DICE fails to quell Star Wars Battlefront 2 controversy in reddit AMA

Eurogamer: DICE's much-anticipated, and impressively civil, Reddit AMA (that's Ask Me Anything, sort of like a Q&A) for the controversial Star Wars Battlefront 2 has now occurred. Unsurprisingly, it wasn't the bringer of too many revelations.

[UltraNova]

"Brannvall did at least make one promise, "We were incredibly saddened by the negative response from you, the community on reddit about the game.

"In fact, we hated it, we truly did, because we want to make a game that you love. We've made a really cool, fun and beautiful game but it was overshadowed by issues with the progression system. We will fix this."

Are you, will you Dice/EA?

[-Foxtrot]

Course they aren't

The whole AMA was basically "We might add new things and fix our system in the future so buy our game and...trust us"

You know it's funny they'll say for the next game they'll do that they've learned from past mistakes, make a load of promises how they've changed then in the end the next games online will still be riddled with MTs, Loot boxes and P2W features.

[Eonjay]

Now we know why they got rid of Visceral and Amy's Star Wars game. It wasn't designed to gut the hell out of consumers. EA saw that it only satisfied consumers and didn't generate a windfall income stream for the 'investors' therefore they got rid of it. The choose not to develop for the Switch because they can't figure out how to rape those guys yet. EA is a cancer.

[fiveby9]

I imagine many at DICE want to make a Star Wars game everyone wants. But EA's suits are not Star Wars fans. They see Star Wars as a guaranteed money making tool only. They will use the backdrop of Star Wars to advance their destructive GaaS business model. Sadly, many will fall victim to their plans. But I am glad to see many core gamers pushing back. But voices are not enough.

The loudest voice is the silence of your wallet! EA is listening alright. They should hear the sound of silence.

[Imalwaysright]

Eonjay

That was pretty evident in the statement that was made by EA when they backstabbed Visceral.

"It has become clear that to deliver an experience that players will want to come back to and enjoy for a long time to come, we needed to pivot the design"

In other words gaas heavy on MTs/loot box p2w crapola.

[Jinger]

So fox... just hypothetically here.

If they get rid of the star cards in those paid lootboxes and only have cosmetic stuff. Then they also make the only way to collect star cards by unlocking specific achievements or by using the scrap you can get.

Will that satisfy you and you will buy the game? Or will your mentality still be "too late"? Further proving there is no reason for them to change anything for the complainers?

[bloop]

@jinger: If EA literally just announced they were actually going to do that and did overhaul the progression and unlocks to something more realistic, removed loot boxes and dropped the f2p/pay to win model completely, I'd be going straight down to GameStop in the morning to buy. This was one of my most anticipated games this year, but I won't touch it with a barge pole unless EA do something drastic.

[gamerz]

@fiveby9
You are wrong about EA suit's not being Star Wars fans. Any one of them can quote the exact $ each movie earned in the theatre, physical release, how much in merchandise, which demographics spend the most, and in each region. They are huge fans, just in a different way than us.

[yomfweeee]

I actually believe him when he says they hate it (probably the devs and community managers), but corporate makes the decision.

[UltraNova]

They hate the fact that they might lose some money over this, dont fool yourself its EA. And btw the days where a bunch of guys sat down and made a game they wanted the world to play and love as much as they did are long gone. Try indies, instead.

[uth11]

This. They listened to the community on a number of things from the last Battlefront. . Got rid of the controversial expensive season pass.

But that lost season pass revenue will be made up for in other ways, its mandated from above, not Dice's decision.

If they drop loot crates, they will be replaced with something else that gamers will hate just as much

[GNCFLYER]

I believe him. Dice is an incredible dev. My question is did they do it or was it mandated by EA?

Serious question because I don't know the details between. Publisher and developer.

Thinking about it and knowing EA it had to be one of the requirements. So that statement he made, he probably doesn't have the authority to do that without EA telling them.

[The_KELRaTH]

But it's like they listen with blinkered ears :)

The season passes in themselves aren't the issue for me:
it's the fact a dozen or so maps cost as much as the main game with similar amount of maps at launch
Season Passes rarely get discounted in the same level as the game
Season passes are locked behind a digital only format so not resalable 2nd hand.
And these days the main games are getting less and less maps ie. Cod WW2 has only 9 rather than 16 - that's not far off half a season pass!

