, has stated they have hit the wall with the 360.
RF was one of my fav. games ways back, and I thought the beta on Live sucked pretty bad.
Wonder how they feel about the PS3 with their new engine ?

[na2ru1]

face it. MS needs the 720 to catch up.

prepare for 300+ comments

[divideby0]

by the end of 2009, this will be so obvious even the long standing nansayers will look silly if they still dont think so.
we all know that MS will announce their next machine at the end of this year since the chipset will be ready by mid/late 2010

[Rhythmattic]

To MS's Credit , with the 720 (if thats what its called) they will be taking a scalable approach. Much like PC's. It wont be a matter of Backward compatibility but forward compatibility. (read it somewhere)

The 360/720 (?) will run the game SCALED to their own hardware configs, just like a PC. Simple, Yes, Good idea, YES.

One game, one disk, either console.

That way, no one is Burned.

[PS360PCROCKS]

Never even heard of this game til now, Volition isn't that great of a studio, this games graphics are butt ugly, the physics are cool but I still think they're kinda lame, seems cheap and just not realistic. I dunno I don't care if it's maxed or not. Gears Of War wasn't any more fun because of the graphics.

[HemiHalo]

It all comes down to the engine...
If Killzone 2 really does use only 60% of the PS3's power, then I guess the game would be possible on the 360 (keep in mind that the 360 has to be at least 60% as powerful as the PS3 to even compete, disregard the storage problem known as DVD9.)

To those who would disagree: Think about it, honestly. Don't be a fanboy. The PS2 could do Black and GOW2, the 360 should be able to peak at KZ2 levels.

[Ju]

Well, KZ2 uses the CELL to add about 4-5 additional layers of visual processing (4SPUs). Very vector based code I'd guess. Even if you could move parts to the GPU/shaders and optimize the whole deferred engine to the 3 VMX cores, it would be very tough, IMO.

[HemiHalo]

Don't forget, each core on the 360's CPU is capable of SMT (simultaneous multi-threading) 2 threads at once. This means the 360 has 6 logical cores.

360 CPU: 115.2 GFLOPS peak performance
PS3 CELL: 25.6 GFLOPS per SPE -------> 25.6 x (6 SPEs used for games)
= 153.6 GFLOPS peak performance

115.2/153.6 = .75

So if each respective CPU is running at it's peak, then you can expect the 360's CPU to be 75% as fast as the CELL. So I think it COULD work, although no it wouldn't be easy.

Correct me if any of that is wrong. Got it from Wikipedia.

[Ju]

The 6 parallel execution units is a myth. It has 3 cores, 2 hw threads per core, and 3 VMX units. If, and I say if, you can issue 2 parallel ops on one core, you could theoretically execute 6 threads. In real world this never applies, it simply not 6 independent execution units, however, people tell me you can get close to 4-5 threads running in parallel if well optimized code is used (that means the instruction pipeline can decode/execute 2 ops in parallel because they can be decoded independently). However, you got 3 VMX cores, and that's about it. No hw threading there. Means 3 vector units max. And you need to share these with the general purpose cores. This is significant less then 6 fully independent vector cores, with local mem and load/store bandwith of 25GB/s (plus local store with the speed of local registers, and local EIB significant faster then 25GB/s).

So, yeah, while general purpose code could possibly compensate for some of these things, nothing in the 360 is suited for the massive amount of deferred rendering KZ2 does on the PS3. All physics and AI in KZ2 runs on the PPU.

[HemiHalo]

Well, your definitely more educated than me when it comes to hardware, not going to deny that. I still think KZ2 would be POSSIBLE on 360, compressed textures blahblahblah, just not very easily done.

Is there a chance the GPU is bottlenecking either system? Especially the PS3, since the CELL seems to be ahead of it's time.

[Ju]

I'd give the 360 GPU a slight advantage. Because of two or three reasons. Unified mem allows the GPU dynamically scale its memory up to 512 without much effort (with the trade off of the shared bus), the unified shaders can be an advantage in some circumstances (e.g. if you need more pixel shaders but do geometry without GPU, then you can simply allocate all shaders doing pix ops - but that is theoretical) and finally the 10M edram can be very useful. However, in typical situations I would classify them as about equal. Like in some games, same geometry, but less AA. Or a hitch in the frame rate (something like 28fps vs. 30, but nothing significant like 30fps vs. 60 or so).

The PS3 has its advantage through the CELL and the SPUs (in the way it can take load away from the GPU, for example). But, and the KZ2 example shows that, you need very specific code to take advantage of it. As time goes by, however, this will be more common in PS3 games, "deferred rendering" will be something we will start hearing more often, I believe.

I personally think KZ2 is not possible on the 360 without a significant reduction of visual fidelity of the render engine. Would it still look good ? I would guess so. But it would be a different game. The engine would require a 100% re-write.

[Kush_Reaper]

And it begins. If this infact is true then we can confirm that the xbox720 is truelly upon us. How embarrassing to know a third party game maxes out the 360. It's not the first time it's been stated but this time it's as clear as the day.

Another important factor is that soon games will be developed on the ps3 first then ported to the 360 in sub-par form. Rage said it and so did Rockstar, the 360's days are numbered. Then again what do you expect from a hardware ridden console that costs $199 in less than 4 years lol.

After killzone 2, developers are starting to realise that in order for them reach their goals and limits they will have to make their games at least ps3 timed-excluisve then port it in chunks for the 360. The sad thing is that microsoft has raped these xbox loyalist and the same people will probably fork out more money for a new 720 even if it comes out as early as mid this year. How can they claim to have a future proof goal plan for the 360 when it's already maxed out now....anyone?

With games like killzone 2 already looking astonishing in the ps3's 3 year with lots of untapped potential frightens me. Sony are the kings of consoles going by they 2 gen domination. Sony and nintendo are the real innovators in this console gen and microsoft has done nothing but copy their way to the top. This shows in the lack of software and hardware reliability witnessed throughtout the 360's life time.

Although i would rather see microsoft stay and give sony a competion of some sort, it really is inevitable that we will see the dismisal of the 360 soon.

OBAMA!!!

[PS360PCROCKS]

how? Um by continuing making games, you're a fool if you think the 360 is going anywhere because "it's maxed out" it's about the game, not the graphics you fool. Look at the almighty Uncharted and MGS4, best looking games in the history of life right according to PS3 fans? Yeah well Halo 3 and sold more than both combined and has terrible graphics, am I right? By a lot of people's standards (not mine) GTA IV has bad graphics also, and guess what? Yeah you guessed it, it sold like crazy. But hey you keep dreaming...

Oh and as long as the 360 is ahead of PS3 in consoles sold, hell even if it isn't, no studios are going to spend the extra money to dev the PS3 to "omgz graphics"

[Sarcasm]

"no studios are going to spend the extra money to dev the PS3 to "omgz graphics" "

No studios except Sony.

That's all we need anyway.

Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, GT5, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

and this argument isn't about sales, so why the need to bring up sales?

[PS360PCROCKS]

"After killzone 2, developers are starting to realise that in order for them reach their goals and limits they will have to make their games at least ps3 timed-excluisve then port it in chunks for the 360."

Because it takes time and money to achieve more on the PS3 than it does on the 360. 3rd party software makes up the bulk of a system's games, so while Microsoft is still selling them, the graphics of their first party games doesn't matter, they're impressive enough.

[Kush_Reaper]

Man it has began. If this infact is true then we can confirm that the xbox720 is truelly upon us. How embarrassing to know a third party game maxes out the 360. It's not the first time it's been stated but this time it's as clear as the day.

Another important factor is that soon games will be developed on the ps3 first then ported to the 360 in sub-par form. Rage said it and so did Rockstar, the 360's days are numbered. Then again what do you expect from a hardware ridden console that costs $199 in less than 4 years lol.

After killzone 2, developers are starting to realise that in order for them reach their goals and limits they will have to make their games at least ps3 timed-excluisve then port it in chunks for the 360. The sad thing is that microsoft has raped these xbox loyalist and the same people will probably fork out more money for a new 720 even if it comes out as early as mid this year. How can they claim to have a future proof goal plan for the 360 when it's already maxed out now....anyone?

With games like killzone 2 already looking astonishing in the ps3's 3 year with lots of untapped potential frightens me. Sony are the kings of consoles going by they 2 gen domination. Sony and nintendo are the real innovators in this console gen and microsoft has done nothing but copy their way to the top. This shows in the lack of software and hardware reliability witnessed throughtout the 360's life time.

Although i would rather see microsoft stay and give sony a competion of some sort, it really is inevitable that we will see the dismisal of the 360 soon.

OBAMA!!!

[MONOLITHICIDE]

everything you said is true and scary all that untaped power i cant wait to see what games look like in 2010.

[Xlll]

I totally agree. Well said +bubbles.

[ultimolu]

Not sure what to say about this but...that's no good.

[Zoomer76]

Got to love articles like this, always brings out the so called Know it alls sprouting their Google knowledge!!

[xg-ei8ht]

http://www.videogamer.com/v...

well i think this game looks pretty good for what it's doing.

[Blaze929]

Rick White and his team are such BSers and its no lie its just some pr at work trying to promote the soon-to-be failure of a game, Red Faction Guerrilla. I played the beta for about a week and it was no where near good and sure it was a beta but even Gears of War ONE looked better than that game so im not buying this for a second. Its a shame though for the series, RF1 was SO good but this, this is SO not.