[fiveby9]

It's EA who paid for the rights to use the Star Wars brand from Disney. Not DICE. DICE is merely the mechanism to produce the product. So sure DICE is complicit but probably only insofar as they have to go along to get along. Did anyone really expect DICE staff to step out of line in the AMA? They can't do that.

Reject EA's business model but not buying this game. Unfortunately, DICE gets caught in the crossfire. But such is life.

[Kiknyonutz]

I believe him but I don't believe they'll be able to fix it in time to save the community

[rainslacker]

I think given the number of downvotes, and utter domination the topic is getting in the media leading up to release has more to do with EA's concern over the issue at the moment. I doubt the devs are sitting there rubbing their hands together evily, but as developers, they will support the product and the company which financed it. It's what expected of them.

In any case, EA wants the sh*tstorm to stop, and the amount of negative attention they're getting, coupled with what is a extremely impressive number of people who aren't happy with EA showing up on reddit alone, not to mention everywhere else, including their own twitter accounts, they probably think that the backlash is going to severely negatively affect the sales of the game.

While the game will probably sell extremely well compared to a lot of games, I have no doubt that EA has goals set by Disney on how many copies of the game must sell, or they run the risk of having their license pulled. That would be typical of something like this. They had the same thing with the NFL for the longest time, and probably still do if I had to guess. While the game will probably sell better than a lot of other games will, which may deserve it more really, losing a significant number of sales is still not good.

Losing out on what could be half a million is sales would take a huge number of loot box sales to make up that revenue, and that's the real world that EA is now living in. Despite there being plenty of people willing to spend money, they're losing maybe 1/2 million potential MT buyers, and 30 million in revenue. That's a lot of casuals and impatiant people when you consider most probably only spend $5-10 here or there.

[spicelicka]

i do feel bad for everyone on that team who isn't involved in the MT decision making. They must have worked so passionately on their respective areas and now all that effort is overshadowed by the fuckery of EA.

[PapaBop]

Honestly, in a sense they were most likely being sincere. I mean think about it, you're one of the most talented, most respected and most successful online MP developers in the world, you pour your heart and soul into a Star Wars project only to have that work get completely overshadowed by the suits upstairs.

They won't fix it though, they can't. Nobody at Dice has the power to change this, it must be a pretty shitty position for them to be in really and the people responsible are more than happy to throw them to wolves in AMAs like that.

[fiveby9]

Sincere? Maybe but also some hypocrites too. EA probably just said, "come up with some MT systems proposals which we can review and decide upon". So off goes DICE happily designing exactly what they know gamers won't like. I'm sure they'll happily have their hands out for the bonuses EA bestows if it is successful. So let's not assume some at DICE are not part of the problem.

[ziggurcat]

if they truly hated it, they wouldn't have included it in their game.

[subtenko]

they will screw you over on the next game. wouldnt be surprised if this was all planned and they get your money and then betray you all again like the goldfish people are nowadays

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Good now EA just remove lootboxes and or MT P2W BS please

[rpvenom]

they're not going to do anything different. this is empty promises and damage control.

"just go on those forums and say we are looking into it and will make changes to better our game. okay moving on, now that that's done, how do we make more money ...."

[rpvenom]

guys.. let us put aside our console differences and call a truce to stand together and fight this one evil.. Microtransactions.. #consoletruce #gamersagainstMTs #donotbuyEAgames

[bigmalky]

But... And here's the kicker... Microsoft like this idea. Don't forget the words of Phil Spencer about how Games as a Service is the future of Microsoft.

Star Wars Battlefront is the epitome of GAAS.

Please people, see this for what it is. Not a dig at MS from a fanboy, but a warning of the way the industry is moving. You can hold a boycott on a game, but if you have invested yourself as a loyal console fan, you are going to see much, much more of this on an Xbox branded one.

[DeadSilence]

In not buying anything EA other than Respawn tittles now because Respawn means quality.

[jrshankill]

Thought you said Titties there

[Pantz]

u said titties

[UltraNova]

Respawning titties?? Where do I sign?

[Ittoittosai]

You the respawn EA just bought? It will mean no more quality than any other dev EA has bought.