[Magic_The_Celt]

is there any other game which claims to max the 360's power?

just wondering

Heavy Rain claims to max the PS3's power

[Software_Lover]

Doesn't the ps3 have the same amount.

[crillyconlig]

ps3 memory is alot more efficient, plus the cell reduces the load on the ram

[Boty]

The 360 is very similar to a modern PC. The 360 has a CPU that is some what comparable to a Intel Core 2 due. The thing I don't know is does the 360 support Hyper-Threading? If so it might be ale to "imitate" a multi-SPU Processor. If not then its probably likely that the 360 is maxed out due to Intense physics. There is always a trade off some ware. Its like this:

GPU = 25%
|
CPU = 75%

-------------

GPU = 50%
|
CPU = 50%

-------------

GPU = 75%
|
CPU = 25%

----------------------------- -----------
----------------------------- -----------

If you had something like the ps3 then you could have:

GPU: 40%
||
SPU: 10%
|
SPU: 20%
|
SPU: 10%
|
SPU: 5%
|
SPU: 5%
|
SPU: 10%
|
\
[SPU:OS]
/
[SPU:Other]

SO, in theory, the ps3 is capable of doing more using less.

[Wile]

Impressive mastery of the PS3 or 360 architecture. Looks like you go it all figured out. Nice chart.

[Boty]

It's nice to know there are some cool people on this site.

P.S,
A+ Certification for the win!

[pickle1234]

you idiot sony fanboys. look at all you swarm on this forum. I bet you cant wait to hear this kind of stuff. Makes you feel better for wasting money on your ps3 and waiting for stuff to come out and when it does it flops and then you hype new things. The 360 is far from maxed out. And you say what games are going to look great. How about Mass Effect 2 and Alan Wake. Thats only for this year. It all depends on the game engine thats being used for building the game. Theyre engine got maxed out and now all of a sudden the xbox is maxed out due to hardware limitations. These guys get paid to say this kind of bs to get u fanboys stiring. Get a life and get off this forum. The xbox 360 will outperform the ps3 graphically this generation. Mark my words. The ps3 will fail. Now go outside and play fanboys!

[Ju]

If this makes you happy, I do not expect the PS3 version of RFG being any different then the 360 version (well, you can start saying AA, and these other words, now, if you want). So, I would say this whole comment also applies to the PS3 (if you want to read it that way). Well, personally, if it would be exclusive... (run ducking)...

[Boty]

Wish you new what you were talking about.

[Oner]

Boty, that's what's REALLY sad....

[divideby0]

good thing I always buy all consoles on launch day going back to SNES..
I am on my 3rd 360 and intelligent enough to know you are posting total BS and before you go name calling just read what you wrote..its a frigging lol joke calling anyone out with your posting.

If you dont think we will see another MS console before the next PS3, just to keep up with the PS3, than you should do some reading.

[IzKyD1331]

"Red Faction Maxes out Xbox 360"

It's not exactly the hardest thing to do...

[Covenant]

This thread maxes out N4G...crash imminent. :)

[TheColbertinator]

lol good one Covenant

[SixAmpFuze]

he never said the 360 is maxed out he said they maxed out what they can ADD to the game engine Because of memory issues which will be the same issues on the ps3 since they both have the same amount of ram and the cell wont help the system out in the ram department

[Silvia007]

the 360 is a cheap piece of PC hardware stripped down to the T. I own two, I know. I also own a kick@ss PC and the PS3 so yes, I know. I am not surprised at all that it's maxed out. Frankly, I'm surprised, they were able to do what they did. I don't care if they find new ways to talk to it(laymen terms), when you know everything about a console, you can't squeeze anymore out of it no matter what you do. For the record, spending $600 dollars on a PS3 is nothing. My PC Speakers cost more than my PS3. Maybe if you work at McDonalds living in an apartment because you thought dropping out of highschool was bad @ss or some sh!t like that. If that is the case, it's no wonder you think the 360 has limitless power. A word of advice, stop sniffing spray cans because you can't afford real drugs. With that said, stop thinking your 360 can fly because you can't afford a PS3. If you can and just don't want to, then sh!t, be stupid and stfu.

If there is anything left that the 360 can do, it won't be anything close to drastic. Face it, you can only make $400 do so much. Same goes for the PS3. I'd say at this point, if you have a launch xbox, there is no other way that $400 could of been better spent. Be glad that you got this many years of enjoyment out of it.

God... I always sound so damn angry. I'm not =). Just people who think cheaply made products can do wonders.

[Rhythmattic]

I'm with ya.

Economy of Scale.

You get what you pay for. And Quality does cost , whether it be a games console, a Telescope, A TV , a Car...

And of course, Speakers. Actually, I have a Guitar that could buy me today , 14.5 PS3's ($688ea Aus). Its a friggin Beauty !!

[Godmars290]

The 360 is a cheap piece of PS3 hardware stripped to the bone :p

Not that I'm saying MS copied anything...

[TheColbertinator]

I don't think the 360 is maxed out yet.

[Bladestar]

Most of you people are too dumb to understand what he is saying...

lol.

He is taking about memory... you have to understand that they are PC developer before anything else... they are not talking about GPU or CPU... but Memory... 512MB is way too little specially for today's PC games...

Before game can be rendered on the screen they must be loaded into memory...and sadly the xbox 360 only have 512MB... I always said it.. that will be the main problem with future console games.. RAM!
both the PS3 and the xbox 360 have too little..

it's kind of stupid that Sony fans chose to completely ignore GPU and Ram this generation... and focus only on CPU and Disc storage as if that every being the most important thing when it comes to games...

I don't recall anyone upgrading their hard drive to improve their game graphics... or adding another CPU...

The xbox 360 currently have more CPU power than most computers today.. but it wouldn't be able to run a game like Crysis...

Take a look at crysis recomended requirements:

Processor - Intel Core 2 DUO @ 2.2GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
Memory - 2.0 GB RAM
GPU - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS/640 or similar

The CPU and GPU wouldn't really be a problem... but in terms of memory it off by almost 300%. this the same problem...

Besides I wouldn't use what these developer are saying to try to push your agenda that the PS3 is more powerful specially when it comes to memory...

what would you say about developers that are completely ignoring the PS3? if they think the xbox 360 is maxed out and still think they can make it work... and are working on a version of it... what do you think they think about the PS3... which they are completely skipping?

Focus kids... in what really matter in terms of gaming... GPU + Ram... you can have lots of anything else... without those too... you are stuck...

You have to understand that this game will be on the PC too.. so they have to try to match it... how can developer match a game on the PC which they can use 2GB+ of ram vs a console where they can use only 512MB? it does not take a genious to understand why they believe they maxed out what they can do.... freaken duhh!

[divideby0]

ask any developer...
the more memory, the EASIER it is to code.. undeniably true....thats why developers like more memory it makes their job EASIER to code..that is a FACT..
Stellar games can be made without a bunch of RAM, it just makes the developers do some dang homework and use their brains more on how to efficiently code for a hardware platform.
How much ram was available way back when the first processors were used to put a man on the moon ? Look it up.. The coding back than was way more efficient and calls were made directly to the hardware, not like today where you code to a program which controls the hardware

[Bladestar]

@divideby0 if what you say is 100% true... why Sony made the PS2 or even the PS3... if developer can simply learn new programming techniques in order to improve the graphics and games instead of needing more hardware power... why make new consoles... or why make better hardware over time?

Now, I understand that code can be optimized... there is only so much you can optimize... there is always a limit and so much the hardware can handle...

Memory is the most important aspect of any program... Data needs to be loaded before it can be process... it's the first and last step of any program..

So, it's not only about making life better for developers... Sometimes it's needed...

For example, the bigger the world or the more detailed the characters and environments the more memory is required... sometimes you can't go around that...

lots of games that have detailed environments and characters tend to be small.... sequential... Games that have huge environments like MMO where gamers walk for miles before seeing a "loading" screen tend to have not so great graphics...

I would love to see a game that look like Kill Zone 2 give gamers the option wondering the world like Fallout 3... and completely ignore Memory... and you think it's developer's laziness? I'm sure Fallout developers would love to make the game look as good as gears 2 or kill zone 2... but this would probably require like 6-10GB of ram...

believe it or not... RAM is important... sometimes even more important than CPU power...

The formula is simply: Ram - (Textures + Polygon Count + Environment detail)...

if that was not the case... Resistance 2 would look as good a Kill Zone 2... but for Resistance 2 they wanted to make the worlds larger and therefore down the graphics... You will see when Kill Zone 2 comes out... the games will be mostly losed environment and fought in small places...

[karlostomy]

If this game maxes out the 360, but still manages to look and play better than the ps3 version, then does that mean the ps3 is also maxed out albeit slightly sooner than the 360?

I guess that would settle it once and for all, right?
Just makes sense.

I'll be waiting for a fair comparison article when the game comes out.

[MANTIIS]

reserve your opinion for God Of War 3, Socrates. You know, the game that would make a 360 melt into a plastic sludge.

[power of Green]

Yes the game will be better on the 360 I'v seen interviews of the devs saying the 360 is the main platform.

This is just marketing gibba jabba, they only mentioned the 360 because it is their primary platform.

Look at the PS3 fanbys jizz their pants, I think they take this at face value.

[Xlll]

Aww PoG is crying again. Your 360 is dead in the water. MS refuses to show sales figures because we all know the 360 is in dead last. Its hardware is flawed and weak. If this game maxes out your console thats just sad. Take a long look at KZ2. It crushs RF2 and doesn't max the PS3 out at all.