[-Foxtrot]

Respawn will not be the same...they might JUST get through the game with small "changes" to the way they work but give it a few more years after and they'll be a shell of their former self

[Knightofelemia]

Respawn have to listen to what EA says since EA does own them if not Respawn could get shut down like other studios EA bought pver the years.

[trooper_]

LMAO @ Ultra Nova.

[Ittoittosai]

"Requests from AMA participants to hear DICE's internal averages were sadly ignored - particularly disappointing given that the highest-rated question throughout the AMA had been, "In the numbers you all have run, how many hours would it take the average user to unlock all items available at release without spending additional money?"

Of course they arent going to tell you bcause my guess is everyone on reddit who has done the math is pretty close and they will say its over estimated if its even off by 2hrs but they are going to tell you that.

"Other key questions that were left unaddressed included inquiries around whether EA would lower the number of microtransactions in the game, or why the company had opted for loot boxes that affected gameplay, rather than being purely cosmetic."

No they wont. They optes for loot boxes that effect game play because they want to see if we will accept it and it will bring an ass ton of money if we do, they are doing the same thing they always do "will the market lets us get away with this?" And if we do its game over for gaming.

[Gamist2dot0]

If their MT/loot system becomes a success, it won't be long before we see loots box prices increase. Soon we'll see the cost of a loot box the same as a console and it won't stop there - smh.

[Ittoittosai]

Keep making fun all you like its got this bad because people didnt listen when it was cosmetic stuff only.

[RegorL]

What if they have designed a system were you are not expected to unlock everything?
I mean you can not equip everything at once anyway...

[bigmalky]

Really?

Jesus.

[Kiknyonutz]

There is almost nothing they can do at this point. The P2W and progression system is bringing in money they're depending on to fund the game. They've backed themselves so far in a corner that no AMA will turn things around.

[bloop]

There is something they can do. Drop the loot boxes altogether and overhaul the progression system. And they're certainly not "depending" on mt's to fund the game. EA have enough money as it is and Star Wars is one of the biggest money making franchises of all time. There's absolutely no reason to have these mt's in the game other than corporate greed. Without any of this nonsense the game would have sold enough to fund it and still line their pockets.

[xxjabberxx]

Bloop the game has been finished for awhile now. The BETA was to test the waters and see how much they can bend you over and make you spell R.U.N. Once you feel it they’ll start to dial down.

[rainslacker]

Lets consider the numbers here. SW:BF could easily sell 10 million copies this year alone. Lets assume the publisher pulls in $30 per copy sold....which is pretty reasonable.

That's 300 million in pure revenue. Not including MT.

This game probably had a budget of around $50 million(on the high end), and had a marketing budget fronted by Sony, so no big expense to EA.

But lets say for giggles, that the marketing budget and dev budget was somehow around $100 million. That still means that EA is pulling in a profit of $200 million dollars.

If they can't fund the game with a pretty much $200 million dollar profit for this year alone, not to mention long term revenues as more copies sell, as well as revenue that may come from reasonable MT/DLC, then they are just doing a piss poor job at funding games. For the most part, there isn't a developer or publisher out there who wouldn't be happy with that return. The problem is, they want more of a return, and will do whatever they can to maximize that return.

Even if they have to give 1/3 of that money back to DIsney....a pretty common percentage to the license holder, they'd still be pulling in a pretty good return.

While i have nothing against a company trying to maximize a return on their investment, because that's expected of them, I do take issue when they do it in a way that negatively affects the game itself, and is done so in a way that alienates the consumers.

The worst part of it is EA's overall attitude towards issues like this. It's not their first time under fire for similar things. They always act like it's necessary. Like they're doing the player base a favor. Like they have to do it because otherwise they will go bankrupt. In the meantime, EA is the most successful publisher in the world....mostly because they have a firm grip on very popular franchises like FIFA, NFL, and Star Wars.

[OoglyBoogly]

I just don't understand, with the commercial failure that Battlefront 1 was, how they let Battlefront II get so jacked up.

Like, you'd think after how bad the first one did that they could, JUST ONCE, not being suuuper greedy and just give gamers what they want. Just one time.

Instead they decide to launch the second game in a poorer state than the first one! Makes no sense.

[Sgt_Slaughter]

Battlefront I unfortunately sold very well, over 13 million copies total.

[OoglyBoogly]

Well I know it sold well, but that doesn't necessarily correlate with how it was perceived by the public.