[mynd]

Ahh, cracks me up, they say we maxed out the memory.

PS3 boys..oh XBox is maxed out.

News for you, if they have maxed out the memory for the game on the 360, the PS3 will be in a WORSE position.

Still, lets just wait till the game comes out, the reviews come in and the PS3 suffers from inferior graphics (again).

Then you will all unleash on these guys, about how they don't know how to program, etc etc.

[N4PS3G]

Please..tell me that you are lazy and bad developers..but don't tell me that this crap:

http://xbox360media.ign.com...

is maxing out a systemm...because thats just sad

Really misleading tittle...it says they are maxing out the ram on the system ..and both ps3 and 360 have the same amount of ram

[Bathyj]

Everyome that said, How can it be maxed out, it doesn't even look that good is missing the point and are some dumb MoFo's.

Read the FKN article. Its not about graphics.

[sak500]

Has anyone played SR2? I've seen the vids and looks krappy as hell. Ok so this game has physics and destructability all around. Games like Force unleashed is full of physics and destructability, Battle Field: Bad company had destructability, Fracture uses physics and terrain deformation, so how come they still look better than a game expected in 2009? Look as GTA wanna be Saints row? The sequel looks worse than GTAIII on PS2, while GTA IV on 360 and PS3 do look current gen.

Seem like when the devs sees the game not on par with existing games in market they have to come up with excuse 101. He was also complaining about memory issue even with unified memory of 360, where both gpu/cpu can share full 512MB, so how will he justify the game on ps3 which has limited 256mb to gpu and 256mb to cell?

I believe it will get mostly 70s or 60s. I'm glad devs like these are far and fewer atleast where 360 development is concerned.

[sonyandcher]

I have to say, the comments (bar one or two fan boy statements) has just about been the most refreshing learning experience for me in the last few months. Some really smart stuff. I have not done any serious programming since Sinclair's version of BASIC in 1984 and that was fun :) Bubbles to most of you and please lets have more of this debate and not flames. Thanks.

[MANTIIS]

the award goes to Epic for maxxing out the 360 with the first GOW. The affordable and cheap box has been maxxxed for some time.

[IWentBrokeForGaming]

that will change this gen of gaming, definatley... until the launch of the next round of systems... are... Killzone 2 and Heavy Rain!

These 2 games WILL go above and beyond all current games ever seen, graphically. These 2 games WILL for sure outshine MILLIONS of game releases between BOTH 360 and PS3. These 2 games WILL set a NEW STANDARD of expectations from GRAPHICS W#ORES. Gaming WILL change in 09... and WILL change in ways that I can't see the 360 being able to keep up GRAPHICALLY. BUT!, if 360's games CAN maintain quailty/enjoyable GAMEPLAY... I feel the games COULD stay competative with PS3 titles. BUT!, it WILL take for people to play the games to fully realize the awesomeness of the games as the VISUALS... won't be the MAIN attention of their titles in the future...

It's about to get truely amazing folks!

[evrfighter]

I lol'd at the cpu/gpu discussions that went on because the developer hit the peak in memory usage.

[Chrissy]

Does that that mean ps3 version will be crippled since it has less memory?

[achira]

go dieing you uninformed idiot.

[power of Green]

Fuc dude didn't even mention the game on PS3, its probably not even worth mentioning.

It's better to hype and kiss ass to their primary focus/platform/base.

The PS3 version is probably not even as close as Resident Evil 5's versions(PS3 version clearly inferior).

PS3 fans see more than the devs just letting fans/MSFT know they have full support from the company.

[Chrissy]

The reason for ps3 having less memory is the XMB lol since it hogs memory without a reason. The NXE dash is light years superior (even tough MS made it in less than 3 months (Home® Experience took sony years olololol)) and yet somehow it consumes much less memory.

[milkyway]

PS3 is much more powerful than the 360

[Balanced Gamer]

provide examples :)

[Godmars290]

Show me some 360 tech demos.

Anytime you see someone showing off game engines for the 360 its off a PC.

[mynd]

I've already posted this but it will have got lost in replys..
@ Mnicholas. The Cell cant help out with pixel shading at all, only vertex massaging,. The PS3 has a very fixed VS and PS horsepower this is true. But you supposition that as polygon count increase pixel shader power decreases is wrong.
You still put through the same amount of data each triangle, you just doing more triangles.

The only way you VS shader can chew through more horsepower and thus take away form the Pixel shader is if the the vertex shader does more ops than usual.
i.e. You vertex shader is suddenly doing twice the amount of ops on the vertex, for some weird reason.

Same goes with the pixel shader, if you do some really complex math's in you pixel shader, you use more ops.

i.e. 4 ops for the VS, 16 ops for PS=20 ops per polygon.

Doesn't matter how may polygons you put through, it's still a total of 20 ops.

So. Your completely and utterly wrong.
Nice try.

It's this kind of "reversed for fan boy" engineering that spread misinformation.

If you don't know what a Matrix is, a vertex shader is and a pixel shader does, or how they work, DONT POST ABOUT THEM.

ROFL, more primitives take away from pixel shader power....

[Sergeant Osiris]

you're a well known 360 fanboy, now go back to that crap they call "Ps3forums" and troll your ignorant crap over there. Still going on about how the PS3 doesn't have more processing power than the 360?
Where are all those "great" games you are working on? eaten by a kangaroo? you're a joke.

[Re-versed]

Everyone knows ps3 is more powerful!
Its in second year in the market and it has already exceed 360 in grafics terms...

[Shane Kim]

Bwahahahha, that's it bots. It has reached its potential. Now load up on your cash to buy a new sh!tbox after only 4 years HAHAHAAAHAHA.

[The Judderman]

Sounds like Marketing garbage to me. Chances are the game will come out and won't look that good or play that well.

[The Judderman]

Basically the game looks like crap then and will probably play like it too. Sounds like the developers realise its going to be pants so are going to play the hype card just like free radical did with Haze.
Garbage.

[mll09]

Dude, there is hardly any difference between the 360 and PS3 versions of RE5, get your facts right.

Anyway, this is proof of what we've been trying to say all along, Gears 2 is reaching the limit of the 360.

[Mars Attacker]

The 360 development system and compiler makes it really easy for even 3rd party developers to use all of the hardware CPUs and other assets in parallel. That's the idea; you should be able to max it out by now! Who wants a game that isn't using 100% of the power of the console? Is this some sort of fanboy kool aid test?

While there are always ways of tweaking things to run faster, this simply goes to show how good a job MS has done of providing a fast and easy system to work with.

[Bebedora]

I'd rather take a 'butt ugly' game like RFG than another generic zomg looking graphic masterpiece, because of the interaction of the environment won't be there. If the graphics has to be pushed to last drop of FSAA possible, you have to make a cardboard box invincible.

[mastiffchild]

Yeah, in a way. Thing is I've read how they wanted all their coders to think like architects for this game and have completely real world physics for every destructable in the game. This is a fine idea but there's always a trade off in terms of memory and what can be carried on screen when you make demands like this on console games. My tech knowledge isn't good enough to say where this leaves the PS3 version of RFG(my guess is they'd find a bit more room for maneuver but not a great deal) and it won't look mindblowing on either system primarily because of the way they're used to working on PC which leaves them hamstrung when working with less RAM on a console. Maybe if they were working exclusively for one platform the game could have both looked good AND had the fancy(and being honest the physics they were saying they were chasing isfar more demanding than Farcry2 or TFU)physics but I think this game will be beaten with the fugly stick because of cross platform compromise.
So while I agree that I'd maybe enjoy something fresh that didn't look so shiny as long as it played well I don't know if RFG is that game at all. I doubt another developer coming from another angle would feel the 360 was maxed out this gen(took longer to max the PS2)even if the coding arcitechture isd similar to a middling PC-someone always finds a way of eeking a bit more out and coding can almost always be made more efficient, imo.
A lot of fuss over very little and a misleading header to boot which makes me wonder if somebody felt that there weren't enough folk talking about RFG somewhere and needed to tell us why it wasn't all "ZOMG! Sooo shiny!" into the bargain. I mean, I hope the games great and all but I just think they'd have been better sticking it on PC where they're more happy/confident.

[Bebedora]

I can see your point, when it comes to this specific dev-house, they are probably more comfortable with the PC? I am still more thrilled over more games using physics than graphics in a game. It's a rarely used feature. Wether what console is the most muscle is not so important to me. The PS brand has given me lots of good gaming, and I am not hardcore enough buying all 3 + a PC rig for my needs.

All in all, I hope more physics will be able to end up in games further on, and I know the PS3 is a very capable one bringing this to us.

Happy weekend all.

[rawd]

Shatbox 360 maxxed out?
Surprise, didn't see that one coming

[Blackcanary]

loving the why half of you lot act like you know what your talking about.

Someone states a fact about the graphics of a console and prossing power.
someone says there wrong and states another fact do with it. Question do u guys just copy past things from the net to make it sound like u no what your talking about.

Because for people like me your just just confusing us because we don't know what right or wrong.

Please stop acting like you know what your talking and only say a fact about something if it is a real fact.

Sorry i just hate filling confused lol.

Anyway there's no way they could of maxed out the graphics of the 360 yet look how long it took to max out the graphics of the PS2.

There's still life in that beast yet lol.

[Tone]

Better looking game does not equate to an actual good game. I am sick of all this eye candy and no substance in recent games.