Over all, past the graphics, most people didn't really care for the game that much and it still had a lack of stuff to do.

[rainslacker]

It was a pretty big commercial success. I think you meant it was poorly received by the public, which is a completely different thing.

[xxjabberxx]

Good thing I wasn’t one of those dumb 13 million. As soon as I heard EA and season passes priced at a cost of a full game I said I’ll wait and see how much content is in the game before I waste my hard earn money.

[Jinger]

Battlefront 1 sold pretty damn well and Im' expecting Battlefront 2 to sell even better, it will be interesting to see if this backlash has reached the casual market.

[xxjabberxx]

Here’s how, they didn’t hit the 🎯 expected with BF1 and are now try to hit 🎯 by making it up with BF2.

[kayoss]

Remember those days where you have to do something special in the game to unlock secret characters or unlocked characters? Now, in order to unlock character you have to swipe your credit card. This is why i hate DLC and microtransactions. Instead making the best game they can, their priority is, "how can we make more money?". I understand that games are getting more expensive to make, but i rather developer increase the price of a game instead of implementing crap like this.

[Chaosdreams]

Games have gotten more expensive but the profits have also skyrocketed and broke records (it varies of course, but those who we would expect to request more money from, generally end up charging less - putting the entire 'profit crisis' into perspective).

DLC was and can be a fantastic prospect, if it's priced properly, not torn from the base game and adds a lot of additional longevity (like an expansion) to the game. The problem is that just about hardly no one, does that. They've ruined DLC to the point they've dropped it for a quicker, more intrusive platform. MT's.

Games have gone up in price (Depending where you live) and it doesn't match inflation. Canadians pay $20 more for the base game regardless of how the dollar is performing - so for us up North, the pricing structure is even more aggravating.

I do remember the days of unlocking content. It felt like an actual achievement. Now there's hardly any form of emotion when I unlock something. It's just there.

[kayoss]

i agree with you. But the majority of the time the DLC are torn from the base game. DLC should be an after thought when developing a game.
I also agree that profits have skyrocketed. But for games like the Last of us, uncharted, etc... do really well but they pale in comparison to games like call of duty, Destiny, battlefield, madden, etc. But for games like last of us, uncharted, DLC is an after thought. Before call of duty and Destiny is even released, there are already DLC in place.

[Jinger]

@Kayoss

I'd just like to point out that at no point in this game will you have to swipe your credit card to get anything. No items, cards, hero's etc are locked behind a paywall. Everything is obtainable by simply playing the game. Hell, I got Vader from just playing the EA Access trial, it took me less than 10 hours to get Vader. 10 hours is nothing in a big MP game like this.

[kayoss]

@jinger
I was not talking about battlefront specifically. It was more general of what the gaming industry have become. Everything is more about how can we make more money with DLC or Microtransactions?
Shouldnt they think about DLC and Microaction after the full game have been released?
Thats what irks me.

[xxjabberxx]

Imagine if the remake of ratchet and clank had loot boxes and instead of collecting Holo cards to unlock the Ryno you had to buy all 9. Eff that $#!t.

[Jinger]

What if it had both options though? Would it have changed the way you have played?

[Chaos_Order]

The games are only expensive to produce because the developers/publishers choose to make them expensive. As far as I'm aware I don't remember asking devs to spend such inordinate amounts, and most of my favourite games of the current and previous gen are a far cry from the massive budget AAA juggernauts. Lest we forget Minecraft became the 2nd best selling game OF ALL TIME (after Tetris) on development budget of peanuts? And just look at the popularity of games like PUBG and FNAF. Heck, Demon's Souls was made on a tight budget by a barely known developer at the time, but started a revolution among RPG fans. "But gamers only want the best graphics these days! We need to spend many millions!" Hilarious.

[kayoss]

True, but if you look at the trend of gaming. With the advancement of hardware comes demand to get as much as possible from these hardware. in addition, gamers want better games with better graphic. You can see by all the comment on N4G people gets so worked up comparing graphics. Developers are trying to meet these demands and this is what driving up cost.

[jronj]

SWBF2 is really fun! I haven't spent any money and I am always in the top 3 (Galactic Assault) so either not many people are "paying to win" or these extra bonuses aren't very effective.
I do hate this convoluted progression system though which was obviously design to get people to buy upgrades with really money.

[Jinger]

I agree with you. Haven't spent a dime and have still been winning matches and doing very well. No one in the match seems like they have any unfair advantage at all. The star cards do give a slight edge, but its not going to make you an unstoppable killing machine where you are going to go on a 50-0 kill streak.

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Watch bobba fett he's too broke

[Jinger]

@XiN

I have played a few hero rounds with him in it and he seems fine

[FITSniper]

1) I have high confidence that DICE is sincere when they say that they hate the negative feedback. Especially on something we all want to (should) believe they didn't choose to do.

2) I'm waiting and seeing what updates are made to address the issue and what the real realistic timeframe is to unlock everything post-launch.

3) They said that cosmetic loot crates are coming.

[DillyDilly]

They only have one option & that is make everything unlockable like a normal game that is it that is the only thing they can do

[DillyDilly]

Removing the current system altogether is the only way to remedy this

[xxjabberxx]

Starting all over is the only way.

[DillyDilly]

Battlefront 3 announced next year for 2020

[DillyDilly]

The problem is people will buy it for the campaign. The servers will be a ghost town & EA will not make money regardless after the initial purchase

[Vectrexer]

The only way they will fix it, the only way other developers will follow suit is by hitting them where it hurts it really hurts their wallets.

[xxjabberxx]

Nope they made $1.6 Billion with a capital B Las year off Mts they’re not giving up that easy.

[Vectrexer]

Last year they didn't have the most downvotes in Reddit it history there wasn't the outcry there is now I guarantee you their cells are going to take a huge hit on this game.
Last year was then this is now.

[andrewsquall]

Ask me anything, oh, except that. That will be ignored.

[InTheZoneAC]

They've guaranteed a used game sale from me, they're not getting a dime from me. Whatever positive changes they make will determine if I buy SWBF3 new or used. I haven't bought a disc since 2010, I will be doing so when GameStop gets a used copy, most likely within 12 hours of release. Not to mention I won't even buy some of their other new or upcoming games because of this.

[moomoo319]

People should stop with the misconception that EA/publishers force the implementation of these P2W mechanics. By all accounts this last week, it is becoming pretty clear that developers are just as culpable and often the drivers of these mechanics. Just one example, i listened to the former head of Sony San Diego on a podcast yesterday, as lead designer he was actually the main proponent of introducing MTs in MLB the show, not sony corporate. Stop skirting responsible from the people who actually DESIGNED the game and this awful progression system, they deserve criticism just the same.

[IanTH]

It's true, but on the flip side when you get to the head of the development company you are also as close as you can get to the publisher. That's who that person has to answer to, and then under them are hundreds of developers who just want to make a great game. I still think it is fair to say developers - that being, those who actually code the game - don't want to ruin their game or upset players by adding in consumer-unfriendly practices.

Now, those whose job it is making financial/business decisions? Wherever they are in the chain, publisher or development wise, we can pretty much guarantee that's where the insidious decisions are made.

[moomoo319]

EA no doubt said look for opportunities to monetize, and the devs at DICE took that and made one of the worst freemium P2W progression systems ive ever seen. Even without real money involved, the progression system is simply awful lol no corporate guy designed that shit. Think its the devs on this one really

[xsta1ker]

this practice needs to be removed from all game developers... what happened to true exploration of games grinding to locate the Rarest items that made gaming great the greedy companies like ea are ruining gaming for the almighty dollar.

[blanka4545]

star wars force unleashed all the way! who cares for battle crap 2!

[keki]

the most downvoted on reddit lol

[kevinsheeks]

let's call it what it is since these games mainly market to kids . . it's child gambling creating young naive addicts who aren't aware of their own choices.

I'm just doing what corporations do putting tittles to things to get a certain response ala whales the only difference being my title leans more towards reality.

[MunchMiller00]

Wow. EA even fails at damage control. That's a serious accomplishment......... should be an achievement.

[IanTH]

Let's all pitch in for a gold trophy and send it to them to commemorate this momentous occasion. Or perhaps, given the degree of talent it took to drop the ball that hard, we can even style it after a Platinum trophy.

And perhaps in the future when they're building a new game, as the shame trophy stares back at them, they'll remember their players aren't just wallets & maybe...just maybe, think a little harder about their design decisions.