Looking at this game though, it doesnt look that good graphically. I dont care anyway.. give me gameplay 1st anyday.

A lot of you wouldnt know a good game if it hit you right between the eyes! A lot of you are like "ooooh look at the pretty graphics"

Do yourself a favour and take your blinkers off!

[forevercloud3000]

is the game to prove the 360 is not being maxed out. You do know that that game has yet to be seen running off of 360 hardware right? All the videos are from the PC version.

And Heavy Rain looks just as good if not better then Alan Wake. Heavy Rain also doesn't even come close to maxing the PS3's power as I am sure Alan Wake will be very taxing on the 360 hardware.

The point is is that 360 is running out of space for developers to play. When you think of what is available right now, the 360 has less disc space for games to be bigger, less power then the PS3 allowing crazy amount of calculations. The only thing the 360 has to make up for this is it's graphics card, which turns meaningless if graphics cause the system to crash.

[dkgshiz]

like they did with Rage. The RROD box is turning out to be a real pain in the @ss. 360 owners really like to think they have a powerful machine. Yet its just standard computer hardware. My 2 year old PC is more powerful then a 360. Thats really sad. I just really hope they don't gimp the PS3 version of this game, just because the 360 is inferior.

[y0haN]

I think this game doesn't look like it has much after the destruction. If you have to sell your game solely on a technical feat, it isn't going to be that good.

[Bebedora]

I am a believer in what you say, but going on with tech, like physics, we are on the right path....nothing says it wont have a true story to it either.

[shaz73]

Unless this game looks better than GOW2 then its bull and I know it doesn't. I've played this game online and it plays and looks Crap.

[Xlll]

You can't blow apart everything in GOW2 like you can in this game. It takes more to accomplish something like that then the levels in GOW2. You really need to understand things like this before you make those comments.

[maverick1191]

You said

If its true that the 360's memory is maxed out with this game, I would hate to see how bad the BS3 version is going to turn out with its inferior memory and far weaker processor/GPU combo.

it will probs look the same and if the ps3 as inferior memory and far weaker processor/GPU combo what about killzone 2 and uncharted 2 that just sh!ts on all xbox games go have fun waiting for a match in Gears

[Solotov]

Reminds me when Hideo Kojima (refering to Metal Gear Sold 4) said, “we pushed the PS3 to its limit.”

[devilhunterx]

source?

[kwyjibo]

Ignore the asinine headline (it's Kotaku), but I think Solotov is referring to a direct Kojima quote from Edge magazine.

http://kotaku.com/381412/ko...

[Socomer 1979]

how sad. How very sad.

360 has run its course.

Put some handles on that box. Its time to go.

[Socomer 1979]

its about everything that's going on at the same time.
That includes artificial intelligence, physics, gameplay & enviorment properties.
and so much more.

Its a trade-off. You should know that about gears2. Not too much variety in that game.
very blocky & heavy.

Which is why resistance 2 is such a technical marvel. Bunjie was actually my favorite programmers before insomniac filled that spot. Think about it.
Go outside & play a game of basketball. Some of you need fresh air. Trust me, the graphics are nice outside.

[mynd]

Volition reckons it needed extra help to get the PS3 version of Red Faction: Guerilla up to muster with the 360 version.
"One little change and you’re out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there’s less memory to work with. We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We’ve been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."
http://www.videogaming247.c...

They are using the same line for both versions.

OMG the PS3 is maxxed out already!!

[kwyjibo]

Can't wait to hear about how they maxed out the PC next.

[SixAmpFuze]

holy mush mouth they maxed out the ps3 the xbox 360 wowthis game must be the uber of uber .its gonna suck theres only so much fun in breaking walls

[mynd]

:) Yeah PR talk is cheap.
Still it's fuel for the mass's to continue the "war".

[thegood33]

Well, the 360 IS entering its fourth year. All consoles start to slow down at around this time.

That's why a new system will come out that will be about five times faster then the ps3 in a couple years. The thing with the PS3 is that it isn't that much noticably better to the average consumer. I still don't think anything that is out for the ps3 looks much better then GOW or even fable.

That's the way it works fella's.

[Balanced Gamer]

lol 256mb of the ps3 is xdr so thats 2.5ghz looooool
its all to do with what the cpu and gpu can access...xbox360 has that edram ram thats used for high bandwidth for the gpu and main ram...
both companies have decided different routes to get fast ram to the system.
i would say that they are both very equal in general power, just better at certain things... like xbox360 have a customer gpu with the daughter and main dies...and the cell being used to do some of the effects...
the xbox360 is a powerhouse for things like high res texturing,and things like parallax mapping etc..
the xbox360 can be maxed out easily at the moment,but im sure once the game have mandatory hard-drive use,you will see more available optimizing...and with ps3 having bigger disks will be much better for content driven games...
its def a different way of doing things, i mean if you looked at Killzone it follows the Sony way of working on the faces,and using photo type wallpapering to add realism..ive seen a bump-mapped floor,and the rest is a wallpaper over a polygon...and loads of effects to add realism...which is a great way to make everything look realistic.....
where Microsoft are still in the pc mentality of and more complicated textures and not much is really considered with the look of the game or the faces.
i like sonys way more, but i commend xbox360's gpu shader strengths..