[2cents]

"We've seen the speculation about how long it takes players to earn things - but our averages based on the Play First trial are much faster than what's out there, But as more players come in, that could change."

Which i read as 'But as more money comes in from whales, that could change.'

There, fixed it for you EA.

[Artemidorus]

Maybe the people who made the game but the rest pushed for this rip off scheme.

[Takwin]

I'm done with EA forever. They will never change. They are a cancer on the online video gaming community, community, community.

[jacksmith56]

screw you EA , BOYCOTT for the good of the industry

[ClanPsi1]

I like this line from DICE dev d_FireWall: "I play games with loot boxes and games without. I think when these features are at their best, they can be fun and exciting...."

Yeah, I'm sure gambling is super fun and exciting if you're a gambling addict, but that needs to stay in Vegas where it belongs.

[ChickenOfTheCaveMan]

I kind of feel with this kind of controversy, the publisher has one shot and they blew it on the 75% bs, oh well.

[DillyDilly]

I would not trust anyone from EA past, present or current to dog sit as they were stupid enough to work with EA

[Parasyte]

EA and DICE could not have screwed this up any worse if they tried.

[Mithan]

They saved me $90. Awesome.

[mrdeli]

Gamers listen to me now ! I am a 43 year old man. I have four kids. I play video games mostly at night when everyone is sleeping. I have an OLED tv I bought just for gaming. I was also there when Dark Forces came out. I played, Dark Forces II (I LOVED IT) and believe me - all the rest. The games lost the plot after a while. I am SO STOKED there is a single player campaign. It ties into Shattered Empire - which I read the comics. I am so excited for this game ! I am in Las Vegas on business and when I get home I am going to hella play the single player campaign. Cant people be happy with the game at large and stop shitting on the micro-transactions ?

[stefd75]

I am just the same as you more or less, I'm 42, a gamer and a big SW fan and dont normally give a crap about loot boxes and that kind of stuff but this is one of those times where even I have had enough of how EA are treating the gamers. I want to play as Luke or Vader but not happy of the grind / time i have to put in to get them. Trust me when you get back and play online you will get pissed off with it. I thought like you and I just wanted to play and have fun however EA took the fun out of it. I wont get it until EA sort it out or i will get it 2nd hand so they dont get my money. If we dont stand up to this then they will not stop it. I think if all the gamers stand up then in time they will listen. The gamers and fans have the power, we can make or break the sales of games. We should not be worried about the big game companies, they should be worried about us, ...."Today we celebrate our Independence Day!" ( i think that last bit was a bit too much. :)

[mrdeli]

EA's big announcement seems to concede that they really screwed this up. I hope the single player campaign satisfies and perhaps they add additional single player. I will play some multiplayer too to get the flavour. In my heart I long for for more Dark Forces-styled games which is a story, a narrative, and lots of areas to shoot stormtroopers or rebels or whatever.

[Cmoney007]

We are finally seeing many people taking a stand. It is about dang time. This is a big problem, and I would like to believe that EA and DICE will do something about it. But it is hard for me to believe that.

[MrPerfect813]

Between this and Mass effect Andromeda, EA really pisses me off

[worldwidegaming]

I can only sum this up to "You only kiss my cheek to finger my..." that trick only works once on a smart person.

[DJ]

They're removing it for now, but also admitted that the microtransactions will return, most likely in time for Christmas season and lots of unsuspecting parents buying the game for their kids.

[tigertron]

See if the devs/EA really wanted to make a great game they would have given us all the features that the original BF2 had.

[Diffraction_Fos]

Publishers are conniving, greedy bastards. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.

Do people really think these gameplay-affecting loot boxes came out of nowhere? It all started because gamers accepted "cosmetic" micro-transactions. "Oh its no harm. It doesn't have any impact on gameplay". That gave publishers(and developers because they're not entirely innocent either) the incentive to slowly push the boundary towards things like what we're seeing now.

So if you're a gamer who has been okay or supportive of any form of micro-transactions in the past, then - FUCK YOU. This is all your fault. You encouraged them to increase the presence of MTs in games. You basically gave them the green light to do pull these kinds of shit. So its not the greedy publishers who should shoulder the most blame. It should be gamers like you.

[MajorLazer]

EA are actual scum