[Bebedora]

your two first liner did make you like a monkey

[xg-ei8ht]

Fable ROFL.

Gears 2 looks ok, But it is overrated. People think it's a texture beast when infact it's all done through bumpmapping, normal mapping etc.

Look at the armour, the floor. Heavy textured, nope.

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/d...

I do think the 360 is still a capable machine, but i haven't seen anything better then gears 1&2 and that is strange.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/dor/o...

[mynd]

Errh that's what they mean, that's all done through extensive use of bump maps normal maps etc, they are all textures.

[Balanced Gamer]

ive never seen a whole environment with as much mapping as kameo and pdz0
if you look at both of the gears and unchartered, the floor and other objects suffer.. its just that naughty dog are better at fake bump-mapping and visual trickery..

[xg-ei8ht]

i do love Parallax mapping

with

http://www.irrlicht3d.org/i...

without

http://www.irrlicht3d.org/i...

[XDF]

First of all games are meant to be fun. L4D is one of the best game of the year and the most fun. Its graphics is OK and look good enough to me. A game like Resitance also have avg. graphics but the AI and fun factor is no where close to L4D.

Sega Saturn was suppose to have destroy the PS1 back in the days but with a higher priced, less games and less marketing, and a lesser user base, a great first party can only take you so far.

Haha, for the fanboys that is comparing PG4 to GT5, of course GT5 will look better, it only take what like a 100 years to make and it might not even be out till 2010. So have fun again with another victory post for the PS3.

[Bebedora]

I do like interaction and believeable environments. That is my take on this debate.

Even Super Mario beats most games done to this day

[redki]

the ps3 can make great physics but that dsnt mean that it will also have the ai to make the game decent cause it only has one general purpose cpu !!!! also they dnt need that much physics in the game and the memory isnt there to support a massive game with all that physical computation crunching power!!!!! well the truth is the ps3 is soo unbalanced and wat ever strengths it has dsnt make up for its weakness!!

[Bebedora]

Shaddup..ai vs physics vs graphics is the same math...get it?

[Matpan]

Ahh I guess it comes down to the approacha developer gives to the programming for its game...

Lets not get hasty at judging... bare in mind how poor did PS3 performed on some games when 360 did much better. I guess some programming is better oriented for the cell while other will do better with 360s architechture...

[PS360HELL-YEAH]

LOL Enjoyed 1 Red Fraction , 2 was very dissapponting lets see how this one goes. Not really got high hope with Saints Row 2 been pants.

[xlg]

N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360 N4G IS BIAS AGAINST XBOX360

[terrandragon]

Only the great devs can actually maximize the Xbox 360's limits, such as Gears of War 2, and many others I don't know the names of. :)

[terrandragon]

Sergeant Osiris SUCKS! There, I said it. All of you were thinking that.

[Egzekutor]

No wonder.. whats 360 got inside was already used 2 years before..
A next generation for me is to come out with something totally new and powerfull..

Dont even compare Americans to Japanesse people. Most of the electronics are developed by Japanesse people, they are the brains at it.

Thats why I bought PS3. Most of my friends they have a 360. But I looked at everything before buying a console, i asked myself which console will last longer and provide better gaming experience..

Yea the PS3 version will probably suffer frame rate ups and downs, but no worries, Im waiting for exclusives from SONY such as Killzone 2, Heavy Rain, Gran Turismo 5 3D ;D and God of War 3. Those are the killers.

[Ldubbz]

And watch a bunch of non-programmers argue over stuff they only have heard about. Classic.

What makes this especially funny is Gears 2 is arguably the best looking console game yet, and it only came out in November. Games have not only looked great on the 360 from the start (COD 2, Fight Night), but have continued to look better.

The other thing is Im not sure what people expect from either the 360 or PS3, but NEITHER will ever be able to run say Crysis at even close to full tilt. Memory constraints alone on both systems would never allow it.

I know the PS3 hopeful out there keep thinking that the PS3 is some sort of magical box that programmers have yet to 'truly discover', and it will somehow sport the best looking graphics ever seen, but thats just wishful thinking. No matter how u slice it, both the the 360 and PS3 are IN-ORDER processors, inferior to PC processors that are OUT-OF-ORDER (btw, the Xbox 1 was actually Out-of-order), and sport much weaker GPU's (especially the PS3) and less memory (again, especially the PS3 with its non-unified memory pool).